Oh dear. It'll all end in tears.

I think that one problem is is that the new videos have taken a lot of the mystery out of SOW. We've been able to see what it's really going to look like so half way threw the week after updates things tend to get boring faster and everyone is pretty much all talked out so new topics pop up.

here I see some run the risk of taking themselves too seriously...

Block Posts from users you dont care for...

Search replies by name (Oleg Luthier) for answers to specific queries

Stop using this kind of format as a police state / slagging wall
some comments here are more insulting than anything found in the update thread

More Vigorous Moderation indeed
Ban Violators...like its a felony to spout or difficult to 'ignore'

Where IS This Fridays' Update?????
Ilya - was the project canceled because of this thread? hahah

It would be nice if people were limited to 1 or 2 posts. It would make them think a bit harder before posting.
(myself included;-)

Thanks, it won't hurt people to think for a moment before they post.

Hopefully this means Oleg and others will find it easier to pick out the questions from the comments/bickering.
Maybe people could tag direct questions with an *asterisk to make it easier?

+1 on Yes! More moderation - less noise.


/Daniel

I just cant imagine having to go threw that horrible nightmare. Oh what a horrible life Oleg must have having to read threw 'that rubbish'.

I like this thread, it's funny. What you're really saying is "moderators, please moderate."

All you need is a little bit of organisation. Have an update thread. Any questions or modelling errors not relevant to that specific update get deleted and those that posted can put them elsewhere.

If you want, make sure that any questions posed have to be approved before they can viewed.

Simples

Hood

This subject is really a double edged sword. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

A forum is a place where people trade thoughts, ideas, concerns and opinions. As long as these posts are not vulgar or blatently break forum rules, they are fine.

It may be a tough pill for some to swallow, but the easiest way is to simply ignore "that guy" that gets under your skin with every post.

Asking a moderator to choose what is a valid concern in a post and what is not is just ridiculously impossible. Ten different moderators could have ten different opinions on what is valid and what is not. Especially when you consider the vast diversity of people on this forum from all over the world.

My 2 cents!

actually its 85 sqdn

Why are you lot still discussing this? Nearmiss has spoken.

I've probably missed it, but can I check how this will be communicated to the forum? I'd suggest that admin start the Update thread, with a post about the new rule, telling no one to reply to the post until Oleg has posted (/made 2 posts).

It would be a shame if the thread is going well, then on the 4th page someone says how great it is that there's been no off topic chat, and they're suddenly banned for a week (because they haven't read this thread).

Some of the best moderated forums i've ever frequented used the "split topic" method, with bans reserved for personal attacks and rude behaviour. Whenever people went off topic in a thread where it was critical to maintain on-topic-ness, a mod would just cut the offending posts or parts of a post and paste them into a new thread made for just that purpose, with an easy to identify name. In our case, this would be "xx-yy-2010 Friday update pruned and off-topic posting".

People can still ramble on about whatever they want if they can't contain themselves, but it's easy for those not interested to just side-step it and focus on the main theme.

In any case, this new rule is only for the update threads. In fact, it was very recently that it was announced the rest of the forum would be open to more off-topic discussions in an effort to keep a healthy exchange going at all times, so it's not like we're being stiffled here. After all, we are the ones asking for a tighter grip on the update threads.

I still wouldn't do it this way (outright bans) but then i'm not the one who has to spend time enforcing the new rules and since we have the rest of the forum open to a wide variety of other subjects, it's all good and fine by me.

However, i totally agree with you that this had to be communicated in a clear fashion. Just how much straying from the screenshot is going to be allowed is something everyone needs to be made aware of before they start reading and posting in the update thread.

For example, if someone posts references to back up their claim that a cockpit gauge needs a correction, is this on topic or not? Or what if someone posts historical references that pertain to tactics and employment of certain weapon systems (for example "this kind of flak gunner emplacement only had one gun of type X and not two")? Same for purely technical matters that pertain to the accuracy of 3d models, etc. Finally, posting the usual praise can pretty repetitive ("thanks for the update","awesome work, keep it up" etc), is this going to be off limits with the thread focusing exclusively on discussing the update's content, or not?

I'm all for imposing some limits on the update threads, it's just that they need to be clearly communicated so people know what to expect.

