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Metathron
08-23-2009, 07:29 PM
I am perplexed at how some folks manage to do this battle with no losses. In all my previous games (normal or hard) I usually suffered heavy losses, but this time around, I just had all my troops killed with some rather huge enemy stacks left.

My army consisted of elves, evil beholders, sprites, dryads and ancient treants. I cast the ice spirit's shards at the beginning to stall enemy walkers, so my shooters could shoot. Well, for the couple of rounds I was able to shoot, they didn't do much damage. I'm thinking shooters are not a good choice for this battle. Better get some sturdy walkers/flyers, maybe griffins. Any recommendations?

My sprites/dryads had fear cast on them for most of the battle. An outstanding moment was when my sprites helped the enemy destroy the barriers between us. :rolleyes:

I also cast fire rain several times, but against such large numbers, it's more like fire drizzle. :rolleyes:

I also remember someone mentioning a strategy with emerald dragons and invisibility, but I can't seem to find it, and I don't know how it goes. I'd be willing to try it, just to avoid getting slaughtered by this ridiculously enormous army.

Metathron
08-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Next, I tried with a completely different, expendable army:

Ancient bears
Unicorns
Black Unicorns
Priests
Griffins

Halfway through I thought this would work, when the computer started pulling stunts such as raising 71 necromancers, his 1000 skeleton warrior stack killing my (remaining) 80 ancient bears in one hit, etc.

This is just so much fun. :rolleyes:

Edit: Oh yes, I had the druid's staff that increases animals' attack by 50%. A lot of good that did.

Vilk
08-23-2009, 10:39 PM
Nobody can win this battle with no loss. No loss just mean no loss after resurrections.

Your battles descriptions are funny, even more when they remind me the misfortune I could face in this battle. :) That is just normal stuff for this battle. The key points are:

Manage Necro call restoring enemies stack. Those can come from the crystal if the stack was a Karador stack. Or the two Necromancers will do necro call on any stack.
Manage Karador spells, particularely fear and hypnotize when possible.
Manage long range attacks, from Necromancers and big Skel-Archer stack.
Manage close range and very strong stacks, typically, Black Knight and even Skeleton or Undead Spider.
Manage the barriers.


There are various way to manage this fight but the key point is the first, you need have a way to manage enemy necro call. There are different tools to do it:

Using Ice Thorn is an excellent way, but not have it ready when you want is a danger and sometimes they could be attacked and then free the dead stack.
Moving on a dead stack seems a bit basic but can be useful in many cases.
Using Thorns so they could use dead stacks to summon thorn. For that, Dryads or Royal Thorn can do the job. This is complex to use in practice but can work very well.
Use yourself Necromancers so they can cast Necro call.
Cast Necro call yourself. Because it uses mana and make you use your spell in the round, it's more the last choice but can be very handy.
And the last but no the least tool against enemy necro call is just to avoid kill enemy stacks but attempt only to reduce them a lot until you get a good position to end the stack and avoid necro call.


The last tip is certainly a key to make the fight more easy. But Necro call is only one problem. Another disturbing problem is managing fear and hypnotize from Karador. There are various tricks against that:

Use units immune to mind spells.
Have a unit immune to mind spell have the initiative right before other non immune units. This will allow you cast dispel before you feared/hypnotized units move.
Avoid units skip their turn this won't let Karador cast a spell on them before end of turn.
Have your unit with the highest initiative be a unit immune to mind spells.
Use summoned thorns, at some point they often take Karador busy to cast slow on them at almost each round.


Strong close range units can also kill your fight if they come in contact too soon. Again there are various tricks like:

Ice Thorns, very efficient.
Using summon you can summon a lot like thorns from Dryad or Royal Thorn.
Cast slow.
Few traps can be handy.
Use a fast flying unit like dragon to attract them elsewhere, that's not so easy to apply but that can be very efficient.
Use wall.
Avoid destroying the initial door walls.


Karador long range are your first hard point to manage. Here few tricks that could make it less ugly:

Use blind, but take care that last only 2 rounds.
Use target and close contact a necromancer stack. This stack will just do the standard attack and the second stack will hurt all enemy close. Take care that if your target is too exposed it won't last long enough even with a high protection. The best is certainly use this with a fast flying unit like dragon.
Attacking the long range asap is your first concern, so take care have some efficient long range like Inquisitor or even Priest. Cannoners should also work well. And summoned thorns can give a handy help.


For a green dragon stack alone that's always the same tactic, I never used this so don't know he details but overall, use its mana source talent for restoring mana, use spells to destroy enemy, use invisibility to avoid attacks, use time back to restore your stack.

Last point, that's a lot of word but only a part of tricks on how to manage better this fight.

