Your attitude is showing.

Everyone on this forums knows the story. Updates are not guaranteed.

Blacksix tells the truth and some of you guys don't respect that. You can't do better than absolute truth, you have to learn to deal with it. Maybe, if he lied about it and didn't give a flip what he said you'd be happier.

You keep it up and he will go away and you'll get zip for updates. He has a job working for the dev, but he is busy enough he doesn't have to do the community liason thing.

Just take what news you get as good news and bear with the rest of us who are glad to get that news.

It's not about being a customer, spending your money and such. I spent several thousand USD on a graphics program and I've had more problems with it than COD. Yeah... and I found a memory leak too. Goodluck on me getting my money back as well.

COD is a $50 program and many have paid as little as $10 USD for it. Put it away like so much other stuff and wait. Your frustration will diminish greatly, if you move onto other things you can enjoy.

Ragging on the developer will get you nothing, except into a worse situation than now. Most of us remember gettting NO NEWS or UPDATES. Yeah, and those were the days of joy for sure.

I give the devs a big star for trying, even if they can't put something out every week or so to appease some.

:rolleyes:

The "majority" is patient waiting for the patch, only a impatient minority is vocalizing their discontentment, very often after a consent seems to be reached between forum and devs.

Let's face it. The majority that counts for the devs simply doesn't buy this piece of software because of the bad reviews. And please don't tell me that the reviews are fake or that the people are only whining.

Nobody denies the issues, but bitching about the same thing day in and day out does nothing...

If I was into WWI sims I wouldn't even bother with Maddox Games. I'd just go straight to a company that, having faced similar problems, is able to provide constant info on the progress of its product (rise of flight). But sadly I'm not.

Wonderful, but again, what does bitching about it say after day do for you, you dont think the devs know how much negativity is surrounding this game? All you are doing is increasing the negative vibe for yourself and others, it does no good.

I'm hoping for Luthier to bitch back to get at least some sign of life about CloD. ;)

Translation:

I'm trolling.

Forums are like marriages... sometimes its just better not to say anything ;)

+1 on everything in your post, and I hope you count me in as one of the formerly disciplined users that has turned "to the dark side". I also work as a manager in the software development business and I work a lot with process development for service support and delivery using ITIL as a framework like most other large companies. Customers can take a LOT if you communicate with them and many times you get amazed with the things they can accept if they get a fast response and regular updates on their reported incidents. What does NOT work is blaming others and failing to communicate back that their problem unfortunately is not solved yet.

One can also be amazed at the bad-will that can happen if a user that has an annoying problem with your software files an incident and it gets stuck in the system so the user even doesn't get a response in weeks. Suddenly you make the first page of some major newspaper and then the situation is out of your control... Modern media where all newspaper articles are also posted on websites with public blogs attached to each article makes this even worse. Suddenly the bad publicity article about your company gets a thread with hundreds of other users that whine about the problem that never should have been up for public discussion in the first place. That's a fact with the new communications channels available now.

For a product like this forums are a major communication channel. If you fail to acknowledge that and the irritation among your customers gets as bad as it is here now you have a major problem. Starting to hint that the reason your disappointed customers wont get updates is because they are too irritated about the lack of communication is really not that good of an idea? Kind of like the death penalty... The society says you can't kill people so now we kill you to set an example.

Just as you say, last week many former supporters like myself had enough and joined the irritated group after the over-moderation here combined with the statement that we won't get any updates as we are so irritated... If I was the manager at MG I would take this dead serious and do the only thing possible to correct it by spending an hour posting here this Friday, and then spend 30 minutes each week for the regular Friday updates... But that's my opinion and it seems like the management of MG think another way about how to spend their time. They are really far down the trust road with their most loyal customers - and that is serious business where you have to accept that even if you are dead tired of the childish attitude of them - you have to bite the pillow and respond in a polite manner! That's how it works unfortunately...

ONLY A PATCH without BUG´s etc. is a good PATCH.;)



So we will wait for it. Then it´s SPRING:):):):)





THX


Towarisch

This, finally, is the update. Very brief, but to the point:


Initially it was stated that the patch was ready and then a very minor sounding bug was found.

Now, we learn there are 'new problems.'

Of course this was suspected, but why not just say it in an update: 'We had thought we were very close but now are stuck on a few new problems that came up. Patch release postponed without a clear time frame known.'

