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LoyalNine 11-16-2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igo kyu (Post 119789)
Eh? Fixed by the player? that doesn't sound like fun.

Runway craters would have been filled in a few hours at most (as they used to say at the time, there was a war on).

If you mean bullet holes should not evaporate when the graphics card gets bored of them, I'm with you, but if you want everybody to suffer unrealistically long-lasting effects from offensive actions, I'm absolutely not.

I mean this for campaign wars... not dogfight server type stuff. If you take out an airfields C&C as well as runway its gonna take a while to get back in teh fight. (how this is modeled in game via point/time ect.. would be a call on the devs part I guess. Would be a good way to keep/commit the other side from having/using resources. A well placed airfield was always a tasty target.

I am coming at this from Falcon4 where this sort of thing makes a difference in a campaign.

Igo kyu 11-17-2009 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalNine (Post 120026)
I mean this for campaign wars... not dogfight server type stuff. If you take out an airfields C&C as well as runway its gonna take a while to get back in teh fight. (how this is modeled in game via point/time ect.. would be a call on the devs part I guess. Would be a good way to keep/commit the other side from having/using resources. A well placed airfield was always a tasty target.

I am coming at this from Falcon4 where this sort of thing makes a difference in a campaign.

I don't know how long you're expecting it to take to repair an airfield. There were a lot of people in Britain then, and the roads were adequate, so getting a thousand labourers or squaddies to a particular airfield to dig soil into holes wouldn't have been an insurmountable problem.

If there were no other airfields affected, it wouldn't even matter, particularly in the BoB where there were many airfields around about. Many were just big flat fields, in those days fighters didn't need the landing room they do now.

Aircraft factories would have taken much longer to replace.

It's not as if an airfield is an isolated installation that is unaffected by it's surroundings. If you are thinking of airfields as items that have to be self sufficient, that reminds me of Command and Conquer, I don't want BoB SoW to become a clone of that.

erco 11-17-2009 01:09 AM

Ilya, are you guys paying Feathered? You ought to be... His suggestions, particularly that last one, are great!

Skoshi Tiger 11-18-2009 02:01 AM

AAA behaviour
 
I don't know historically accurate it would be for the Battle of Britain but here goes

1) How about exclusive AAA belts or zones where any aircraft that enters is a target. (like during the V1 attacks)

2) And how about flack that stops shooting when a friendly aircraft comes in for an attack.

Picture this. the Crew of a He111 are being bounced aroud as their formation is being hammered by an intensive AAA bararge. All of a sunden everything goes quiet. Theres a sigh of relief until one of the gunners calls out "Auchtung Spitfire!!"

LoyalNine 11-18-2009 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igo kyu (Post 120041)
I don't know how long you're expecting it to take to repair an airfield. There were a lot of people in Britain then, and the roads were adequate, so getting a thousand labourers or squaddies to a particular airfield to dig soil into holes wouldn't have been an insurmountable problem.

If there were no other airfields affected, it wouldn't even matter, particularly in the BoB where there were many airfields around about. Many were just big flat fields, in those days fighters didn't need the landing room they do now.

Aircraft factories would have taken much longer to replace.

It's not as if an airfield is an isolated installation that is unaffected by it's surroundings. If you are thinking of airfields as items that have to be self sufficient, that reminds me of Command and Conquer, I don't want BoB SoW to become a clone of that.


Yes it very well could make a difference depending on the campaign and how it's set up... And if certain airfields have access to certain aircraft or loadouts it could make a whole lot of difference.

Have you ever played Falcon 4 and gotten into the campaign or flown in an online war such as Forgotten Skies and seen how that's set up?? May make a bit more sense than your C&C reference.

Btw - you don't happen to be the guy by the same name that posts over at the AMD forums do you??

Igo kyu 11-18-2009 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalNine (Post 120244)
Yes it very well could make a difference depending on the campaign and how it's set up... And if certain airfields have access to certain aircraft or loadouts it could make a whole lot of difference.

Aircraft can be flown into any airfield that has a long enough runway (so maybe not bombers at some fighter airfields).

Quote:

Have you ever played Falcon 4 and gotten into the campaign or flown in an online war such as Forgotten Skies and seen how that's set up?? May make a bit more sense than your C&C reference.
I tried Falcon 4, I didn't get further than the first flight (instant action?), it has a really nice database of aircraft and vehicles. I don't recall even seeing a box for Forgotten Skies in the shops, though my memory is particularly bad.

Quote:

Btw - you don't happen to be the guy by the same name that posts over at the AMD forums do you??
No, this is the only place I use this name, I didn't know it wasn't utterly unique, though as it's one possible version of a particular meaningful phrase, there's no reason it should be.

MD_Titus 11-18-2009 05:29 PM

a lot of ther replies seem to be requests for features that are seen regularly, rather than cool random once in a while events. feathereds suggestions are top notch though.

got a couple here anyway.

when landing at an airbase that's been raided recently, time delayed bombs go off nearby. would teach you to use homebase or a redirected base rather than the nearest one.

a ferrying mission. get bounced by the enemy and have to evade them in cloud until their fuel depletes enough to drive them off home.

foreign object damage as you blow bits off the enemy. perhaps some bits and pieces lodged in the leading edge or chunks flying off the prop causing vibration.

Avimimus 11-18-2009 06:46 PM

It's surprising how much I've wanted a monocle - ever since the I.A.R. 81 was released as a flyable, actually.

Necrobaron 11-18-2009 08:10 PM

How about the possibility to collide with the body of a bailing enemy? Maybe see people on fire as they bail from a flaming bomber?
________
Harmed By Nexium

Insuber 11-18-2009 09:48 PM

You are clearly obsessed by blood and gore ... are you sure that you are in in the right game?:-D. Btw Oleg said clearly 'no blood spatters or other gore effects AFAIK.

Ins

Romanator21 11-18-2009 10:04 PM

Well he is the "Necro-baron", necro meaning death, and I suppose Baron implies having some sort of power over it/through it. :rolleyes:

robtek 11-18-2009 10:08 PM

@necrobaron

you really live up to your nickname :-D

No, really, who wants something like that? That's ghoulish.

SlipBall 11-18-2009 10:37 PM

So what do you think of the suggestion's so far Luthier, has anyone hit on any of the ideas that you had in mind?...I know that you were looking for rare, one time events that would surprise the off-liner on occasion. But I think that you have a great opportunity here to learn from these ideas, and to make SOW a truely incredable off-line experience. I think that the more we can interact with AI the better, they are our human crew and our friends in game off-line. Greatly increased amount of commands available to use would help out the most. Maybe even hearing the crew do small talk among themselves, or hearing the navigator telling a funny joke at times. AI can be the substitute for the human element that so many of us crave here.

Necrobaron 11-18-2009 11:20 PM

Well, Luthier asked for some "Holy sh... did that just happen?" ideas and that would indeed be my reaction if I saw that kind of thing in-game. ;)

I have no problem with blood and gore if its done in a realistic way. In fact its pretty unrealistic not to have it and instead have a sanitized depiction of "how it was".

Make of "necrobaron" what you wish. I guess it could mean a variety of things. :-P
________
porn star Cam

airmalik 11-19-2009 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrobaron (Post 120406)
How about the possibility to collide with the body of a bailing enemy?

I've had my wing sawed off by a parachute in IL2 once.

Blackdog_kt 11-19-2009 01:25 AM

Let me just say that i'm with Feathered on this one. His ideas about communication with the AI are excellent and remind me a bit of a mix between the old European Air War and B17 the mighty 8th.

