Hmm I thought it was pretty clear and straight forward (in maybe an elaborate way) :):

"If you are an offliner then why would your opinion about the effects of the mods to the ONLINE community have any major validity(?) - it does not affect your sim experience one bit!"

I can only agree and I can't find that statement arrogant in any way.

Well in that case can we work under the assumption that as the Online community makes up a tiny minority of IL2 players and that their opinion is of no validity to Offline players...then this whole debate is over and done with.
Onliners opinions aren't valid to Offliners (A logical extension of your statement)
Offliners make up the majority of IL2 players (a point already proved and conceded)
Ipso Facto any Onliners opinions and comments are of little importance in a democratic sense...
So we can all embrace the sound mod as an unalloyed benefit and move on :)

I wonder when people stop chewing on what Oleg said back in 2002... those numbers dont hold water anymore. Internet spread out widely and so is online community. Nobody knows the real numbers, so stop bringing it up, really.

The point is the hysterical exuberance of the relative handful of the fraction of players who are onliners and get excited by the mod, one way or the other. Your imprecation to stop bringing it up might be more usefully directed at them.

I mean, when you've got Billfish making legitimist claims about who can and cannot have a worthwhile opinion, you know something in this world is getting silly.

cheers,
Ratsack

Yes boy, I did. I live in Germany and Laws are different than maybe were you live. That means I can not scare away customers or harras the customers. Regardless of my opinion of that company or not. Now, I am not saying that they WILL do that. It is just possible.

BTW, if I remember correctly, the EULA say "publisher" and not Oleg Maddox. So the software belongs to UBISOFT and no longer to Oleg Maddox. That is normal. Maddox games made the program for Ubisoft. I am sure that the fine print on the contract says that the intellectual property is owned by Ubisoft and not Maddox games. That is normal practice on the software branch. I may make the program, but normaly it is owned by the money givers. Why do you think it is published so strange. It is possible that Maddox Games has the say-so in Russia and were they publish it. But I think in the rest of the world it is Ubi.

You know EL, in every country the laws are different. What is a crime were you live, may not be a crime were I live.


DerAlte

I just started to think about a reply but thinking about it i found that it is useless.
Absolutely f***ing useless.
The people here are not discussing a problem, no. Everything is reduced to answer the
opposed post and state facts regardless how ridicolous they are.
This will be my last post in this thread, i will, however, continue to read it because there are
quite a few good laughs to find here.

Refreshing to see a high capacity for understanding on display here.
Any new 'accuracy' development of the game is in good hands, clearly.

What tiny monority? You keep saying tiny minority.. it may be a minority.. but it isn't tiny... if you consider that at any given time there are usually at least 400-500 players on Hyperlobby alone... that is at any given time.... You guys keep on going with this tiny minority bit... and that is just not true.. a minority.. perhaps... but definitely not the tiny minority that you claim.

Oh Hogwash.... talk about circular logic.... the reason K keeps bringing it up is that it is the online community that is most hurt by the whole affair and it is the modding communities responsibility to behave in an honorable way with these mods since if you don't use them you have no control over any aspect of them. The mod community is the one who keeps bringing this up by insisting that "the tiny online community" has had it's way all these years.. or that Oleg is catering to the "online minority" at the expense of the offline "majority" and that is one of the justifications for hacking the sim. Which is BS. It would all be fine and dandy IF as so many of the pro mod crowd insinuate, those who use the mods only did so offline, but that is not the case and we all know this, it is quite the contrary. So therefore that whole offline/online debate in terms of "Well I am aon offline flyer so why cant I do what I want and screw you.." is just selfish BS. Now again.... I know some of the guys who use the mods... and most of the guys I know would never cheat intentionally.. but the fact still remains that if Joe Blow and I are in a DF and he has mods and I am stock..... we are NOT ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. If the mod community had put as much energy into trying to come up with a failsafe way to insure that those who want to fly in mod free servers can do so instead of defending and indefensible position and the anti mod community had been more focused on pushing for a solution rather than a round robin rehash of the problem... and if both sides had put the childish name calling and posturing to the side a month ago perhaps we would be farther along the road to a solution rather than digging a trench with our feet by rehashing the same stuff.

Lightbulb moment. I had this thought some time ago.

as he is trying to justify imposing his wishes on the only group modding affects in a negative fashion....Onliners....

That actually a more telling statement then he realizes. In that because he is an offliner, he does not care about hedging that mods produce nor the ultimate cheating that is generated through them. IOW, having no concern for the community, yet only his own wishes as he is unaffected....

So as stated before, an instantly negated opinion as he risks nothing. How the world works.

K2

+1

I firmly believe that this turned into "Revenge Of The Offliners" scenario some time ago. They blame us for all the problems with the offline game, and there are problems with it I agree. So now they have their chance to "get back" at the online "boogie man" that held them down for so long.

Which is a load of nonsense on the face of it, but a casual walk through the threads over at their place pretty much confirms my suspicions. There is a core group over there that simply wants to bring down online, for their own perverted, juvenile gratification. Honestly, it's like sitting in the locker room of a not very mature sports team over there.

I was shocked.

Well, EL, it was the onliners who whined untill Oleg made the bombs do no damage after the pilot was killed........very realistic.

It is always a thin line to walk when you make a game for BOTH online and offline. What is "realistic" for one group (i.e. the above example) may ruin the other groups online fun.

I think Maddox game should make the next series (SoW) into 2 types to buy (seperate), a online version and a offline version. Make them non-compatible so the online crowd can continue to give each other wet-willies online.........j/k calm down Billfish.

That way, when SoW is cracked (it will someday, so is the way of things), the onliners don't need to say.... "YOU F***EN MODDERS RUINED MY, MY, MY, GAME!!!!!!!!!"

Think about Mr. Maddox.... 2 seperate version to sell, Offline and Online. Maybe you can make double the money. (BTW, I get 3 % of all profits for my idea.....LOL)

DerAlte

I think that it is near impossible...or who am i kidding, impossible, period... to work out our differences. It will never get off the level that we are on right now. Might as well just drop it, cause talking s$$it back and forth is not taking us anywhere... Hackers, sorry..modders.. will continue with their stuff, us, onliners will have to pray that either Oleg or someone else will come up with the solution.. There is no other way. Until then, nothing will change.

DerAlte...talking about grudge...jeez man, chill. It`s a holiday season, relax, have a drink or something :D

P.S. as was already stated, SOW will have MP and SP separated... so, there.