That would have been a much better communication strategy. Not 'there is no information and you customers are too irritating to respond to until I feel like it.'

Because it would be too simple and make too much sense. Seriously though I agree here, keep the updates frank, clear and to the point and I bet there will be less confusion and uproars.

It won't make any difference.

The members that care and are in good standing will continue to do what they do and the troublemakers will always find ways to spread their ilk.

Update or no update those of us who know the score will be fine with it.

We're just waiting for the patches...

:grin:

TRUE,... however there are limits! Something is got to give, there must be some alpha or beta patch available by now which we all will be more than happy to test!... Why they do not release that?

Because, as has been said ad nauseum, there would be no point. If a stop gap, probably buggy interim patch were released then the knashing of teeth and rending of garments would be deafening. The developers have said that as far as they are concerned the only thing that will pacify the customers is a fully working patch that fixes the major problems besetting the game at the moment. And that is what they have promised and are concentrating on. Until they are sure it is in the bag they are not giving any hints, timelines or concrete information as clearly some just cannot cope with the disappointment should some unforeseen slip occure between cup and lip.

I mean, how many explanations and apologies do you need from BlackSix before you accept they are communicating.

Well, working like that when developing software is how it was done in the 80:ies and 90:ies. Developers worked with fixed requirements set the start of the project, fixed resources but in reality no fixed point of delivery as all requirements had to be done before release - and minimal customer involvement accept for the initial requirements... After a while the customers got so annoyed with the results that took forever and did not meet the customers expectations that the development managers realized that it maybe was a bad idea to work like that? These days the most of the software development world work in another way (agile development, XP, Scrum - there are many names but the same core principle applies). You have fixed resources, fixed points of delivery (you release to customers every 3-6 weeks) and the thing that is variable is what gets into the release... You work tight with the customers and get feedback every month from the end users what they liked and when you start the next sprint (the 3-6 week long iteration that end with a new end user delivery) you use the customer feedback to decide what goes into the sprint. After hearing that the users that really liked X but not Y the way it worked in the system it's possible to maybe focus more on X and less on Y in the next sprint? Or maybe ditch Y? Or fix it? Without the feedback from the customers there are just a bunch of engineers guessing what the end users like - and engineers are not good at guessing! ;)

But not in mother Russia...

They are a very small studio and we are lucky to have them, just hold on and enjoy the parts that are playable with your system while you wait. I enjoy it now, and look forward to any improvements that help people waiting to fly...people need to upgrade their systems though:)

I think most care more than you think. Not everyone expresses themselves as well as they might. Some here truly do stir the pot. Others I think, like myself, have adopted a wait and see approach. The rest have been able to maintain an amazing enthusiasm for CoD. But IMO, it's the us verses them attitude that is growing here that spells doom for this "community". Especially when it is fostered by the mods.

+100 :)

+101.

I agree (despite being critical of recent public relations efforts).

This is a cool project, obviously very technically challenging. It takes time to bring it to its full potential.

I'm not very vocal here on these forums,I look forward to the patch and really do enjoy the videos/ pics of the upcoming sequel.

I very much hope the Friday updates continue,Thank You

you are very welcome here...;)

+102

Well said Slipball, a bit of perspective doesn't hurt.. pity not all members have this ability.

The point is we bought an unfinished product that is still not working a year later... We bought the initial version on good faith...but we still have a Sim that you can't fly for more than 30 mins most of the time in MP.... It is no wonder customers are stomping their feet.. Frankly, with what has transpired, it is not surprising at all...it is easy to lose faith after so long. I would be shocked if this Sim survives and becomes what we thought we were buying.

Nothing to see here? If anything significant happens, I will see it when Steam Downloads whatever is coming next errr... whenever.

MegOhm is right. Whilst the team is small, underfunded (?), limited by certain factors etc etc, it doesn't excuse a shoddy product or false statements, or even comments saying they won't offer the community anything because certain people are negative.

hardly professional. You can sugar-coat it as much as you want, but the time has come now for the buyers to choose whether or not they will offer their continuing support. It seems the more engrossed you get in the politics, the more you're put off supporting the team.

It is best to play something else and be patient, but as I said above: it doesn't excuse a faulty product.

Many forum members have been tireless in offering the team support, information etc and I don't think they have really gotten anything in return; least of all messages saying that, because the team is upset, they may discontinue weekly updates. It seems rather childish to me.