Both had detailed communication routines, EAW for your wingmen and B17 for the crew members. I distinctly remember that in EAW i would orchestrate coordinated attacks against bomber formations by combining orders. For example, if you told the flight to disengage it meant to abandon combat, but if you told them to rejoin it simply meant to keep in formation without revokig previous orders. So, you would tell them to drop into a wider formation to avoid collisions, switch them to line abreast and then order "attack bombers" and immediately after "rejoin".

This was the equivalent of attacking without breaking formation and it was awesome. The AI wingmen were going wherever you were and attacked the targets you guided them to. Imagine this with a line abreast of 12 Fw190s on a head on attack against 36 B17s. That game is way old (older than IL2) and i still haven't seen such a clever system of controlling your AI wingmen in any prop sims since.

Similarly, in B17 the mighty 8th, the gunners were calling out contacts and even made heated remarks in combat. I didn't get to see all of the messages, but there were people posting what they got over the internet and they would really set the mood. In one case someone was having an encounter with Me262s, the gunner called it out and as it come near he exclaims "Did you see that?!". Or another gem "i'm can't die, i'm still a virgin!" by a squeaky 19 year old voice muffled by the oxygen mask, as the other guy who's giving him first aid examines his wound he says "you're going to be fine, it's just a scratch". It was a single player game and yet i felt bad whenever one of my crew would get injured or killed.

There is no need to over-dramatize things though. Simply following feathered's ideas and using clever dialogue for each option would do.

Necrobaron 11-19-2009 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airmalik (Post 120480)
I've had my wing sawed off by a parachute in IL2 once.

Yeah, I've had that happen a time or two.
________
Marijuana Vaporizer

PanzerAce 11-19-2009 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD_Titus (Post 120374)

foreign object damage as you blow bits off the enemy. perhaps some bits and pieces lodged in the leading edge or chunks flying off the prop causing vibration.

FOD in general would be nice :P

4H_V-man 11-20-2009 02:26 AM

Once, on-line, I had killed the engine of a P-40 at VERY close range in my Oscar. When the pilot bailed out, his ejected canopy hit the propeller of my aircraft causing my engine to stop. Talk about OH SH!T!!!

Necrobaron 11-20-2009 03:03 AM

Wow, I don't think I ever had that happen!
________
Suzuki Kizashi

Viking 11-20-2009 08:17 AM

What the...
 
I think he is looking at things taht rearly occurs like; a hare or dear that sprints over the runway as you land ( once in a 10000 times!), you look down to check the airspeed and see a fly on the instrument( takes of and never returns), as you try to get away from a 109 on your tail your whole life passes in front of you in 3 sec etc etc.

regards

viking

Bobb4 11-20-2009 08:40 AM

Things I can think of on the top of my head.
Kill logbooks very similar to Red Baron 3d. Intel briefings listing the highest scoring aces both enemy and your own. The accuracy of the enemy, ace review can be speculation..
Good mission briefings with definable targets and debriefings.
Random plane malfunctions. Agree bailouts should be first person.
An active ready room/pilot room, an office should be given to pilots as they are promoted.
While ai crewmembers need not be modelled, (animated) you should have dossiers on them indication their sate-of-mind, health etc.
As you are promoted or choose at the start to take a more senior role you should have dossiers of everyone in your squadron including ground crew etc.
Medals, rest period and promotions should be under your control.
Example a young sergeant pilot joins.
Three missions later he is an ace. Do you make him a flight leader?
Six sorties into the battle D flight has returned again without a kill – Do you replace Flight Sergeant Bob?
Again most of this can be done without much work on animations and game engine.
Model cowardice, heroism with a lot of stats and figures.
Six kill Flight leader sergeant Smith rtb's shortly before contact with the enemy for the tenth time, in the last 12 missions, what do his medical records show. Does he need resting or has he lost it and needs rotation as an instructor?
The single player that just wants to fly can still become a flight/squadron leader he just hands over the mundane stuff to ai adjutants.
Infligh random but rare radio malfunctions.
Rookie ai that battle to stay in formation, especially new replacements.
Rookie fighter pilots that (ai) cannot shoot, time spent on the range will improve their stats.
The longer a pilot (ai) lives the better some stats should become, counter balanced by moral.
High losses means = poor moral, the loss of a top ace = poor moral.
What I hope for in SOW is that they make the squadron, be it Italian, German or British a living breathing entity, not necessarily by fancy animation but by using just some of the above...

CrazySchmidt 11-20-2009 09:22 AM

Surprise attacks plain and simple! No matter where no matter when. Nothing visible on maps or radar.

The type of situation that makes you jump like hell when it hits, a little bit like a first person shooter (although I appreciate that there is a lot of mood music happening there) except it may be something like returning to base after a milk run just before landing, or in a briefing for a new mission. Just so long as there isn't any jerky hard drive loading stuff from triggers, it needs to be seamless.

Also, after taking hits and looking down to see ones legs damaged by gunfire, perhaps visible bone and meat modelling would be really amping!! Also in a Spit or Hurri and seeing visible spillage of fuel into the cockpit would be frightening.

Real physical damage to ground personal. Let's all be honest here, we all enjoy first person shooters as well, with the more realistic effects provided by the latest releases and how personal react to taking gunfire. I say an excellent feature would be to model large calibre gunfire on ground troops. I remember reading in an article some years ago, that a P-47 pilot on a strafing mission late in the war over Germany, was horrified by witnessing his own 50 cal rounds dismembering an enemy soldier manning an anti aircraft gun, he stated that he simply hadn't thought of what his guns were doing outside of shooting down enemy aircraft.

CS. :)

PeterPanPan 11-20-2009 10:29 AM

Some great suggestions in this thread. I think we need things which make you jump, surprise you, get the adrenaline pumping. How's about ...

1. After a mission, you go to lower your gear, and you only get 2 greens. That's bad enough, but then as one of the wheels is stuck partially down, it is blocking your radiator, and your engine overheats. (I'm thinking of Spitfires here for the rad issue).

2. You try and bail out but your hood is jammed. You have to repeatedly key press to get it released, much like manual gear extension, although much more frenetic!

3. Oxygen failure. Think this has already been mentioned. Screen starts going grey above 12,000 feet or so for no apparent reason. Better act fast and get below 10,000 feet.

4. Unexpected weather. You took off in clear conditions, but now you have limped back home after a heavy scrap, with limited fuel and are horrified to see your airfield is covered in fog.

And lastly, is there any way of recreating the "run like hell" when the scramble bell rings?

PPanPan

Wutz 11-20-2009 02:40 PM

How about something that is still a problem even in modern aviation? Bird strikes?
Comes unexpected, and can be devastating!! :shock:
http://www.bywat.co.uk/birdstrike.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KZ5qdgu3av...rd+strike1.jpg
http://www.goldengatewing.org/events...birdstrike.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...tyroom.480.jpg
http://www.jacanaent.com/Photos/Airc...Birdstrike.jpg
http://www.airlineempires.net/blog/w...rdstrike_3.jpg

drafting 11-20-2009 05:14 PM

Just seeing those pics made me shout 'Holy sh... did that just happen!' :grin:

ECV56_Lancelot 11-20-2009 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wutz (Post 120895)
How about something that is still a problem even in modern aviation? Bird strikes?
Comes unexpected, and can be devastating!! :shock:

Oleg already stated that there will be seagulls, and they will cause damage to aircrafts if rammed. Even if you hit several seagulls the plane could go down.

Lucas_From_Hell 11-20-2009 06:52 PM

This will be good to practice gunnery: seagull shooting! Once you manage to kill them all without running out of ammo, you can even kill a mosquito :mrgreen: !

Reminded of those old mini-games from old games... "Shoot 50 seagulls in 60 secons to unlock incendiary ammunition!"