Well that ruins my 3% profit !!!!!! LOL :D


DerAlte

That is the best Maddox News I have heard in a long time!

Now what will the on-liners have to cry about...? :)

No 'crying' here. Just a coming to terms with twits like this who are handed the tools on a plate.


"Yes, after the nutcases at the Zoo and other forums.... CRACK IT !!!! F**K THEM !!!

If maybe they keep their mouths shut, I would say OK, we have ours and they theirs, but not anymore. All I want is revenge..... nothing but sweet revenge. I want to see "THEIR" game "RUINED".

That's right........I hold a grudge for a REAL LONG TIME !!! "

many abbrevations come to mind: omg, lol, wtf, ffs, lmao and omg again. i can almost see you guy's throbbing veins on your temples :D

Crazy Ivan wrote
When even a (Contemporary) Online poll has Online players in the minority...you have to realise that they are definately in a minority! Olegs quote might be from a few years ago...but at least its a reference...far better than "theres usually a few hundred of people online at Hyperlobby...so theres loads of Onliners" (Set against what was it...400K Units shipped?) which is a near to hard data as anyone from the anti-mod camp has presented.
Besides as I pointed out earlier, whilst there is a high level of Internet take up in the prosperous parts of the US and North-West Europe...that is by no means a world wide phenomenon...IL2 sold widely in Eastern Europe, Russia and elsewhere...regions with far less internet availability.

Billfish wrote
Yes absolutely! You have already made it plain that in your arrogance you believe that you can discount anyones opinion which differes from your own...Though quite why you believe your one, individual opinion should have any greater validity than any other individuals is something which completely escapes me...

Interestingly enough to compare these two posts...

So could you explain why the opinion of Offliners is worthless, yet offline mod users have to take responsibility for an online community which cannot trust itself to behave in a fair and mature fashion?

Surely its one or the other?

Please jasonbirder.... you don't know anything about the "online community" and even less about what is important to keep it strong... all your posts only show your ignorance about this.
Now about "offliners"... thei're not responsible for anything, and will not be for anything regarding online community.
Qtim tools do exist and are available to everybody. Nobody can change that, and so nobody will. Every "modder" that want ot escape quality control and perform "free modding" can do it, and use Qtim tools for this. This is not going to change.

That set... why are you concerned about "Onliners concern" (that can be adressed only by M:1C, in a form of a "CRT:3" check option) ?.... take a deep breath, think 5mn about it and tell me in what it is a problem for you?

If you really take the time to think about it, you'll see that most of this discussion is totally useless, that none of your concern is threated, and that it would be much more adequate to stop talking about what you don't know, and especially stop spitting on the "online community" with scorning argument like "which cannot trust itself to behave in a fair and mature fashion", etc....
I assure you it doesn't have any other effect than fuelling a flamming discussion.

I don't know one onliner who ever wanted such a thing. We constantly complain about it.

If I remember, Oleg said he did that BECAUSE of the onliners, fear that some would Kamakaze attack and become point hoes. That the beta tester's complained. Before PF, your weapons had full function even after the virtual pilot was killed.


DerAlte

Now this is really funny, there's one thing people need to accept, offline or online the game is the same there is no "them" and "us", we all "live together" like in a big building.
So you want mods to improve your offline expirience and you do not care how I feel about it because it's all about you isn't it, I am NOT important? Fine.
Let's say we are neighbors(like in a big building ;)) and I want to take a dump on your doorstep to improve my dump taking expirience, I guess it's normal for you to open the door and offer me a drink and/or a newspaper so I enjoy myself taking a dump on your doorstep, it's all about me anyway, you are NOT important ;)
Quite honestly I find the suprise of modding members when they get trashed by non-modding ones insanely funny, what did you expect? Drink and newspapers? :D

Now brain, that has to be one of the most silly examples I have read in a while. If you dump on my doorstep, you can be sure you will be eating it up. :D

It really started that the online people said, as you say, it's all about me (online) and not you (offline), so your statement is valid for both sides. The non-dumping part I mean :D.

DerAlte

Well I tend to use silly examples, it's my trademark :D

Well I don't know about that, I got this game (il2 original) in 2003 and stayed in this since then, I was on 56k for a loooong time, all that time I was strictly offline. I do not remember where exactly did "onliners" dump on "offliners" doorstep. All this time all and any changes to the game were done by Oleg and his crew, there was only "we" - the customers and "them" - the developers. We as customers were for the most part completely passive in regards to changing the game. Now suddenly part of us went active, as in, they made an action. Taking a dump is an action, it requires active state, having your doorstep dumped at is a passive state ;)

Strangely .... I have this sudden urge to go to the bathroom ......

I first saw the harrasment of Oleg's Offline play and some Online play customers when I joined the ubi.com on 15 April 2003 -- the era of RayBanJockey. This was during the Trim Wars after Oleg crippled his sim's trim controls to prevent slider trim bat turn exploits in anonymous public server gameplay. The Offline and many Online players asked for an option to use faster responding trim. There were a good number of hostile anonymous public server players running around the ubi forums accusing everybody who asked for this option of "wanting to cheat online with sliders."

Today's Mod Match started out much the same way -- recall the Mod panic started out with a number of anonymous public server players running around the ubizoo forums accusing modders of, naturally, cheating. There are differences, for example a number of Offline players concerned about the legality and morality of using tools that we assume were never authorized by Oleg.

One funny thing -- through stunningly effective forum satire, RayBanJockey made these hostile anonymous public server players look panicked and angry the likes we have never seen again until today. If there is one thing that makes an anti-mod anonymous public server player more panicked and angry than a server room full of mods, it would be...RayBanJockey. :coolsmileyface.rbj:

I saw that too. If thats the mentality of modder's, it really makes me wonder if they are after a more realistic/historical sim or just a plain arcade version of what they think is right despite what anyone or any document says.

I agree as well.

I've flown online from the start, full switch servers only however, and I've only heard how much everyone hates that particular feature. I'd like to see the thread where multiple people asked to have this.

They will take this and twist it, no matter how true it is. Good show! Please don't poop on my doorstep. lol

I know that guy and his brother. If you bothered to read between the lines, it was his jab at the rabid anti-mod crowd, hoping they would jump on it (like you did :D) and maybe cause a few heart attacks. If you noticed the caps at certain places, you would see the sarcasm in it.

With some of the posts from the "anti-mod" crowd, I wonder about the mentality of them.

I think it is about time to lock all these threads and have no more. The Zoo keepers were right to forbid such threads.