Best scenario? Let it dry out. It's only a PC game. If they don't need to community as much as they let on, we have nothing to worry about. This sim isn't going to go anywhere anytime soon.

You lot really are unbelievable, you're not even considerate enough to wait for the patch before passing further judgement. You KNOW the team are working hard to fix the product. You KNOW the patch is close to release. You've seen what they've already achieved with regards to sound but no.....you have to lay the bl**dy boot in again, and again and again.

And MegOhm says, oh, I don't think the product will survive, the sky is falling down.

Get a grip you guys. You remind me of some thugs standing over a victim and kicking them in the teeth every time they try to get up. No help whatsoever. Achieving NOTHING, ZILCH, ZIP.

Sutts I see you, kicking phillip in the teeth because he has a different opinion. I see you getting cross and swearing I see you raising the aggression bar. Nothing Philip or MegOhm said was untruthfull or a lie.
You just dont want to hear it or accept it.
Is the sky falling if you accept it as the truth that some paying customers may feel this way after a year, I think not so take some of the medicine you wish to dish out and chill the heck out.

+1

Not to be cynical, but this place is turning from a boring place to an highly entertaining arena. 1C should sell the tickets.

That may be true DroopSnoot, I just see negative statements like this to be unnecessary and potentially damaging to the way visitors to the forum perceive the product.

"the time has come now for the buyers to choose whether or not they will offer their continuing support"

"the more you're put off supporting the team"


Why even talk about cutting support for the developer when we haven't even seen what they've been working hard to deliver these past months? At least give them the chance to rectify things.

Actually now there is no other reason to be here, cause we all know that no patch will be soon nether a real update about it...:grin:

:grin: I had dropped off here, only checking weekly for the official updates but lately it has become astonishingly fun daily entertainment. I will be a little sad when the patch/new release comes out and the meltdowns stop. But then, I'm sure after a subsequent month or so it will be back to normality (as it is now)

Regards, Sam.

Can you direct me to the post in which Luthieer/BlackSix said so?

I'm not supporting these suggestions at. I'm merely playing Devil's Advocate. Look at my last few postings, and my stance should seem pretty clear. The team has no wish to upset the community and ruin their business, but recent postings (perhaps translation issues?) appear otherwise.

I don't think people need to be lectured to offer support. If a new customer came here, unsatisfied with the product, and had the developer post a Banjo video, they would be pretty annoyed. You have to be a long-term member to see the humour; so if we are to assume the team are catering for the long term members, and the long term members are now getting annoyed....

it's a tricky situation.

I promote what I've always said before: a topic may have a few negative posts, but if left in isolation they are harmless. If they get expanded into 20 page topics, it's then that the aggression, flaming, nastiness comes out. From all sides.

I hope the patch is going to be released soon (2 weeks?)... or there's going to be a bloodbath here. :-|

I admit that following the daily Heroes against Cerberus and his pets is really amusing, but it's decreasing my productivity as worker. :-(

Hm, we could do with a "like" function on this forum.

I don't get it...if I can go on-line and really enjoy it, why can't others with better system than me:confused:...this sim is awesome even in the rough.

Because its not a matter of hardware, its a matter of glaring errors and omissions.

I also have a modest system and can enjoy it online. I just came back from an online session at ATAG, after 20 minutes inflight in my ju-88 I was just reaching the English coastline to take out the supply depot. I was so excited since it was my first online raid in a ju-88, just as I started to get a visible on the target I got the dreaded launcher crash, if my girlfriend and baby daughter wouldn't have been asleep a lot of foul and harsh language would have ensued. I'm just sticking to offline now, my time is too valuable, I only have time to play late at night and 20 lost minutes is a lot for me.:(

Wow bummer! I've yet to have one of those on-line, give a shout out if you see me, for an escort.

I don't get a lot of CTD's or launcher crashes but they always come at the worst possible moment it seems.:):( Yes! I could use an escort on those missions from Tramecourt, an irritating spit tried to take my Br.20 down last night, took out two of my gunners but I made it back to French soil.:grin:

Later last night we really beat the Brits like a red headed step child.
Thanks to awesome power of the Ju-88 and Bf-110 and great help from Bf-109 pilots going in front and dragging the RAF low (Thank you Tonka!http://www.ccpcreations.com/smilies/bow.gif), all targetrs went down in just over an hour.
Pure blitzkrieg.:twisted:


After RAF pilots signed the surrender papers, we made them wash our bombers and play Luftwaffe Marches. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...s/mockface.gif

That must have been after 56RAF left :P
We hacked down quite a few 109s and Do17s.

