Bear:: Wow!

+1

If it was only the soundmod (sounds) i wouldnt have any problems with this situation whatsoever. If it was done in a way where the code didnt have to be illigaly cracked i wouldnt have any problems with it.

Sadly this brings along a bunch of other bs that are totaly unexepteble. Everybody knows that the new mods are done by people based on a feeling on how it should be. So maby the Italian guns are way to weak, but the modder has no way of knowing how it really should be...if they are infact to weak to begin with, who knows?

As for 6Dof? Well, 4Dof or 6Dof makes no differanse to me, anybody can bye a Trackir (As long as it works like Leitmotiv says, no gaping holes and such)


Its all the other crap that makes cheating to easy that irretates me. The cheats that pretty much cant be detected even if u had a track of the offender.


Sound in the end doesnt hurt anybody in that sence, same with 6Dof...kind of like improving what we allredy have ingame.


Personally though, i still have a problem with the starter of all this (sound) was done illigaly against Olegs wishes. (or maby sounds where done after BECAUSE the code was cracked, i dont know really. )

I am a little weary of the constant refrain that the mods have zotzed the sim forever for online. How can the the people who enjoy "Med Air War" and "Over Flanders Fields" play online if their massively modded items can't exclude non-regulation mods from servers? As I understand from the MAW forum, anybody trying to play with unofficial mods on their MAW program gets automatically plinked by the server, and they warn people to keep their personal copies of MAW with their own fixes separate from their online version. I am getting the impression the onliners are simply taking their marbles out of the game because they lost on the mod matter. Oleg left so many things undone which were not difficult fixes (as we now know): mirror for the frasting Hellcat, getting rid of the obnoxious nav lights on the AI so that night air battles can occur, 6 DOF (the doing of which proved possible despite countless official claims to the contrary), and on and on. I cannot help but wonder if Oleg was conducting a Darwinian intelligence test: are you going to be a dunce and passively accept you will never have what this sim needs, or are you going to pass the intelligence test and fix the sim yourself? I find his silence on the matter fascinating.

4.09 hacked AAA forum Censership in action
 

In response to there new post..>> http://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1946

I replied and was ban

"Great job ...
The sad thing is most all(NOT ALL) of you are arcade flying noobs. You don't know better.



This isn't counter strike, or half life, or rainbow 6 they all are for 11 year old kids now due to mod fools support.

Are you trying for improving on the Sim? Or to feed your ego and make $ ...
by letting the cat out of the bag.
you have opened Pandora's box.......


You have trashed this Sim ."


I got ban for that.. Censorship again

Funny really,I consider the 6dof mod as just about the biggest cheat out there,for closed pit servers.And the one mod you are most likely to run in to online (over 30,000 views on that mod!)
You might see the odd fm/dm/wm cheat,but there could potentially be huge numbers using the 6dof mod.As well as fm/dm/wm mods, its the one major mod I will not go near for online flying,yet its the one mod that quite a few 'anti modders' seem to like!

LMFAO you sound surprised you got a ban for posting that? Are you trying for a new record,first banned at ubi,now AAA,where next?

Uther the irony in that is Awsum!

"11 year old" gamer behavior should be banned, as it should be banned in all teh servers.


X:: How? A growing number of Onliners are sharing the winnings with Offliners, beginning to mod up their marbles. If you mean the mods are destabilizing the entire old FB/PF community, just like the gasoline engine destabilized the entire horse and buggy world, well yes. New and Used horse/buggy salesmen preached "the end of the world is near!"

Perhaps MAW or whatever has a mature Online community...less numbers maybe...dunno. As TargetWare grows very slowly, it has been seeing some hostile Online gamer behavior. We observed greater acceptance of the new modding at the simhq, which is, as even Oleg found out, in general a more mature Online simming community than we have seen at the ubi.

I am sure that most of the people who are opposed to the modding feel the same way.. just as I am certain that most of the modders just want to make the sim better. It is the potential for cheating and the actions of a few that has so many up in arms. Considering that this community is more than 50% over 30... perhaps we will see some different things going on in this case than with previous cases of moddable sims. IMO the ideal situation would result in a fix coming from the community that would be fool proof. I really think that considering the work of MattM, Lowengren,UberD,CS and all the other guys who created some of the GREAT utilities for this sim surely someone or some group can come up with a solution that will:

1-Secure online play from modifications to FMs, DMs and weapons

Since this is the main concern of 90+% of the anti modders... I am certain that if these mods had been released in a fashion that would have rendered the FMs, DMs & weps unalterable most of the conflict would be nonexistent.

2-Allow the use of some of the other mods.

From where I sit, since the integrity of online play is the primary concern of so many, if a way could be found to allow some of he mods and yet maintain that integrity both camps would be satisfied. These mods are here.. and IMO any solution that does NOT take that into consideration will only invite hacking of the solution. The best solution considering that A)Oleg has already stated that support for IL2 will discontinue after 4.09. and B)There is .. already in place an able and willing mechanism for continued support, irregardless to how that community was formed.... is if whatever solution was created allowed for the use of some of the mods that are already here.

3-Be scalable.. in the sense that it will have at least 3 levels of security with those levels being A)Stock IL2 only. No mods of any kind at all. B)Allow the use of mods as long as they do not alter the FMs/DMs/Weps , C)Alloow the use of any mod regardless.

If the solution does those things I think it will go a long way towards keeping everyone happy and insuring that modded or not this sim goes down as the best WWII combat flight sim ever created.

Raven while I understand how you feel whatever credibility your argument may have had was rendered DOA by your post and this intro Not to mention the content...This has to stop. This does absolutely nothing to create a solution. We all need to take this level of acrimony from both sides and stow it because it changes absolutely nothing. The problem has been hashed rehashed and has not nor will it change. If any of the folks from either side who say with their mouths that the care about this sim then they need to get off the dead end trip and get on a solution mindset because as I have sauid from day one.. the modders arent going anywhere.. and unless some form of secure online play can be regained the nomodders wont be budging either. The ONLY solution is a fix.. so concentrate on that.. in the meantime rehyashing the problem is childish, pointless, stupid and totally useless.

So how do you like the soundmod? Don't lie.