DerAlte

I saw that too, and its kinda funny -- no less so than BillFish's Classic a few pages back suggesting that the customers who paid for the sim don't have any valid opinions.

When Oleg poasted the news possibly opening BoB And Beyond to modding for Offline play and mod friendly servers, we were told that Oleg's plan would kill the next sim. So, even Oleg Maddox was indirectly accused of..."wanting to kill the (next) sim."

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...archmellow.gif

Nope -- I was wrong.

I *think* BillFish referred to Offline players who are modding up, which is probably a minority of Offline players as of now.

Get your quotes correct.......My statement was quite clear, that being "offline players opinions as to "online play" are invalid".......More so, there is nothing anyone can do to affect an offline players enjoyment of the sim....However, any and all changes, mods, hedges, hacks, & cheats affect online players greatly as it is crucial that online play be balanced and fair. Can it be made better, you bet. Can it be made rediculously intollerable....Absolutly.

In this case however with the good has already come significant bad....and it's only getting worse.

So for offliners to be trying to dictate that which only affects others.....That's frankly wrong and says much for the spirit of "community" they have. So no, as to online play their opinions do not count.

Doesn't mean they can't state them, doesn't mean they're wrong or right.....Just quite simply it does not affect them only onliners.

Or is this concept too difficult to grasp?......I'm betting you get it ;)

Got it! Offline players have no opinion on, and Offline modders present no danger to, anonymous public server gameplay. Offline players can enjoy modding up by themselves.

There is a growing number of Online players modding up, so your stake as an anonymous public server player is to keep Online modders out of the open public servers you play in. How do we accomplish this?

In the long term, Oleg's possible "formula" for BoB And Beyond covers the following two options...

Oleg's Forumula:
(1) Modding for Offline play and Online open-mod servers.
(2) No Modding for Online no-mod servers.

For now, in this sim (FB/PF), we can't do this very well, at least without work on the part of server admins to find and eliminate public cheaters. If Oleg can close the hole in 4.09, and it remains unhacked, while Offline and Online players wishing to use modded 4.08 (or maybe 4.09beta ??), then we might get the 2 options above in the last stages of this sim.


BillFish:: It affects not only others but the Offline players themselves because its a largely shared sim (not quite -- for example, no Respawn for Offline players). A too deeply shared sim needs to be somehow "split" so that customer options or modding don't present the ability to exploit them in the anonymous public servers that choose not to allow these customer options or modding.

oops -- a third, and most functional, possibility...

The mythological CRT=3, as some call it.

Assuming this appears in 4.09, all customers can fully mod a final 4.09, but no Online modders can join CRT=3 servers.

Is this Correct Thinking?

Yes Lexx
Many are all hoping for a CRT=3 on the 409 server side.
There are several problems now with CRT=2

#A It doesnt prevent all types of possible cheats or mods.
#B If you host a server with CRT=2 people with some other versions of windows can not join. (Language/Keyboard also causes an issue)
For CRT=3 to be really good...both A and B need to be addressed.

With a good CRT=3 -The modders can be happy with servers running CRT=0 and the the purist might get what they want in a CRT=3

Doesn't matter. lol Either way it fits and was funny. Don't rain on my parade dude! :)

HansBlixz:: Aussom! Thanks.

Geez, listen to yourself! All this 'dictatin' going on.

I have seen on-liners get hysterical about prop pitch and trim control. Everybody got their trim nerfed just so some on liners wouldn't get their panties in a bunch. Prop pitch now only works on CSP planes. Yeah, only on liners can have their enjoyment of the game affected.

Whether you like it or not, mods to the sim may very well be popular with a wide range of players, including off liners. Your position that modding only affects online play is nonsense.

It affects everybody, and what you see as bad some will see as good. To label their opinions irrelevant is, as I said before, arrogant. You're only seeing your little patch of the game and your little problems.

cheers,
Ratsack

RatSack:: We have a HUGE problem if the sim is too deeply shared between Offline and various forms of Online play. Back round Patch 3.xy, there was a surprising ubi.com episode where Oleg super-modded the Corsair so Online Dogfight players could fly Corsairs off motionless static carriers (no moving carriers in Dogfight gameplay). A short but sharp flame war erupted between Coop and Dogfight players, with the Coop players begging Oleg for the option of a normally modeled Corsair -- but it didn't happen. That all may have been "fixed" since then, as I've not played this sim since 4.04. I stood on the Coop side on this issue, and would have been happy if both sides could use an option for this.

Same with the trim, as Offline and many Online players wanted correctly working trim in the "full real" flight model mode, and having it as an option would have benefited all, as I could understand the reason for anonymous public panties getting seriously bunched up over slider trim exploits. :grin:

I don't minimise the problem at all. For my part, as I said earlier, I wish the sim had never been cracked. However, I take exception to the high handedness of some posters saying that other players have no valid opinion.

I wish there were some toggle function between a 'fixed' online model and a moddable offline play. A moddable area of the sim might have provided an outlet for some of the more enthusiastic rivet counters and 'my little pony is porked' players. It might have done so without threatening the precious purity of the online dogfighters. (Purity of essence, anybody?)

It wasn't done, and we're where we are. I don't see the sky falling, however. There may be those who cheat. Well phuck 'em, I say. If you see one, ban them. In the meantime, I'd rather play against adults. It's not the end of the world if it is now possible for somebody to cheat. It's not great, but hey, don't play with cheaters.

cheers,
Ratsack

CRT=3 isn't happening.......

MG having made great efforts to protect the sim this long, busy with other efforts now to pay rent, JUSTIFIABLY has no reason to do more........Everything from 3.X (once betty was added) a gift paid for or not by us.

The situation now not caused by MG/1C/Ubi or even the true cheaters (as they'll cheat no matter what).....The situation like it or not now caused for onliners by self proclaimed offliners is left wide open.

Sure, the non-modders can make this outrageous effort to thwart any non official alteration of the sim.....Trouble is that means the modders as already proven will make efforts to overcome it. More so the cheaters educated by the mods will look for a way to sneak them through their work minimalized by the work of the modders.

So now the modders here claim........Your problem, though we created it and will only make it worse, we don't have to deal with it (as we all fly offline)....So too bad, so sad, zucks to be you.

Do you have any question as to why, so many take this as a point to fight?

Frankly, all here can claim anonymity, yet reputations get made in such small communities that last till the common bonds though shifting are all gone. That means once none of us are flying flight sims any longer.

