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Feuerfalke 03-20-2008 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sulan- (Post 38115)
I think the change of the view perspective (ie, the more G's, the more your pilots head lowers)+force feedback+sound gives a good enough hint.
But a G-meter on the speedbar as an option would be very nice me thinks...

Agreed - the headmovement and the decreasing field of view are very good indicators for G-forces. Maybe we'll also see an effect on the audible sensors in BoB? AFAIK while blacking out you can hearing range slightly decreases, but when your vision is gone, you usually have a few seconds left, where you can at least partially control your movements, while you hear less and less until you finally pass out completely.
In real life, this sort of blackout is even more dangerous, as you will die after a few seconds exposed to this condition. AFAIK in IL2 it is only simulated that you not just wake up after you sustained that high Gs for a longer time.

IvanK 03-20-2008 10:13 PM

"In real life, this sort of blackout is even more dangerous"

I disagree. I spent 12 years of my life in the High environment. Few G events result in death ... unless you hit the ground in the "dark phase".

Many confuse Blackout with the relatively new phenomena of G LOC they are very different things.

What does it really look like ? The first phase is the Greying out phase. This appears as a relatively slow reduction in Field of view and reduction in clarity of vision. A good M1 strain manoeuver can just "Push" the reduced field of vision away...but only as long as you can hold the strain.

Increase the G (or sustain it) and eventually you loose vision however for a significant period you can still here and feel what is going on. You can still put control input in ... so a reduction of G is possible and a return to normal vision. You don't just loose the plot.

In the case of G LOC the whole process is a lot more rapid with a genuine loss of consciousness. Following a G LOC event the recovery time is significant (30 + seconds). Victims describe this recovery as a period of total dis orientation with little effective aircraft control being possible.So in effect for the entire G LOC period and recovery the aeroplane is in effect pilot less.

G LOC is relatively new as it only really came to be talked about with the advent of early relaxed stability fighters (F16,F20 etc.) Early on a number of hard to investigate crashes occurred the most public being the F20 display crash in Newfoundland. After the investigations G LOC became a real phenomena. G LOC in general is a result of large G forces being applied at a rate beyond the human body's capability to counter it. These G onset rates just could not be achieved by most conventional (i.e normal positive stability) aircraft. The advent of computer controlled fly by wire (yes no computer FBW exists as well) allowed relaxed stability. This coupled with computer assistance (G and AOA limiters) allowed incredible G onset rates to be generated with little fear of over stress or structural damage.

In a conventional aeroplane you need to "feed" the G on so as not to over stress the aeroplane. With a G limiter you can simply pull hard back on the stick as hard and as fast as you like with little fear of overstress or structural breakup. Couple this with relaxed stability and the G onset rate is eye watering. It is in this area where G LOC lives.

Few if any WWII aeroplanes had the ability to generate G at a rate fast enough to induce G LOC. What we see in IL2 is IMO quite well done and represents blackout not G LOC. Even in the IL2 blackout phase some control is possible (trim primarily). Personally I think it takes a little to long to restore normal vision in response to a reduction in G in IL2 but all in all its pretty good.

What would G read out bring to IL2 ? Other than in those aircraft that had G meters ? Apart from not being historically correct not much. In a fight (in a non G limiter aeroplane) pilots refer to the G meter to stay within structural limits. You don't generally use the G meter to gauge turn performance. How hard you turn is a function of the BFM problem you have to solve. Target motion across your field of view being a prime cue as to how hard you need to pull. In IL2 structural load limits are not part of the general FM (except in P51). In a G Limiter equipped aeroplane even G limits become a little academic. G meters are used for some short duration manoeuvers like a 4G pull in an air to ground weapons delivery manouever or a 4g pull in certain pitch events (TAC turns etc). Or a sly glance following a limiter pull to see that the limiter really did do its job :)

G meters are a fine performance instrument in the world of aerobatics. Or sustained turn demonstrations.

My 2Roubles worth

Spinnetti 03-21-2008 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuff_Pidgeon (Post 38022)
"If a force form 4 to 6 G is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout." In game you have a gradual blacking or redding out, so no need for a scale.

No, not really true... I went up in a aerobatic plane and did sustained 6 g turns according to the cockpit Gee meter (not like minutes, but it wasn't that hard to take, and it was my first time experiencing it).. yea, it felt funny, and my arms and head got real heavy, but there was no risk of blacking out any time soon. Google on it, and people can take quite a bit more. Anyway, the game simulates (oversimulates?) that pretty good anyway as you mentioned.

II./JG1_Wilcke 03-21-2008 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spinnetti (Post 38323)
No, not really true... I went up in a aerobatic plane and did sustained 6 g turns according to the cockpit Gee meter (not like minutes, but it wasn't that hard to take, and it was my first time experiencing it).. yea, it felt funny, and my arms and head got real heavy, but there was no risk of blacking out any time soon. Google on it, and people can take quite a bit more. Anyway, the game simulates (oversimulates?) that pretty good anyway as you mentioned.

Agreed, and with a daily dose of 6G's the body will physiologically adapt....really when the grey begins and you loose the color its just the airplane telling you to "let go of the stick dummy". I really don't know how I would implement this in a flight sim. I feel that some elements are realistic in IL-2 but others are rather....for the lack of a better word....unexplainable....I guess I would have to ask the developer what his rationale was for that...but then again. Time to move on.


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