Somebody that hasn't got time for moderating shouldn't be a moderator at all. There's nothing worse than a lazy mod who isn't interested in reason and just hits ban because they can. Those types usually have people leave in droves.

"Off with their heads"
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/u.../07/alice2.jpg

nearmiss

I believe that the problem has more to do with the number of posts some people make in the up-date thread. Same people each week, 70, 80, 90. posts (from each of them) in the thread. That's the clutter...I don't think you should ban someone if he strays a bit off topic. Give this a little thought:grin:

What if all the posts are relevent? In any sense, such numbers of postings can just be a result of the thread going O/T, and when the thread stays on topic this never happens.

Yes philip, you are one of those people that I mentioned or was referring to. I believe that you mean well, and do bring a bit to the table. But I must tell you though, that you post so often, that I just skip over your posts.:-P

I wasn't refuting that, but then again most of those posts were in response to people arguing against my opinion. My point is that, looking at this weeks topic, I only posted a few times and all my posts were related to the update. The idea was to stay on topic, and because no-one started any arguments it stayed that way.
The past is behind us, now. We should look to the future ;)

Well, 48 hours after I made this thread the percentage of people expressing their wish for more moderation was already at 74%. That is a large majority, and ever since it has stayed at around 70%. It can't be made any clearer that many people are frustrated with the way most update threads turn. It took another update thread going down the drain for the mods to realize the issue was real and serious for many here. I am happy they take actions now.

Having been moderator and admin on other forums in the past I would recommend first and forall that mods make themselves easier to indentify. There should be something in their avatar or signature. Personally I just know Nearmiss for example. If there is another one I have failed to recognize him/her. That is already a problem.

Second, people should be warned progressively and clearly visible in their own posts with fat red moderator letters if needed. Then, in steps, 3 days "in the box", 1 week, one month, and finally permanent ban. Sentences like "that terrain looks like painted by a child with watercolors" for example is enough for a first 3 days in the box. That is my personal opinion.

Third, I think we need more moderators. This forum is very active and fast paced by times.
No way 1-2 mods can make the job which is needed. I think it needs at least 4, better 5, best in different time zones, so there is a chance there is always someone around.

Therein lies the primary problem, IMO. Good idea. I'd nominate Oleg himself if he had the time.

I always find it ridiculous that aggravating posters aren't banned for several weeks.
I'm sure that no-one really would care if such a small penalty was dealt out.
Ban me if you disagree!! I really couldn't care any less.

I'll be back in a few weeks if I feel like it.

Really; just put a lock on anyone who is getting away from the topic.

Please!

...


KOM.Nausicaa, I really like to know what's your personal opinion and your proposal ban for the following typical rude, insulting The Community and most racist posting I've ever seen on a simulation forum.




http://www.checksix-forums.com/showp...&postcount=980


Edit : Spelling
...

lol

OT posts are annoying, but one has to be realistic. Everybody posts a couple of OT lines every now and then, like a joke or sth else irrelevant to the actual subject. I have no prob with that at all. Personally I hate all the whining and wishlists, but I also hate posts that could make up a short novel and take 20 mins to plow through, even if they're on topic they're annoying just as well in my humble opinion.

I'd say: stick to the subject, crack an OT joke every now and then, keep it short and simple, stop whining and wishing and enjoy what's given by the great Oleg and team, even if you don't like it...

and yes, real spam = ban

Ok, the only input I always give here is my appreciation, which is considered just as tedious by some members. Maybe we have to shut up completely unless you're a highly intellectual insider with extremely valuable knowledge on the subject who has sth important and interesting to say, is that what you want to point out?. It would be an elitist place, reserved for the ones who are 'in the know' (whatever that means)... now, what is that???

It would be fantastic if we could all make only useful and to the point discussions!

There could always be "Off" topics if some people wanted to have some fun or discuss BS, but this discussion would not interfere with update threads where we look for usefull stuff.

lolol right after I posted this I went to see today's update thread and it's full of useless posts lolol

PS. I have no problem with these posts or the people who posted them. I'm just saying that they're useless.

Answers relevant to the topic are fine, but as on several other sites the update thread usually degenerates into a slagging match between a few (usual) posters who appear to use the forum as a personal zone.