Is "I care about anyone except myself" the reputation you want?

I go back to what I've said since post 1 on any forum as to this issue.......Modders broke it, they need to fix it....That's how you'll regain any credibility as far as a community member goes. Don't care?...Don't have a stake in it the extent of community for you simply yakking on the forums?.....Well, that says a lot as well.

K2

Ratsack:: I'm there. If the shared sim is restricted by artificial limitations that prevent cheating in anonymous public servers, the Offline players and other types of Online players are hurt.

Assuming I understand BillFish's recent poasting last page, I can see that Offline players have no opinion on Online play, and they don't want any opinion! This does not contradict the above statement, as the Offline players may have, and have had in the past, core opinions on the restrictions that hurt them in Offline play -- crippled trim for example.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. mmmm

Ratsack -- an example -- recall the Corsair that Oleg super-modded to take off from static carriers in Online Dogfight servers. Above I described the bickering between Coop and Dogfight players, but Offline players had an opinion on this since they will be using the same Corsair in Offline play. In my case, I didn't want the new super-modded Corsair in my Offline play, so I added my opinion which happened to match the Coop players' opinion. There may have been Offline players who wanted to use static carriers in their missioneering, and so may have wanted the super-modded Corsair, but I don't recall any.

Thing is it ain't happening, and no amount of complaining changes that one bit. What we'd need is a 3rd-(trusted)party anti-hack application if Oleg and his guys are not beefing up the original CRT.

Come on folks, CRT never worked properly... forget CRT.. something new and much more simple needed. If Olegs crew will not find time to patch this hole (They already done more then enough to extend life of the series far and beyond), will have to look inside the community for people that are capable for creating file checker. I actually have few people in mind that might be capable of doing this... will just wait till final release and take it from there. Stop fighting already, nothing will change... tools is out there, people are getting a hang of it and no argument on this forum will change it. Concentrate on solution, because we already have a problem that has gone lose. No?

+1

Sounds great Ivan. Keep us posted, willya, if progress is made w/ that checker OK?

PS. Would look into this myself if I had the time, having been in SW development for years in a former life... but, alas, I don't think I can swing it because I've got plenty of things on my plate as it is ATM!

The perfect solution.

I bet alot of you have flown on server's with other players who use the Mod and you did not know it. That is a fact. Unless you fly on a closed password protected server. All this mod does is improve (IMO) some aspects of the game. I understand Billfish's example about mirror's (historical correct), clean gunsights (historical correct), clean canopy's (show me one pilot that would fly with a dirty canopy!) and the like. In her opinion, that is a "cheat". I like alot of others say that the track IR option is a "built in" cheat. A "cheat" is using something for a unfair advantage. For me that is a track IR. If everyone had it, it would not be a "unfair advantage". There IS a difference between using one and not on a closed pit server. Ask anyone who upgraded to one. But that is the opinion of a few. I know, I know, Bearcat.....apples and oranges! :D

I just got a new joystick for X-mas, a simple Saitek EVO (tm), and it is 1000% better than my 7 year old Sidewinder (tm). I have been getting more kill's now online than before. Flying much smoother (and I am a terrible fighter pilot), that some who have flown with me before are screaming "CHEATER, YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PILOT, YOU SHOT ME DOWN, YOU MUST BE CHEATING !!!!" Untill I tell them I finally got off my lazy butt and got a new stick. Then it is "OK, I GOT A NEW ONE TOO.....LOL". Is that a "unfair advantage" ? Matter of opinion, I say.

"Cheating", unless it is clearly proven, by definition, can be just a matter of opinion. What I see is, servers that embrace the Mod openly, are well populated. Some servers who "Damn" the mod (not all,the WW arcade ones are always full), are usely sparce populated. It is just like the so-called "Full Real" servers. Tons of them on Hypnolobby, but rarely visited.

There maybe no clear answer to the self-made schizm now. Both sides are "RIGHT" in their minds. I think ther servers should state from the beginning, MOD or NON-MOD. This BS, "if you use the Mod on our server we will ban you and tell everyone" is for the birds. Tell them simply to please leave, and please STATE IT BEFORE SO THE PEOPLE KNOW !!!!!


DerAlte

Yes, may be it solution. But among you, i see only guys who want much speak and don't want make something. You flooding already 96 page (i hope it will be 100 before New Year are coming) and what? only flood, flood and flood again. No one don't try make something.

You really don't know much about online play.
Between 25% and 30% of Hypperlobby attendance plays AW (Airforce War, an online coop war, nothing to do with dogfights servers), which is "Full Switch". When AW is up, I can easilly count around 200/300 players playing it.
And the good "Full Switch" dogfight servers like "Spit vs 109","Zeke vs Wildcats", and some others have a good success.

Other than that, +1 with crazyivan.

This is the very core of the problem and why those of us who fly online are so upset. It is not the obvious 600mph P11 I'm worried about. It's plane x with say 25mph more speed at mid altitudes, and say 200kg less weight, something that would never be obviously seen, that is the real problem.

Although I am still troubled by the fact that some people I once thought of as honorable have shown themselves not to be so, but that has no effect on the game itself.

I hope that Oleg, or one of us can come up with a way to keep online secure for one more year till SOW comes on to the scene. After that '46 will be gathering dust on my hard drive.

We’ve come full circle. In 2003 a program was written for CFS2 by HA_13 (aka Ziggy) called Fairskies. Its purpose was to keep mods and cheaters out of servers that wanted a clean, fair (original files only) dogfight.

I collected information from many players and provided feedback to Ziggy on how many of the cheats where done. As the different versions of Fairskies came out I would show Ziggy the remaining holes that needed to be plugged. This was after the first Gulf War and jokingly people were calling me “Hans Blix the weapons inspector for CFS2” (The real Hans Blix was the UN weapons inspector trying to find WMD in Iraq). As a result and joke my callsign was changed to HanzBlixz.

At first Fairskies put a huge dent in the cheating that was going on in servers that required Fairskies. Flyers who were dumb enough to join a server and try their FM mods to see of they could get away with it were caught. Many of the cheaters stopped joining the servers that they played on in fear of being caught. Flyers that were dominating dogfights suddenly went from heros to zeros and started flying bombers in no shooting allowed games. Even more changed their callsigns or haven’t been seen since.

Some eventually found ways to beat Fairskies and started sharing the hacks with friends. Many of us were also flying IL2 at the time. When we showed Ziggy all the ways that Fairskies was being beat and how IL2 was different, a decision was made to stop further work on Fairskies and move on to IL2. Fairskies did stop some cheating in CFS2, but as a side affect also launched a mass exodus of flyers from CFS2 to IL2.

