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-   IL-2 Sturmovik (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=98)
-   -   Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=17538)

House M.D. 12-05-2010 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaelu (Post 202535)
The FMB should be more "available" to new players or players with less time to study it thoroughly.

IL-2 FMB had many many limitations that were bypass by experienced builders only or even with external tools.

BoB shouldn't have this. BoB should have an explosion of new missions created by as many players as possible. And this is not possible with a FMB that looks like the insides of a nuclear bomb.

Let me make a comparison,

First 3ds max versions were pretty capable in pro's hands... but a lot of creativity was held off by it's hard interface. Once the interface had became more intuitive a lot of new creations had appear from the hands of people that normally would do nothing in the first versions.

FMB should have more appealing interface... those old WIN95 style windows can be changed in few minutes by an artist so they look more 2010 and not like a "oops... this looks dangerous, let's close it".
FMB should have a lot of buttons visible for quick access and not the necessity to click 2-3 menus and tick cryptic options. Contextual pop up menus, buttons, etc.

Take a look at modern game sandbox editors... many are a pleasure to work with and inspire creativity... sure a craw bar can beat nails in the head like a modern colorful rubberized handle hammer... but the kid that would help you normally is just not attracted by the job.

A good starting point would be a merge between DCS "FMB" and IL-2 FMB.
A lot of valid points by zaelu, a man who knows what he's talking about.

I won't say more, because these screenshot don't tell us everything and maybe the release product is something different than what we think at this moment.

But yes, I think that all of us who've created missions in FMB know its problems and hope to see them solved in BoB.

Of course, we all know (and maybe Oleg and team use this advantage) that there are a lot of people who would spend hundreds of hours in FMB or developing 3rd party tools, in order to bypass original FMB's problems.

All in all, even if we only get the same 10+ years old FMB, there will be people willing to spend their time for the good of the community.

But, closing as started, we have to wait because these assumptions are based in a few screenshots and not a detailed analysis of new (hopefully) FMB.

kendo65 12-05-2010 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by House M.D. (Post 202561)
...

I won't say more, because these screenshot don't tell us everything and maybe the release product is something different than what we think at this moment.

...

All in all, even if we only get the same 10+ years old FMB, there will be people willing to spend their time for the good of the community.

But, closing as started, we have to wait because these assumptions are based in a few screenshots and not a detailed analysis of new (hopefully) FMB.
I think from reading Oleg's comments that any changes will be minor - colours and (maybe) the style of windows. The basic structure of the fmb will remain as shown - for reasons given already - familiarity and ease of adaptation for people experienced in il2 fmb.

I think also, that a change of gui to something very slick and modern looking will not reduce the unavoidable complexity that arises from having so many different variables to control - the underlying wealth of detail and options will still be overwhelming to some. A gui change is not a panacea. Probably more useful would be better documentation on how to use it.

Also, I personally don't want to wait another 6 months for the gui to be rebuilt from scratch.

nearmiss 12-05-2010 06:02 PM
A note on briefings

We have always needed a more structured approach to creating briefing documents. Having pre-sets on drop down entry selectors for time of day, weather, etc. Having a dedicated block for Mission ID, Mission description
In other words we need an efficient way to create briefings that have several consistent possible values, along with a lengthly description.

Combat briefings should be formatted wiht basic criteria to all missions, with a text box for elaborating on the description of the mission. Each mission briefing always requires specific information that pretty well applies to all mission briefings. A large text entry box could complete the briefing package,

This is an important issue. Any mission builder can tell you just how time consuming and tedious it becomes after spending so much time actually building each mission... then having to create briefing decriptions.

I see the briefing mentioned in the GUI, but I don't really know how far that goes or just what it means.

All it would basically require is a text editor with some pre-sets and a large text box to create consistent briefing documents.

BadAim 12-05-2010 06:03 PM
I'm with the guys who like the minimal changes to the GUI. It's really not all that hard to use the system in IL2 once you have built a few missions with it. It looks like SOW will be a real step up, remember guys, a familiar GUI does not necessarily mean familiar problems. Half of the trouble I've ever had was getting the AI to behave, and that really isn't an FMB problem anyway. It looks to me like a lot of the rest have been addressed. I'm looking forward to cut 'n paste, and it looks like we'll have a lot more interaction with the AI through the FMB (and I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll be smart enough to follow the instructions.

So far I like what I see, but please, please Oleg make sure we can see a description of the objects, and not just a number. I would also like to have infinitely nestable folders for missions, and not just a couple levels like we have in IL2. (as a matter of fact it would be nice if we could build our own folder structure for the objects and such)

BadAim 12-05-2010 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearmiss (Post 202597)
A note on briefings

We have always needed a more structured approach to creating briefing documents. Having pre-sets on drop down entry selectors for time of day, weather, etc. Having a dedicated block for Mission ID, Mission description
In other words we need an efficient way to create briefings that have several consistent possible values, along with a lengthly description.