Insuber 11-20-2009 08:20 PM

LOL we're in the animal mood, why don't we ask for the Squadron basset hound ... Eduard modeled it already with their BF110 1:48, so why don't we ? Imagine the animal going crazy when the squadron lands, or visiting your grave owling in despair ... I'm kidding of course ... but Ilya threw the stone and then left us going astray ... come and give us a sign before we go nuts !

Ins

II./JG1_Klaiber 11-20-2009 09:03 PM

I came across this while reading Wikipedia:

Quote:

VVS pilots usually flew the P-40 at War Emergency Power settings while in combat, this would bring the acceleration and speed performance closer to that of their German rivals, but could burn out engines in a matter of weeks. They also had difficulty with the more demanding requirements for fuel quality and oil purity of the Allison engines. A fair number of burnt out P-40s were re-engined with Soviet Klimov engines but these performed relatively poorly and were relegated to rear area use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_P-40

This made me think about realistic wear and tear on your aircraft over a series of missions.

Even with the best mechanics and the best parts, real aircraft in war time conditions eventually are negatively impacted by what's happening to them.

You don't have to get shot at to have the performance of an aircraft drop, though MG or cannon rounds into your engine certainly don't help. Chronic problems could arise in specific aircraft within your squadron. And this could add a new level of realism and squadron maintenance. Plus, a few "holy sh.." moments while flying as well.

Meusli 11-21-2009 01:02 AM

How about if you do well in your career you get to meet the queen/furher who place a medal on you. Could be a cool cut scene, but don't know if modeling Hitler would be suitable, maybe someone else.

Wutz 11-21-2009 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meusli (Post 121046)
How about if you do well in your career you get to meet the queen/furher who place a medal on you. Could be a cool cut scene, but don't know if modeling Hitler would be suitable, maybe someone else.

You do know that with an animation like that, it might bann the game from the German market? Those responsible for approving software to the market to not take well to stuff like swastikas or Adolf Hitler animations, that might be seen as a kind of glorifying of that nut.

Lucas_From_Hell 11-21-2009 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wutz (Post 121085)
You do know that with an animation like that, it might bann the game from the German market? Those responsible for approving software to the market to not take well to stuff like swastikas or Adolf Hitler animations, that might be seen as a kind of glorifying of that nut.

That's right. Never got these stupid laws - after all, it's history, it happened, and just pretending it didn't happened won't change it.

About the holy shit ideas, maybe modelling something like pilots freezing their butts at high altitudes (maybe by doing some annoying light shaking on the camera), and hearing the pilot breathing inside the cockpit (and breathing heavier when pulling Gs and etc.) Would add a lot to immersion :mrgreen: .

6S.Manu 11-21-2009 10:20 AM

I didn't read all the thread:

I would like the need to write a report after the mission, and in some mission I would like to have a ride searching for crash sites (friendly or enemy), to confirm kills or KIA/MIA

blottogg 11-23-2009 02:04 PM

How about chivalry? We've all read the accounts of German fighter pilot Franz Steigler coming across Charles Brown's shot-up B-17 and escorting it to the channel instead of shooting it down. Or Robert Johnson being pounced by an Fw 190 which emptied its magazines into his P-47. Amazed that he was still flying, the 190 pilot saluted and flew off, instead of calling for a buddy to finish the job.

This type of event would be even more rare in the Pacific, or the Russian front. And the flip side could also provide an "oh sh**" moment, like strafing 'chutes.

Wutz 11-24-2009 02:18 PM

Knights in full armor don´t fit in most cockpits.:-P

Ironman69 11-24-2009 02:23 PM

what if you are a Luftwaffe pilot, and a life-like animated Herman Goring comes strolling by your airfield with his entourage to inspect you and your aircraft.

ElAurens 11-24-2009 04:35 PM

Guys, enough with the human animation sequences.

It's a flight sim, and none of us have machines now, or in the foreseeable future that could run all of the crazy stuff you are dreaming of here.

And do remember that visuals of real Nazi "personalities" would get the sim banned in most of Europe.

ECV56_Lancelot 11-24-2009 07:44 PM

What if you shot down a friendly, when you start next mission you find your self on a empty detention room, where you can see on a windows your squadron taking of, and you have to stay there for all the lenght of the mission, doing absolutely nothing, until your squad return home.
That would be fun as hell!!................. or would be hell!!, i can´t be sure :grin:

rollnloop 11-25-2009 12:04 AM

Fireteam/Bulldozer:

Fireteam (two or more trucks) is placed by mission designer on the airfield

Bulldozer same

If fireteam detects something burning on ground within 3km distance and no ennemy in vicinity (no intervention under straffing/bombing), fireteam moves to burning thing and sprays water on it, extinguishing the fire in a time proportional to fire size (big hangar longer to extinguish than single seater aircraft).

If Bulldozer detects something on the runway with engine broken or pilot dead and not burning, bulldozer pushes it out of the runway then comes back to initial location. bulldozer does not cross the runway if something with working engine and live pilot is on runway.

zaelu 11-25-2009 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu (Post 121098)
I didn't read all the thread:

I would like the need to write a report after the mission, and in some mission I would like to have a ride searching for crash sites (friendly or enemy), to confirm kills or KIA/MIA

+1

The scoring system should have a complex form settable by server where you get the points only after debriefing and claiming your kills as accurate as possible. Like claiming an air victory in the wrong sector (L14pad6) in place of (L15pad4) will render a null kill or a probable kill.

PeterPanPan 11-25-2009 01:49 PM

Did I just see that? A German float plane with clear Red Cross markings looking like it is on a recce mission, not looking for downed pilots? Do I shoot it down? What are my orders? Do I take the matter into my own hands or leave it be?

This really happened in 1940. See here for more info.

So, how's about random appearances of Luftwaffe operated Red Cross float planes (could use the He 115 if the He 59 or Do 18 aren't available in game) with a scoring system based on heavy penalties if you shoot down a genuine Red Cross aircraft?

PPanPan

ElAurens 11-25-2009 04:54 PM

An enemy aircraft is an enemy aircraft. That is how it should be looked at. The pilots that don't make it home today are not going to be shooting at you tomorrow.

Point penalty for shooting down ASR birds?

Pffffttttttt.......

Zorin 11-25-2009 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 122615)
An enemy aircraft is an enemy aircraft. That is how it should be looked at. The pilots that don't make it home today are not going to be shooting at you tomorrow.

Point penalty for shooting down ASR birds?

Pffffttttttt.......

You can't honestly want to follow that track... or you end up with: "a hospital is a building the enemy could hide in" so I better bomb it to bits...

Igo kyu 11-25-2009 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorin (Post 122623)
You can't honestly want to follow that track... or you end up with: "a hospital is a building the enemy could hide in" so I better bomb it to bits...

How about an abbey?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino

bhunter2112 11-25-2009 07:53 PM

Would that make me abby...normal?

Wutz 11-26-2009 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 122615)
An enemy aircraft is an enemy aircraft. That is how it should be looked at. The pilots that don't make it home today are not going to be shooting at you tomorrow.

Point penalty for shooting down ASR birds?

Pffffttttttt.......

With that kind of view a medic, ambulance or hospital, hospital ship, is a person, building or vehicle with a target painted on? People who think that way then also don´t mind randomly bumping off civilians, don´t matter they are enemy.....so why where people upset about Nanking, or the way POWs where threated by the Japanese??
Or the cases where downed allied aircrew where lynched in Germany. On your line of thinking all fair targets as they are enemy.

I don´t like that way of thinking at all.

TheGrunch 11-26-2009 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 122615)
Point penalty for shooting down ASR birds?

Pffffttttttt.......

Air battles occurred simply over who was to rescue downed airmen plenty of times during the war. Chances are that your ASR aircraft are operating in the area as well. Captured pilots mean vital intelligence!