Ziggy didn’t have an easy task at trying to develop Fairskies in a flight sim that was so open. I remember him saying that MS would not help him in anyway, or answer any questions and that was a real hurdle for him.

If 409m server does not end up with a better anti-hack check then looking further into crazyivans suggestion may make sense. This depends on several things, including how far off Bob is from actually being released. Working with 1C or at least getting some answers to questions will be much easier than trying to get info out of MS and IL2 is already far more secure then CFS2 was.

If some of you do decide to write the a 3rd party protection program, have a place were everyone can report specifics and holes on how people can cheat. NOT in an open forum or to be shared with the public. Maybe with a specific contact at 1C, a dedicated 1C email address or something? The person or team that attempts to develop the anti cheat program can then review and compare the reports to see if they covered all the holes.

I have several friends that are members of the mod community that want to improve the sim and not abuse it. Some info and tracks I posted in this forum came from AAA members (and a former member) who don’t like the path that some of the modders are heading down. So, get the modders involved like Josse, MrJolly, Wasy and others to help with at least giving input. They have all declared how they are against using mods to cheat and they are aware that their mods are being abused to do just that. I think if you give them a chance they will help.

Happy New Year to all.

When it comes to it HB, i am sure we will need to involve as many capable people as we can.

Best thing iv heard so far.

":)"

Sorry to burst your bubble,but I fly almost every night for at least 1 hour online. I have yet to fly AW, but might give it a try. And Spit V 109 is one of the reasons I stay from such servers (not because of the so-called full real), I like a change a pace with the planeset, and servers with stats always draw in the (it's all about me)point hoes. I have no time for that crap. Just really look at the "Full Real" servers, and see how many are empty. Because 2 or 3 are full, that is not the world.

DerAlte

And having many "full switch" server empty doesn't mean "almost nobody plays full real" as you try to show.
Just take a a paper and a pencil, and make some easy math: what I can see almost each night is around 300 players playing AW + around 100 playing "full switch" DF, thats 400 on around 900, so between 40% and 50% of the hyperlobby players.
40% is what you call "sparce". I think we don't have the same definition for words.

I'm guessing you haven't been on HL, ever. lol The fullswitch servers are the ones that are full. Zeke's vs Wildcats, Spits vs 109's, Warclouds. Also, the only time a windshield is clean is just before the engine starts. I flew all day today with a crapload of junk on my windshield. Bugs, grass, dirt, ect. Windshields are never clean. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Thats the problem too, people making some of the mods are making them with the their own idea and really not much more info or research instead of a team with someone in charge that knows and has standards to follow..........there's some dots for everyone :)

OK, OK..................................... Wutever Dood. You bees right, as usual.

DerAlte

He is :)

Well first of all, as ex-military I know one of the last things done before take-off was to wipe the canopy clean one last time.

Remind me to NEVER fly with you........:D

DerAlte

Edit: And who says the "World according to Oleg" is right? That I always wondered.

You should reread my post then. lol I said, "is clean just before you start the engine" meaning it gets dirty, soon after, doesn't stay clean. Thanks again for reading thoroughly. :)

I just wanted to say I LOVE the sound mod. I have no interest in any of the other things that are possible because of its creation(I do understand the implications tho) I have been flying Il-2 on and off for 3-4 yrs now and this has totally rejuvenated the game for me.
Now I am 95% co-op and have been flying with the same bunch for years so I guess for me anything other than the sound mod has no interest to me either way. Do I think there needs to be some sort of solution to the "other"mods available(there are many others that interest me but I wont touch any of them, heck even the AI flyables dont interest me) Of course I do. I respect the Dogfighter's opinions, it IS an issue that needs to be dealt with. But I wont be trodden down by the "powers that be" because someone brought something "harmless" to this sim that rejuvenates it for me and many others(again I get that the box is open and theres alot more in it than just this). If I am a "cheater" because I love the new sounds so be it. Call me what you will but its a much needed breath of fresh air for this sim even more so then new maps or planes. I love the sounds and the people I fly with love it as much as I do but the interest in any other modding for me ends right there.

I would love it if the boys from AAA could some up with a "Standard" that could be accepted by all.

Thats my contribution to the 100 page goal.

Greets!

Been around a long time and just now discovered the sound mod and others. I certainly didn't read every post here but a lot of them. I agree with Ivan, find a solution and LOCK the online games down solid.

That said, if some effort was made at an earlier time to address some of the "fluff" that adds to immersion this may have not become such a large scale problem.

Finally, I flew WarBirds in the mid-90's and Aces High on and off. I was here for the IL2 Beta. I have played golf online, raced everything, and played plenty of the FPS stuff. If you all think this SIM wasn't hacked a long time ago you're noobs! Look at the rts.dll and the NoCD .exe's. Turn up the oxygen a notch or two and think about it! Mod or No-Mod Have fun your way.

Remember...Believe little of what you hear, half of what you read, and NOTHING online, it simply ain't REAL! You'll sleep better at night and never get angry with your FUN.

Check "6" and Happy New Year S~

Man of Many Names

Well I don't mod anything, because I'm stuck at 4.04, and don't even play that, although I would ~love~ to modup this sim if I hadn't found another sim to get deep into.

If I did already have 1946, I would have personal reservations about modding up with tools that were -- I assume -- originally hacked without Oleg's approval.

But, I have NO interest in upgrading and playing Oleg's sim again, unless I were to mod it up, because the new modding offers enough potential features to bring me back to WW2 Eastern Front simming.

As Alan Greenspan might say, I'm having an irrational connumdrum. I like to think that if Oleg somehow "approved" the hack-originated modding, I would happily buy 1946(**). I'm kinda rationalizing that maybe this late in the sim, if no fix comes with 4.09, then Oleg doesn't really mind, but that sounds a bit too self-convenient. :rolleyes:

(**)

That is actually great news. IMO it would be fantastic if this tool whatever it was could concentrate on screening FM/DM/Weps and other things that could be used to cheat changes seperately from other changes.. and leave the option open for some of the other things. I have not tried any of the mods at this point but to be totally honest and fair, some of them do sound good, heck the sound mod sounds good (no pun intended) along with the default skins mod for static aircraft. I think it would be a shame and only increase the rift between in the community if all the mods were carte blance rendered un useable by this tool... but that sounds like a great idea and is the first real glimmer of hope I have heard since this whole thing started.