Really funny....you seem to know ............nothing in this matter............ no, it is not based on feeling, but simply on easy available datas, on the net or in books..... datas for ammo are not so hard to find... like caliber, weight, initial speed, (so, easy to compute kinetic energy) and compare between real life and game....and also type of power, amount of power and so on...... easy to calculate and correct. Just datas and values.
Values for italian or romanian weapons (by example) were clearly wrong in game....

For 0.50, i did'nt modify the power of weapon or ammo, just put only API on the belt, no more.... and.... BTW, no, they where not undermodelled ;) kinetic energy was little bit too big....

After, they are datas and values in the game..... you just have to compare real datas with game's datas and correct..... quite simple. And no feeling at all....

I haven't used it as I said.. do you really think that I GAF about you or anyone else's opinion of me and what I do with this sim to the point where I would lie about it? Get over yourself chump. I could care less what you think about me ..... I see you still haven't found that fence.

BC Please Get off your high horse and refrain from preaching to me.
Ending your post by calling me a child. Is uncalled for.

DOA or not.. fact is I don't candy coat the truth..

Nuff said.

I wont get In a public pissing match check your PM.

Burn the witch !

Ratsack

OK... but I am on no high horse.. and I get sick and tired of people telling me to get off my high horse because I think all the name calling and silliness from both sides over all this has gone on for too long. If that puts me on some kind of high horse then where does that leave the folks who can't discuss this situation in a more adult manner. Not only that.. I feel your pain and I have nothing but props for you Raven... Your WWI server is one of the most fun around and you have been a longstanding rememeber of the UBI community since before I got there.. but liking you and having respect for you does not mean that your $hite dont stink.. I have had people call me out when I had my head up my @ss and, not that I am saying you have ours there.. LOL.. I don't want to compound things... seriously.. but le6s fafce it man... those kinds of comments have been going on long enough on this and we need to move on.

Raven should try fragdolls next. He's got talent. Really.

Actually this whole situation is more like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y05EmK66Gsk


;)

ROFLMAO!!!!

Your ban - might just have something to do with calling everyone there idiots dont ya think...?

And nice EDIT for this place with the "(NOT ALL)", and "Are you trying for improving on the Sim? Or to feed your ego and make $ ...
by letting the cat out of the bag.
you have opened Pandora's box......." thing...

Considering it was your FIRST post there, and without fail, tried to provoke it. Personally I am not surprised with a ban being inforced.

If people just deliberatly try to provoke, or stir, dont be surprised that you get banned from anywhere. Keep your name calling to yourself, and elsewhere.

In addition to this, why continue stirring this crock-pot full of sh!t anyway? Its just getting boring, and really isnt achieving anything....

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

So you have a piece of paper and I am a clown.

BIG FREAKIN' DEAL

Is this where I get down and bow to you again?

I tell you one thing IMHO mate. For a bloke that has this almighty degree (from a uni I am supposing), you have an interesting perspective on things.

Oh and for once you are right. This humble CLOWN does not have a degree in military history. Man, now I feel so low and shameful without a piece of paper that I might just crawl away and hide with the rest of the unknowing, unworthy vermin.

I will tell you something else that most other people probably already realise. There are doctors, lawyers, engineers, professionals (and for that matter tradesmen) of all types that have degrees, diplomas, trade certificates and a heap of other pieces of paper to their name. This DOES NOT guarantee that they know what they are on about. As a matter of fact I have encountered many of the above over the years that, although they too have a piece of paper, I wouldn't let them anywhere near me or even my dog for that matter.

So I am happy to be a clown then. At least I get a big red nose, fuzzy hair, rediculous clothes and big floppy boots.

You can just sit snugly with your piece of paper and feel all warm and fuzzy in the belief that this has placed you on this great gold leafed pedestal. If you think that having a piece of paper automatically entitles you to look down on those that don't and automatically makes your opinion correct while theirs are null and void. Then my friend, you have a fair bit of learning to go yet. The paper means that you passed a certain mark. It does not automatically make you an instant guru. I hope that with a degree as a foundation, you can over time become a wise man filtering though the garbage, learning and contributing back into your chosen profession. This way you can eventually pass on more accurate knowledge to someone else with a degree, or maybe even those without one. Oleg has contributed a hell of alot I believe to the best of his knowledge, budget and time restraints. There are others that obviously are capable of improving the sim and I am sure, have the best intention. It still costs Oleg to take these blokes on. Even if he doesn't pay them directly and they do it for free. It costs Oleg time, resources and money to review the things submitted. Maybe Oleg should look at a way to have a portal with someone to filter through the submissions; Then you have a trust problem with the code. I don't have a perfect answer to this debacle as proper legit mods would certainly boost the interest in the community and I would even be happy to pay for a well put together legitimate mod.

Oh and thanks. I sincerely wish you and your family well in the new year also.

I know your trying to help keep the peace BC. Yes im a hot head... I'm plane spoken.
I call em like I see them.

I just don't want people to forget about what is happening so I make lots of noise.
if we settle for enough is enough move on then it gets to were we are now...
A trashed online sim..
Nobody is playing the same sim now its not skill against skill ,
its what mod gives a better advantage.
The best part about the sim is dead ......Its file integrity.
I don't want to see it happen to SOW...

why is CFS dead?......MODS....



I stand by my post, Its true.
Congradulations on a great service to the Sim..
~S~ RaVe

Rave I understand where you are coming from... and my stance is less about keeping the peace as trying to find a solution... Call me a naive optomist but I think this can be fixed.. especially of the ones doing the work have help from 1C. I understand that 1C may not have the time to do it.. but surely some of those other talented folks who have the skills and the where withall to do the right thing can come up[ with a solution to this mess along the lines mentioned in a previous post. As bad as it is we should try to move from the way things are and concentrate on how we would like it to be and try to move it there. It isnt impossible...

I understand your POV, but heres the kicker:

YOU DONT HAVE TO BE INSULTING, OR ABUSIVE to get a point accross dude. Its just rather unbecoming.