Is it politically correct to say "we really beat the Brits like a red headed step child".

My daughter is red headed though not a step child. She wants to know if you play WoW or LOTRO etc., so she can hunt you down and show you what a red headed child can do.

Be afraid!

Between red headed step childs, Blitzkrieg and Br20's it sounds like you guys were having fun:grin:

I believe we got our own back in the next mission :)

And I seem to recall a 110 that had its wing blown off from a 1/4 second burst of Spitfire .303s :twisted:

$@*&^)$&@)*$ :lol::lol:

That was quite a shock. I just saw a big fireball and my wing was gone.:o I was like: WTF? HAX!!:lol:

It was a long swim back to france.:mrgreen:
Your Blenheims did a great job. Got all the ships in one pass. Very impressive.:)

Just before we got the final target, I was lining up on another 110 near Boulogne. Just about to give him a squirt and CTD >:(

It's funny how some nights the game is an absolute joy to play and other nights you want to uninstall and flail your arms like a demented octopus. Not even talking about the CTDs here.

I think I definitely enjoy the game a LOT more when people are taking care of objectives rather than just looking for prey. For that reason I almost always exclusively do escort work for the bombers now or patrol our objectives in defense.

I just hacked 2 Hurris and 3 or 4 Wellies on ATAG, but the fun was somehow ruined by the sight of the first Hurri flying with half a wing missing, turning and going back home. It was eventually declared downed later, much later, as AI, I guess that he just landed and respawned.

Yeh, it's a bit off putting when the visual damage model is at odds with the physical, I had the old exploding 109 the other night, big fireball and he just carried on flying :(

Yeah playing CloD is frustrating because a great project is put off by a quantity of bugs. You see them at TO, combat, cruising etc. In just every situation there are some bugs showing off.

I've just found a new bug, the invisible cockpit: after landing and turning off the engine, when your plane vanishes and you are suspended 10 feet high in the air, the clickable cockpit labels still pop out when overing the mouse around.

Wonder Woman's jet modeled in game?

Have you flown the Hurricane with half a wing missing? It's not exactly easy.

I've had this happen to me a couple of times. Flying it back to base is very difficult and you have no possibility to do any real evasive moves without going into a spin. Attacking anything other than a target that is unaware or unable/unwilling to evade is pretty much impossible.

Plenty of real planes took damage like this and flew back home if enough of the wing was left to create lift on that side.

I find the exploding 109 thing far more frustrating from a DM point of view. I watched a 109 explode not once, but TWICE and keep flying along and evading and ATTACKING.

I believe you. But I've seen the entire scene of the wingless Hurry (about 50% of the wing) from a very close position :-). It was quite unrealistic, the plane didn't oscillate a bit, it looked very stable, she did an almost perfect turn and glided back towards base. I didn't finish her on purpose - I love posing as a gentle knight :-). By the way I had the same experience on a 109, I was able to fly her back and ditch without half a wing.

A recent message by B6, very appropriate to the current debate:

B6:
<<<<You can close your eyes for a message containing a pure and perfect hatred for us and our work. It happens. However, most of the negative posts, the forum on the west for example, is based on a completely fair reproach and conclusions. Another question that they are not of interest because of the repetitive, but the problem of this does not disappear, and it has to be dealt with. What I write here - so far only my vision of the situation and recommendations of the top, this is not a final decision is not leadership.>>>>



As I said, he is a nice guy

so are you folks reporting those bugs in the bug thread ?

kinda pointless being frustrated about it if there isnt a steady stream of reports about those problems, and luthier and Co wont come looking in obscure other threads for crumbs of info :)

All of these have been reported long ago.

Frankly, if they took care of HALF of what has been reported, I would call that a good day.

As for the 'oscillation', I doubt the vibrations would be visible from another plane or even that noticeable from inside it unless you're really really close to something (like the ground on landing). Landing in one of those half winged planes is quite a trick to do well. Aside from that, it's fun to try and nurse a severely damaged plane home. So, as bugs go, it happens rarely enough and provides a bit of fun. The only people who really aren't happy with it are those who want the kill (and if they really want it, the guy isn't in a position to fight back anyway, so just make another pass).