Exactly Bearcat. There are some wonderful things being done in the name of improvement and have no ill intent. I held off as long as I could on the sound mod but I have used it and now I dont think I could bring myself to go back to the old sounds.Sound has always been a big priority in anything for me. Guess its the musician in me.
Heck my mate and I just sat on the runway revving our Spit Vc's just to listen to each other. Flew formation for miles and miles just hitting F3 to hear them both whip past together and thats just the Spit! I mean when I first fired up the P-40 I said "Hey thats an Allison!, guys did P-40s have Allisons? I only knew that sound from growing up in an area where Tractor Pulling was popular and so was the Allison as an engine.
They have put alot of effort into this and it doesnt deserve to be just quashed because others do have ill intent.

I hope some sort of "Booster Pack" that has genuine improvements to the sim that the entire community can agree on can happen as there are so many GOOD things that are becoming available that I would hate to see them overshadowed by the bad things.

I think FM/DM/WM should be left alone. Thats something nobody should have access too. But putting a fresh coat of paint on the old crate should be embraced.

I really thought that I would stay out of this, because "There are none so blind as he who doesn't want to see".

Firstly DerAlte, I am guessing that you are a pilot of the jet age. Big difference between having a jet engine behind you and having a poorly serviced oily piston engine right in front of your windscreen with a bloody great fan blowing all that crap straight back at you.

The point I actually have though is that although the mods were initially done with the best of intentions, there will always be people wanting to abuse the situation. That is why if the corner store owner leaves his key in the door for the honest employee to start next morning; Most people walking past would ignore it or try to act responsibly by removing the key and returning it to the owner believing that it may have been an accident. The sad truth is that there are those in our community that would take advantage of the unlocked door for their own benifit. This does not insinuate that all the others are bad or have bad intentions, but hey, if the hat fits, wear it. You know if you are doing the right thing or not and regardless of how much better it makes your honest life to have that key in the door. You know that one day/night, some low life will rob the store and start to ruin things for everyone, including yourself. Sad but true.

I would dearly love the sound mod as I think that it was always a weak spot in a fantastic sim and I accept that it was done with the best of intentions. But I also know that it WILL get abused by some miserable idiot, so I choose not to open Pandora's box myself.

For those that put foward the argument that it is just scare tactics and paranoia to state that some idiot WILL if not already having done so (the second being my personal belief),abuse the mod/hack/whatever you want to call it. I say to you - That I see your paranoia and raise you a substancial dose of ignorance for the belief that someone out there will not take advantage of the situation for their own personal gain.

Some say that ignorance is bliss though. Time I retired for the evening.

Oh! and one final thing. I don't believe that anyone said that the world according to Oleg was right. However! he probably has a better idea on things than most other people here. Oleg is not just some nerd that made a game one day. Try a bit of research.

I have researched alot of WW2 aviation. This game is the best (at the moment) for WW2 aircraft. It just has way too many "missing" items to make it a sim, so it stays as a game. Oleg is right about alot of things, but very, very wrong about others. We can start at loadouts and go from there. It seems to me that most people in todays age take what they see on TV, games, and in the internet as face value (Wikipedia anyone?).
As UF_Josse said, a little reading here or there will open your eyes.

BTW, I have flown in WW2 fighters and bombers, a Bud of mine was a member of the CAF untill the PC crowd whined so they changed the name. I have a fews hours in a T-6 Texan (front seat).

But I see know that no matter what is said, or how it is said, if you do not follow what the "Great Leader" says.......you bees wrong. Another forum that has turned into a Zoo.

BTW, I think that most of the computer programmers "think" they are right when they make their games too.

How many hours do you have flying?? Have you flown in a REAL WW2 aircraft? Thought not. :D

DerAlte

I am leitmotiv of Ubi forum. I was advised by a good friend the 6 DOF mod was perfected, and that I should try it. I had taken 46 off my HD because it bored me to tears. After all the sound and fury over the mods, I was doubly sick of it. I tried the sound mod before I zapped 46, and I enjoyed the Bf 110C, and that was about it. I was not able to get the first version of the 6 DOF mod to work, so that was that. Yesterday I reinstalled 46, reinstalled the sound mod, and installed the 6 DOF mod---this time it worked perfectly.

Let me say this to those who are dead set against the mods. You would have to be literally insane to not use the 6 DOF mod. 6 DOF is not a luxury for a combat flight sim, it is not a gimmick, it is not fun---it is absolutely essential. The standard sight emulation system in IL-2 is archaic and completely artificial. With 6 DOF, IL-2 is nearly state-of-the-art. Without 6 DOF your situational awareness is massively reduced. Without 6 DOF your relationship to your gunsight is artificial. Without it all the beautiful modeling of the effects of telescopic sights is wasted. With 6 DOF, you literally bend over and zoom right into the telescopic view through the tube. You can't imagine it until you have done it. If you do not have the latest TrackIR, and if you have never used a 6 DOF flight sim like FSX, BOBII, or MAW, you will have no idea what you are missing. Your visual activity in the sim is completely natural. My favorite IL-2 airplane has always been the I-16. I always rankled at the completely unrealistic blocked view aft. I hated having to fishtail constantly to check six. I was always handling it in a completely gamed, artificial manner. With 6 DOF it is another airplane. All of the airplanes are completely new. Your relationship to each one is now different. You are not operating it using a mechanical, unrealistic sighting procedure. Fly the He 111 or Ju 88. Your experience is completely different. By the way, I think 6 DOF works better in IL-2 than it does in FSX, BOBII, or MAW---go figure that. Now IL-2 is my favorite flight sim again.

Recall we were "authoritatively" told 6 DOF was impossible for IL-2.

I have a theory. I suspect Oleg saw that the online community wanted IL-2 frozen. He is working on BOBSOW which intends to answer the needs of both offliners and onliners. I suspect he wants to see just how inventive the IL-2 people could be---after all, he intends to let outsiders use their models in BOB offline. So he let the frustration with the sedentary design build until the boiling point, and voila!---the mods. Now we see an unprecedented explosion of creativity and ingenuity. The reactionaries are screaming their heads off. Before the mods IL-2 was heading for oblivion. Now it will live for years even after BOB. Before 6 DOF IL-2 was a clumsy toy. With 6 DOF it is a combat flight sim. Live with it.