Those who belong to the "Oleg will fix this school" have, perhaps, missed the point. There is not likely to be a fix from above, but one worked out by the users. If MAW can be designed to lock out unofficial mods, so can IL-2. Oleg is fully committed to BOBSOW which promises to square the circle for both online and offline users. Why would he waste precious resources on IL-2? I think he has turned it over to the users to work out how to keep their online competition version alive. It's pathetic to see people perpetually bleating for a dispensation from Oleg instead of thinking for themselves.

Xleit, if you were around the ubi.com since 2003, you would have seen the same computer gamer behavior attacking the Offline and Online players who asked Oleg for official methods for deeper customizing options and modding to one extent or another.

But then, we also had the Open Source Trolls, you know, those joining the forum demanding Oleg "open the source(tm)."

They sound the same. Maybe they are the same gamers? nah, say it ain't so!

I've been around since 2004 and that's been enough!

Surely you can flip that around; I bought CFS3 found out it was poor and discarded it...I have recently had to go out and buy it all over again...so I could enjoy the fantastic Over Flanders Fields Mod...and I am sure there are people out there who will say the same thing about the Mediterranean Air War mod.
Mods haven't killed it...they've brought it back to life!

Why oh why do we have to have the same argument over and over and over again...

I challenge the Anti-Mod camp to name any significant flight sim that has been degraded or reduced in quality by the addition of third party or community developed Mods?

And in balance i'll offer the following examples of Sims that have been improved by the addition of theses supposedly awful community Mods....

Falcon 4.0
Lock On Modern Air Combat
Enemy Engaged Comanche Havok
Janes F/A18
Combat Flight Simulator 3
European Air War
Silent Hunter III
Dangerous Waters

And thats just the games I am familiar with, in that I own them and have played them in both the Vanilla and Modded versions and can say without fear of contradiction that the Modded versions are more immersive, more engaging, more complex and more realistic than the Un-Modded versions...

If anyone can come up with a similar list (ideally from personal experience, not Hear-Say) of Simulators that have suffered from community based modding, then maybe there is an argument against it...
If not, then can people stop repeating the same old arguments again and again...because they simply don't stack up...

Well I have to say I gave the 6dof a go last night(very limited testing) But it does work quite well(okay first thing I had to do was disable the roll as I dont like it) I flew a Hurricane and an a 109 around the new Normandy map(thanks Fly_zo great work) using VP's great little missions he made for it(was the perfect way to experience that map to be sure)
I found the zoom to be the best part(something I really liked from ARMA actually) It will take a bit of getting used too(the 109 sight is hard to line up) But I couldnt do anything devious with it like stick my head thru the glass or see thru my tail. Its very well done.

Xleit was absolutley right it is top notch and is definitely an improvement in TIR support but nothing more.

Combined with the Sound Mod, the Normandy mod map/Missions and the 6dof I truly had a wonderful BoB like experience last night( I FINALLY felt/knew a 109 was whipping past me there was no mistaking the sound)
I don't think I have felt more "there" than I did last night. THANKS to all of you for this work.

i think he ment online.
and not only with known friends , also at open to all "events".

in my personal opinion is using the 6DOF hack online already a cheat !
and when im reading on these AAA forums that someone used it on the WoP servers (even with crt02 setting there) , i'm not very happy with this situation..............

in general i would have nothing against these hacks IF the server/host could prevent them succesfully if he wants - but as it looks like this is not the case in the moment.
and i doubt it will be ever in the il2 series.

in SoW it will be different , there will be the possibility to mod - but the server/host will be ablte to prevent any mod if he wants, as long as the next hacker comes along..............................

EXACTLY!!!

And with the talented pool of folks that is in this community which never ceases to amaze me... surely... SURELY they can come up with something that can do the job.. I think that as long as it falls within the parameters that I described above it will work. That way those who want to use full mods and will anyway can.. and those who want to fly in a totally mod free environment can and those who want a mixed bag can have that as well.. I am certain that even then there will be people who will try to cross the line.. just because that is the way that people are... but at least with a viable solution like that.. it will make it less likely and more obvious and everyone will be able to do as they want without forcing their desires on anyone.

Again.... therein lies the problem... I think most of the anti mod crowd feel exactly the same way you do FB....

Falcon4 - basically abandonware, and what is possible to mod if I may ask you? ;)
LOMAC - recently some mods were allowed by the dev.team again what are the mods reduced to?
EECH - I'm not familiar enough with to comment.
Janes F/A-18 - so old Napoleon played wile imprisoned on St.Helena
CFS3 - yes and see what happened to it ;)
EAW - practically designed for mods
SH3 and DW I'm not familiar with
Also the other flight sim I play is the Strike Fighters series, that game is all about modding, but guess what - it was designed that way.

I fail to see where and how exactly does il2 fit within the above games ;)

CHAPEAU if the AAA "hacker" crew would design a "mod-prevent" tool :D

Falcon 4.0 Abandonware??? You'd better let everyone know then...particularly the Open Falcon and Red Viper Mod teams! Abandonware...Is it not the Most Active Forum on SimHQ after IL2? What is possible to Mod? Well apart from everything...FMs Weapons Parameters, Avionics, The Dynamic Campaign, Graphics, Cockpits, Enemy AI, Addition of a realistic Ramp Start sequence...apart from that...Not much!

Janes F/A18 was released in 2000, a whole year before IL2 which was released in 2001

CFS3...can anyone say that CFS3 hasn't been improved by the OFF and MAW Mods?

So in summary...your post to trash Flight Sims that have been actively modded by the community is flawed and you failed to post a single example of a Flight Simulation which has suffered from an active community and third party modification.

I'll let that speak for itself...

jb - What you forgot to mention is that both Falcon4 and EAW suffered badly from the mods in regards to their communities. The mod-wars of Falcon are legendary as are the FM-wars of EAW. The mods fractured the community and the flamefests that followed made the Ubi-Zoo look like a well-behaved bunch of kids. ;)

Yes, but thats the fault of the community not the Mods themselves...the only relevent question is...was Falcon 4.0 better before or after the SuperPak mods? Was EAW better before or after the ECA mods?
If the Sims were better with the addition of the Mods then thats All that matters...The Mods are a Good thing.
If people want to fall out over them, moan, bitch and whine about them...thats their perogative but as a Sim Player i'm just interested in the best, most immersive, most realistic Sim experience and if thats through the utilisation of third party mods then i'm quite happy about that!