Wutz 11-26-2009 11:40 AM

Yes but I would say it was a minority that took pop shots at downed airmen.
Actuelly you read a lot more of cases where opposing pilots took a rather humain attitude to bailed opponents. But then of course maybe the chute shooters, and medic killers did not boast of their hero deeds?:???:

Snuff_Pidgeon 11-27-2009 05:26 AM

In the course of real warfare, the combatants have to live with what they have done.It is always best to keep a cool head and not attack the defenceless and leave it to those that have no backbone!

PeterPanPan 11-27-2009 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuff_Pidgeon (Post 123100)
... It is always best to keep a cool head and not attack the defenceless ...

I agree, but the point here is that not all the Luftwaffe Operated Red Cross aircraft were defenceless. Some of them abused their position and were armed or simply were not on humanitarian missions - they were providing support to combat missions or on recce flights, all under the guise of the Red Cross.

So the question was, as an allied pilot, what do you do?

Here's the RAF communiqé in full, issued in July 1940:

Enemy aircraft bearing civil markings and marked with the Red Cross have recently flown over British ships at sea and in the vicinity of the British coast, and they are being employed for purposes which His Majesty's Government cannot regard as being consistent with the privileges generally accorded to the Red Cross.

His Majesty's Government desire to accord to ambulance aircraft reasonable facilities for the transportation of the sick and wounded, in accordance with the Red Cross Convention, and aircraft engaged in the direct evacuation of the sick and wounded will be respected, provided that they comply with the relevant provisions of the Convention.

His Majesty's Government are unable, however, to grant immunity to such aircraft flying over areas in which operations are in progress on land or at sea, or approaching British or Allied territory, or territory in British occupation, or British or Allied ships.

Ambulance aircraft which do not comply with the above requirements will do so at their own risk and peril.
1940


So, it seems to me that allied pilots must make their own decisions on whether to shoot or not based on the position and actions of each Red Cross aircraft they see. This could make for some interesting game play.

PPanPan

Ravenous 11-27-2009 09:31 AM

Hey, I don't know wether someone has suggested it already but here it is.
regardless of wether or not we get a 1st person view of the pilot in the cockpit, we could atleast get some visual effects to go with pilot damage...right??

imagine the differance between IL-2 where your screen gets a slight red filter and the controls get a little less effective ( the more damage the worse the effect) and what we could have in SOW where if your pilot gets hit you get some blood-spatter in the cockpit, on the gunsight, instruments, stick, floor and stuff like that depending on the angle and location of the hit:P

that would ofcourse be alittle much to hope for with the age rating-system the game has to go through and this being mere eyecandy with a bit of realism thrown in..

more in-cockpit damage would be awsome, like smoke from the engine filling the cockpit, fuel from the tanks leaking in the cockpit in the planes that this actually could happen in
glass shattering after dammage because of the stress, cockpit-door/canopy refusing to open because of damage, instrument malfunction and errors.

and lastly if the pilot-DM is complex enaugh it would be cool if the controls one could operate with left arm only would be delayed or non-functional if you take a hit in the left shoulder or arm, and ofcoarse the same would apply to rudderpedals and brakes, and operations one could only use the right arm for:P

Wutz 11-27-2009 03:34 PM

Well if you had read Olegs posts, you would know that he is not going down that line with blood and gore, as that could in some countries get the game rated as over 18, and so reduce sales. Maybe think what you are wishing for?

Necrobaron 11-27-2009 07:12 PM

I sound like an old record since I've brought this up before, but I don't buy the idea that blood n' guts will reduce sales in any significant way considering there are plenty of violent games that do just fine with an 18+ rating, not to mention the sim-playing demographic tends to be (from what I've seen) over 18 anyways and thus making the rating a moot point. However, as you said, Oleg has stated violence will not feature in SoW and, as much as I disagree with that decision, it is the final word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wutz (Post 123226)
Well if you had read Olegs posts, you would know that he is not going down that line with blood and gore, as that could in some countries get the game rated as over 18, and so reduce sales. Maybe think what you are wishing for?

________
Cheap airsoft

Wutz 11-27-2009 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrobaron (Post 123305)
I sound like an old record since I've brought this up before, but I don't buy the idea that blood n' guts will reduce sales in any significant way considering there are plenty of violent games that do just fine with an 18+ rating, not to mention the sim-playing demographic tends to be (from what I've seen) over 18 anyways and thus making the rating a moot point. However, as you said, Oleg has stated violence will not feature in SoW and, as much as I disagree with that decision, it is the final word.

Well you might not believe it, but here in Europe a game with lots of blood & gore will be rated as +18 meaning you will not find it in your normal store.That
means only those that know where else it might be available will get it. For your normal users, the game will be next to non existant. Might be differant in your part of the world, but I doubt customers are only sought in one certain region? I think they are aiming at a wide spectrum of users all over the world. That means certain restrictions in various countries have to be taken into account, otherwise its a no go there.

akdavis 11-27-2009 10:33 PM

Haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat others' ideas, but I'd like to throw some general ideas out, particularly in regards to those moments that have the greatest potential for excitement: the application of metal and high explosive to targets.

First, for any of these to be "holy sh!t" moments, the developers must first exercise some restraint. If, as in Il-2, every target suffers a catastrophic fate evey time it is destroyed, the potential for surprising moments diminshes with each minute of the game played. Every ship explodes and sinks in a matter of minutes (an exceedingly rare event in real life); every vehicle erupts in a multi-story fireball when straffed; every structure collapses completely when bombed, sometimes when the structure is not even enveloped in the explosion effect of the bomb. Every single target you attack suffers the most dramatic ending possible. The potential for surprise diminishes to zero.

So before I recommend some "oh sh!t" moments, first there needs to be more mundane potential outcomes. Sometimes vehicles should just burn or smoke, not explode. Sometimes structures should only suffer partial damage, perhaps just a hole or a collapsed wall, and there should always be dust/debris, but not necessarily fire. Ships should typically just burn and/or list while slowly sinking over the course of hours.

With that, here are some truly dramatic moments that could occur:

-If a train engine or steamship is struck with AP rounds or penetrating bomb, there should be a chance of a boiler explosion with attendant column of steam rocketing into the air.

-If a steel/concrete bridge is bombed, there should be only a small chance that an entire span will be dropped (when it happens it would be very dramatic).

-If a train car, truck or ship is carrying ammunition, there should be a chance that attack will result in an enormous and very violent explosion (see 0:54 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekXG_LO1_uM&NR=1). However, not every vehicle, train car or ship should act as if they are carrying ammunition.

-Likewise, there should be ammo dump or bunker structures with the same potential for catastrophic destruction.

-Flak and other infantry-served weapons on the ground should seldom explode. An explosion should be a surprising event. More typically, flak should simply be supressed (temporarily or permanently abandoned/unmanned).

-If a ship has a torpedo detonate underneath the middle of the hull, there should be a chance for the ship's back to break and split into two.

-A tank should only explode if its ammunition ignites, which should be a violent event with fire shooting out hatches or the turret displacing. Otherwise a tank should simply burn or be abandoned.

-parked aircraft should not have on/off damage models and should not typically explode.

-Not just armor, but most surfaces, including metal aircraft skin, should offer a chance of projectile deflection.

-damage to the bridge of a ship should potentially cause the ship to lose command (stop maneuvering, return fire less effectively); damage to the engine room or propellors should potentially cause loss of propulsion.

-In general, different fusing of bombs/rockets should result in a greater variety of outcomes on the target and "hit point" damage models should be abandoned wherever possible).

