Ermm

Yes!!! STONE HIM, STONE HIM...

AN UNBELIEVER!!!


We urgently nead a patch from Monthy Python.. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rKYL0tW-Ek

ALpha, good one ...You made me laugh. It is a first for a moderator.;)
Salute and be patient with us !

I'd rather just get the boot, I can't see a way of closing the account myself (or I would have done), and dont want to be tempted by some of the silly baiting that is routine around here. Latterly, from you Bongo....:).

Ben

Since I haven't been booted yet, I may as well pass the time with this newsworthy bulletin: notalot has happened, and in the way of meaningful updates there is nought, nada, niet, zero, zilch, not-a-penny. There you have it Kalimba, the official word :)

BlackSix might usefully consider replacing the 'Six' with 'Out'.... :)

Ben

I aim to please.....:grin:

I was not aware 777 is close to being bankrupt. I'm not talking about a full blown WW2 sim from them. All they have to do is start selling WW2 aircraft.
Begin with a base package. Map and 2 or 4 adversary aircraft. Even the current France maps could be used. I would have no problem spending 10-15 bucks for a high quality WW2 fighter for RoF. I still expect 1C to deliver the goods at some point though. Just not sitting on the edge of my seat anymore.

Wow. That's a new one to me. Has there been any word about this somewhere or just speculation?

Nobody posts around here because literally most people that post have been banned.

Tarks you are wrong. People post here. there have been 3 or more pages of posts here in the pst 24hrs.

Maybe it is the weekend everywhere now and Post does not get delivered on the weekends ;)

As you have already understood, nothing came with the news.
Ilya is not in Moscow and I couldn't communicate with him yesterday. I can not publish anything without his permission. I apologize. Try to fix next week.

Thanks for trying B6.

Luthier might of posted something himself though, he must be too busy poor chap. i hope hes getting enough rest and eating ok.

It was not outspoken, but i did take it from this post

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=25324

wer was said that they need money.

And this:
http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26936

2012 is the crunch year for RoF. Apart from the financial side, it looks like the constant sniping and complaints are damaging them.
Some people should take note of what Jason says in those posts, about a lot of things...

@JG52Uther
Agreed.. So... for those that worship RoF and think it can do no wrong, you had better think again in terms of it's longevity... RoF is a wonderful game and I love it enough to have bought all the expansions, and I hope it continues long into the future, but... one thing is clear, the constant complaining and whining doesnt do anything but damage this fragile genre of gaming for everyone.

So please, I ask all of you to just try and behave like people that enjoy this genre and enjoy helping others to discover and enjoy this wonderful niche world of flight simulation. Otherwise we may lose investor and publisher support for any decent flight simulations in the future.

As my Grandmother used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all!"

And that folks is what I've been on about all this time, not purely about anti-whingeing, just looking out for my investment and a game genre.

I think the community is the one that needs to pay attention if you actually read the posts and understood the real situation. These guys (777 & 1C) put their heart and souls into this genre "as a labor of love" If you think its the developers at fault your not listening, they need your support not your constant criticisms.

Thank you for the link, I missed it. Worth putting into our mods' sigs :) Hope 777 breaks through. I own almost all their aircraft however constant whining convinced me that I should not invest in bombers which I would never fly anyway. Thus, whiners reached their goals partially.

@mods & all
Let's make sure Luthier or his successor does not have to post the same 3 messages here in 2013. This is our responsibility to stop usual local saboteurs. ¡No pasarán!

+1

And we, the positive part of community, have a responsibilty too.

Putting aside reasonable criticism and complaint, the doomsayers and trolls do not in themselves damage the game or its development. Its how the rest of us react to it that can amplify it, exaggerate it and seemingly add to the pile labelled 'doomed'.

Ignore the Trolls, give calm, evaluated/considered replies where you have something of value to say, don't reply if it won't help and let the rest of it float downriver.
And don't get personal.

Bingo!

I have all but one of the RoF expansions.. and many of the upgrades for each plane..

But RoF is not the 1st sim, nor the last that I have supported with my $

Off the top of my head I can only think of a handful of sims that I have NOT bought over the past 20 years of flight simming

Why?

Because I realize that flight simming is the red headed step child of gaming

Any company that sets out to make a flight sim does so against the advice of the marketing departments!

