Official Fulqrum Publishing forum - Thoughts about Friday's update

Official Fulqrum Publishing forum (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/index.php)

- IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)

- - Thoughts about Friday's update (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=34421)

Good post zapista ( http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=125 )

Many people here don't or won't grasp the reality of the current situation. Their frustration, like mine, is understandable but the continuous unrelenting complaining about the same things won't change anything and as you say will deter newcomers from the series. Everyone knows CoD was full of problems on release and everyone knows not everything will be fixed but it is still here and so are 1C MG.

I have just two concerns now:

1. The FMs for the CoD aircraft must be improved and that is all it will take to make CoD unique aspects acceptable because all core improvements will be overlaid by the sequel (they could also release some of those as a patch later on for 'CoD only' users). I'm not an off-line player and I understand the campaigns are lousy (?) but that is something the community can fix and would have to anyway once people got bored with the out-of-the-box campaigns.

2. You talked about a bug tracker, well as you also said we have one already but the devs don't read it. It was a fairly clean tracker with objective reporting mostly substantiated by in-game and historical evidence. It was mostly free of the usual ping-pong attacks and ego mongering (probably because certain people couldn't be bothered with real testing or providing such factual detail). It was prioritised by the community (how else would you prioritise it?) and for a while they took notice but BlackSix has confirmed that they don't look at it now, possibly because, as you say, their minds are really on BoM. And that is where my second concern comes in, they aren't listening to us except in patch bug threads which quickly deteriorate into the usual scumbag arguments and get abandoned by 1C and of course they are reluctant to say anything on a regular basis because they just get attacked and insulted all the time. In short, its the community's own damn fault and it isn't doing us any good.

Finally, I can't help noticing that some of the biggest critics don't even own the game or have abandoned it and no longer play it but still come here and use the forum as their own personal playground for creating mischief in something they are not really interested in. Except for their own entertainment or egotism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 463801)

and the relevance to you quoting old delays re "the current situation" is what exactly ?

It's all cumulative. We are talking about the same Battle of Britain game which was initially announced for 2006. Just because it still wasn't ready in 2011 does not mean it was released a year early. It means it was still incomplete when it was five years late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 463780)

if you take somebody like Tree for ex, who was here for years constantly speculating on the negatives before it was even released because he felt hurt and slighted by the previous delays, then see how he rejoiced and was in glee when the release was problematic, and in a perverted sense of seeking attention he then continued to focus ONLY ON THE NEGATIVES since then. he even does so by giving new forum members deliberately misleading information and undermining their possible enjoyment of the sim. even now in a predictable fashion he would like nothing more then for BoM to fail as well, and even if it is reasonably good on release (yes, and with a few bugs omg the sky is falling) and this better product allows the series to continue to improve further in the next years, it is easy to predict tree will STILL do nothing but complain about it. is that what you want to become a part of ?

lol, the truth is Zap, you were telling everyone and anyone that had valid concerns during development that Oleg would never let us down, you were the ultimate fanboi, I have no problem with that as such, but you were so blinkered you couldn't see past your love for Oleg, you couldn't see what was about to happen when others clearly could. Now you try to justify that by claiming its all the whiners fault, just face it Zap, you were duped by the one you love so much. Get over it and move on.

Also, I purchased the game when it was released knowing that it would run poorly, and I do have a super PC, so I helped the funding of the project by paying the full retail price, you however only recently got the game and from what I understand you didn't even pay for it. So if we are talking about true fans here then I fit that category far more than you do. So when BOM is released, put your money where your mouth is this time around and purchase the product upon release, this entitles you to be able to comment on it whether it is good or bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 463813)

Finally, I can't help noticing that some of the biggest critics don't even own the game or have abandoned it and no longer play it but still come here and use the forum as their own personal playground for creating mischief in something they are not really interested in. Except for their own entertainment or egotism.

Agreed completely! Despite the current situation, I think the vast negativity on this forum doesn't always help things. I think even with it's many problems, I can still spend an evening with the game and have a good time!