ECV56_Lancelot 11-28-2009 12:19 AM

Taking in consideration the observations just made by akdavis, which are absolutely true, my new suggestion would bë:

- Seeing a tank lossing its turret because of the exposion
- Seing a moving tank get its track (i think it the right term) get broken and start turning, until finally stop and be abandoned, if the crew is modeled. :)
- Seeing vehicles and objects being thrown in to the air due to explosions.
- If a ship explodes, parts of the ship being blown away in to the air.
- Trees being thrown away in radial pattern from the center of an explosion.

Foo'bar 11-28-2009 08:17 AM

@akdavis: very well said!

drafting posted this one some pages before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKomzCUZZDw

AdMan 11-29-2009 07:36 PM

Not sure if these have been mentioned or if already in the works but a couple ideas - I know vehicles like the tanks have opening doors and hatches, I hope to see these doors get blown open or completely off the hinges when they suffer a critical hit. Also when attacking a moving tank having a track suffer a critical hit and come off, leaving it "riding on rims" so to speak.

people fleeing a building or area as they hear bombs approaching or abandoning stations when coming under fire would add a cool factor

not sure how common brush fires were in Britain the summer of 1940, but coming a across one would add some interesting scenery and should be relatively easy to add in, A fire line being pushed along by the wind with scorched fields in it's wake.


maybe a little extra attention to damage of certain miscellaneous ground structures, It'd be cool to see something like water tower loose it's contents after being "accidentally" shot to pieces, or to shoot off the blades of a windmill.

EDIT: OK, tank ideas were being discussed a couple posts above this one, oops...long thread; didn't read

334th_Gazoo0 12-10-2009 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Specht (Post 119090)
Sudden engine failures even without taking any damage...

I would like this if it was related to the treatment of theaircraft, ie. Improperly warming up aircraft engine results in specific engine damage.

genbrien 12-10-2009 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECV56_Lancelot (Post 123383)
- Trees being thrown away in radial pattern from the center of an explosion.

Imagine how the CPU will hate you : 100 B17 with 20 bombs each........
major lag comming
:grin:

ECV56_Lancelot 12-10-2009 10:35 AM

Hey Luthier, it would be nice to hear if something good came up from this thread, and what ideas did you liked, if any.

Foo'bar 12-10-2009 10:36 AM

if any ;)

HenFre 12-10-2009 11:01 AM

if :grin:

ECV56_Lancelot 12-10-2009 02:49 PM

You are right, my two mistakes were both "if"!.

I should had said, "Tell us what will you include or otherwise you and your family will pay for this treachery"!!! :D

zakkandrachoff 12-10-2009 03:35 PM

I would like, when i fly over a some little town or a city, will have some little interference in the radio and listen some music, or listen enemy channel. And to interact since my fighter whit another group of fighters or bombers planes. also would be fine a conversations between your 2° and 3° wings of spitfires formation.

RAF74_Winger 12-11-2009 05:18 AM

S!

FWIW, it's not really a Holy Sh1t! experience, but in my real-world flying, one thing that gives me the shivers is popping above an overcast layer to find myself between two 8/8 layers. It really is the most otherworldly experience I've ever had.

You might also consider adding in the brocken spectre, which I've been fortunate enough to see on a few occasions:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2355/0690020.jpg

I can appreciate that it probably wouldn't be too easy to get the effect just right though.

You might also consider the green flash, I've never seen it, but I'm told it's spectacular from 30,000 feet.

W.

airmalik 12-11-2009 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAF74_Winger (Post 127331)
S!

You might also consider adding in the brocken spectre, which I've been fortunate enough to see on a few occasions:

W.

I didn't know there was a name for this. I saw my own 'brocken spectre' once when freefalling over a cloud layer. Neatest thing was when I fell right through it. Awesome experience!

vpmedia 12-11-2009 12:24 PM

auto generated recon photos in mission briefings + perhaps option to attach pictures from the hd (this was often mentioned in mission building topics, sorry if somebody already posted it, long thread)

ECV56_Lancelot 12-11-2009 02:16 PM

BIG smoke columns
 
Posted by zakkandrachoff in another thread.

Seeing this kind of smoke columns would realy give a HOLY $%?T experience! :-)

http://www.ausairpower.net/15th-AF-B...Refinery-1.jpg

Too bad something like that would bring any video card to its knees :(

Former_Older 12-13-2009 09:25 PM

Ilya, if you're still reading this-

look to some of the well-made user made campaigns that are out there for IL2:1946 for ideas on how to "break the monotony"

Former_Older 12-13-2009 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wutz (Post 122767)
With that kind of view a medic, ambulance or hospital, hospital ship, is a person, building or vehicle with a target painted on? People who think that way then also don´t mind randomly bumping off civilians, don´t matter they are enemy.....so why where people upset about Nanking, or the way POWs where threated by the Japanese??
Or the cases where downed allied aircrew where lynched in Germany. On your line of thinking all fair targets as they are enemy.

I don´t like that way of thinking at all.


You're taking it WAY out of context

USAAF pilots shot Luftwaffe pilots in their 'chutes. Fact. The Luftwaffe also did this to USAAF aircrew, but even when each side didn't do it, there was an ulterior motive: interrogation of captured aircrew

The USS Wahoo gunned down Japanese troops in the Pacific after it sank their ship, and the captain was commended- those troops didn't get to kill any Americans

Those examples are a FAR cry from dropping a stick of bombs on a Red Cross Hospital becasue "its full of the enemy". The trouble here is that some folks don't understand that while there is a logical conclusion to some points, logic doesn't HAVE to go all the way to the conclusion

Eldur 12-13-2009 11:44 PM

Seriously, get "X-Wing Alliance" and play it. This game does extremely well in this matter. You get a mission, but eventually unwanted things occur and you're doing something completely different then. Although Il-2 and SoW are simulations, a similar way of building missions can make it more exciting.
Generally, I'd would really like to see a 100% dynamic campaign similar to the one EF2000 had. Everywhere is something happening, and you take part in it. While you select to fly mission 1 out of 15, the other 14 are done by AI simultanously. That was a great campaign! But I fear this might be too stressful for our hardware with the high simulation fidelty SoW will have. But still, the missions could be built to be anything but "08/15".

This could be: You mission is to intercept some Heinkels... now the weather changes quickly and they're designated another target where you can't intercept them anymore. Instead you'll fly just CAP then and encounter a single recon plane you have to shoot down.
Or: You fly a mission (doesn't matter what) and when you return to you base you see how some Stukas attack it...
Or: You have to attack things with the Bf-110... another group of 109s spots a small bomber group with escort fighters and they'll engage the fighters and call you to intercept the bombers, because you're not so far away. Drop your bombs in the Channel and go Blenheim hunting instead :D

In short: Build some missions where things happen that aren't in the briefing, sudden changes of the situation, weather changes, vulchers, order changes and so on.

Former_Older 12-14-2009 01:15 AM

Triggers will make some of that possible- you fly to point "X", the weather gets worse. In a randomly determined number of minutes (this can be set by the trigger), one of a set of events (also determined by the trigger) will happen- nothing, enemy fighters, or an enemy obs. craft. At X minutes (set by the mission builder outside of a trigger), the ground control scrubs the mission, giving you an alternate goal

Also, some of what you describe can be done by simply lying to the player during the brief

The "Operation:Flashpoint" mission builder had some quite sophisticated tools and can almost do exactly what I describe above; I would very much hope Oleg and his team are aware of that type of thing, and if not- they should get a copy and look at the mission builder

AdMan 12-14-2009 02:16 AM

you people are out of your minds

Snuff_Pidgeon 12-14-2009 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdMan (Post 128138)
you people are out of your minds

.

