Two ore even 4 flyables - the main mistake of any team that would start after success of Il-2. Even if to compare with intial release of Il-2 in 2001.
Player would like to fly and master different aircraft. Some time very different.
I can tell much more what make the sim successfull, but you know.... I will not tell it now :)
However I prsonally really know what should be and should't be in a fligth sxim that to make it successfull even morte than IL-2 series. And I hope to reach that stage that to "overjump" my onw Il-2.

I am sure it will be toggle-able and with possibility to set a default state (on or off) so people that want to see the cockpit empty can do so... like DCS Black Shark has. Or you just wish to interdict something other people might like? ;)

As for gore effects. Activable from hidden setting like current IL-2 would be good enough. In some places people know that war without blood is just a myth :) .

More options is always better than less, of course, if is not hindering the development and the release.

Originally Posted by TheGrunch http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/...s/viewpost.gif
The only problem is that where you don't have many flyables, multiplayer can get quite predictable. I urge balance here. I would rather have half the planes we had in IL2 and really REALLY good fm/dm/wm.

Head movement is all most pilots need.


We have waited a long long time.

I wish you success :!:

S~!

+++1 on that! but what does "wm" mean? :confused:

Hi Oleg and teamwork guys! :-)

First of all great work again :grin:.

I have one idea :rolleyes: and 2 questions :confused:.

Idea:

You could put in the game one option for see the screen to scale 1/1 only in the cockpit view , that is to say 1 cm of the real cockpit will be 1 cm of the screen. There is a bigs screem, or 2 or 3 tv makes a big screen, its is posible!!

Questions:

1.- Can you tell us your impressions and feelings to pilot some planes in sow?

2.- When you pilot some plane the objects (trucks, armor) how do you see it? (all the details are visible or not).

Thx.

You know, I've been wanting to say this for a long time now, but have never really got down to doing it.

I agree 100% with the comment that effort should not be diverted into the creation of a large number of "flyables" - just a few superb ones (with excellent FM & DM) would be fine - rather to spend the time/effort on enhancing/improving/tweaking other aspects of the sim.

I must tell you, I have been an avid IL-2 sim pilot since its inception and have bought all the add-on's.
During that time I've flown various versions of the Spitfire (only recently I guess, with the introduction of the England maps) and various versions of the Me109 (on the Eastern Front).
I've tried my hand at a few US fighters (when 'Pacific Fighters' came out), and there was a time when I was "hooked" on the Me110 (I think that its superb quality of its cockpit did it for me!) but essentially I've stuck to my two "favourites" ... the Me109 & the Spit!

Am I odd in doing this?

I must say, I find it hard enough to master the flying characteristics of one type of aircraft, let alone a myriad!

I too want a pilot - not a ghostly presence. Ideally I want the option for a pilot. That way everyone would be happy.

I too would very much like to see a pilot instead of an empty chair. This really adds to the immersion!

Also I think mysticpuma's post went a bit unnoticed because it had good content. Especially I'd like to have the map as a kneepad instead of a magical window popping up in the screen. Don't know how hard it is to implement especially if we're talking about showing plane icons in it if enabled etc.

But still, I think it might be worth the investigation atleast.

BR,
Whatnot

Yes, a Pilot in these cockpits would be great!
Those of us who fear that he'd obscure the gauges might just turn it of and have this strange ghost-like cockpit...

Add me to the list of those who would like to see an OPTION to select Pilot-body ors Ghost-Pilot.

Originally Posted by SlipBall http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/...s/viewpost.gif
The Stuka look's very real to life, I notice in #3 .jpg small white caps on the water. Will those white caps remain the same all of the time, or are the wave heights connected somehow, to the weather engine in the game?...hope that you had a good rest:smile:



This to me will be an amazing visual part of the game, especially while I'm waiting for a rescue at sea:-P,...thanks!:)

virtualyou = cheesy

That would be good :-P
I guess our experiences with Il-2 are somewhat different. You have almost ten years experience with making it. I have almost ten years experience playing it. ;)

I concur with your sentiment though I think this will be a fruitless point to argue. Regardless, I think some people have a somewhat sanitized view of what air combat was and I do not agree that by adding any sort of blood or gore equates to a horror movie. It might be surprising to hear but people bled, got shot up, and died, often very violently while flying combat missions and I wished the game would reflect that or at least have a "realism" option that featured it. It almost seems like a disservice to those who went through the horror of air combat to simply glaze over the gore because it's "unpleasant". In my experience, the sim playing demographic tends to be an older crowd so I think we're all mature enough to handle it and I highly doubt many, if any, sales would be lost if SoW did receive a ESRB Mature rating or equivalent.