Nobody knows everything. Everybody knows something. If somebody knows something relevant, they should tell us about it (but not if they know everybody else knows it too).

I take the view that Mr Maddox shows us details because he is kind, and because we might spot something that can be improved.

It might be, that of the thousands viewing an image, only one will spot some detail, so it is the duty of the first to spot something to speak up. There is very little point to being the second to mention a detail that might be questionable.

Mostly, we don't know how easy or not it would be to fix a point of detail, it might be a couple of characters in the code, it might be a million lines of code, with code unless you know the particular code intimately, there's often no telling.

So, we can point to possible changes, but we have to accept that the final decision on whether a change can be made is not ours.

I think the overall moderation here is good.. but in some of these update threads I see stuff that just shouldn't be there... When Oleg points out in the first thread that he is aware of a bug or that the shots are pre beta or taken at a lower res etc.. and then we get googobs of posts pointing out the bug or the quality of the shots .. that Oleg mentioned in his initial post.. to me tat is a waste of space.. Some people just look to find flaws and point them out.. and while I am sure that 1C is appreciative of things pointed out by users that they may miss... all this is unfinished.. so I find it kind of annoying at times that folks just can't appreciate the update for it's own sake.. and wait until the sim is at least nearer to completion or even released in a demo before the critics come out of the woodwork.

I would go one step further and say that some posters seem to feel obliged to identify perceived flaws in development shots not so much out of contempt for the sim but rather as if there is some special merit or reward system in place for finding Waldo - or worse - to attempt to demonstrate their own powers of observation or 'expertise' in a given aspect of whatever the screenshot depicts: be it the shape of a spinner or cowling, or the instrumentation of a cockpit, or the species of grass in a region etc...

I think we need to ask ourselves in these situations - how important is it to be right vs noticed??

Hi, I would like to answer your post in several parts.

First, I would like to say that it is not particularly fairplay to bring a post from a past conversation and from another forum (and a completely different subject) over to here, by quoting only the worst statement. It is clear that there is a reason and conversation history why it came to that post in anger. I do not think, however, that you are interested in analyzing the mechanics of this incident, why it came to the anger and what the individual guilt of the participants (my guilt included) was in that thread.
What you are trying to do is usually called "discrediting", or sometimes "slander":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrediting_tactic

Furthermore, you only link to my post (but not the conversation history), while making yourself a even more defavorable translation from french to english of the post. That is called "libel" in english:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel


Second, you ask the question what a moderator should do with a post like mine on "Checksix". The answer is: a mod is free to warn or ban my account there if he wants to. The particular post you quoted was angry and impolite -- I agree. He would be right doing it in the time and I would support it then and now -- and I have already done myself in a way, because I have not posted a single post on this forum anymore since this conversation 5 months ago. I am self-banned so to speak -- because I have no interest whatsoever left in "Checksix", simply because of the treatment I got on checksix that made me angry in such a way. That leads me to the last point:

You accuse me of racism towards french. I want to make this short, because I really have no interest at all in bringing a fight from another forum 5 months ago to this place and this thread. It is of no concern to you that I speak french fluently since over 20 years, work in France and have a french wife, but I'll say it anyway, because it's an amusing detail.
I thought Checksix was a particular unwelcoming and unpleasant place to a new (foreigner) person like me, tainted by a certain faction that represents a arrogant, rude, excluding and elitist french attitude -- at least in my opinion. That would become much clearer for outsiders if you would translate the whole conversation. But you are completely free to disagree with my view and it may very well be that other people have other experiences. But that was mine, and I said it in an angry way back then and say it now again in a calm way: I haven't changed my opinion about that typical french elitism and rudeness towards foreigners as it exists seemingly on checksix (among a certain faction) one bit. One disclaimer I want to make though: I am totally convinced there are many fine people at Checksix. When the whole unfortunate fighting happened I got 2 pm's by the way supporting me.....both by french members. That is another funny detail.

To end this I would think it being polite to other people here and the subject of this thread to end the conversation about the incident on checksix. What you have done is an unfair attempt at discrediting me with an incident quoted out of context and a shaky "translation", and I have no further desire talking to you. If you still want to clear things up with me, please do so via PM or openly on Checksix if you absolutely feel the urge for public viewing. To be fair to you I'll check Checksix over the week-end to see if you have opened a thread there.