ECV56_Lancelot 12-15-2009 11:08 AM

Give me some "holy sh... ideas"

Have graphics like this! :D
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...4949u10fg9.jpg

Posted by major_setback in another thread. :)

zakkandrachoff 12-15-2009 03:13 PM

Luth, you remember the first su-27 combat simulator? (my best 1997 to 2000)
look the missions, are complex, big, i want that, different types of missions at the time in different sectors, crossing each other. antis hip, bomber, intercept, photograph, escort, recognizing, a very complex scenery that takes many hours, so if we have in a hurry, we can land, take off go to another direction of a mission, land recharg weapons and fuel, take off again, and go to another direction, all in the same scenery buth with diferent missions to comply.

Another idea is, for example, in as de pikes of Jimenez, 2 bombers crossing in the channel. for example, we flying a He111 or JU-88 in a Raid to england and a engines' failure, so we go to home base, but in the trayect, we cross 2 wellington and we have the order of engage it!

Another is a for example, Stuka against Gladiator. I know that the gladiator was operational in the north of england, so in a small raid of stuka in a little port of the north, 3 gladiators take off and we need fight whit the stuka.
Whit a Bf-110 intercept England Bombers and then, when that mission of intercept as done, landing in a airfield, put fuel tanks in the wings and escort german bombers, and when that mission is over, why need to arrive back to the base , refuel and reload guns and intercept the hurries that that are intercepting others bombers or maybe stukas that come home from another raid.
Or a big range mission of a Bf-110 whit the information that for irland will pase away 1 suntherland whit a EEUU big range general and it will landing in some place in the west-north coast of England and we need shooting down in the middle of the night and escape of the Hurricanes to the channel, when we will have Bf-109 air support.

Hope that in the airfield we can change our armament on the plane. That is the only problem of the old Su-27 Flanker for that time.

I have some Old “As de Pique” 1970 comic strip. I going to found you some nice missions.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7yMLj8QWQg...00/As%2B02.JPG

vpmedia 12-16-2009 08:01 AM

I'd rather recommend books like the JG26 war diary for mission ideas not a comic book :)

zakkandrachoff 12-16-2009 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vpmedia (Post 128855)
I'd rather recommend books like the JG26 war diary for mission ideas not a comic book :)

yes, sure, .. i think you only want is take off with the spit when de raid bomber are just flying up to you, shot a little and go sleep. For that is Birds Of Prey or Wings of Prey.
I am talking here about that i want complex missions

wannabetheace 12-17-2009 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhunter2112 (Post 119658)
This thread got me to sign in again and make a comment - probly 2 years since that happened.

Historical is the key for me. The missions probably were very similar. You were not a fighter pilot one day and a bomber pilot the next. Even the fighters were trained in certain areas and armed as such. But it's a game so...

What I want to see. A mission with a soul. Just a little tidbit of info came get you into the flight. Your wingman is a noob...watchout for him. Topcover for a HE115 searescue of a fellow pilot. Running into an ace you have been briefed on. Scramble for takeoff.. a damaged bomber is heading slowly back over the Channel to France...get it .. cover arrive
historical radio chatter.


I want to make a kill/damaged claim after a mission.

Well, I agree with the idea that a mission with a soul.

Here is my 2cent.
How about encountering with enemy ace who is teasing you. Of course he should be top class ace like German Hans Joachim Marseille or French ace Marcel Albert :). Moreover he is in perfect position to shoot you down but doesn't want an easy kill or he just fed up with killing rookies so he just decided to play and make fun of you :grin:. Finally he wave at you and let you live and banks away or some kind like friend&foe just to show some individual's personality.

And you can meet him again where his plane is damaged and it's your choice to finish him off or give him a treat you owe..etc

vpmedia 12-17-2009 08:08 AM

unpredictable random events & long term playability is what every game needs

(this is where even the big development firms fail, for example for me CoD6 was one day fun and now I'm back to IL-2 1946, 5th year)

Tbag 12-17-2009 09:48 AM

As has been mentioned before: A good AI crew in multiseat aircraft would be awesome. Gunners telling you where other aircraft are, probably commenting on the battlefield/target, flight engineer giving damage reports, bombardier who gives instructions to the pilot.

Tbag 12-17-2009 10:36 AM

I posted this a while ago but since you are busy with the mission briefings and such I thought I might post it again:

Original weather-briefing from of the former Luftwaffe:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9...berichtuw5.jpg

Feathered_IV 12-17-2009 11:51 AM

Some good suggestions from people. Although I've noticed there has been not further indication that any of this has been noted by the devs. :(

I've been thinking about different roles that a player could have in online and offline play. It sometimes seems that Maddox Games does not think very deeply about other objectives beyond pew-pew/bang-crump. Hopefully this is a false impression though!

Below is how I hope a different type of objective might play out:


Art/Obs in SoW


May 1940, Somewhere (online) in France...


You log into a game and see that a mission is well under way. Ignoring the usual choices of fighter and bombers, you choose a Storch to fly from a forward airfield. Today you will be spotting for the Feldartillerie...

Artillery Observation is one of the most lucrative roles in SoW online play, but also one of the most risky. The number of points earned from directing a successful barrage can be astronomical. However it requires the player to loiter in a known area for extended periods, inviting attack from opposing flights. Other players are merciless when they find an observation plane in the combat area, and will stop at nothing to bring them down. Their points for destroying you are higher than average. Likewise, your points deducted for being brought down are also well above the norm.

As you pass over the artillery position, you can see that only one out of the six guns are firing. Good! Those are just ranging shots. It means that this battery hasn't been directed onto target yet.

Circling the guns, you hit the Tab key and open the text menu in a way very similar to the old Il-2. There are new options in there and special categories dedicated to different roles and mission objectives. The Tab key, 1 then 8 and you are in the Mission Selection sub-category. The defaults are simple fighter & bomber roles, with others such as recon, nightfighter etc. to choose from. You select option #5 - Artillery Observation. At once the HUD menu text turns from blue to black, signifying the change of role. The Tab menu now features mission specific options that allow you to direct the artillery onto their target. Doing this in proximity to this particular artillery unit will bind your commands to it. Other players will be doing likewise with other positions along the front line.

Some time later and you arrive over the designated target - a railway marshalling yard packed with rolling stock. You come in for a close look, but bank away almost immediately as a spray of light AAA is directed towards you. The place seems unharmed. Indeed, you can see the ranging shots from the artillery gun sending up huge clods of earth near a canal almost a mile to the east. Keeping just out of range and throttling back to conserve your engine (you may need every ounce of power later on) you get to work....

The trick is to orientate yourself in relation to the artillery battery and the target. Then to feed corrections to the gun and "walk" the ranging shots onto the target. Once this is done, you can call on the whole battery to bring down the Ten Minutes of Hate that will annihilate it.

Sounds simple? Trouble is, the artillery isn't perfectly accurate. You need to give an incremental correction (via the Tab menu) and wait to observe a few shots to deduce the average result. Once done, you can move the fire further up/down/left/right in the manner of a grid. Don't try to move it too far at once though, or the fire can wander way off the mark. Patience is the key, but it's not easy when you also need to keep out of range of the defences, watch for enemy fighters and avoid collecting a tree in the face.

Several minutes later and you are still working hard. You've walked the shells in a wavering line right into the fields just behind the rail yard. One more correction should do it...

Amazing you haven't been intercepted yet. Respawning players must have seen your position marked on the situation map (another first for SoW). Even now, there must be several enemy fighters speeding for your position. The hairs on the back of your neck stand up as you get "that feeling".
You've worn out you welcome here and your luck won't last much longer.

The next shell lands on the station house, carrying away a corner of the wall and a section of roof. A second shell lands on the tracks between two goods wagons. That's it! You've got them now. Hitting the Tab key again, you put in the commands to call down the fire from the entire battery.

There are three little specks approaching low on the horizon. As you turn away and make a run for home, the entire marshalling yard seems to rise into the air. A stream of Target Destroyed messages are scrolling down the right hand side of the screen. A good job. If you can get back to base safely, you'll make a real killing today...