Metathron
08-25-2009, 10:27 AM
I know most of those things, but putting them into practice all at once is another thing.

I gave up on this game, Karador is just too frustrating on impossible.

Unless you'd like to win it for me, Vilk. ;)

BB Shockwave
09-23-2009, 12:48 PM
I did this battle with no losses easily (I did try earlier though and got PWNed when I was not high level enough...)

Key point is Karador here, not his units. His spells, especially Hypnotize and his damaging spells (Ice Snakes) can do a helluva lot of damage to you.

There is an easy way to solve this. Right away from first round, try to concentrate on killing a single stack ASAP. His few Bone Dragons are ideal for this. If Karador has a dead stack, and he will always act first thanks to his Necromancers, he will ALWAYS use Necro Call to raise them. Good thing? Yes, because the raised stack won't attack that round. You can re-kill it and Karador will raise that stack next round too... Ensuring he never casts troublesome spells (and he has a boatload of mana to do that for a looong time).

Just ensure that actually dangerous stacks (Death Knights, Skelly Archers) stay dead, IE have someone stand on them, or, way better, put a Totem on them with your Shamans.

Also: do not use archers in this battle. Most of Karadors troops have resistance to many forms of ranged attacks (Bone Dragons and Skeletons only take 1/3 damage from ANY ranged attack, Necromancers are resistant to Magic ranged attacks, Death Knights have 30% physical resistance).

My troops used for this battle were: Royal Snakes (augmented with snake Ring they can take out even undead easily), Griffins (aka your punching bags, use them to hold back all melee units), Black Dragons (no comment needed), Shamans (for unit healing/magic damage and defense/offense/dead stack pinning with totems). I normally use Evil Beholders for the 5th stack, but they are useless against undead, so I switched to Black Unicorns, very potent against undead.

Also one useful tip. Use Ice Crystals in the first round. This gives you time before Karador's melee troops close in - you only need to deal with the Bone dragons (I usually let the spiders in 'cause they are easy to kill). The Necromancers will cast plague and magic lock in the first rounds, so you don't have to worry. And Death Knights for some reason LOVE to attack the Ice Shards - it brings their damage to the max fast, I guess, but this meant for me that it was about Round 5 by the time I had to deal with them.

Also - blind the Skeleton archers first round. They represent the most danger.

After you killed all of Karador's troop, it's easy, but tedious resurrection time. Simply stand away from a corpse (spiders are preferred), let the crystal resurrect it, then use "Rage Taking" on it. From the accumulated Rage, use Lina's chargers! Slow, but works. I finished with no losses.

iregev
09-24-2009, 10:38 AM
no Inquistors ?

BB Shockwave
09-24-2009, 01:38 PM
no Inquistors ?

The Skeleton Archers, and even the Bone Dragons LOVE picking on them, and they die easily.

Plus, calculate: Dragons and Skellies only take 1/3 damage from ranged attacks (and that only if they are in full range). Even inquisitor's 200% damage means 2/3 of the normal damage... Not worth it. Heavy melee is much more usefull for this battle.

Oh and... use the Silver Sword if you have it. In some games you can find a recipe in the Marhsan Swamp graves, if you take it to the Mage School in Verlon Forest, they can make it for you. No attack bonus, but +30% damage agains Undead is pretty good. I also used anti-undead items like the paladin Shield and the Silver Cord that give additional defense against Undead - they still hit hard, but it helps.

Razorflame
09-26-2009, 02:19 PM
wouldn't it be easier to use

royal thorns/thorn warriors/thorn hunters/dryads/necromancers?

first turn kill something

raise dead with necro and keep spawning those warriors/hunters ^^

use sacrifice on the summoned units to reraise the rest of your units ^^

BB Shockwave
09-28-2009, 03:26 PM
wouldn't it be easier to use

royal thorns/thorn warriors/thorn hunters/dryads/necromancers?

first turn kill something

raise dead with necro and keep spawning those warriors/hunters ^^

use sacrifice on the summoned units to reraise the rest of your units ^^

Umm, Dryads would be useless for this battle, they cannot put undead to sleep (and that's their greatest asset).

Thorns are frankly, very weak units. I doubt they would stand against Black Knights for long. You need tough melee units for that. Plus plants cannot be resurrected in any way, that's why I never use them - hard to prevent losses.

One more thing to keep in mind - apart from the necros (who'll be busy casting spells anyway) and the negligible bone dragons, all of Karador's units do physical damage only. So it might be a good idea to stack up on physical resistance-items, or use Stone skin or God Armor.