Which means they do it because they themselves love flight sims

But love does not put food on the table

So I see my small $50 per game payout as my way of supporting flight sim community as a whole..

In the hopes that it will not die off and these sim makers are NOT forced to go make 'other' games

Long story short, flight sim games need our support good or bad. With that said, IMHO everyone should view a new flight sim not as an investment, but as a gambler views a roulette table. You lay your $50 dollars down and spin the wheel. Some times you win, some times you loose. And if you hesitate at any moment while plunking down your $50, that is your inner voice telling you that this flight sim HOBBY of yours is too expensive for you in the first place. That is to say if your budget is such that your livelihood depends on the success of a flight sim game.. You really need to look in the mirror and re-evaluate your priorities in life.

Well i see it differently...in fact there is such a huge difference between CLOD and its developers and ROF and jason.

I brought ROF right at the start and have supported it through the hard times and never felt let down or aggrieved, ive never posted anything negative on the ROF forums even when ROF was in its early days and was having problems...why?

Because they have always been up front and honest about the games problems and have ALWAYS posted info, updates and blogs telling us what they are working on, a rough idea when the next patch will be out and if they are slipping they tell you why..they have always had a road map and a long term plan.

If they say they going to do something...THEY DO IT.

But most of all they FIX things and they stay fixed.

Each patch that is released has made progress and improved the sim.

ROF works.

Yes RoF works, after two years it is a nice game, with constant paid for DLM, and its still on the edge of going under at any time. Their fanbase is only growing slowly.
If Jason is fed up of people complaining on a forum which is almost 100% positive, how do you think Luthier feels.
I think (hope) Jasons post made people perk up and take notice on the RoF forum, and I mentioned it because what he said is also valid here.
People whinging and whining, and constantly having forum fights here DOES damage these sims, and endanger their future, so don't be surprised if action is taken against people who do it.

Even in the first tough days of ROF they made progress with each patch.
They dont make stuff up.
They told you what is being fixed...and guess what? it got fixed in the patch.
then they moved on to the next problem, and so it went on.

Jason always answers posts even when he doesn't know the answer, if they cant do it yet, that is what Jason tell you.
Ive never felt ive had smoke blown up my pipe with Jason.

The core of ROF works and has always done so.

Today...CLOD still has the same problems it had 8 months ago. the core problems have not been fixed,.

FM
DM
CEM
AI
SOUND(getting better but still many problems)
COOPs
CRASHES

what have they been doing for 8 months?

like i say...a big BIG difference between ROF and Jason and CLOD and luthier.

Jason wasn't onboard until approximately nine months after the release of RoF.

furbs, the reason you're not whining on the RoF forum is because Jason would ban you in about 2 seconds. He doesn't put up with any of the BS that is posted in here.

Thats your opinion David, your wrong but your welcome to it. Thats truly how i feel about ROF and CLOD.

It's not my opinion. I am in that forum a lot. You would be banned in about 2 seconds for the sort of stuff you do in here. That is a fact.

Ok...last ever reply to you David.

What ever...

If I may comment...The whole story strated with Oleg 10 years ago...I would say that most of present faithful followers were there too.
Oleg used to share with us almost daily with comments and small updates. Then they became weekly, every friday...That was Oleg's way. He would spend hours , every week, discussing his ideas, his dreams and goals with us.
This is what Maddox Games were when it all started. This is were most of us are comming from. We were used to that . This is how it was done.
There was whining there too. Oleg would come up, clarify things and go on.
Then another complain. He would come back and show us what was done to fix the issue. Then got back working...He never let things go out of control.
He was very optimistic about COD's new technology and was always telling us that we would be very impressed with the quality of the final product. Then, 2 years ago , something went very wrong...And we were never told or explained what happend. I personnaly think that is when the whole relationship was compromised. And nothing has been done since to really heal the broken link of faith. We are still here...But we cannot really put back our hearts in 1C until ....All we can do is hope, wait, and ...whine....
Salute !

Hope and wait, yes, whine no. Those days have gone.

Maybe you are right and CloD team is not as good as RoF team. This does not change Jason's point that constant negativity of some part of community is harmful to a project.

Even this perfect team which you describe could hardly handle the damage caused by the malcontents over recent 2+ years according to Jason. All this did not help them.