Thanks,

N.

Agreed.

I disagree with that, because early on it is easier to make changes than it is later.

This is about whether SoW should be a simulator or a game, and is asking for a game, in my reading of it. If history matters, and in a sim history matters, then details matter, and it's right to bring them up. Those who only want a game, and want it NOW may find this frustrating, but I would guess we are mostly simmers here.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrediting_tactic



Thanks Nausicaa, I've really appreciated your 'well-rounded' answer. ;)


We agree on that ! :grin:


...

Wow, you've not been looking very hard then...

Anyway I don't think it's racism, not by a long shot.

It's a european nations thing, I actually think we're probably allowed the odd 'Frenchie' or 'German asshole' they are pretty tame. There's always been a bit of inter-nation rivalry in europe (this is a massive undersatement, we've been killing each other for centuries!) and I much perfer the odd slanging match on a forum to the old way of doing things....


Anyway, remember...

Racism is born of ignorance.
Xenophobia is born of experience... ;)

Rodolphe just quoted the tiny bit in my answer that suited him. That was expected, and he is now on my ignore list, as I don't expect anything more constructive. He had his chance. If he wants to debate he can do it by the channels I have offered him. Anyway, I am all for coming back to the subject of this thread.

It might be my imagination, but isn't this week's update thread very very quiet?

There're still a few off topic posts, but the whole discussion seems, well, flat.

Plus, the on-topic posts mostly seem to have got the wrong end of the stick re the first two screenshots, and the 'bug' Mr Maddox mentioned.

Interesting.

P.S. I count two bans by nearmiss so far! :)

Yes interesting, although I do miss hearing their initial view's on the up-date. I think Oleg announcing his tiredness, also affected the enthusiasm of the thread.:grin:

Yeah its quiet, bad atmosphere and a 'climate of fear' lol. :grin: I can only speak for myself Dutch mate but I was not banned (obviously lol) but my post was just 'annotated' ; ironically, the part removed was a direct question to the mods as to whether what I was typing about FFB pertaining to my question to Oleg was "off topic" or not, and asking for clarification in a polite manner.

I copied and pasted exactly what was wrote to a text doc prior to this, so if anyone wants to see it, feel free to PM me. Too risky to do it any other way.

I think it might have served the 'cause' better if it was left in, then people could see that asking for clarification on OT was unacceptable....but that's just my opinion, and fair dinkum. :)

Technically I suppose it was OT, but I just made the point there is limited scope for discussion of these pictures, and I was responding to a fellow forum members statement about FFB....asking if it was ok.

There is most definitely a need to cut down on OT, and I wholeheartedly agree. There is also such a thing as disproportionate 'overkill' IMO, though I'm not even sure if we are allowed to have opinions any more.

End of day, it matters not. People will just start leaving this forum en masse and there will be no need for ban hammers anyway, they'll just go somewhere else. :)
'What wud yew dew?" Freedom isn't free. :grin:

Cya (in the event of an unscheduled 'Holiday'. :grin:). The truth has many Martyrs. :grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQZBVTp_-9Y

When a policy is changed it often happens that it is applied a little bit too harshly in the beginning. Those who have to enforce it want to make it very clear to everyone that the rules are different now, and they also have to test the ground beneath their feet a bit for themselves. Over time they will find the balance.
Overall though it feels much better now to read the official update thread. I am sure Oleg has a better time too reading (and finding) questions and valuable feedback, IMO, instead if wading through fighting and bickering.

Yeah, I noticed all that Orv. 'Climate of fear' just about sums it up.

In the poll, I voted for 'leave things as they are'.

Whilst it's easier to read stuff relevant to the update, we still have to wade through the short 'praise' posts.

And surprisingly, I'm actually missing the arguments and banter. It could be entertaining at times!:rolleyes::grin:

Personally I don't miss the arguments, I find the topic much nicer to browse through ATM ;)
I'd post there, but there's nothing to add; the game looks beautiful. I think I've really taken posts in this thread on board ;) lol

Brilliant lol. Lifetime ban with a custodial sentence I think.