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 463813)

I have just two concerns now:
1. The FMs for the CoD aircraft must be improved and that is all it will take to make CoD unique aspects acceptable because all core improvements will be overlaid by the sequel (they could also release some of those as a patch later on for 'CoD only' users). I'm not an off-line player and I understand the campaigns are lousy (?) but that is something the community can fix and would have to anyway once people got bored with the out-of-the-box campaigns..

exactly right !
- fixing the major FM errors and tuning relative performances for the competing aircraft (FM and DM) should be their nr-1 priority, regretfully i am not sure luthier sees or understand its importance, or that he know how bad things are in that department (but this has only become relevant since the sim became playable). as you correctly identified, that is the single most important core element to address right now and it will satisfy the more experienced sim fans who are focused on realism (which is what had been the il2 series's great strength, and it is that "niche market" which will then attract new users who initially start on lower "full real" settings)
- i also agree on the offline missions and campaigns, however frustrating that they are not present, the fan base can gradually add those (as they already started) while more important technical sim aspects are addressed

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 463813)

You talked about a bug tracker, well as you also said we have one already but the devs don't read it. It was a fairly clean tracker with objective reporting mostly substantiated by in-game and historical evidence....It was prioritised by the community (how else would you prioritise it?) ......

that bug tracker serves a very important unique purpose, all CoD users can go and report on bugs they found, or participate in discussing bugs found by others. the volume of comments and the number of people voting for a particular bug's importance is also usefull, BUT that system of reporting does not provide a comprehensive overview of bugs, gameplay issues, missing features, and the importance of fixing them in context of creating a more rounded finished product which "does most things well, but has a few residual problems to be fixed".

hence my suggestion of having some specific constructive discussion amongst ourselves (without constant disruption by whiners and trolls), where we organize a list of elements to be addressed (most of which we already know) and place them in their order of importance so it addresses the overall gameplay and use of the sim. this can then be repeatedly flagged to luthier as the most important issues the community wants addressed, and their inclusion and degree of fixing will be the measuring tool by which the "final CoD patch" can be rated (for ex the lack of tree collision models i do NOT put on a high priority, however much we would like it for thrill factors. i resolving this is a major drain on cpu/gpu performance at the moment, resolving it can be delayed till later in BoM)

- a good example of some real major problems:
- reversed controls in some aircraft and some gauges not correctly working (mostly easy fixes but very annoying)
- the problem of not being able to set a specific FoV for your monitor size (which was possible in il2 series, in increments of 5 degree's between 35 and 90), and when correctly set you were able to see in-game objects in their 1:1 correct sizes for the distances they were at (a MAJOR issue, and again has a relatively easy fix for them).
- another crucial one is the problem of distant LoD model visibility (we are currently flying around like myopic pilots, instead of having distant aircraft being able to be spotted/seen at the right RL distances). i suspect the LoD problem issue is relatively easy to fix now the new gfx engine is working, eg in the short term it might be sufficient to have the smaller LoD models provided with "visual enhancements" ("dog balls" paint schemes, or maybe bump mapping etc). this needs tome tuning and work by luthiers team, but is a critical issue
- the problem of allied fighter performance (as is well documented in kwaitek's thread etc), damage models on 109's etc
- lack of AI control and commands of friendly squad
- AI behavior in general is poor "out of the box", yet mission builders can set level of AI skill and then have much better results and more realistic behaviour, similar control of AI skill level should be made available in quick mission builder and for campaign missions or online server AI elements
- etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 463813)

And that is where my second concern comes in, they aren't listening to us except in patch bug threads which quickly deteriorate into the usual scumbag arguments and get abandoned by 1C and of course they are reluctant to say anything on a regular basis because they just get attacked and insulted all the time. In short, its the community's own damn fault and it isn't doing us any good.

exactly, and hence my own concerns vocalized several times in the last few months. imho we need need to get better organized "as the consumers" and provide some of the groundwork to sift through bugs/omissions/errors that affect normal gameplay and use of the sim, and then present this (in this forum) as some sort of "consumer request list" of bug fixes in order of importance. failing that i think a few squeaky wheels will get oiled in the last patch, and some important (but relatively easy to fix) more important issues will be left out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 463813)

agreed. tolerating the level of abuse and constant disruption by a little cluster of perpetual whiners who are deliberately disruptive is very counter productive and undermines new players to get help and objective feedback. several of those trolls, and all their alt login aliases should be perm banned instead of the revolving door of temp bans that doesnt change their behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 463780)

your getting exhausted from the waiting and are falling under the spell of the whiners, be aware its a fatal contagious disease if you let it develop :)