The absence or presence of blood and gore is not a dealbreaker one way or the other, but that's how I feel.

________
Coach Purses

I wonder why so many people focus attention on pilot itself,instead of the pilot's view.
In a Dogfight,I think it's more important to have a suitable view for observation than to look at our dummy body.
Too many things to pay attention to,enemy fighters,relative distance,instrument panel,and so on.
Need an enhanced 6DOF Native-system more than a Dummy.
At present, 6DOF doesn't do well still,and is not "Free" at all,even if using a TrackIR.While many other people can only use their 8-way Hats.
To give 6DOF a more quickly and accurately response,smooth feeling,truely infinitely-variabe,and an easy control with 8-way hat,gets High Priority.And most importantly,a native one by the official staff without too many troubles in Loading various 6DOF_Mods and having "crt=2" problems.
We are pilots in Fighters, not models on T-stages.
If anything to show,show your aerobatics,instead of your body.
If pilot should be in consideration.consider his view first,please.

@ necrobaron

The simple fact that many countries have age rating systems for computer gamers which tend to stick games which include gore and blood into the highest (age) class is a simple economical consideration no amount of want for realism can argue away. If push comes to shove in this regard I guess Maddox Games will always choose the economically sounder version and will leave the gory details out.

Or possibly a health bar for the aircraft. Maybe even an ammo counter on the screen, and a compass pointing to the next waypoint.

I don't have hard numbers but as I mentioned before, an educated guess would say that the number of simmers who are under adult age is fairly miniscule. If that's the case, what does it matter what rating it gets? I really don't think the rating would affect sales in any significant way, if at all. Regardless, there are plenty of silly, over-the-top, violent games (Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto, etc.) that do just fine, that the kiddies go nuts for. Something like blood splatter in the cockpit or diced up seagulls looks like small fries compared to the content of those blockbuster games.

________
Target gift cards

It matters because unless you hook gamers early, they'll tend to go to FPS and RTS (or MMO) games these days. I'm only hooked on flight sims because other than sim city, they were the first games I ever played. If you can't hook them early, you'll never hook them at all.

Well, the gore factor doesn't matter so much.

Why so? Well, because, considering the possibilities of the engine, this can be made by users after it's released, as a MOD.

But, honestly, anyone here ever checked the ESRB rating for a game, and, if someone did, you took that seriously in any way? Those ratings are retarded. No kid is going nuts because a seagull just exploded on your canopy, broke the windshield and covered you with blood. There were cases of some assholes playing Counter Strike at school, but I don't think a game alone can do that to someone.

Just my point of view, of course.

I have to agree here... I think it is kind of hokey myself....

Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever.. I also have no doubt that you will succed in that attempt.. ;)

I think cut scene animations and animated pilot in cockpit = waste of valuable development time with no long term value to the game.

Most of the gimmicky things people are asking for will lose their appeal very quickly. Even those asking for cut scenes will get bored of them after 2 or 3 viewings. Remember that we experience flight sims 99% from the pilot's point of view.

And tell me, when you're driving a car, who really notices their own body in their field of view? Nobody pays attention to their hands on the steering wheel. :rolleyes:

It also effects immersion if we see badly rendered 3D humanoids (which can never be rendered as well as solid structures) intermingled with the beautiful graphical environment we'll be immersed in.

The virtual world that we fly in will be greatly enhanced by what we see from the cockpit, what we hear over the radio, and what we read in breifings; not by 3rd person views of pilot animations or cut scenes.
:grin:

Anyone here realizes that it's not that complex to animate the freakin' pilot inside the cockpit? People just say it like they needed to rebuild the engine to make the pilot inside. Nobody is asking to put this in the top of their priorities list, but it's a feature that have to be considered.

Plus, let's be democratic here. No one is pointing a gun to your head and saying you will HAVE to fly with pilot inside the cockpit. You can simply switch it on or off, depending on your preferences. There's no point in denying something people would like just because YOU dislike it. That's being a bit selfish, don't you think?

My opinion still is: immersion is not determined by major features, but by the smallest details. In the end, you're always sitting in a chair looking to a freakin' monitor. But if you're sitting in that chair, hearing the pilot's breathing, with that lonely feel after everyone suddently disappeared, hearing the symphony made by that noisy Merlin engine and the static from the radio, and yet feeling like there's a strange silence, seeing your arms and legs doing some rather nervous movements to help you checking all angles for enemies, keeping a sharp eye on the oxygen gauge, and having to dive a bit to get some air... it just makes you feel closer to being inside the cockpit, instead of the chair in front of the monitor.