As for B6's comments above, regardless of how 'justified' a lot of what is being said on these forums is, I sincerely hope that the level of conversation can at least be raised up. Arguing that the product isn't finished might be cathartic, but at this point, there's no need for any more of it. They know what they need to do. Let them get on with it. There IS a patch coming. Once they deliver it, then we go back and see what is left to fix and request that they do it.

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/w...ngsAvenger.jpg

You can also fly aircraft with ripped off wings in other flight sims; http://forjets.netfirms.com/page5.html

A 109 is no Avenger.

I've seen that photo several times. But it looks that all the reports/pictures of "half a wing missing and flying straight" regard only a handful models of planes, namely heavy and stable ones (P47, TBD Avengers ...). I would be curious to know if swift & unstable planes (109, Spitfires, Hawker Hurricanes) would offer the same behavior, from an aerodynamic point of view. But this is a bit OT :-D

S!

And this Avenger crashed into sea near the CV group because it could not land and it had been a handfull to fly. There is more to the story than just the pic ;) And even in pic you see the pilot is not sitting relaxed to keep the plane in control..lot of work as it seems to me.

Also it had tail damage, the rear part of the fuselage took a hit in the collision as well.

I think that this kind of stuff might happen, but it should never be as common as you can see it now in CoD.

Mind that you can see this kind of stuff in ROF too, Camels or Dr.Is flying with just two half-wings and such, apparently there's sometimes a discrepancy between the real damage of the plane and the actual representation on the plane's 3D model...

Just to break this negative mood, I'll open a thread about "what I like the most in CloD".

With my superior wisdom I predict a vast amount of irony and sarcasm followed by bellows of "fanboi" and "whiner"... Let's hope I am wrong ;)

No, if mods will delete the OTs - doing the job they are paid for (paid with our appreciation, I mean ... :-))

Hurricane swift and unstable? Not any I've ever flew in IL2 or Cliffs.

:grin:

But I admit, it's been a while.

Hurricanes are about as rock solid as they come, loose most of a wing in a spit and your hitting the silk, in a hurricane i think its probably with good pilot skill able to get back under some form of stable control to at least climb to bail if needed.
I've had it happen online about 5 times and every time I've made it abck to base.

Shame it always gets blown off in the same point though. I though damage was real time?

Agreed. The Hurricane was notable as a stable gun platform when compared to the Spitfire. I should note, that any significant loss of wing in CloD that I've had while in a Spitfire has resulted in a spin from which no recovery was possible. I've only ever been able to fly the Hurricane in such a state (and with a lot of work at that).

Also, the Hurricane's wing is rather thick near the fuselage. I believe it creates a significant amount of lift there. I've no idea what exactly is going on with the flight model, but it's believable enough for me. Strikes that line between real and fun. I know it's a simulation and as such FULL real is supposed to be fun, but there's no way they can make it FULL real short of shipping an invitation to come out and fly a real Hurricane at Duxford in the software box. So they get as close as they can and hopefully it's fun.

I honestly haven't studied the 109 in enough detail to know what roughly how it might perform without pieces of its wing/tail assembly. I believe their wings are much thinner and might cause more problems in such situations though.

So far, so good ... :-)

Probably there is no patch this week.

Two weeks more..:grin:



yes i know.. almost trolling but I could'nt avoid...

I think more than 2 weeks.... 2 months to be optimistic

Well, take it or leave it ... and the more they work, the less the bugs ... and more improvemens! I take it as a positive indication.

Google translate from Sukhoi today:

Posted by xpzorg
Alexander, absolutely no new news from the front, no?

BlackSix:
Not yet, this week, the probability of the patch is small.

Does not sound THAT bad to my Google translate ear - almost makes me cry out "two weeks"... As I interpret that they are actually rather close as there at least seems to be a microscopic chance of a patch this week... A "small chance" is a lot better that "There will be no patch this week"? Does not sound like two months at least - but we have been wrong many times before ;)

We're not going to have the beta patch tomorrow, i´m sure. But neither a fews screenshots of the current work? nothing this friday again? Words is not enough for me at this time.
I suspect that most of us are still punished by our little patience with the developers...