That is your POV - mine is that mods are not good. Reasons for this view are varied and somewhat difficult to explain. Let's leave it at that. :)

Everybody already knows, you better check your dictionary for the term "abandonware" ;)

And it died...that's all that is important, say Hello to all the 4 guys playing it online :D :D

OFF and MAW came quite a long time since CFS3 already died and as much as I appriciate all and any efforts to produce something new on the field of flight simulation games, both are outdated for todays standards. I'm sorry but for il2 standards CFS is dead in online play segment...

So Brain32 what you are saying is that Mods can make Older Flight Sims better, Mods can make Flight Sims that aren't as good as IL2 better, Mods can make games that are no longer supported by their developers better...they can improve Jet Flight Sims and they can Improve Prop Flight Sims...
But they cannot improve IL2...I can't really understand the logic...but nevermind!

And the examples of the Flight Sims that are worse after the addition of quality community created Mods are?

Even hacked open, this sim is not moddable like those others sims -- I assume no new maps or aircraft are possible for example, although never underestimate what could happen over time.

The most important use for the current hack derived modding may be deep customization of the sim for each customer, not exactly "modding."

As for StrikeFighters, the sim is closed to independent 3rd Party dynamic campaign engine creators. Even master Lowengrin can only make a campagin editor. As aircraft/object modding and independent campaign engine creation to be of equal importance, stock FB which allows Lowengrin's campaign mods and SF which allows aircraft mods are both partially open sims.

Jason you fail to understand only one thing, one VERY important thing. IL2 was not meant to be modded, I really like many of the mods I saw on "that place" but I don't like possible consequences of modding in general, that's it.
Now if the game was made from the begining with modding in mind it would be an entirely different thing, and we wouldn't have this discussion at all ;)

exactly

CFS may have been "improved" by mods into MAW, but that doesnt change the fact that MAW is a piece of garbage. (in my humble opinion that is)

And im not even comparing it to IL2, its a peice of garbage all by its own, propably because its based on CFS game engine more than anything else.

Everything is relativ. In those old sims u mention it doesnt take much to "improve" the game since its crap (or old) to begin with. If mods where to be approved by oleg in IL2 ill bet u a sack of money that a maximum of 5% would hold enough high standard to make the cut, the other 95% makes it into any of the above mantioned "good" modded sims.

Sry if im to rough in words, but u talk about all the other sims like they are alive and kicking, and expands due to mods when u are perfectly aware of that fact that thats not the case.

Remember offline is not the same as online. Online is what we are talking about, thats what all this is about.


Let me put it this way: Name one other online WWII combatflight sim that can be compared to IL2.

Once again I'll say, look at the online numbers, they are dead. Why do you keep bringing them up? You may have bought CFS3 for a few new mods, but 100 others dumped it.

OH MY GOD.......Winge ,whine ,moan, grumble ,complain.....give it a rest, no one has ever invented anything that cant be destroyed,broken into, hacked, modded,.....ECT,its the way of the world and it will forever be this way,if your all cheezed off about the cheaters ,,then form your your own tight nit sim groups where no one else can get in and you feel safe from all the booooogy men out there.
Ive played this game for years but the biggest dissapointment was the sound, ITS NAF,so I added a sound mod and WoW it transfomed the game for me, since then ive added a few more to make the game a bit more realistic, but never anything to give me an unfair advantage or anything that isnt aicraft correct, I could if I wanted to but I dont , I know enough about this game and its aircraft to notice when somone is cheating and I just dont play them anymore, I like the realism in sturm, thats why I play it but I accept that spoilers are allways lurkin in the near distance, its just a fact of life. By the way some of the mod sites are fantastic , there working realy hard to keep this game interesting and enjoyable for people like me and there free too, Dont knock it till yav tried it..........
Jafa.

Yeah you're right! EAW, Falcon 4, Janes F/A18 etc etc...they were all crap! I'll bow to your superior knowledge and discernement!

Well theres BOB II - WOV I enjoy both that and Il2

So, just how does BoB II stack up online vs. IL2?

I'd say they both give me everything i'm looking for in an Online Flight Sim :)

you can play BoB II online?.... through a crystal ball maybe??

Jason.... are you sure you did ever play online a sim?... or just even played a sim?... or do you just play forums?

It was a joke...I don't play Online so BOB II - WOV gives me everything im looking for in an Online Flight Sim
Cool down! It was humour :)

i´ve just read that post from fireflyerz who is very enthusiastic about the sound-hack.
i for myself think that hack is only usable to watch tracks but there it is great.
in the game however i really miss all the acoustical feedback from the original sound.
As long as that is not implemented this hack is all show but no gain.
I´ve also tried the 6dof-hack and i must concede it is great but again it is only usable if everybody uses it, if not it is a cheat and useless for ernest online play.
so i´ve tried some hacks and i´ve found them wanting.

@jason: maybe your last message was joke, but your previous wasn't... and the question you answered was about _online WWII combatflight sim_.

In any case, I tried BoB II to.... stayed less than 1 week on my DD.

Fair point...I only read the WWII Flight Sim Part...
Though it was a bit of a redundant question..the market isn't exactly flooded with competitors is it...and nothing is so good it can't be improved on!

Sure.... nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved.
IL2 is a perfect example, having been improved constantly during the 6 years of its life (still not being perfect, and even largelly perfectable on many points... I agree).

The problem is that "improvement" without quality control do produce a bit of real "first class" improvement.... and a huge bunch of .... stuff who's "improvement" only in the mind of their creators (I stay polite... but "garbage stuff" is usually more appropriated).

Now who can do a quality control with some expertise... and while being accepted by all players as a reference?
There's only one answer that can satisfy most of the players (if not all.... except maybe some modders, thoses who will see their creation rejected...)... it's the game dev.

That "crap" part was mostly directed at CFS1-3 since we are talking about online WWII sims, and European Air War is just..old.

Baron:: No opinion on MAW myself other than some may enjoy it for whatever reason. The CFS core coding was abandoned by Microsoft long ago while Oleg continued to improve his. However, the anti-social forum behavior "garbage" insult fails to prevent people moving to the FB/PF mods, unfortunately unauthorized, and may even encourage mod use here by showing that hostile anonymous public server computer gamer social behavior is to be ignored.