Razorflame
09-29-2009, 10:56 AM
true indeed;-)

but wouldn't it be better to use demons instead of griffins?(assuming u want to have to always retaliation ability for a tank)

an black dragons are also hard to keep alive(unless u got time back ready they die rather easy) and can't use spells on them


i would do it with emerald ones

their mana drain ability can be very helpful ^^

BB Shockwave
09-29-2009, 11:31 AM
true indeed;-)

but wouldn't it be better to use demons instead of griffins?(assuming u want to have to always retaliation ability for a tank)

an black dragons are also hard to keep alive(unless u got time back ready they die rather easy) and can't use spells on them


i would do it with emerald ones

their mana drain ability can be very helpful ^^

Yeah, Demons are good too of course. I just had the Griffiin Banner so I could recruit more of them, plus I didn't like using Demons with my Paladin... :)

I prefer Blacks because of the magic immunity - magic-damage creatures do almost nil damage to them, their very high Physical resistance (can be increased with items), their ability to decrease enemy intiative, and the fire damage/wake of fire is very usefull in this battle, as all the below-3 level undead units have -10% res to Fire.

For a Mage, I can imagine Greens are the better choice.

Razorflame
09-29-2009, 12:33 PM
true indeed;)

well for a warrior that fight is easy with max rage before u enter that fight and boom boom karador :P

Arilian
10-05-2009, 10:26 AM
Finally i made it to Karadot at impossible Difficulty.

I am lvl 18 Mage, about 10-11k Leadeship, and have access to almost all kind of units due sacrifise and some low level pack with ranged units i left behind. I dont have time back (only lvl 1). I can case 2 spell in the first 2 round and have about 100 mana for it with some good desctruction and utility spells. (order and chaos lvl 2, distortion lvl 3)
From the tips hire, i do not have necro call and i do not have royal thorns.


So far it seems i am too weak for this battle. I have avoided almost all elf and undead pack as they are from strong to impossible.

I know i am low level i have also skipped dwarwen and demon pack behind and even some pirate ones. Do i really need to kill all these? (I dont like killing elves :))

On what level did you finished with this battle?
Do you think i will NEED time back lvl 5 for this?
I am thinking using Knights with Circle attack talent+Teleport, but i have only access to a few knight so i need to sactifise a good stack for it. (And spend points to circle attack) Have anyone tried it?
Should i be able to get Dryads and Royal thorns withough doing any quest in the elven lands? I did not find any.

Thanks for all your help.

Arilian
10-07-2009, 09:16 AM
I went back at lvl 20, 13000Leadership and i still feel too weak.

What level did you win this battle? (On impossible)

bucazaurus
10-07-2009, 11:42 AM
I killed Karador last night with an level 16 warrior on impposible ,with no losses using inquisitors,horsemans,knights and emerald green dragons.I think i won simply because i got lucky with his army composition.Hes number of necromancers and skeleton archers was lower then usual. 40 necro and 800+ skeli. Also the items i found along the road had helped .Even so the battle last for over 145 turns.The longest battle i ever did ,since i start playing KB.

iregev
10-07-2009, 02:16 PM
impressive

Arilian
10-07-2009, 03:07 PM
Indeed. I guess you used Mana spring a lot but what else?

On the green dragons with Stoneskin and Divine armor I can do 97% Physical resistance (with the +15%boots), but ca'nt keep up target, manaspring this two spell and heal. Not because of mana issues but after i cannot cast 2 spell in a round it is impossible.

I think I will also use knights after all.

bucazaurus
10-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Boxed up the Inquisitors. Crippled the biggest stacks.Kill them one by one and necro call them.When only the Crystal remained all my stacks was left with only few troops except the Inquisitors .They stayed almost intact .Then the long process of regaining Rage and resurrect ,using the Inquisitors ,started.That was the key. Protecting the Inquisitors at all cost.Without them there is no way to win this without losses.

Arilian
10-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Unfortunately at lvl 21 i still do not have necro call :(

I took in the kignts to the battle with circle attack but unfortunately the 55% phisical resistance(unbuffed) is quite useless against the bone dragons/leeches

I am really stuck in this fight ATM, i will level to 22 for some more leadership and maybe try gigants too.

loreangelicus
10-16-2009, 01:57 AM
...i will level to 22 for some more leadership...

Correct, nothing makes any fight easier than leveling up and gaining more leadership.

I took down Karador at a leadership of 19,000; that high leadership helped me more than any other factor like tactics, unit composition, and spells:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=10498

Razorflame
10-16-2009, 10:46 AM
leadership hardly matters;-)

the good unit composition is ESSENTIAL also the spells u use;-)

and abuse karador himself:D

BB Shockwave
10-16-2009, 11:00 AM
I tried killing Karador just to see whether he has Ancient Vampires for sale after the fight (I looked everywhere in Death Land, Demonis and none are avaliable...:( ) - if his death knights hadn"t completely killed my cursed ghosts (thus stopping me from resurrecting them), I could have done the fight without losses. Ah well. (and no ancient vampires too...)