If you think the CloD team is not this good why would you want to make even more damage to it?

The team needs us to remind them about key issues which they can forget (like COOP one) because they may be overwhelmed with the challenges they are facing from time to time. But I am sure that this should be done in a rational business-like manner to be heard and to be of any use. Negative emotions cause only negative reaction as we can see even in Jason's posts.

Let's agree with you that CloD devs are not as good as RoF devs that you try to prove in your post. OK. Does it make you happy? Would it inspire anyone here to make fixes quicker, to work extra hours, to skip vacations to get results quicker?

PS. 777 are open for discussion because they are the publisher and Jason is the Biggest Boss of the publisher. For MG publishers are 1C in Russia and UBI in other countries. Luthier is not the Big Boss of the publisher and has non-disclosure agreements with both of them. No one would benefit if he breaks one and gets fired.

He may also think that it is UBI responsibility to answer your questions because UBI's PR people are paid for this. It case of 777 Jason is paid for this and community liaison is a part of his job-description unlike Luthier's one. You may not like it and seek revenge on these forums but this is how business is done. Marketing and communication budgets are spent by publishers not by developers. If you are angry talk to UBI because they are your publisher, you paid them and they got your money. If you want to support the developer you can do it on this forum (as it belongs to developer, not to UBI).

True. I remember a newcomer posted emotional complain on performance or SLI. Jason replied mentioning also something like that a complain without posting system specs can be considered as trolling.

There needs to be people who are prepared to diagnose accurately and without malice about any given situation. That is why Furbs and many others post as they do. It doesn't mean you have to be pompous or high and mighty, just cut through the crescendo about how good things are.

The one that makes me question reality is this old trope: you will endanger future endeavors if you don't be quiet. Which is similar to being told that all mathematics is in trouble if we can't agree to 2 + 2 = 5.

Attempts to stop this by complaining about the tone of the criticism (lack of respect etc) or characterising it all as a single whinge generally only rebound on those that do it. The game itself, and the state of it, will have a habit of throwing up new critics, despite how often the critics are routinely removed, baited, whatever.

It's a fairly simple and fundamental point.

The defenders-of-the-faith do more harm in helping 'their own' game, than good, in reality. I'm beginning to think they do more harm than the more extreme critics. It is one of the ironies of the situation, and must be mildly frustrating to those who take the uber-fans' viewpoint seriously (I do not take them seriously) . It is like arguing Copernican values. You can do it, and you can ban contrary views from various forums...but what a waste of energy, and how silly, ultimately.

Much of the criticism is based on really obvious, simple points. A whole lot more is getting people to see these points, which they can;t do if they're busy trying to gun all criticism down.

Ben

Il take all that on board Ataros and have a think.

Just my opinion...

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.


Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

New people coming here and asking about something is fine. People who have been here a while, and have a lot of threads making posts complaining about the same stuff over and over again is not ok.
This forum has always been quite relaxed and laid back, and some people have taken advantage of that and just come here either to argue, or complain about the same things over and over.
There are 40,000 plus members on these forums, and ten or so people who seem to come here just for a rant and lols are not going to ruin it for everyone else.

I always knew 777 was not making a killing.. But I did not know they were so close to shutting down the operation..

Thanks for the heads up!

Based on that info I just went and spent $25+ on..

Halberstadt CL.II
R.E.8
SPAD 7.C1 150 HP

Now I have all the planes!!

Even though I have no interest in flying the SPAD..

Same is true of a lot of the RoF planes and Field Mods I have bought in the past.. I see it as supporting the people who make the the HOBBY I love possible

And when you stop and think.. I can spend more than that on a lunch.. Three times that in a few hours at the bar.. Four times that filling up my truck once.. Which puts it all into perspective.. It really is the cheapest form of entertainment around! That is to say if RoF closes it's doors next week, it will still be best entertainment money I have spent this week

Now.. I am off to try out my new RE8! S!

Think i might fill up with a few planes too. price of a lunch.

That's the spirit!

So if you had a child that was underperforming in life you would go about correcting it by beasting on them with constant criticism? positive encouragement doesn't factor?

yet when I use your own method to correct your failing in life you expect me to be quiet.