Baron:: Until we support Oleg Maddox ourselves by paying a Monthly Fee for cheat-free anonymous public server gameplay, we are talking about Offline players.

There was another way: Sharing our sim with Offline players through Maddox approved methods, but we declined this opportunity to help our fellow customers by trashing them (and other Online players) on the western publisher's forum, accusing them of "wanting to cheat online." Now we pay the price, and get what we asked for -- a hack that is growing in popularity instead of officially approved tools that Oleg could keep from being used on anonymous public servers.

That part is just absurd. So if I leave my car unlocked and some jerk steals it, I asked for it and he shouldn't be held accountable? C'mon. lol

It was so asinine I just couldn't even bring myself to even respond to it...

Man ohh man... and saga continues :D

How about summing it all up and call it a day...

Problems:
1) Code was hacked and .... tools released - Thanks QTim, man of his word!! Not!.
2) Everyone and his brother can stick their sticky fingers and make up things to their liking.
3) Online part of the community is upset.
4) Offline part of the community is excited.
5) Online part of the community is mad on offline part for being excited...
6) Everyone fights over their own POV.
7) 1C forum turned into battlefield.

I can go on and on based on the 100+ pages.. but as i said before.. there is only one solution for ALL the problems and there is absolutely no need to repeat the problems over and over..

Solution:
Reliable server side check for validity of the IL-2 installation.

Result - all problems will go away :) If Oleg will not have time to produce this solution, someone else will. Have faith, the person that you arguing with might be the hot #$#it programmer that could make things happen, he could be the one that comes up with solution. So, lets wait till the final patch and take it from there.

IL2 Punkbuster ftw!!!

At least for another year or so.

Your post makes too much sense,so we are not sure if it has any place here in a soundmod thread.

Punkbuster is a joke.

I've seen so many aimbots, wall hacks, modded weapons on COD4 servers with punkbuster that it isn't even funny.

It's a placebo to make people think they are gaming in a safe environment, just like CRT=2.

I really wish people would just disable crt=2. It keeps out some mods but not most. All it's really doing is keeping people with vista from playing on some really good servers. I have a switcher to turn off the mods when I want to fly on non-mod servers but it does no good as I cannot get in, sucks to be me....

I am not sure why server admins keep crt=2 or even=1 for that matter. It`s been proven time and again that it doesnt stop much....

Give that man a ceegar...

Forgot two...

3) Online part of the community is upset.
4) Offline part of the community is excited.
5) Online part of the community is mad on offline part for being excited...
:
:
8 ) Another Offline part of the community is upset over legal/moral implications.
9 ) Another and growing Online part of the community is excited.


BSS_Sniper:: To be more applicable to our discussion here, the auto theft analogy requires "your" car to be 95% paid for by the one who supposedly "steals" it.

C'mon? Lets see...

For almost five years at the western publisher's FB/PF forum, Offline and many Online play customers asked Oleg for deeper options and modding to one degree or another. Instead of helping to convince Oleg to offer these feature officially and in a way that would not affect anonymous public servers that might choose not to use these features, a loud "leadership" minority of hostile anonymous public server gamers accused these customers of "wanting to cheat online" along with other traditional computer gamer insults often seen on many computer gaming forums.

In summary, we refused to share the sim with the people who pay for our "free" cheat-free anonymous public server gameplay. We get what we asked for.

Discussion?

Again LEXX, the guy that never play online teaching the online players how to play and who to play with.
Sorry LEXX. You don't really understand online play so please don't tell us how to play it.

I understand social behavior, and can see how Online play becomes "real life" and no longer just a simulation, and gives Online play it's greatest advantage, as well as potentially it's greatest weakness, entirely depending on who we choose to associate with.

Many Online players do understand Online play. As one honest Online player poasted at simhq about two years ago...

You see I appreciate our offline community. They are the ones doing great missions, great campaigns and maybe put more money into Oleg's pocket then the online guys. I greatly appreciate them and have nothing against them or against how they decide to enjoy the sim. My post above was not against the offline community. Was only a remark to your post. Honestly you are constantly trying to tell us who to play with and how.
You don't play online so you don't really know why we play the way we do for the last five years, and what made this game so special.
I like to play with as many people from this community. I'd rather treat all players as honest and have to change my opinion of few of them along the way, then treating all but a handful of my friends as cheaters.

That's the only difference in the way i see online play in this game and the way you tell us to play.
If it was for me I'd rather pay per play and have a company take care of the server and bad apples. But it would have to be a much bigger server.:mrgreen: Just like in Aces high or WW2OL.:mrgreen:

Ah btw. Online play doesn't become "real life" is just the same simulation enjoyed with friends over a couple of drinks.

Lexx,

I have been sitting here experiencing you blow nothing but wind out your rear end.

Are you for real? Seriously man, you seem to produce the most amazing amount of non-sensicle drivel in order to attempt to validate a blatant HACK! The original analogy was reasonable, except that I don't think the keys were left in the car. I think some lowlife stole them or just plain broke in. You DO NOT OWN THE CODE! You PURCHASED A LICENCE AND A LOCKED CODE THAT YOU AGREED TO UPON LOADING! If you lease or rent a car, you may over time pay more than the worth of that car. This does not mean that the car is yours to keep. In my own honest personal opinion, you now strike me as being an absolute idiot that randomly rants and raves about only semi related incidents by a somebody/nobody that made a statement somewhere else.
Example:

Who gives a damn what one person said. If somebody said in another forum long ago that "Lexx is a HACK DADDY that interferes with small furry mammals". Should that be spread around every other forum as gospel. Please come up with something substancial for pete's sake.

And as for this:

What the hell is this? You seem to take off on accumulating a whole bunch of words and throwing them in between a capital letter and a full stop with absolutely no actual flow and this is not your best attempt. There was an earlier one that just had me bamboozled for several minutes trying to make sense out of it. In the end, I just gave up. You seem to be the Picasso of the english language and man, the results ain't pretty.


Oh boy, you are on a crusade aren't you?