Dear Oleg....

This is all very interesting, but I'm still curious how damage will be calculated? Is damage going to be calculated by the physics of materials clashing (and the damage of accelerates & rapid oxidation)? Or...what are your thoughts on the issue?

Problem is, they need to make 1 pilot for every ac in game/new edition = S**tload of work.


Unless u wanna a stick or throttle petruding out of pilots leg for ex. because it fits in one cockpit and not the other. (as Oleg allredy stated, though i think he meant the movements of the 3D pilot, as in fine in one ac but leg outside the fuselage in another ac)


Not to mention the complexity involved if u wanna make the animation work with a clickeble cockpit (future maby?) . Will pilot move his arm when u puch down the flaps key, how will that work while df`ing animation wise, will pilot swich hand on control column if needed, or the pilots arms blocking instruments etc. etc.


Well, u get the idea of how "easy" it is to implement. (to a standard Oleg is willing to allow)



Would it be cool? Hell yah. Is it worth the work involved? Not according to Oleg.


Maby a future 3:rd party addon, who knows (if even possible)

It has already been answered:

No one asked for such detail, or pilot clicking all around or whatever. As I said, stick - throttle - rudder, similar to the DCS one.

If pilots (or humans, in general) are going to be detailed as stated by Oleg himself (I'm considering it has basic animations related to arms and legs), there could be room for putting a human pilot inside the cockpit, and articulate him to fit each cockpit, just as a normal pilot do. Move the leg a bit right/left, just move the left hand a bit, right hand around the stick and... voilà, you just have your pilot fitted to another aircraft.

I might be wrong about the possibilities of humans in-game, but, from what I understood, this isn't that tricky to model as people propose.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't saw the last post. At least I guess this will be possible to be made by users after the release.

This argument is warped: making a spectacle of blood and sufferings of human beings would be monstrous, and would denote a total lack of respect for the ones who really went through such an ordeal. I can understand the quest for a faithful simulation, but heck, that's a game and I want to enjoy it as such ... so no blood spatter for me, thanks.


Regards,
Insuber

That's exactely what I think is right, too!
Nicely put! :)

Originally Posted by Talisman http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/...s/viewpost.gif
Oleg,

With regards to the aircraft damage and cockpit pilot posts above. Please, no damage visual aids and please, please and please again, no dummy pilot in the cockpit!

I would like to see and use the cockpit without a dummy pilot getting in the way. This is a flight sim, not a cartoon game. I can't believe some of the stuff people are asking for. Good luck.

Happy landings,

Talisman




Yep hokey to me aswell

What problem do you have with a pilot that you may switch off if you don't like him?
Let those who want to see their legs inside a cockpit do so - the others can always turn it off.

It's not a high priority thing of course, but if there's some time left, I'm convinced, it would add the immersion.

As far as visual aids are concerned, I agree that we don't really need them. Even in Il-2 I always know what's wrong with my aircraft, more or less. When your aircraft is starting to act strangely, a glance out of the canopy normaly suffices to acknowledge the damage that occured...

Well if we could throw switche's I would think differently, such as in blackhawk for example, but we won't have that here. I think it more important to get this game to market ASAP, their not gonna do the pilot no matter how much their asked. Somebody said above about driving a car, I know that I only notice my body parts when I spill a drink

S~! Gentlemen

The Pilot Animations question has been answered many times by Oleg and Luthier.

Please remember that Storm of War series is going to be built with the modding community in MIND. Top quality mods WILL be able to be submitted for inclusion into the game.

There will be PLENTY of opportunity for the modding community to submit things like pilot models/animations ect for inclusion into the main game .... I am SURE someone will come up with a gore mod and just about about every other popular addition as well.

The will be Mod capabable and S.O.W Standard servers. Everyone will (hopefully) be happy.

.
.

It's all about immersion mate. :cool:

One wouldn't need to model the pilot chair either, but it wouldn't look quite right. Having the pilot's arms and legs missing is in the same ballpark for me.

When we talk about details like how the fuselage of a plane should sway with the waves when a plane crashlands into the sea I think adding an element as focal as a pilot into a an plane is well worth concidering.

Especially since this is probably something that'll be very hard to mod aferwards.