@furbs

You mentioned that "openness" of the ROF team vs Maddox Games. Let me make a small correction to that: they became that way after 777 Studios and Jason especially took over the management and community liaison. Before neoqb were just as close-mouthed, evasive and hung up on trashy salesman phrases as UBI in their worst times. I remember trying to get a straight answer out of Viks about their intial DRM and all I got were standard phrases which were more evasive than telling.
It's Jason and only him and his people who have salvaged what I considered a grossly mishandeled release and news policy not worth the title and turned it into a working game and a working relationship with the community.

Then i stand corrected Cthor. cheers.

Bongodriver said

No. First I would remove those people that keep saying everything is fine from having too much influence, so at least the child can gain an accurate view of what it is that needs improving. And I would try and keep it reasonably factual and point out what could be improved, how, and what is realistically do-able given the time and resources available.

Secondly, Luthier et al are not children, as far as I know.

you can post what you like, how you like, and when you like. Which appears to be melodramatic, melodramatically, and roundabout now. I have my views, but you instantly wanted to pick a quarrel, initially based on my being new to the forum. Which, what, automatically invalidates any criticism?

The thing is, so much of this is about secondary personality stuff, and it shouldn't be. That is what it gets reduced to - it is a trap that the critics so ften, myself included, perhaps fall into.

I realise the Mods would prefer some upbeat positive views. But here, as in life, that isn't always possible. If there is some good news, I will be sure n' post a semantic equivalent to a grinning rictus :)

I'd love to be able to take a single word you say seriously, your tone almost fools me into thinking there are a few synapses firing, but then I remember that you are incapable of taking your own advice and also incapable of solving a very simple problem.

And so it goes...the joyless last resort of those without any real arguments to make....'is you still here?'.

Brilliant :)

In fact, I Pm'ed the Mod again to ask if my account can be killed.

You can then resume your luke-warm supper of cold turkey.

I'm not sure where 'non-firing synapses' figure in the internet book of standard insults but I can guess it is reasonably to the middle, and all the more unexciting for that.

I would say that you are your type are the biggest single problem here, and contribute to holding the game back, in reality. But you cannot see it. That is a shame.

:confused:Just remove this site from your favorites list...seems easy:grin:...I should explain that I am neither for or against your opinion's. It's just that you don't have to remove your account, you could just not use it anymore if that's what you want...or just create a new account

I agree. I think he could not do it because of NDA with UBI and/or 1C. Oleg even had to participate in the launch event in Moscow because of his contract obligations. I do not think they were allowed to talk about what happened. Luthier mentioned on sukhoi in March something like please do not ask me questions (about release issues) answering which would get me fired next morning. Luthier is an aviation enthusiast but he has to make money for the publishers. It is even more complicated because MG is now part of Softclub which is a part of 1C which has contract obligations to UBI. Too many bosses above luthier. May be not 100% correct, just my impression. Softclub merger happened in 2009 IIRC due to economic crisis. Then anti-crisis management took command and many employees of the team left. After the launch Oleg wrote on his Youtube channel that he is not sure if the team would be allowed to finish the product. Remember how happy luthier was bringing here the news that the project will be continued?

Regarding roadmap I think luthier mentioned some in spring and summer but then they did not got through it. Maybe because new people have to decipher someone else's code which can be a nightmare. Maybe there are other reasons. They can not tell us because of NDA with UBI and 1C/Softclub bosses, especially on the official forums.

Why all the above happened? Oleg as a man took responsibility for 2 major reasons: 1) did not insist on making CloD using old IL-2 engine and believed some team members that the new engine can be done in shorter time, 2) attempted to meet all user requests, wishes and dreams as it was in Il-2 which was not possible in the new engine because of its complexity (much more people had to be hired which did not happen due to many reasons - crisis and other) http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1683314

The AI guy was changed within the recent year IIRC.
I can see that the team is in trouble and they can not deliver results as quickly as I want (and as luthier wants). I understand also that they can not be as sincere and open as Jason is before all of 3 their Big Bosses approve in writing what they can sincerely say.

The question is if we want to give them our hand of help or we seek revenge and want them to burn together with this project? I posted one very negative reply regarding COOPs in the last "Q&A" thread because I knew luthier would probably see it and provided links to facts and bugreports. But if I start repeating it every day this will not be constructive any more because 1) they will stop listening to this negative noise, 2) this would discourage the devs, 3) this will give wrong impression to newcomers that there is nothing good in the game (because of the same negative noise).