Answer these questions honestly if you can:

1. Was the game purchased with a locked code?

2. Was the code HACKED (by whoever and whenever doesn't matter at this stage)?

3. Was there any official "nod" for this code to be hacked?

4. Do you support the code hackers / mods / whatever you choose to call them?

5. Would you still be so blaze` and proud to stand up for them in a court of law?


Now answer these questions honestly if you can:

1. If someone parks in your street and locks their car. Is it theirs or yours?

2. Someone breaks into the car and leaves it open. Is this wrong?

3. You find out (doesn't matter how) that there was no approval by the legitimate owner for this person to have forced their way into the car. Did the person who broke into the car commit a crime?

4. The person comes over and askes to hang out in your place with the ill gotten goods from the car and even tells you to go out and help yourself as the car is no longer locked or even closed for that matter. Do you let them in and take up the offer of helping yourself?

5. Would you stand up for them in a court of law?


AND THE FINAL BIG QUESTION:

Do you support criminal activity?


As I have said before. I would love to see this game improved on and I know that there are alot of talented well meaning people out there. Heck I would even be happy to pay for a legit mod.

It doesn't matter whether it is Maddox Games or Boeing Corp and whether you totally agree or not. All people have a right to defend their registered products.

I shall now leave you with one final question:

Will you cry "FOUL and hard done by" if Maddox Games or 1c choose to take legal action against you and your buddies? And even if you are not directly guilty of the HACKING, will you stand up in court and defend the others potentially making yourself liable?

Better have a long hard think about it.

Oh! and one more thing.

If some lowlife thieving mongrel sneaks in one night and steals you work laptop or some other valuable tool of your trade. Remember to smile and wish him/her well. Actually you could just leave your own doors and windows unlocked just in case some honest person needs a drink of water on their walk home. If you hear a noise, dont worry. It will probably be the honest person trying to find a glass for the water. So don't bother getting up and disturbing them.

Sweet dreams ;-)

Thanks Jaws. You are saying EXACTLY what I am thinking too. I had to dragg it out of ya. :oops: :oops:

There is an alternative that does not require massive Pay-To-Play through the publisher, and which appears to be Oleg's plan for BoB And Beyond...

Oleg's Plan:
(1) Modding for Offline play and mod-friendly Online servers.
(2) No Modding for no-mod Online servers.

This is "sharing" the sim for the benefit of all. This will hopefully prove sufficient to grow and maintain a huge interested Offline base that can pay for effective anti-cheat protections without requiring Pay-To-Play.

You see, if Oleg *really* went Pay-To-Play whole hogg, and made a smashing success of it, he just might abandon Offline play development, as like the purely Online gameplay TargetWare developers, Oleg is not personally interested in Offline play development, at least to my knowledge.

~hi~ strewth

strewth:: ~by~ strewth

I have read some really really really absolutely absurd things from you over the years Lexx.... But the above is just about the most absolutely ridiculous nonsense I have ever read online... with few exceptions .... What in the world makes you think that Oleg kept the code to the sim locked because of the online community... or that we had any influence over him at all in that respect? Pfftt!! Sometimes I wonder ......

He probably kept it locked because he didn't want it copied.... because this sim is still.. after all this time a cut above anything else on the market... ANYTHING... and you can talk all that offline nonsense you want to... we will see if BoBII WoV is still a viable product 6 years from now to any mentionable degree other than the past tense... especially if it does not convert to some kind of online play.... Time will tell... I sure hope that hack buster gets here...

Okay.... well how about this?
 

Ok. Well, true this is my first post here, BUT:

I've been watching this debate for weeks now, and its just gotten too much for me NOT to stick my nose in.

Ok, yes the both sides have a lot of VERY valid points - alot of which cannot really be argued. HOWEVER, I dont see the point in the constant bickering between everyone here.

Come on, its not rocket science to figure out that if anything is going to kill this wonderful sim, its the arguing, the name calling, and the constant b!tch fights.

I havent tried the mods myself, personally... not for any reason in particular...

I have to agree with the logic, however, about the... unfortunate way they came about... With the legalities of it... However...

You'll have to have your head in the sand NOT to see that these are things people have been asking for for ages.

As for the 'cheating' possibilities... Well, the AAA forum DOES seem to be very anti-cheat. And from what I can see, thats the place where the majority of these mods are available (might be wrong, but no more than 90% of everybody that posts here). Not only that, but there's been ways of cheating out there, longer than the mods have been. Yes it might make it easier... but: WHAT does one stand to achieve. If anything they're only destroying their OWN experience. All you need to do is respawn and report them (valla-bing and they're banned).

Now, surely, we can stop acting like children, and behave like adults, and agree to disagree. Stop the name calling, the moaning, the accusations... and just leave and let live. Leave the "Us" and "Them" mentalities some of you are forming...

Instead of mearly continuing the last 100-odd pages of complete and utter garbage - why dont we instead, as I said above, put this behind us - as a community - and focus on a way we can RE-secure the game. Like others have suggested, yes maybe third party is the way to go. Yes maybe this would be the only option. It may seem a bit, ancient... but we seem to have no other choice.

No doubt, following the trend of these threads, someone a tad too stubborn to see this furball for what it is (pointless/fruitless/immature), will quote me - and pull apart my message... but even then - just think about it.

Well...?

so true. This thread needs to be locked already, can't believe it got up to 108 pages already.

WOW!

And yet that is probably the most understandable thing you have said to date.

Congrats. You are improving mate.

Don't forget
6)Online part of the community lets off steam by calling Offline Part of the Community..Hackers, Cheaters, Losers, Pirates, Theives, Stealers, vandals etc
7) Offline Part of the Community gets mad at the Online Part of the Community for being called all the names under the sun for no real reason other than Onliners are upset about the threat to Online Gameplay

I think the anology would be a little closer if you described it like this...You got to a car Showroom..Pay full price for a car you believe you are buying...the salesman never mentions to you that you are leasing the car, you drive the car home...on reaching for the service manual you notice a small slip of paper that tells you you are only leasing the car...after you have parted with your money...
Do you think you would have a case in court to show you'd be conned...damn straight you would!
Thats why so called "shrink wrap agreements" have been shown not to be enforcable...you don't get the agreement until after you have purchased the product.
You buy the software in good faith...only after parting with the money are you told its not actually yours to do with as you please...
They are called "coercive contracts" as they rely on an asymmetry of information...the vendor holds all the cards and you the purchaser are at a disadvantage.