ECV56_Lancelot 12-17-2009 02:25 PM

You certainly make it look like fun Feathered! :)

Mango 12-17-2009 03:34 PM

Note to Oleg: Hire Feathered IV on as a mission consultant! It'll pay off in spades, and we'll all be greatful! :grin::grin::grin:

airmalik 12-18-2009 12:04 AM

Feathered, you really should be on Oleg's payroll! I'd love to play such a mission.

Romanator21 12-18-2009 04:39 AM

Excellent!

Feathered_IV 12-18-2009 11:11 AM

Hi Mango, it's been ages! :grin:

I'm glad that other people also find some of these ideas interesting. I'm certainly not in the employ of Maddox Games though. Indeed, there is no indication that MG plan anything other than the same old stuff that has gone on before. Perhaps I'll expand on some of these things and speak to the Rise of Flight team instead...

Tbag 12-18-2009 02:05 PM

Again, I'm sure that it's been proposed before:

- An inflight-map that I can draw on and which contains notes from the briefing (or in full-real you have to draw the notes yourself during the briefing).

- I know animations are very far down the list but at some later stage: Crewmembers asking for permission to smoke/eat on long distance flights.

- Getting diverted to another airfield if the weather is too bad at the home field

Borsch 12-18-2009 04:06 PM

Incorporate SNEAKING into flight!

Sneak up on a sleeping morning airbase - could be alone for one mission, with an active wingman for another, and with a whole squadron in a third (explsions ahoy!).

Use scripting to allow player take out planes during take off from the base - very satisfying!

Recreate the Hartmann momment where he sneaked on two planes
performing acrobatics for the troops entrainment and crashed their party.

Make bouncing a completely unsuspecting escort a reality. Eg fly on a hunting mission like germans did against early war soviets. Drop on the first and torch it before it realised you were there (AI needs to be not omniscient like it is in IL2). then use energy advantage to dispatch the other 2 (Soviets flew in 3s in beginning).

Sneak in low level fog and attack a heavily escorted transport plane with an enemy general. quickly hide/ escape in the fog after your attack.

BOunce a huge and very tight formation of bombers and drop a bomb on one (like german pilot Knocke) to cause it crash into other bombers - domino effect. Scripting needed for that one.

Dive thorough big formation of enemy fighters with all guns blazing ( Marseille's style) causing some of its pilots o loose control and crash into each other.

With Soviets and Americans patroling the same sky, sneak up on one, attack and watch them shoot/fight each other in confusion!

zodiac 12-19-2009 12:45 AM

what about a flamethrower?
 
I remember reading somthing about a german experiment with flamethrowers that they put on the back of some DO-17s as defence weapon. I believe the goal was to keep fighters at a distance and/or blind them by smoke and light. I think those Dorniers were on the big raid of 15 september. The effect of the new weapon was not that impressive (RAF pilots often thought it were just burning bombers) and I don't think it made some kills back then...

But I think that in the sim it woud come as a real suprise to face a dornier like that. If you play the whole campaign,a player udually has developed a kind of routine tactic for approaching a DO-17. Trying not to end up in a sudden fireball would be a nice and unexpected feature in that mission.

I've only seen some pictures of he-111's and ju-88's equiped with flamethrowers, but it seems that there wasn't much visible of that weapon on the surface of the plane. I think only a small tube was visible, coming out of the tail. So, good news if it should be modelled ;)

To give you an idea how the fireburst looked like, there are some pictures of it at the bottom of this page:

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/...te/waffen2.htm

Blackdog_kt 12-19-2009 11:57 PM

Feathered's ideas are excellent once again, plus his narrative puts you right in the action. For me the top 3 would be:

1) Believable AI and a solid communication system:
Incorporate the kind of modular and mission specific commands that Feathered describes in the player's interaction with the AI, whether that AI are wingmen, ground control, ground troops, crew members or other friendly units.

2) Realistic start-up sequences and systems modelling, with the possibility of later mods/add-ons for optional clickable cockpits:
Despite certain shortcomings in the FS series, FSX does a pretty good job at this. Even if the buttons are hidden under the yoke, you can cycle the camera to the appropriate cockpit spot to press switches or take a closer look at hard to reach instruments. RoF does this well too, pause the TrackIR if you have one, move your viewpoint via the assigned keyboard functions and save it in your presets, which are by the way aircraft specific. This could be toggle or snap view. So for example, pressing keypad 8 in a fighter gives you a zoomed-in view of the gunsight, pressing it in the bomber's pilot seat zooms in on the primary flight instruments and doing the same while in the bomb aimer's seat will give you a look through the bombsight, or through the drift-meter when you are on the navigator's position.

Of course, this doens't have to be a click-everything-yourself affair if you don't want to. Just like in FSX and Black Shark, there should be an automatic engine start and shutdown sequence BUT it should also go through the full checklist and the engine might not fire up if it's cold, you might need to dilute the oil first or ask the ground crew to feed some warmed up oil into the engine. Then, you should have to pay attention to how the engine works and warm it up properly. Imagine this when flying a scramble with enemy fighters approaching, interesting stuff.

Also, please use the rated power settings as per the manufacturer's instructions whenever possible. Just because the Spit can make 25lbs of boost or the 190 can reach 1.4 ata manifold pressure, doesn't mean it was possible to run the engine at those settings forever like we can in IL2. For example, the maximum sustained rating for most Spits was 8lbs and similarly, the FW190 was, if i remember correctly, rated at 1.2 for climbs and 1.4 was used only in emergencies for 5 minutes or so. Ideally, we wouldn't need "throttle:100%" messages, but we should be opening our kneepad if we don't remember the values off-hand (see below), check the recommended power settings, advance throttles until the manifold gauge shows the desired readout, adjust prop-pitch to the desired RPM and that's it. The RPM needle would dance a bit back and forth before stabilising and the manifold pressure would slowly drop as we climbed, making it necessary to push the throttle forward a bit more every few thousand feet gained, but that's how real aircraft fly too.

The bottom line is that we need to get past the point of modelling only the aircraft behaviour and consequent tactics and finally start modelling the systems in some detail, putting the gauge back in the game. It makes flying more complicated and rewarding, gives you something to do that has a real impact on the outcome of your mission instead of just flying along a certain heading until you reach the target, it's an extra incentive to interact with your AI crew or human co-pilots in multi-crewed aircraft and it will make you think more and plan ahead on how you conduct your attacks in single-seaters. For example, the P47 is much more powerful than the Fw190 up high, but the 190 is fully automatic while the P47 needs some careful monitoring of the turbochargers and so on.

If you to know what i'm really talking about, search youtube for the P47 add-on for FSX made by A2A simulations and make sure you view the videos of the accu-sim enhanced aircraft, the way they model the aircraft's systems are superb. For multi-crewed aircraft, their Boeing Stratocruiser with the accu-sim patch is also very well done. It's a four engined plane and each engine presents some variance in temperatures, produced power and generally in how their systems operate, just like in real life. Your throttles are all in the same position, but engine 1 might be running a little hotter than the rest, the turbocharger on engine 3 might be running a bit hot as well and you have your hands full just flying the plane. Luckily, you have crewmen to monitor such things and report to help you out, the flight engineer can take care of calibrating the turbochargers for you and the co-pilot will call out the appropriate speeds and call "rotate" during your take-off run.

Having something similar in SoW would make flying multi-crewed and mutli-engined aircraft much more interesting and rewarding, plus it would make flying fighters something that requires a bit more caution. With all these systems modelled there's a good chance that a careless pilot might break his engine before the enemy has a chance to do it themselves, which will lead to more cautious and realistic flying on everyone's part.