I am sure that what Jason said about 777 can be applied to MG issues. Development may stop any minute if we do not support the devs or Luthier may get too disappointed with forum reaction and move to the USA to his family where he can make more money probably too. Then someone of 1C Big Bosses would have to finish the series making it an arcade free-to-play fest.

Let's get as constructive as we can. This is the only way out.
At least we have a new engine, not a 10-year old Il-2 one (as we could) and the team was allowed to continue development yet. Gods were on our side so far.

I think luthier would agree with you because his bosses remind him about this every day.

I made my argument quite clear, the tit-for-tat has been mutual, asking why youre still here is quite valid, you first post here (some whinge about 1C forum censorship) also included a request to be stricken from the forum membership, 21 posts later and you have failed to achieve that.

is it luke-warm or cold? are those synapses fading?

sorry can't help, never read it......I would ask you to lend it to me but I'm not impressed so far.

you would and indeed have on several posts and I thank you for the laughs.

Besides whining and negative criticism, you know what else kills game? Releasing something that is half finished. The time of release is the most crucial point for any game, and is the time when you want it to be as finished as possible. This is what review sites review, and negative reviews from the big review sites is what a lot of people wait for and base their purchase on.


Rise of Flight's beginning was also suspect because of the constant online connection DRM and the pay per plane model. Those 2 things turned off people at the start, and a lot of folks don't come back.

And yet Luthier gives a clear road map about what they're trying to fix/not fix at the current moment and you're the first to chime in about something not immediately relevent to the upadate like Anistropic Filtering. You expect us to believe that you wouldn't complain about being beta testers for an incomplete project had they been forth coming?

unless they want a good whinge.....

Right we have that part clear now....whining kills games.

Now as an extra lesson I'll tell you what fixes games with problems........developers, particularily ones who do their job instead of appeasing spoiled brats.

does this road map say when the FM, DM, CEM, AI, crashes and sound will be fixed?

How much so far on that road map has been fixed?

Fixed?.....no, nothings ever fixed with games, improved?......yes by comparisson to release, when the next patch is released we will see more improvement, I don't think you will ever find anyone that will give you a fixed date on when a patch will be done for any game.

I rest my case. You're looking at the wrong map. ;) You also avoided my comment about whining regarding what's not included in an update. You or I my not like the road map or progress of the sim, but if the map points to one place (nevermind how small the distance is) it is a plan. Asking why we're not farther along matters not one bit.



Don't get me totally wrong, furbs. There are those on the other side of the fence who are just as vehement as you are and don't add significantly to the overall forum atmosphere. We all know the game's not perfect....

I chalk it up to being disappointed after a long protracted build of CoD. I understand that. But there has to be a point where folks realize that kvetching or over abundant praise helps no one.

I think the moderators are trying to reach that medium. Unfortunately it has come to moderation of posts and topics... including banning of members.

When it's done.....at some point in the future........when the process of fixing the code has been accomplished..........when the devs are satisfied with the results

I will as well. I am shy like 2 planes.

Its amazing how quickly people forgot the problems ROF had on release. It certainly wasn't released as unfinished as COD, but it was also not as complex. There is very little money in the prop genre and only dedicated flight sim people, like the ROF, and COD teams are still in the business. I'll have to remember to add a few more aircraft to my ROF install. I don't fly it much as I simply don't like the claustrophobic feel of that top wing. :)

Its also amazing that there are people who think that because someone says something good about COD that they are in denial about the problem that exist, and are hurting the genre. I'm not aware of anyone in the forums who thinks and posts that the sim doesn't need any work. I guess they figure the developer will think we must love the sim they way it is, and won't bother trying to fixing it. I'm quite sure the developer isn't impaired with that logic.

What the development have achieved so far is a mixed bag, that is indicative of any sim released unfinished. The current state of COD, has required years of work, and is a strong base to achieve a very good combat flight sim. As long as they keep working, I'm quite willing to support them. Its just a fact of life that todays combat flight sims are just too complex, expensive, and time consuming, for a small enthusiast developer to handle on time and on budget.