lets look at some of what we do know
- CoD was a disaster because it was a forced premature release 1 yr to early
- the initial scramble in the first 6 months to try and plug the holes and patch it didnt work to make it playable (other then for people who have a monster PC) or improve completion of content. some bug fixes were provided, but many bugs remained.
- 1c/luthier then decided to rewrite the gfx engine from scratch and by doing so had to decide to largely abandon work on fixing CoD bugs or add features (this was bluntly stated months ago, yet people here keeping choosing not to accept this). obviously fixing the gfx engine was the most important issue for CoD, so it was in fact fixing CoD but was going to cause a MAJOR delay in time before it could be completed, but had the advantage of addressing the main issue for making BoM a success, so we cant blame him for making that hard choice (imposed by the bean counters). personally i see this as problematic for the reputation of il2-1C, and a big comprehensive final patch is badly needed to recover some of their reputation and prevent the bad reviews from not being revised later on as patches were released. this initial release of a "bad CoD" however provided them with enough funds to continue (rather then shut down the product series completely, so however counter intuitive it seems releasing it like that was actually good news odd as it may sound)
- from then on 1/2 their programing team then worked exclusively on BoM as the next release (planes, game object, scenery) while the other half focused on the complete rebuild of the gfx engine and game engine
- then for a long period CoD patches were non existent, communication ground to a halt (till B6 recently appeared), customer speculation mounted in the information vacuum. frustration increased in the forum and bad reviews online increased, but there is/was simply no manpower or resources to address CoD problems, no matter the volume of complaints.
- august 2012 the first good performance patch was released, indicating the work to date from the gfx engine rebuilt the previous 12 months
- september 2012 luthier confirms that there will only be one further bug fixing patch together with the further improved gfx engine work. after that BoM will contain any further fixes and can then be installed over CoD. luthier also indicates that the continuation of the whole SoW series will depend on the success of BoM, eg if these sales are NOT good within the first 6 months and they generate positive reviews to recoup their high standing in the sim market (which was going to be opened to 3e party designers of planes and scenery etc, remember ?), then they might have to close shop completely. this is something many people here fail to grasp !

meanwhile the little forum'itis in residence here keep running around in circles chasing their own tails by asking, demanding, screaming to fix this and that, and throwing insults around that they "want it now and deserve it now" and that luthier should talk to them NOW and is accountable to them personally. when luthier or B6 do appear they are subject to abuse and disrespect, who would stay around and try and have a normal conversation under those conditions ? and is anybody here providing them with the means to put more of their limited resources into fixing CoD, err no ! it is what it is, CoD was a forced release that has largely been abandoned, we were told as much over 9 months ago

if you (and the others here) like flight sims ? want a chance to ever get a decent next gen ww2 flight sim ? then how about doing something positive to help it become true. that doesnt mean you cant be frustrated with the delays, but it would mean you actually help to do something to help it NOT FLOP ! in comparison, if you take somebody like Tree for ex, who was here for years constantly speculating on the negatives before it was even released because he felt hurt and slighted by the previous delays, then see how he rejoiced and was in glee when the release was problematic, and in a perverted sense of seeking attention he then continued to focus ONLY ON THE NEGATIVES since then. he even does so by giving new forum members deliberately misleading information and undermining their possible enjoyment of the sim. even now in a predictable fashion he would like nothing more then for BoM to fail as well, and even if it is reasonably good on release (yes, and with a few bugs omg the sky is falling) and this better product allows the series to continue to improve further in the next years, it is easy to predict tree will STILL do nothing but complain about it. is that what you want to become a part of ?

given that progress on CoD is very slow and BoM some time away in the future, rather then be frustrated with CoD's problems just see yourself as a highly trained beta tester who is perfectly placed to provide constructive feedback for a great ww2 flightsim in the making (the fixed CoD and BoM), and do something about helping it become true (while you go off and play other games you might find less frustrating). the most practical thing i can think of in that regard is for the community to get an organized and provide well documented list of major bugs and gameplay problems, and have them in priority of importance and focused on addressing both general gameplay issues (like lack of multiplayer co-op) as well as bug fixes (reversed controls, some gauges not working), FM errors in aircraft performance, specific DM errors, and important lack of features (inability to set specific FoV's for monitor size for ex). and no, a user run bug tracking website and a few long technical threads on some frustrating bugs for CoD is not enough in that regard, we cant rely or depend on luthier and their tech's to go trawling thru those and pick out a few snippets of wisdom. there is only going to be ONE more chance to get some badly needed fixes and (small) new features in CoD, if we want this to be as good as possible we need to help present this information in an orderly and systematic fashion to luthier (because his lack of time doesnt allow him to be as thorough as we would like, and the current "bug report" thread in this forum is a major jumbled cluster of bugs/errors/missing-features that sets no indication of priority or significance) )

so what is your choice, the blue pill or the red pill ? life will never be the same after (choose between hammering nails in the coffin of CoD and sabotage the development of BoM, or help create a fixed CoD and a decent BoM). :)