3) Navigation maps, charts, notes, kneepad and a thorough briefing:
This would obviously tie in with the previous two points, as in mutlti-crewed aircraft you could let the AI do the navigation and just give you vectors to correct your course. You could switch to the navigator's position and look at the map yourself, or you could open the communication menu by pressing TAB and ask him to give you a fix on your position, ETA to the next waypoint and so on. Let's have the appropriate systems as well, communication radios to tune to the correct frequencies, direction fiding equipment and radio-navigation aids that fit the time period in question.

As for the briefing, take a look at this documentary of RAF bomber command night operations. That guy has about a dozen sliding blackboards full of info and each crewmember needs to take note of different things. It also features a post-op debrief:
http://www.factualtv.com/documentary/Nightbombers

Ideally, when flying you should be able to open your dossier and view anything from aircraft checklists to mission briefing to personal notes. These notes could be made during the briefing or even during the mission, on top of the original briefing material, the nav map or a blank piece of paper. Just give us an in-flight notebook and some colored pencils, so we can note down the radio frequencies we need to use or mark that new flak battery on the map for another flight to suppress tomorrow.

As for the maps and charts, i'm thinking of the usual ingame map, zoomable and slewable, but with some extra perks. For example, having separate charts showing the layout of friendly bases, tower frequencies, available facilities and the usual approaches would be good. That is because when flying an expansion 3-4 years from now, your battered Lancaster makes it back to England at 3am and it's pitch black with fog, you can take a look at the map and pick the nearest airbases, look them up in their airfield specific charts and request to divert to one with big runways and a FIDO defogging system.

Sitting on the navigator's bench should not just mean that you look through the side window, since you should have a couple of slide-rulers to make conversions and calculations with, plus some plotting tools. I'm thinking something along the lines of Silent Hunter III, with a compass, a ruler and a protractor to measure angles and be able to draw up a flight plan, even on the fly when actually flying the mission if the need arises. In IL2 the gyro compass might automatically point to the next waypoint, but in reality you have to set the heading bug and estimate the distances yourself, or with the aid of your navigator/copilot.

Of course, this would make flying single seaters all the more challenging, as it would also mean that you are either good enough to fly visually and not get lost, rely on the heavies you are escorting for guidance, or you have made a good flight plan before having to engage the enemy. You can't really draw pretty lines on the map with a 109 on your six over occupied Europe, but you can do it before the flight, while the rest of the wing is taxiing to take-off positions or even during the climb-out over the North Sea when things are still calm, using the base briefing material that the sim always supplies you with on each flight as a start. Having a lobby within the server where players can draw up detailed briefings in multiplayer, make notes and distribute it to others will come in handy too.


Now i know some of this stuff seems like too much, some might not be top priorities and all would take quite some time to come to fruition. I'm fully aware of that, i'm not in a hurry and i'm not expecting them to be in the boxed game on release day. However, i would be very delighted to see them come along as the sim progresses, since it will add a totally new dimension to prop-era combat flight sims. I've been having a go at some civilian flying on a friend's PC, he's got FSX and some quality payware add-ons and to tell you the truth, i realised that there's so much involved to actually just flying the plane, any plane, monitoring the various systems and navigating within certain rules and procedures, that i'm missing it on combat flight sims now. I think we should go towards combining these intricacies of flying a plane into the combat flight sim genre, so that just flying around over the countryside in a Hurricane, or buzzing Abeville in a 109 will be an involving, satisfying task in and of itself, long before the shooting even begins. ;)

robtek 12-20-2009 12:49 PM

I'll drink to that!!!

AdMan 12-21-2009 02:12 AM

some people need to look up the word "moment"

Blackdog_kt 12-21-2009 02:53 AM

Well, you have a point there, but since this has turned into a general wishlist thread and various people are coming up with some very cool ideas, i thought i might group what i found most interesting, add some personal dressing and serve in the interest of some more food for thought.

It might not be moments, but having those moments in a non-scripted (scripted=predictable after a while) fashion requires laying down certain game mechanics beforehand. I'd rather they released a stable, working game and then gradually patch into it some sandbox-type game mechanics and accurate systems and operating procedures modelling, instead of for example simply adding some scripted events with a random chance. Scripting means that you need to define each and every occurence yourself. It's faster initially but limits your scope to these 4-5, or 20 effects that you specifically coded. After a while it's "oh,look, that bailing out opponent is giving me a salute again" or "i'm bored with my no2 wingman being the only one who has random engine problems, why doesn't no3 or no4 ever get one?" and so on

Laying down game mechanics however broadens the scope considerably. It's more work to do initially, because you need to define certain variables and how they interact with one another. However, after doing that you can then let them run wild on their own, depending on the greatest randomizing function of all, player input. There's no need to script much at all if you get accurate systems and failures, because half of the time something will invariably come up due to player error under combat stress, enemy action or a combination of both. ;)

Ernst 12-21-2009 04:16 PM

BlackDog,

You resumed in your two last post all features that a 'hardcore' player (grognard) would want. However it ll be interesting, regard the presence of clickable cockipts, possibility to assign some of this commands to keyboard buttons too (ex. flaps, pitch, trim and other resources commonly used in combat) for faster use.

But your ideia is very cool!:cool:

Blackdog_kt 12-21-2009 04:45 PM

Of course, there should be keyboard/HOTAS assignments for all of the primary functions. I mean, when i fly MSFS on my buddy's PC i never click and drag the throttles,mixture levers, or flaps, i do it with the stick throttle and keyboard.

However, there are lots of systems and functions to model and at some point you run out of keyboard combinations or they become too complicated to remember. That's where clickpits help, because you can keep adding systems without having to worry if the pilot will have enough keys to use them.

For example, the easiest and most often used case is setting the instruments for the course you need to fly. You could do it with the keyboard too, but i just look where the gauge is, pause the TrackIR with a button on the stick to keep the picture steady, place the mouse pointer over the little knob on the gyro compass and roll the mouse wheel...voila, the indicator of the desired heading moves left or right, depending on whether i roll the wheel up or down. Sometimes functions like these provide a faster and more precise control than having to press the same key combination 15 times, like using the trim wheels for example.

The thing is, mouse activated controls should not be primary controls because clicking with the mouse is slower than pressing a key or two (can you imagine having to click the gun trigger on the stick with your mouse? of course not :-P ). However, they are very useful for controls that you don't use all the time and most importantly, things you don't use during combat but are also part of your aircraft, because that means less key combinatios for you to remember. If there's a complex engine start procedure according to real life aircraft manuals for example, there's no reason not to use a mouse. You only need to start the engine at the start of the mission (hopefully), so i guess it's easier to just click through the switches than setup and memorize 4-10 new keyboard assignments ;)

Alien 12-21-2009 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zodiac (Post 129786)
I remember reading somthing about a german experiment with flamethrowers that they put on the back of some DO-17s as defence weapon. I believe the goal was to keep fighters at a distance and/or blind them by smoke and light. I think those Dorniers were on the big raid of 15 september. The effect of the new weapon was not that impressive (RAF pilots often thought it were just burning bombers) and I don't think it made some kills back then...

But I think that in the sim it woud come as a real suprise to face a dornier like that. If you play the whole campaign,a player udually has developed a kind of routine tactic for approaching a DO-17. Trying not to end up in a sudden fireball would be a nice and unexpected feature in that mission.

I've only seen some pictures of he-111's and ju-88's equiped with flamethrowers, but it seems that there wasn't much visible of that weapon on the surface of the plane. I think only a small tube was visible, coming out of the tail. So, good news if it should be modelled ;)

To give you an idea how the fireburst looked like, there are some pictures of it at the bottom of this page:

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/...te/waffen2.htm

I think you mean THAT:



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