Yes, we could express the argument, that what was released took to long, and wasn't what we expected, but everyone is aware of that.....its time we got over it, and moved on to something else, or stay and support the development with constructive feedback.

Yep agreed robtek, just as the "nothing wrong with the sim and your not allowed to say anything bad about it" crowd wind me and others up. i dont ask people not to post how much they enjoy it and are happy with it.

about the FSAA, how many times have i and other people asked? all i want is a straight answer.

i dont mind if you or anyone else dont believe me robtek but my earlier post IS how i feel.

ive spent 1500 quid on a PC on the stories we was told about CLOD and how it would be.



All i see is smoke and mirrors, patch padding, no fixes and a sim that has failed so far.
I hope it gets fixed, i hope CLOD one day represents the battle of its name and not "air quake lone wolf engagement over the coast"

Im going to stop the tit for tat posting but im not going to stop posting my opinion because i hope Luthier reads these forums, though i doubt that too.

These people are a fiction, never seen a single post by anyone here saying theres nothing wrong.

you did what?

We all know Wargaming.net, a developer of World of tanks, World of Battleships and World of Warplanes, a relatively rich company.

In 2009 they released a strategy game called Order of War. In 2010 they switched all their attention to World of Tanks and stopped supporting it. By Jan. 2011 the game and forum was dead no patches planned.

Game Being Abandoned by fans because of memory bugs

This is how this business works nowadays. They can not prove to investors that it is financially feasible to support a 1.5-year old product.

This is what luthier probably means when he says that they decided to support the product unlike other companies. This also means they managed to persuade investors to do so. Very good news so far. They need our support to persuade investors again next month and then again and again till CloD bugs are fixed and BoM is released to pay the investors back. Cursing the devs would only harm this regular persuasion process.

Are you really trying to say that the game is broken and being abandoned because it has fans? and the only real way to fix it is to allow unhindered slander of it?..........we have just found a new level of ludicrousnes

Sad part of all this even if 1C could 'fix' <insert your whine here> most wouldn't even realize it..

For example.. take DM's..

If you want to see something REAL FUNNY ask the next person that makes the claim that the DM is 'broken' to explain just what it is about the DM that 'consider' to be broken..

Brace yourself first!

Because if they even bother to 'try' and explain it, as opposed to attacking you personally for asking them to explain it, you will be presented with a 'reply' heavy/full of 'opinion' and light/empty of 'facts'..

Why?

Well because the DM is one of those things for which there is no 'right' answer!

Thus each flight sim makers does what they consider (read opinion) to be correct.

Which means it comes down to one opinion vs. another, thus no mater what 1C does to the DM it will be viewed by some as 'fixed' and viewed by others as 'broken'.

Think that is bad? Well on an even sadder note, Take things like FMs where there actually is a right answer, even in those cases you will find some that will insert their 'opinion' as to why the 'real world data' that 1C used to 'simulate' the plane is wrong.

Knowing that, is the real reason 'why' this (nay any) sim will never be completely 'fixed' because.. Because most people base 'fixed' on thier opinions.

Check out philip.ed's quote in my sig.. Even he admits we recived what was advertised.

As for 'stories' about what CoD would be..

Well they are just that..

Stories.

Combine that with peoples ability to blow things out of proportion and expect the moon and it is easy to see why some people are so upset..

That is to say that is a good 'reason' for them to be upset, but that is not a good 'excuse' for them to be upset.

Oleg himself said the AI would be much improved over IL2. its not...its much much worse.

OK lets not go over the same stuff over and over again.

Both camps are guilty of complaining, most of them visible here on the boards. And then there are those that can use this game, but who use PM to luthier to complain of the aircraft shake...and so the game suffers

Given the number of times you have posted this request... jeez... what a hypocrite ;)

The AI in this game has some serious quirks, the mad rolling, especially with the big birds obviously noteworthy. But anybody comparing AI behaviour by taking a spin in quick missions will immidiatly notice the AI IS much improved. In IL2 I just had to go into a gentle bank and the AI would happily spend all it's ammo happily shooting into nothingness. Try the same here and ouch. The AI also does some really good scissoring and in general is a much greater challenge then in the old Il2.

Bewolf the AI do exactly the same thing in CLOD.
ive stopped playing single player because of the AI.