Edit after seeing a few repliers from Oleg & co: This is ofcourse the decision of the development team, but I think it's important that they're aware that visible pilots and other immersion enhancers are a very important factor for many simmers.

how do you know.... look at the mods that are made this days.... nobody tought that IL2 was '' that modable'':rolleyes:

exactly, when I play a game like that I just always find myself thinking "those aren't my hands, that's not my body, who is this curious humanoid who moves about oddly I'm looking at?" On the other hand when I'm just looking at the cockpit I'm thinking "so this is what it's like to pilot a Messerschmitt"

I suppose an on/off switch would appease both, but it's already been stated - there are more pressing needs to attend to

same ballpark!?:eek: not modeling the pilot seat would be a sin :evil:

I don't really care if there's toggleable legs, I just really wouldn't like to see mannequin-like arms floating about in a wooden manner in front of me all the time that would require different animations for each aircraft, which is quite a lot of time spent twiddling keyframes in 3dsmax for some poor guy, who could be doing something more exciting like playing with the particle system to make nice explosions.

When I look down in the cockpit its to look at my gauges. I wouldn't even notice my body not being there, so there is no immersion loss as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not against a selectable option, although I think there are more important options to work on.

Exactly. It's not that modeling the pilot is "easy". Although, trust me, it is not going to be easy. It's that it takes time from more important/valuable things that this sim should offer. Remember the scope of what Oleg and his team are trying to do right now. It's a basic backbone to which other things will eventually be added. Right now there is a timetable. Oleg needs this to be released no later than 2010. It's not possible to animate each and every different pilot for every plane to press buttons on the panel or move his body with your 6DOF set, or fight frantically to bail out, within this time frame. If he were to focus on this, much more important things would be forgotten, such as FM, DM, AI. This is what will make the sim last, in my opinion. If these elements are not top of the line, then SoW will end up in bargain bins within a year. The most important thing right now is this basic code to which our goodies will be added to later by Oleg and 3rd parties; if it's not done right this time in the first installment, the BoB, then it will doom the sim, and God knows I won't play IL-2 forever.

Of course there is the point of who's legs you'ld want to model. You would have to cater for the RAF, LW, Italians. Then when we get into different variations between summer and winter uniforms and god know what would happen in the tropical maps where we're flying in shorts! (Oleg! If you need a set of hairy white knobbly Knees to model I'm your man!)

Maybe this discussion should be moved to a wish-list tread so we're not taking the discussion away from the topic of the screenshots?

I would want a pilot model, but I can wait until after release (or never) when it can be done right and not get in the way of other priorities.

Even if we have already sceleton kinematics the work over animations is great. Just imagine how many varios of postions types of cloumns, seats of gunners, etc... in different aircraft.
And for each there must be different animations...
it is really more complex then to make standard sets of one the same movements for all of the soldiers in shooter....

Right explanation.

I have a question for British side.

There are yellow color painted bombs. It is training bombs or not?

I have another question. Now for Italian side
On some photos I see Italian fighters using in BoB with yellow nose. Was it for all Italian fighters or just for some part?

Understood. I hope this is done later by other users that like the idea.

They were High Explosive bombs. They kept this color until the US-made HE bombs changed color from yellow toward olive Drab (in March 1942). The british HE bombs color was also changed for olive drab then.

Practice british bombs were white.

you may find interesting info in this page:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/britord/bomb/cat-0004.htm

and

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/ordnance/index.htm

and subsequent pages...

JVM

I passed on your Q. to some of the best experts in Italy ...

As far as I know, the directive of the Regia Aeronautica to paint the fighters nose in yellow was effective - in all war theaters - from early spring to october 1941, therefore it was probably used in the last period by the Italian BoB expeditionary airforce (CAI), which ceased operations on April 15th 1941.

I don't know if it was used before spring 1941 by any CAI groups, but the super-experten will soon pop in .. :-)


Bye,
Insuber

Beat me to it ;)

Learned about that when I made the update for the British Ordnance in IL-2 and used the same source.

That one will answer all your questions Oleg.

I don't, that's why I said 'probably'. ;)

Is I said in the post it is the sam ballpark for ME.

I don't really understand this mentality of saying that what is important to person x is not REALLY important because it's not important for ME.

Thank you very much!
That means that we will need one the same bomb later painted by other way.... not so good...mean for coding

Ok, thanks. Waiting.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the pilot should press every button, pick his nose and scratch his groins while flying. Just hold on to the stick and maybe touch a throttle every now and then if we would have that luxury.

No need to slander suggestions even if you're not for them.

A few noob questions which I aim not to raise as intensive discussions of wether they are needed or not as the pilot model discussion did. These are probably already answered in some of the threads and by searching I found a quite a few threads but no real conclusion:

1) Clickable cockpit

First check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLkfx6QxLfg
I have always liked the idea of a clickable cockpit and after seeing the video I started drooling of my own powerglove.