So, DerAlte has more experience then Oleg Maddox and his team pertaining to WWII aircraft, aircombat, aviation and all associated issues huh?....Naturally forgetting that his research team has also been the entire community as Oleg has always been more then happy to consider properly documented findings (not just gut) and implement them if "reasonably" possible considering time and the sim itself naturally also having to balance play.

On the other hand I've taken numerous rides in more types of automobiles then most here, yet that oddly has not made me an expert in automotive engineering/history/statistics and so on......Go figure *shrugs*


No, you were told it could not be done correctly and to the quality standards Maddox Games had set which it cannot....In kind wherein using a mouse, keyboard views, hat, or TIR, the possible views a player can have are exactly the same....With 6DOF that balance between players equipment is lost. So those using that mod having a distinct and unfair advantage over non users in online play.

K2

IL-2 was designed to be the most realistic combat flight sim possible, not to be a balanced toy for onliners.

To a point.....and how realistic are your 6dof views in all planes considering the cockpit graphics? As much as we ALL want it realistic, there is a point where lines must be drawn considering the limitations of it being "virtual" and often based upon the hardware and software available. As to the above issue it was made quite clear that to make 6dof "realistic" would entail reworking every cockpit in the sim, that's old news. In kind, being that the sim was "designed" with not just single players in mind yet MMP, that requires that balance be maintained in certain regards.

Not aircraft, weapons, and so on.....Yet aspects of "play" as I can assure you if I was able to have a 20% greater field of view then you in a head to head competition in the same aircraft you would state quite clearly...."Unfair, that's cheating".

K2

(See I can cut and paste too :) )

I agree with you here Billfish. I have TrackIR and wouldnt fly without it but for the reasons you stated I wont use the 6dof. Tho leitmotiv does make a compelling argument to try it, it does sound nice. But I dont want to see all the holes in the cockpits thats would just ruin the immersion factor right there. I love the sound mod and will continue to use it as it greatly improves immersion factor and thats what important to me.

Alas, there are no holes. Who has been spreading that rumor? I have yet to see a hole. If I see one, I'll report it. I would not use the mod if it was crude. I am a horrible snob, and I hate crude work. I have used the He 111, Do 335, I-16, I-153, Ki-27, A6M3, Ju 88, Bf 109G-6A/S, Fw 190A-5, Bf 110, P-38J, that I can recall, and the only flub was a floating small cowling bump on the 109 in certain very narrow angles---big deal.

P.S. And, we all know the official reason for not providing 6 DOF was always that the cockpits were not designed for 6 DOF. There were never any statements about preserving online balance---this is pure invention, BF. Anyway, because of the vast disparities in simming gear and experience there will never be a level playing field.

use or not to sue...sure, hacking the IL2 code wanst a good idea. But personally i use the sound mod. Why? well...i waited so long for new sounds, epsecially for .50 cal and some engines...i hed to try it. And when installed...WOW...i must admit they did an incredible job. Im not here to promote this or that thing; many times the comunity asked for better sounds, more realistic sounds and never had them. Im not telling that Oleg or his team is wrong: they had their motivation for not implementing new sounds. But as i said i watied for this too long to dont try them. And now IL2 for me is simply reborn. Incredibly more immersive than before. ..But ok...on the other side there is the cheating problem in the online comunity. So, from a presonal point of view, in terms of "gameplay pleasure" i must admit that this mod is great: it add that thing a waited for so long.
Yes cheating in online session can "destroy" a game: but sometimes im little bit suprised how this sound mod could destabilize an entire comunity: ok its not a good thing hacking the game. But it was a question of time. And now its a while that the mod is there....so...why can we just past over now?...yes yes i can immagine your answere...but im a little bit bored to se people "insult" each other because one "support" and the other not...at this point only Oleg can fix the problem in future patch...and if he will not...try to live with and look farther.

My first post here...

It's crazy, but if this 6DoF was a feature of the recent beta patch, everyone would be singing to the heavens about how wonderful it is. How fair and just and timely an addition.

Flight simmers are such a weird bunch. Always screaming for more, but always frightened of something new and terrified of change. The salvation of the whole Il-2 series is here, and they won't touch it because it doesn't have a designer label.

The new viewing system works. It's FoV has been refined to stop any of the inconsistencies that were apparent in earlier versions. It works. Isn't that what you are supposed to want from a flight simulator? A better experience. Not, as Leitmotiv says - a balanced toy for onliners.

For myself, I've given up on the whole online thing. It's grindingly repetitive and has nothing to recommend it anymore. Now I have a choice of online play and the tedious late-war planesets and shallow objectives. Or a purely offline experience. With every aircraft there to be rediscovered all over again. And more third party maps and enhancements than I have seen in years.

It's a pretty easy choice to make. ;)

Completely concur with Dr. F_IV's diagnosis.

In the interest of full disclosure, I ran through a tremendous number of airplanes looking for egregious flaws caused by the 6 DOF mod. First, an observation. We, alas, do not get fully capable 6 DOF with the mod because we are not able to lean our heads out of the canopy. You can lean out of your canopy in BOBII, for example, but those models were designed from the start for 6 DOF. Now, compared to the early essays in 6 DOF we saw in FS9 in which cockpits not designed for 6 DOF were crudely adapted, the IL-2 46 6 DOF mod is superb. The 46 job is not crude. Are there inevitably glitches? Yes. They always occur when you are extremely close to your gunsight when you are looking along your cowling. Some aircraft were not given a contiguous cowling right up to the windscreen, thus, in extreme close up, some exhibit small gaps. Compared to the monster holes we used to see in FS9, they are nothing. I found this in the LaGGs, Las, the Hellcats, and very slightly in the MiG-3 (this list is not intended to be definitive). Where I expected to see gaps, like in the huge snouts of Spitfires and Corsairs, or in the complex glazing of the Pe-2/3, He 111, and Ju 88, there were none. I consider this to be fantastic. You will feel like you have never been in these bombers before after flying them with 6 DOF---you are no longer imprisoned by the framework of their complex glazing, you can look around the frames. Flying is so much easier, and so much more natural when you are not banging from one range view to another like a reflex camera. Some things need to be refined. It is very hard to get your head low enough to see properly through the Pe-2/3's gunsight. You almost can't get your head far enough to the right to properly use the 262's sight.

But, the rear view in the P-40E is suddenly spectacular. Same for the P-39s. Dive bombing in the D3A1 is so much easier. Unfortunately, the SBD was designed so that you have to use the bombsight view to look through the tele sight so it derives no benefit from 6 DOF, a pity.