Right on the money;)
No arguments there;)

Agreed
Since i started play it has improved no end.

Just wait for the sequal

We will see who out of the pessimists and optimists will be right.
Please dont,t damm them before relese.
I for one will be buying just as i allways have with the old seires and I NEVER regreted that.
Seems the Info about the (last Patch) has only fanned the flames of this argument.
I play Clod between 1946,Rise of flight,MSFSX and Skyrim.
Can,t wait for the Sequal.
Keep up the good work guys.;)

Guys, if I have to quote all the things said in the above posts I would fill all the space with quotes, start arguing and make this unreadable, so I'll sumarize saying that I can agree on 90% of what have being said, and said that give my description of what some of us feel / believe.

The following is my take and those of my surroundings, so it could be only an isolated case, I dont want to speak for everybody and I dont wanna to argue here or convince anyone, so please take it only as sample of a poll.

I don't think that this is a problem of whinner vs fanbois anymore, is not if Tree was right or Zapatista, that's history now. I don't think either if we have more or less degree than elsewhere of the average trolls that take the opportunity of this discussions to feed their needs and look for forum dogfights.

The problem IMO is that a new season has turned out and again many squadrons need something to fly. Simple as that. They need to maintain the interest, train people, make SOP's, fly unite and act as a team.

This is a lot of effort and the natural question is : what sim are we gonna use?

And then we have very few options if we talk only WWII, but the truth is that if for a moment, even if magically we all became the same sort of optimistic people, we know that at short term we are not going to have a stable base in COD. Even if we forget about offline play, meteo, everything, and we asked about PvP only, we lack a stable network code to think about that seriously.

We have no way to make competitions in COD, and the squadrons need competitions. Farber is asking (S to 5./JG27 for hosting the first SOW campaign) who's is gonna take the next online campaign and he's trying to stir up the hive a little, and? who is willing to take all this efforts without a stable base?

So, I don't know of your plans guys, but in my squad we are deciding what to do for this season, and the future with COD is not very bright to say the least. We have never come and will not come here to harass good B6 with "please give me info", but if they don't show up soon with solid proofs we are gonna -quietly - take another way to survive as a squad.

If this is not only happening with us -I guess not - the problem with COD is not about fanboys or whinners, will be that the people don't sim this sim, and that will be the end except for the casual players and the offline fellows.

I wish I could blame someone in the community, for example the much beloved Tree, for all of this, but seriously and sady I cannot; and I don't think he is / has doing any harm apart of being a bugger for some, and I will say now that I changed slowly my opinion him, because fact is that much of what he said was true, like it or not. This conclussion came from direct observation since COD's release, not that he waved a magic wand on me, that is ridiculous to think of.

Of course, much less influence has had in me the usual trollers.

So please don't focus this thing again in dialectical fights among ourselves and who was right and who wasn't.

They have clearly give us hints that they dont want community's active help. Despite that Community showed support. We overcame the lack of proper manuals, readme's and heck, even the most basic things. No problem, someone was there to help and fill the gaps with videos, tutorial, bugs documentations, scripts...much of the time only guessing things that were undocumented.

But this is not April 2011 anymore you now. Some of us have spent hundred, even thousands of hours flying COD, and one and a half year of active waiting now is moment to say, OK we gave you money, bought more copies for our friends, convinced them to learn it, gave you time, gave you beta test and showed love.

Now show what you have for me please, because there is only one responsable of this situation and only someone that can fix it. And that someone is you. But please, no more screenshoots or announcements please. Show me a plan that I can believe, give me a timeframe so squads can organize their inmediate future and stop bleeding pilots, and show me solid proofs of the WIP that we can trust to continue supporting this. They know it and I hope the show up soon. I hope-.

S!