2) Infantry in the battlefield

I would love the possibility of strafing infantry masses in the battlefield but have seen comments that it's a flight sim not FPS etc. But as strafing infantry was as far as I've understood a normal action in WW2 I want to ask.

So could some of you vets summarize the discussion and dev's conclusion on these topics. And if these are sore wounds already debated billion times I want to appologize in advance. I by no means want to create a big fuzz and start useless debate if the topic is already covered.

Also links to appropriate threads would be quite sufficient.

Check P.M.

What Insuber says is correct. At the beginning you can see G-50 and Cr-42 without yellow nose. Later they were all painted with RLM GELB 04 (German yellow).

What the others said....

Since we're on the Italian birds, time ago I sent you and Alex (if I remember correctly) all the informations that I could gather (thx also to Pag and Ferdinando d'Amico) on the camouflage of the Br 20, colour picts included.
The 3D model is really stunning, but I'm sorry to say that the camouflage is still wrong, if not in the colour tones (the RLMs look to be those that we suggested), at least in the pattern of the mottling.

I pointed out the camo problem but I received no answer.
You still have my email, I guess. Feel free to contact me in case you need more details and help.

I don't think I mentioned that the pilot should scratch his groin either. However, people have asked for a complex first person view bailout routine, or if his plane ditches, where water gushes into the cockpit.

I did not mean for that post to come off as slander. You can believe me when I say that I wouldn't mind a nicely modeled figure in the cockpit. Maybe I wont fly with him all the time, but it could make for some nice movies scenes. And who knows, maybe it is really immersive.

But I am somewhat opposed to the idea when folks demand it right now. There are too many other things for Oleg's team to work on, and in no way will making even the most basic figure fit into the current time frame. If there is a pilot, I don't want a half-job clunky and immobile mannequin on which I "can see my own headless body" with a 6DOF. I would rather have something of quality, that at the very least looks convincing (and no, it doesn't have to reach out and press buttons).

In the current time frame, which is now very limited, I think it would be better if the team focused on the core of the game. Pilot figures will be added later by someone enthusiastic about them. Then you will download such a mod, and hey-presto! But modding FM, and DM which were forgotten in favor of the pilot figure is likely out of the question.

I want to say again, that I respect your and others right to want a pilot in the first person view, but I just want to make it clear that we all need to be patient for these sorts of things. Game design is extremely difficult, anyone will tell you. To do it to the highest standard will of course take time, even if it seems "easy" to you. SoW has taken years to develop; I don't think it is because Oleg and Co. are just playing Tetris all day.

:lol:just giving you a hard time:razz:

Unfortunatelly I lost all emails: you and Ferdinando d'Amico....
I can send you the textures of Fiats and you'll try to explain or correct the colors with the help of Italian community. The we will put them in a sim. Just you should understand that in engine colors(tints) are in constant changes due to fact of real physics for the day-night light colors. It dpends even if you fly in clouds or out of them.
So really just simple correction probably would be hard... :)

My enail is still the same.

Hi Oleg, the colours look fine to me. The mottling should be different.
I'll send you an email later today.

I've been corrected by a (real) expert, 150GCT_Pag: the noses of CR.42s and G.50s of CAI were painted in yellow shortly after their arrival in October '40, with German paints, to facilitate their identification and for sake of uniformity with the German ally.

So yellow noses were adopted starting from October 1940, independently from the directive of Regia Aeronautica of June 22nd 1941 (thanks to 150GCT_Pag for the clarification).

Regards,
Insuber

Ok, we will have both with and without yellow nose in a sim. :)

It´s unbelievable the things you learn in this hobby!! :D

Great video! I wasn't a fan of clickable cockpits because I thought it'd be too cumbersome to click with a mouse but with something like this ... WOW! I'm convinced. I'd wait for a third party to implement clickable cockpits though.

Good thing it doesn't have the pilot in it... god knows what else that guy would think to do with that devilish hand... :P


Teh future is bright though!

Haha! I was thinking the same thing!

________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD

This was a great update! The best yet. I really enjoyed the behind the scenes look at what you guys and gals are doing and where you do it. I have been gaming since the TRS-80 what a hot piece of gear and I have never been so charged up about an upcoming release. Keep up the great work and thanks for keeping us in the loop.

Hope Oleg gives us on Christmas a very nice gift.


A combat scene in big resolution screenshots … will be very nicy;)