A perfect example of what I said wrt DMs

AI like DMs.. opinions abound

This can be changes in a mission now: FMB > airgroup properties > AI > Advanced combat manoeuvres slider. If set to 30-50% it fixes crazy rolling.

I guess bombers use fighter settings now which is wrong of cause and has to be fixed.

Octocat takes this into account in his dynamic campaign generator mentioned here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=590

In general AI was completely reworked compared to Il-2 and has much better foundation but needs fine tuning.

Atraos what setting stops your wingmen crashing into ground as you land? or the setting that stops whole sqds from reacting while been shot at?

If the AI was as good as you say, why are they rewriting it? remember they have hired a new AI guy and asked for the flightsim community to help.

Wrong (again). That is an extract of my post which, up until now, I found quite humurous seeing in your sig (perhaps something that we could finally agree on) but you have now taken it completely out of context. I said that people who bought the game solely based on the packaging and the information on the website had nothing to really complain about. This doesn't account for the people who browsed this forum and took the devs comments to be official (comments which were official until Oleg's announcement he was stepping down).

They were extremely misleading. This truth is inescapable.

So Furbs has every reason to grumble (I guess in the same way you have every right to mock him for his apparent naiveity. What was it Voltaire said? 'I detest your opinion but I will argue until the death for your right to say it')

it's amazing how when it suits you, you manage to use the actual information the devs give us which you so vehmently accuse them of not providing.

The argument was not if the AI is good, the argument was that its not better then in IL2. There still needs a lot of work to be done, undoubtly, with your wingmen crashing into the ground being a good example, I am with you on this. But the conclusions you take out of that are over the top, that simple. There are ways of propper criticism and there is bad mouthing and the latter is what put people into opposition to your stance.

Then in light of these facts, he should remove the quote from his sig...if he has any honor:-P

shouldn't furbs be grumbling to Oleg then?

Cant do that, hes been away taking pics of girls asses for the last 2 years :grin:

Smart man......girls asses or a forum full of cranks(yes me too).......

I did not say it is good, I said it has much better foundation and needs fine tuning. I agree with you. The only difference is I pay attention to positive sides and to possible solutions. You look at the same object (AI) and pay attention only to negative sides and issues. This is not constructive but destructive for any project (as Jason wrote in his posts regarding RoF).

Should we pretend that negative sides do not exist? No. Then what to do with all these negative sides? The same I did for you with your performance comment here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...2&postcount=25

Easy approach that would make all your efforts not wasted. Unfortunately the devs do not have that much time to play every version of the game and track bugs themselves. If you think that pointing out negative sides of FM, DM, AI, etc. in any other thread than official suggestions thread is helping anyone you are wrong (see Jason's posts). This is only bad propaganda that damages the game but makes you feel better.

In your previous posts today you tried to prove that CloD devs are not as good as RoF devs. Now you are trying to prove that AI code has nothing good in it but only bad. What is the point? I think you are seeking revenge for your own bad decision to spend 1500 on a PC before reading game reviews. I can understand that your feelings are hurt but I do not think mods should allow using company-paid forums for revenge upon this very company. Jason's posts proved that this activity is damaging and can lead to luthier posting similar messages in 2013 here. Mods and community should prevent this by all means.

You do not pay attention to forum nicknames, on the previous page you addressed Robert as robtek. Ataros is not Atraos, please :)

Bottom line is: whatever 1C does about COD and the following games, if the community is not happy about it, if the forums are full of whiners, impatient and non forgiven clients, what would happen ? Whos to say what is acceptable or not in terms of quality and accuacy ? Whos to say what are reasonable amount of bugs at release ? Whos to say what are reasonnable time lines for fixes and patches until "majority satisfaction" is obtained ? What % of advertised features has to be garanteed at release ? Well, WE are the ones who decide. Not as individuals, but as a community. This time, the majority agreed that COD, at release, was a failure. Individually, we have different opnions about the future of COD and how and when and if it will be fixed.
1C has the ball. They have the best and worse clients of the genre. We live in symbiose . We can make those games a potentiel success if 1C delivers the goods. Now if they dont meet our expectations for a second time, I dare anyone to say its our community's fault.

SAlute !

No just the whiners fault..

Bar's closed guys.