Too many e-nazi's about on forums as it is, all that is needed is common sense, not hypocritical control freaks.

Exactly. Now there's hardly any "noise" to get through. Just as it should be.

Yer doin a heckuva job missy!

Yep. Like an alcoholic banned from the offie, I've been saved from myself :)

Seems the O/T (as in off-update) posts have started again....

So just click report on the posts that you think are too OT.

I have been doing so, but it's a bit pathetic really. I'd rather just see the conversations move to a new topic ;)

If you rated me out, I will find you up there one of these days.:-P

I didn't, I thought you made a good effort to put the thread right :-P so hopefully you'll find me up there to join you as your wingman mate :cool:

With all due respect, it would be an honor, as your wingman:grin:

Bluuurgh...........!

Sounds like the end of 'Top Gun'.

'Naw, you can be mine!'

Bluuuuurgh.....!:grin:

+1

You don't think I meant it, do ya:grin:

:(

Of course I meant it...dam split personality of mine!:-P

The damage is done.
http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/Derail_1.jpg

I agree that this topic needs to end, I think it's gone on long enough. I also think that stronger moderation is required for the forum as a whole.

Excuse me ?

The update is normally the first post within the thread LOL

I think its fun reading through 40 pages of comments; I’ll bet that Oleg looks at it as “feed back” from his loyal IL2 fans.

Some people read more than they post and some people post more than they read ... it's all good.

...


Is that the typical behavior of a worried aggressive polar bear standing on a ever melting iceberg ?


I don't really need a reply here. [; ))



Dismissed !

...

I find it un-ironic - that this thread has deteriorated into off topic flibble flabble and name calling etc....

seems appropriate actually - more severe moderation or less moderate moderation?


evbudy got ta lighten up sha

Don't knock this thread...

The last update from Oleg has been great. The number off topic postings is practically nil. 1 post deleted and no banned users.

The update thread is still On topic and discussions are sensible

So... I favor keeping this thread sticky and alive

I agree with you.........

Well the update is mainly of interest to mission builders and so forth with pictures of the game interface.

It is possible just one photo of a Spitfire near some trees with a cow in the background would have spawned 20 pages of nonsense about how "real cows" looked in the summer of 1940 :D

Lets see what happens this week :D

I see we're back to the ol' off-topic postings in the 3 December update thread.

At least it's come after the recent update, but I do agree ;) there hasn't been any real arguments or flame wars, so is it safe to say there's improvement?

Yes, but it's still annoying to see people drop right back into their old habits, like nothing ever changed.

My "report post" button was busy last night. ;)

Nothing has changed in update threads.
Still silly and meaningless posts that make me bored to death.
And these boring posts are worse than flame posts, at least to me.

Why can't people post only when they have something specific, that adds to the update thread, to say?
Do they think that we care if they "like it, it is fantastic!", or they "hate it, it is absolutely awful"?
We just don't care and don't want these spam posts in update threads...

I know...
I've thought the recent updates have been awesome, but (fortunately) by posting of late has been limited, because I have nothing to add to the updates, other than 'great!'.
I mean with the most recent update, my only knit-pick is why there may be long grass on an airfield and seemingly on a runway, but this would detract from the updates focus, wouldn't it? If anyone has an answer, I wouldn't mind a PM ;)
Have a nice weekend, all :cool:

Really? Shorter grass can be seen though, but I can see a lot of sense in what you say.
Thankyou, and sorry to go off topic.

+1

The biggest change I've noticed is that I haven't joined in with the OT chat :)

Hopefully those Luke has reported will get banned - incidentally, I'd prefer it to be 10 days, so they can't then spoil the next weeks thread.

oh lets just make it a lifetime ban...otherwise half of them will ruin every other update, and the other half will ruin the rest of them.

such is the world of ruin we live in *sob*

So, after seeing the second update thread in row being spammed to death, is it officialy decided that we can write whatever we want in these threads?

Not so...

It takes more time than most off topic posters deserve to delete their junk.

Mods don't always have time to spend on it.

7 day bans just make people mad, and resentful.

Too bad... we can't have "moderator for the day" and let all the cranks have a go at it for a day and see how they like it.

The posting I'm responding to doesn't help matters.