There is no such thing as "locked" code, there is software...and there is software...1C wrote part of the game files in a particular proprietry format..what that format is has absolutely no legal bearing on anything...it could have been written in swahilli and it wouldn't matter...

When you say "Hacked" you actually mean...modified by legitimate purchasers of the game to improve their own gameplay experience...

Why would there need to be an "official" nod? Every single Flight Simulator, no wait...let me not narrow it down every single flight, combat, naval, racing etc etc simulator has been modified by its community...

Yes I support the efforts of legitimate users who are trying to improve the gameplay experience for people...in exactly the same way as I applaud the hard work of skinners...campaign writers, utility developers etc etc...whats the difference?

In court! Don't make me laugh..not only has nothing illegal been done, but what software publisher would want to be seen taking their customers to court for modifying their software for their own personnel use? Thats just a joke!

The justification attempts get lamer and much more absurd with each passing day. :rolleyes:


Evgeny - do all of us a favor and lock this darn thread.

From memory it is called reverse engineering and product modification. With most software the publisher authorises the customer to use the programme in a manner prescribed by the publisher. Anything outside that is beyond the terms of conditions, and the publisher has the right to enforce that. Read any EULA. You click okay that you agree to the terms BEFORE you install the programme. End of story... <

That is not to say the 1C legal team, AND more likely UBI, are building a case for prosecution. Not heard any comments from them on the mods?

("Hey, I found your stolen car, I saw the lights busted and mirrors missing so I fixed them for you, they work better than the old ones, hope that's okay?")

Yes but while its never been tested in an identical situation (after all, what Software publisher would attempt to take their legitimate customers to court for non-commercial personal modification of their software?) in instances where it has been tested...the EULA has been found to be non-enforcable for the reasons I have stated above.

Why lame? Is that just an offhand remark that you hope will dismiss my argument...or do you actually have references and precedents to abck that up.
Can you point to relevent examples where breaches of post purchase EULAs have been shown to be legally enforcable?
Because I can certainly point to the opposite...
If you can't then i'll expect you to retract the remark.

There is no doubt that in a CIVIL Court of Law, this matter is enforceable if they wish too.

The bottom line, as you say, is that the EULA has been breached by using the mods. And whether UBI is going to enforce it. And whether the jurisdiction will have an effect on the reach of the enforcement.

But there is plenty of doubt that the EULA is enforcable in a civil court of law

Il2 End User Lisence agreement. Are you sure you want to go after just those that are modding the game? As per the EULA, anyone who has made a mission, pianted a skin, done a movie, or even played online in something other then a UBI game room is breaking the terms of the EULA. So I guess everyone that bought any of the IL2 series is one way or another breaking the law and UBI will be coming for us all. EULA from FB below

The User recognises that all of the rights associated with the Multimedia Product and its components (in particular the titles, computer codes, themes, characters, character names, plots, stories, dialogues, places, concepts, images, photographs, animation, videos, music and text contained in the Multimedia Product), as well as the rights relating to the trademark, royalties and copyrights, are the property of Ubi Soft and are protected by French regulations or other Laws, Treaties and international agreements concerning intellectual property.

It is not permitted:
- To make copies of the Multimedia Product,
- To operate the Multimedia Product commercially,
- To use it contrary to morality or the laws in force,
- To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work,
- To transmit the Multimedia Product via a telephone network or any other electronic means, except during multi-player games on authorised networks,
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
- To decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Multimedia Product.

So here we are, right back at the beginning.

While the pseudo lawyers in this forum blather away, I'll just say that personally I know right from wrong, and no legal mumbo jumbo, no matter how you twist it, can replace my moral stand on this issue.

Exactly right back to where we started...
Onliners claiming its illegal or immoral or irresponsible for offliners to use the sound mod...
Where what they really mean is they can't trust the other onliners they choose to play with to behave responsibly.
If its shown not to be illegal...they'll claim its immoral...
If the claim that its immoral is shown as laughable they'll claim its irresponsible...
If the claim its irresponsibles is shown to be hot air they'll claim its selfish for offliners to enjoy themselves at the expense of onliners...and so the argument goes around and around in circles...
Every single thing the Online crowd says against the Sound Mod can be shown to be meaningless and false...
The only thing that stands up is that it has made it easier to cheat in anonomyous Online servers...
But surely thats something for the Online community to take responsibility for...
I for one am fed up of being scapegoated for the inadequacies of a small minority of juvenile online players...
Put your own house in order first!

jb - Resorting to the tactics you criticize (namecalling and insults) shows how little substance your "defense" really has. Just to refute your ridiculous claim on who disapproves of the hacks: I'm 27 (about to turn 28 next week) and play 90% of my flying time offline. I disapprove of hacks and modding in general because the now 8 years of flight sim experience have shown me that "the community" cannot be trusted to deliver historical and technical realism without an independent entity checking the work - precisely what was done for Il-2. I regard it as grave error to allow modding for SoW but woild have prefered a more fleshed-out and more thought-through system of managing 3rd Party development, a process which should (must!) include the basic component of historical relevance for any inclusion. Free choice, as Il-2 development has shown, leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to how individual projects fit into the game's environment.

Am I a cynic? Perhaps (or most probably) but all I have to do to get some hard evidence on why "the community" is not able to be civil and police itself is the collection of message boards with the UbiZoo at the top. You'll find loads of people thinking of themselves as god's gift to the flight simmers while they fail to realize their own stupidy and the blinders they wear. I'd rather give up flight simming at all than give these people the slightest chance of influencing development - regardless if it's FM, DM, armament or even the most basic decision on which planes/objects/ships get made.

Pretty much it.

And for the record (again). I appreciate the talent of the community and do not have an anti-offline view as many want people to believe. I fly online and offline regularly and enjoy both sides of it. I DO NOT regard all offliners to be HACKS and I don't regard all modders to be HACKS. The Hacks IMO are people that broke into a piece of software that was not meant to be messed with. As for the skins issue. I am of the belief there was never any attempt to lock them out and if you don't agree with the software terms, you can always return the game. I really hope that the game can continue to improve.