Combat briefings should be formatted wiht basic criteria to all missions, with a text box for elaborating on the description of the mission.

This is an important issue. Any mission builder can tell you just how time consuming and tedious it becomes after spending so much time actually building each mission... then having to create briefing decriptions.

I see the briefing mentioned in the GUI, but I don't really know how far that goes or just what it means.
Yeah, It would be nice if the FMB just threw the basic info into the quick brief for us like no. of planes, basic types, etc. then we can always elaborate if we want.

brando 12-05-2010 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadAim (Post 202601)
Yeah, It would be nice if the FMB just threw the basic info into the quick brief for us like no. of planes, basic types, etc. then we can always elaborate if we want.
Yeah, I gave up writing long and interesting briefings for the Co-op crowd 'cos hardly anyone reads them! ;)

Personally it's gratifying to see the shape of the new FMB is not radically different from the IL2 original. Learning the new settings and applying them onto a well-known framework will be better than trying to learn a whole new system, and I hope to be writing missions quite early on.
Another point is that I expect to still be flying FB after Storm of War commences - specifically 4.10 and UP - which is another good reason to have a similar FMB setup.

Thanks for this exciting update,

Brando

Insuber 12-05-2010 07:21 PM
Hi Oleg,

Nice updare... Speaking about interface, I have a simple request to facilitate navigation: in the minimap when flying, or before takeoff one should be able to draw lines between waypoints with mouse click and draw, getting distances and headings. simple yet very useful.

Cheers,
Insuber

O_Smiladon 12-05-2010 07:21 PM
S! Guys,

I like the fact that the FMB is not far off from the IL2 MB, reason being that yes it is a very easy MB to learn and not so technical. I fly Rise Of Flight as well and there MB is very complicated to learn but still very good.

So that fact the learning curve is not going to be so steep is a good thing IMO so well done Oleg and keep up the good work.

Merry Christmas Oleg to you and your family and your team.

O_Smiladon

7IAP_Maxel 12-05-2010 07:48 PM
Hello Oleg, thank you for the surprise you gave us for these weekends.

There are some ideas and concerns I would like to share with you and readers.
  1. It would be so nice to have few options to save .mis file in both ways, binary and in plain text. Encrypted binary .mis file with password that even the host can not be able to look up into the mission waypoint, aircraft types, directions, qty and e.t.c..
  2. It would be so nice if the briefings would be in UTF-8 or UTF-16 encoding. BBCodes would be also nice to see…
  3. As I can see the waypoint displays only # of the route. (See pic. #shot_20101203_155528 copy.jpg) would be nice to see an interpolated speed and altitude of the group and/or single aircraft(s). Desired to see the speed in Km/h or mph or feet for airborn, naval and ground units (I am sorry, but in Il2 speed in meters per sec. looks useless).
  4. The editable text line console below the map would be amazing and highly desirable. By placing any unit on the map would put a text line in the console.
  5. Version, author, revisions, and dates tags inside plain text of the .mis file highly desirable.
  6. It seems that the left scroller has been inherited from il2. Can you please to assign Map’s zoom in/out functions for the mouse scroll wheel? Shift + Mouse Rectangle drag is also highly desirable.
  7. I know that the map at certain zoom levels (usually after 65%) displays as 3d map. It would be so nice to have export to .png file highly zoom able detailed map.
  8. Can we able to select and save export/import the group of the objects? Let say I have to put few trees, few ground units, some static units and few human figurines. I want to save this scene and export as named preset in order to use this preset in future. Or it would be so nice to have a repository for the convenience all of FMB developers in order to have the possibility export and import these presets.
  9. Is it possible to introduce the script code language inside missions? If Bf109-E3 in range [1Km..5Km] and qty <= 4 then spawn(type:Spitfire5, qty:4, skills:veteran, action:intercept) else lookup(AAGun, 4, veteran)
  10. Is it possible to make a recon mission for the AI recon aircraft with possibility to take b/w photo shots and then insert these photo snap shots in to other missions?

Oleg, wish you the best to you and your team.

nearmiss 12-05-2010 08:02 PM
Oleg, if possible.

Allow beta release of limited version of SOW to a few competent mission builder enthusiasts. It could be a very limited beta that is just FMB with SOW data to work with.

You could save alot of time. I know there are some MB who have been building missions for close to 10 years who would be pleased to help.

You could get some very good input from the people who know the finer points and issues of mission building using the IL2 FMB and 3rd party FMB tools.

This would allow you to get some very excellent information about the FMB tool you plan to release. It would provide you information you really need as far as the capabilities of the FMB usage from people who have years of experience with it.

I'm sure you could count on IL2 MB users to pitch in help.


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