Anyway, if somebody has been spreading rumors of gross deformities due to the 6 DOF, it is a blatant untruth, and more hysteria from the fanatics. The truth of the matter is that the 6 DOF mod is a brilliant achievement.

You make a great argument. I suppose I will end up testing it too.

You should reread my post then. lol I said, "is clean just before you start the engine" meaning it gets dirty, soon after, doesn't stay clean. Thanks again for reading thoroughly. :)

Reposted since you missed it.

Wellcome to The Yellow Wallpaper Feathered-4

There should still be some crap plane servers out there with early Fiats, wooden Polikarpovs, Gladiators, etc.... Find them if you have not already.

Latch onto a Online play mod-friendly community, or some modded or un-modded Online War community, if you've never tried that before.

Mod or No Mod, maybe get yourself invited into a private server or squad.

Hint: If somewhere you don't see any of the following four gamer behaviors...

(1) Team Killing
(2) Kill Stealing
(3) Snotty chat behavior
(4) Renegade wingpersons abandoning teamwork

...then you will never see mod cheating there.

X (leitmotive) ... test I-16 for 6DOF?

See the tail wheel beneath the aircraft, while strapped in? I was surprised to see this.

Team killing is a valid tactic... It is how it was done IRL when the situation called for it.

So why are you hanging out at the soundmod site Bearcat:confused:
http://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/v...r=asc&start=15

You installed it yet? You like it?:oops:

And stop acting like the moderator here.:!:

Thanks Bear, what is this real life team killing situation? Some WW2 kill stealing happened, but either not always, or very seldom, with hostile intent, for example, confusion in a mass furball, one pilot not seeing another, but at other times, done with greed perhaps.

X -- aha, I found this in another thread...

Xleit:: More please!

Yes he is, and making quite RATIONAL posts and suggestions if you must know. It probably wouldn't hurt YOU and a few others to do the same. At least read about what they are ACTUALLY doing, rather than relying on your, or other other's paranoid ravings.

"Acting like a MODERATOR here"? I don't see that. I see him voicing his opinion. Anything wrong with that, or is YOUR opinion the only one that counts?

Oh pffft!! Go pi$$ on an electric fence why don't you.


I will hang out where I want to.. It is really none of your business. I don't like to shoot from the lip without any facts so I frequent those boards often... thats how I can say all the things that I have said in this thread with conviction. Each and every statement. I would rather go there and see what is going on myself than get it from hearsay. As I have said several times in multiple threads across multiple forums, and I am not one to hide under a pseudonym like some sneak thief skulking around in the dark either, some of those mods DO sound pretty nice. To deny that is to be just plain blind, however as I have also said many many times I have not DLd any of them yet, for reasons already stated, so I don't know how they are. You need to read the entire thread before you pop in here and latch on to a post of mine earlier in the thread. Everyone in here and at UBI who has been following this whole thing knows that I have visited that site and do so fairly regularly. I have even suggested mods for them. No big deal..... Read all 99 pages of this thread before you decide to shoot off at the mouth.

Well actually I have not "Flown a REAL WW2 aircraft", only been a passenger and I suppose that that does not count to a legend like yourself. I have also clocked up many hours with a mate when young while he got his pilots licence. I just didn't have the money to do mine. My apologies for being such an unworthy peasant.

I also never said that Oleg is always right, but I haven't yet seen one of the mods develop their own game engine and produce a complete sim/game from scratch. Oleg has to draw lines in the sand at certain points and even that doesn't make him always correct, so get off the worshipping Oleg crapp!

I generally remain quiet in these forums and for good reason. It's blowhards like yourself that think that blurting out that you "Flew a REAL WW2 aircraft" (oh wow please stop so I can bow at your feet oh great massiah", that think that you know more than the people that spent thousands of hours trying to please every whining son of a goat that expects that they know more. BLOW IT OUT YOUR ARSE MATE!

I am not against mods and would dearly love to see how much this IL2 has left in it. But that does not validate hacking into code to achieve it, now matter how talented and well meaning the mods are.

I shall bid you good night now.

Ha Ha!

For someone that doesn't post much, I just cracked the 100 on this redicoulous thread.

Not that it's worth anything LOL.

Good night all.

If the I-16 model had native 6 DOF design, this might be possible. Since the IL-2 46 I-16 can't be given the "lean out of cockpit capability" of native 6 DOF models, we have to be content with superior rear view---which, thankfully, converts the I-16 into a "Mosca" from a trussed turkey with no rear view. I, for one, would love to see what the view would be like from a native 6 DOF I-16. It may be the bushwhack-proof fighter.

strewth:: Good one! http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y-ylflower.gif



---

Thanks Xleit. I-16 is my second fave in the sim, behind MiG-3.

Why the name change? It might take some time for us to become well adjusted to this. :grin:

Yeah 100 pages. Happy New Year folks!!!

+1 Just so I can say I was here when this thread clocked the ton. :rolleyes:

Well, I guess you told me didn't you!!! :D

Anyway, Happy New Year to you!

BTW, clown, I have a degree in Military History, do you? Or Oleg Maddox? Again.......thought not! :D


DerAlte

errr. and that is important because of....???

Regarding these things I would trust an aviation engineer rather than an historian any day LOL

clown... makes me giggle :)

happy new year to u too :P

If you insist. :D

DerAlte

P.S. As he is a aviation engineer, I wonder why there are so many planes are inaccurate? Starting with loadouts, to CG when fuel tanks are emptied. Maybe he should have asked a historian about the planes, then the Corsair I would be in the game as a F4U-1. The Corsair I was used as a training plane, never seen combat under the FAA flag. Don't get me wrong, at this point in time this series is the best on the market. He really needs to be more carefull with the next series. It takes more than a engineer to make a accurate and fun aviation sim.

It amazes me how people constantly forget a few things when discussing stuff like this about this sim.

1-This sim is built on an engine that is what.... 10 years old? If I am not mistaken I believe this engine started out as a space sim....

2-This engine in it's current form is 7 years old..

3-There are over 200 flyable aircraft in this sim of various sizes & specs, each one flies a bit different.

4-I challenge any of you to find a better WWII combat sim on thre market.. or one that models FMs better than this one. Warts and all.. there isn't one. I tried the 1% planes from CFS, when I could get that POS to work on my PC with my FFB joystick... and IMO it is not close.

Personally although there are issues with this sim I would still rather see the FMs either totally locked or decided by one source... rather than a hodgepodge of diffeeing FMs for differing planes based on what people think is right. But hey.. thats me.