Guess what the mod has to do to work?

Technically skinning and mission building do not interfere with the code. And are sanctioned by UBI/1c. So there is no problem there and never has been.

Modding in this case is about the unauthorised "cracking" of the code.

This pretty much summarizes the whole situation in a nutshell. The rest of the blather here is exactly that..

Absolutly not:
- Making a mission is allowed by the mission editor who is a game feature. Using mission made by user is another game feature. It's like when you write a document with word and then read it with word.... using a software feature (so something which is not only part of the software, but wass also advertized as a game feature and one reason why people buy the game) is of course 100% legal
- use of user-made skin is also a game feature (also advertized and part of what you bought)
- playing online by IP is also a game feature, who was advertized and can be used legally. When you bought the game, you never signed an engagement to play trhough Ubi game Room).
For a movie.... it can be argued (as per "derived work" creation)

Considering the product you bought a user-license is protected by the French law about intellectual property, yes Qtim tools and modders that use them could legally be sued (but nobody can know what would be the court decision)
.... BUT..... once this is said.... then nothing is said.
Because Ubi would never spend a Euro cent to enforce intellectual property on a game which is commercially dead (or near to be)
... So neither Qtim, nor any modder will be sued
... So all this "legal debate" is useless and don't help in any way to solve the problem (which is the integrity of the online play).

Morality is another thing.... but turning the debate in a "good vs Evil" wont help more.

Now to answer Jasonbirder
Because official control is the only way to assure centralized quality control.
IL2 has also been highly modified (planes, maps, etc...) by the community... but under control.
Yes, there wasn't "free modding" during 6 years... and was it to its detriment?
The fact that IL2 today is the most succesfull combat flight sim ever... and this 6 years after the start and without "free modding", is a proof of the contrary.
Some say that would have been even better with "free modding"... but the reality is that nobody knows (and having know CFS world and other "free modded" combat fligth sim, I highly doubt it would have been the case).

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Now we could maybe go back on the only real concern (since now "free modds" are part of IL2 world): how can we secure online play again?

... at this point (that was reached allready long ago, as presented by Bearcat and others) pure offliners could just leave the debate.... since online play integrity is absolutly not their concern.

Bearcat (page 108 ):: I'm with ya Bear. We could have tried instead of refusing to share the sim with others...and that's the whole point -- if we tried to help, our moral message today would be worth listening to, but we wasted it 4 years ago.

4 years ago...
Today...We had our chance to at least try but we didn't take it.

Reread what Bearcat said Lexx..
You obviously didn't understood what he wrote.

Oleg is a big boy and wasn't forced to keep the game secure by anybody. That was his politic. A politic who proved to be successfull during 6 years.
It was also his politic to keep "free oppening" narrow, and to have modding controlled by his team. This also proved to be successfull during 6 years.

As the QMB offers a method of selecting and viewing skins, skin mods have always been officially approved. At least that's the way I see it.

Interestingly, the role of the Default skin shows how a sim can be crippled by adopting restrictions that attempt to prevent Online cheating. In this case, cheating with non-Default skins.

Rama:: Say a jar of marbles has 95 red marbles, and 5 blue marbles, for a total of 100 red and blue marbles.

We could claim the jar has red and blue marbles, and we would be correct! We would also be missing more detailed information of the jar's contents -- relative numbers of red and blue marbles.

Offliners and Onliners each paid for each box that each purchased.
Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

As one honest Online player at simhq poasted about 2 years ago...

It doesn't change anything to the fact that once they bought the box, they got what they paid for and that nothing more is due to them... this is right for every purchaser, either he plays online or offline or both, it doesn't change anything and don't give the buyer any right to require anything more.
If someone don't like the dev politic, he is free to vote with his money, either by not buying the game, or by not buying the addons afterwards... especially when the dev advertized clearly what were his choices and what objectives he try to reach.

Show me in the EULA where UBI sanctioned skinning and mission building this is what I got out of the EULA. To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work, To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios.

LEXX:: Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

Rama:: It is true we agree.

As we were discussing, we had the chance to try and help the Offline base and the many Online players. And as poasted to Bearcat, that is where we failed. We shall review...


4 years ago...
Today...
Four years ago, we refused to even try to help others who paid for our sim's development, and we turned against them with hostility and contempt, and today we expect them to believe we have a "moral" message for them?

We don't. We threw it away. Now we pretend to be "shocked" and "angry."

Very well said... I just disagree with the higlighted part.... I think history has shown us very very clearly what happens to online play when modding is allowed.. that is the reason why so many online flyers are bemoaning the lost of integrity of the sim.. which was a major draw... believe me... if CFS 3 had not been a mod fest... and yes, some of the mods were very well done.. but there was a lot.. tons in fact.. of pure cr@p to wade through to find the good stuff... and if CFS3 had had the same integrity as FB I am willing to wager that a lot more folks would be flying it still... For many of the simmers who came here.. especially in the past 4 years or so I bet that the fact that the code was un moddable was a very strong draw... Coming from Janes, EAW, any of the CFS series or any other highly moddable sim where online play became like that box of chocolates Mrs. Gump talked about.

What Billfish was saying is the same thing that Rama is saying..... Not that the opinions of onliners do not count in the sense that they are literally worthless, which is how many of the offliners took her comments, but that the solution will not come from them.. because they have repeatedly said over and over and over that online play and the integrity of said play means very little to them, hence forth their opinions have little merit from a solution standpoint.

This sim wouldn't be as popular as it is now had it been moddable from day one... and for any offliner to insinuate that they have paid for "online stuff" is d@mn near textbook Orwellian. Like Rama said... the onliners paid for the same things the offliners did.... whatever version they got.... and they DID NOT pay for all the same things that the onliners DID NOT pay for... all those great free patches over the years.

And I guarantee you that for all the talk.. as soon as any kind of mod detector/defeater/definer comes along, whether it is scalable or not... meaning settable on the server side from allowing all mods to allowing all but FM/DM/Weps mods to allowing stock IL2 ONLY.... the hack crowd.. not neccessarily the same ones who are doing or benifitting friom the mods.. but the ones who busted the door in the first place, will be all over it... and many of those nice folks who ...only fly offline anyway will as well..... Time will tell.....