Little patience? Is it some joke? ;)

The forums have been full of "little patience" for years. ;)

these shukoi news aren't very fresh indeed :confused:

Yeah how dare we request some more information about a product we paid for that should never have been released in it's current state. Shame on us.

Mini-update:
The patch is still not ready, do not expect it this week.

Ok thanks for the info B6, appreciate it. Will there be any other update today though?

No BoM screenshots till patch is ready because previous screenshot and video updates created too much negative reaction.

For BoB there is no screenshots because the new engine looks the same.

Luthier explained current status only 7 days ago.

Thus there is no logical reason for an update unless it sounds like the update that I can make every Friday morning:

Quote:

"We are still working on this, that and that but small issues with that and this prevent us from issuing a patch yet. We do hope that these small issues would not cause any major disaster when pieces of code are assembled and tested together. As the tests are not 100% complete unfortunately we can not give you any ETA ATM because s**t usually happens in the very last moment as anyone working in the industry knows."

:grin:

OK, RTB then :) THX for the mini update :)

Yes) IL-2 in the real engine

that's good... thank you

Thanks for the heads up BlackSix :)

Cool! Looking forward to it!:grin:

Thanks B6 for this "mini" update.

Some screenshoots. Cool:-P

Thanks B6

Fresh stuff from sukhoi.ru
 

1st beta patch (which is hopefully coming soon) will contain new engine only, no other fixes. AA is coming but later. 2nd beta or release will contain bug fixes but no ETA for it yet.

we can wait for other fixes for now... hope to see it soon

It strange that they know things like that and don't tell us for it? :confused:
but no AA yet :shock:

But thanks Ataros for the news.

I understand totally that the Devs taking things slow and don't want to rush an uncomplete patch out, but I'm asking myself if it is too complicated to release a "normal" patch with several bugfixes now.
Maybe the new version of the sound engine or just the small fixes which can be solved during some minutes (as luthier stated a while ago). Fixing the compass in the Ju-88 etc.

I mean I am completely unknowing in terms of software programming, but I thought one of the benefits of Steam are the easy way to implement a new update into the game.
If these kind of changes to the game ar not nexessarily connected with the new engine this would have been a great way to avoid some bad temper.

I guess the performance stuff is too interwoven with all the other components of the game so that if they release small fixes now they might get broken again or other stuff gets broken when the performance patch is released on top of that. I do agree though that there are TONS of smaller and bigger bugs that needs to be squashed and it would be nice if some of them will be fixed like, this year or something. I sure hope that the bug fixing patches won't take even half the time that the performance patches have. BTW, both the Ju-88 compass and the reversed He-111 needs fixing.:)

I have my thumb up for CLOD and 'm sure that almost everything will be fixed in time. But from the customer's point of view it goes too far too slowly. Last patch Oktober the 17 2011. I fully understand that many things have to be rewritten and this creates new problems all the time. It is a natural process when you encode softweare. It is complicated and it sometimes happens unintended event to register. But could the concept of Patch release not happen regularly instead of large amendment cover patch?

I wish they would take a look and see how the team behind Arma2 is doing it. They are really pro and doing a gret job, beeing in contact with customers/ modders ect. And they release a lot of batas that is backward compatible with previous vertioner up to the final patch. Small fixes all time improve it all the time and its amasing how great it work. That way you can choose whether to update to the latest beta or not. I get mine from SixUpdater and the same thing cut be dane, as you mention through Steam or just mauel download.

I hope they will look that way in future. It makes more happy customers, less blah blah blah from communities in genneral and many more hour in flight online with my friends. :-D

Happy progamming

The 109 too...I don't know, maybe the German's made the compass with 0 at the east position...it should be either E or 90.

I noticed you are using a Radeon.... have you checked out the morphological AA in the current drivers? Just checking as I'm currently running it with no performance hit whatsoever with a resolution of 1280x720 (Rig described below...as you can probably guess, I'm waiting on this patch moreso than many others may be. LOL) and it looks like I'm running on 1600x900 (My native Res)! Worth a looksy as, due to that nifty little feature, I'm not even bothered if they ever fix AA. :D

Anyhoo....

Cheers for the little update B6! Hopefully it won't be too much longer but, as has been mentioned before, tis better you guys sort out the particle problems before release. Good stuff. :)