G'nite

Bongo lets say the had been no moaning since before release, not one word... are you saying CLOD would be in a better state? would it of got better reviews?
would we of got more and better patches?

I do not remember Oleg saying "You will get this, this and that feature in release version.", or "I promise you will get this..." All he could say is "We are working on this and that...", or "We want this and that feature to be included, etc." These are very different statements.

We all could be misleaded by this because we all wanted the best sim we could imagine. But this was our decision to be misleaded (if we are not kids). People tend to interpret words in the way which is more pleasing to them as this example shows very well (what Luthier actually said and how it was interpreted) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=965

If I decided to pay $50 for a game or 1500 for a PC this is 100% my own responsibility. (Not talking about kids here of cause.) Thus I have no excuse to blame others for my own mistakes (if I am a grown up).

Hardly.. And anyone can click on the link to see that it is in context.

Bingo!

And the fact that he did NOT provide any links to these so called promises speaks volumes.

We had this sort of stuff for years...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GtsNqaE1yU

I did notice this at the start of the vidoe..

WORK IN PROGRESS
All videos and images are based on a pre-alpha version

Did you?

But I did not see the word promise used in any portion of the video.. Did you? If so could you provide the time into the video wher you saw the word promise used? Thanks in advance

The start to that video said mission objectives.....not absolute guarantees.

Agreed..

Also, out of all the things shown in that alpha video from 2009.. What did not make it into the final product other than the dynamic weather (moving cloud fronts, changing weather) and stunt plane

Which 1C anounced prior to the release of CoD that they were unable to get that into the final product.

No.......I'm saying the moaning is just not going to help at all.

1. It's just plain annoying.......hence why I'm returning the favour
2. Not a single whine provides constructive criticism, so far they have been nothing more than petty and scathing attacks.
3. Prospective customers might actually believe some of that tripe and therefore refrain from buying the game.

I suspect point 3 would bring satisfaction to the most prevalent whiners

You mean did they pinky swear? No, but this was promotional material that is meant to entice folks into buying their next product. Usually, work in progress and alpha are disclaimers that what you will see when they want you to think that it will actually be better than what your seeing. I didn't see them say that some of these features might not make it into the game. Did You?

Yes prior to release 1C announced that dynamic weather and the stunt plane would not make it into the final product.. And the fact that you did not know that does shed some light on why you are so upset.. But now that you know, maybe you wont be?

Yes, and I wanted to perceive it as a promise to deliver all these in a release version. But this was only my personal decision and responsibility to perceive it as a promise. Why? Because Oleg never said "I promise that we can deliver it". Every update had a "WIP" notice which means "Can be changed without any further notice because **** ups happen in the very last moment." I explained above what a disaster happened starting with the crisis.

Yes, it would be better if Oleg managed our expectations better (which he could not due to the NDA agreement with UBI). But anyway he can not have 100% responsibility for our expectations, only we have as grown ups.

PS. Again the question is not whom to blame (Oleg excepted that he made vital mistakes), but how not to harm the situation further. Some may have their personal agenda of cause.

+1

I was talking about not seeing it in the video that was given out to promote the game. The video was what we were talking about, wasn't it? Contrary to what you might think, not every person waiting 5 years for this checked every post, eveyday. The video was mis-leading, I'm sure you can see that.

AOA hasn't been around that long and he certainly wasn't posting here during development as far as i remember, and Bongo didn't even join here until the month of release so these two have very little credability when it comes to what was being shown and said to us by the Dev team. Everyone here including all the mods no the deal, we all know what was sold to us and what we actually got, no-one in their right minds apart from the 2 mentioned above would argue with that.

AOA has been around IL2 about as long as I have.

Well I've been here from the start and Oleg NEVER PROMISED ANYTHING. As a matter of fact they where constantly going out of there way to state this is a WORK IN PROGRESS and there were no promises, a lesson they learned well in the first series.

Unfortunately no matter how many times its stated people just don't get it. When the developers have the community involved with a development the community MUST undertand that even the developer does NOT know how the sim will evolve. There are ALWAYS compromises.

Having to release a sim before it was finished certainly didn't help either. Of course a sim will not have all the features working yet.....ITS NOT FINISHED.

OK thats it ban me, I'm tired of supposed adults posting like two year olds. 'but you promises, wha, wha wha"