Anyone knows a good place to get Ancient Vampires? Maybe Xeona or Bhaal sells them after you beat them? I even looked in crypts and graves...

Razorflame
10-16-2009, 11:10 AM
try coffins ;-)

or u might be lucky at murock;-) ^^

bucazaurus
10-16-2009, 12:17 PM
There is a necromancer house in the dwarf land. Usually you can find Ancient Vampire there.

Kings Bounty Hunter
10-16-2009, 03:43 PM
I just did this and it would have taken me at least an hour to resurrect my units and I just couldn't be bothered having already spent 20 turns tbh :-)

Gave up on the no losses campaign ages ages so thought why bother :)

loreangelicus
10-16-2009, 03:45 PM
leadership hardly matters;-)

the good unit composition is ESSENTIAL also the spells u use;-)

and abuse karador himself:D

I never said unit composition, spells and rage are not important. What I am just pointing out is that a leadership increase via levelling up would give the biggest boon in making a battle easier (which is what the OP was trying to do).

Case in point, below is my post wherein I took down the 3 Ultrax dragons battles in Demonis, all of them in 24 turns or less, no casualties:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=10567

The reason why I don't spend so many turns resurrecting is because my unit stacks are large enough to kill the enemy before it could do more damage.

Sure, spells and unit composition are very important. But could anyone in this forum give the BEST team composition? A lot would give their opinions, but unit composition is always subject to debate.

Even spells are subject to debate, even on impossible, some people going for offense while some going for defense, and I saw this happening for a discussion using a single class: mage.

But as for leadership? The only debate on leadership is on what amount should you take it when it is given as a level-up choice. The OP planned to take it when he leveled-up to 22, which is on the level range wherein you should definitely take leadership over any other stat gain.

Even if you go with the "much vaunted" single unit/rage drain/chargers/damaging rage-spell tactic, surely you would want to take in more leadership, if only to trim down the number of turns to finish the battle.

Razorflame
10-16-2009, 04:02 PM
single unit can kill karador ;-) and rage and spells do matter

especially for a warrior having the advantage of high starting rage and high damage rage abilities is a boon

whereas for a mage i think i took down karador on level 19 with shaman/necro/inqi/demoness i believe the battle was very easy keep killing bone dragons untill karador hasn't got any more mana to do something else then just mass kill the rest

fire rain+ the amulet that gives +15% damage to fire spells makes this fight a laughter;-)

given i had an intellect of 40 and most things died with my triple dual cast :D

BB Shockwave
10-16-2009, 06:21 PM
There is a necromancer house in the dwarf land. Usually you can find Ancient Vampire there.

Tried it, he sells simple vampires. :( I even did the Evil Book quest but Karmac or whatever also only sells regulars... :(

And I heard people found Vampires sold in Bat form - never seen that happen in both of my games...

single unit can kill karador ;-) and rage and spells do matter

especially for a warrior having the advantage of high starting rage and high damage rage abilities is a boon

whereas for a mage i think i took down karador on level 19 with shaman/necro/inqi/demoness i believe the battle was very easy keep killing bone dragons untill karador hasn't got any more mana to do something else then just mass kill the rest

fire rain+ the amulet that gives +15% damage to fire spells makes this fight a laughter;-)

given i had an intellect of 40 and most things died with my triple dual cast :D

HUh? How on earth did you get a 40 Intellect on that level? I'm 19 or 20 too, as a Mage, but during Level-Up the game hardly let me take Intellect. I have the Archmage Staff, Dead Skull, Royal Snake Ring boosting my intellect to 26-28, but that's all. Even with Level 3. Fire rain with Prismatic Helm and the Hellfire Amulet, Karador's 70-or-so Death Knights and 380 Zombies own the field. They do horrible damage. Me, on the other hand, had trouble taking down his measly 50 Ancient Vampires, due to the bastard's ability to evade criticals.

In comparison, the Evil Book battle was over in 3 turns without lossess...

bucazaurus
10-16-2009, 07:43 PM
Good combo for mages against Karador. Will require Higher Magic skill (preferable maxed) and one stack of green dragons. They will have first move at the start of each turn , even the Necromancers have the same initiative, because they outrank the Necromancers in level.

First turn : Glot Armor + (first spell) Armageddon / (Second spell) Invisibility.

Second turn: Wait then use Chargers. Karador's troops will go defend mode.Collect all chargers if possible, mana balls having priority, and use Green Dragon's ability to Gain Mana.

Note - Invisibility lvl 1 only last 2 rounds but this rounds are considered the rounds made by the stack you cast the spell upon and not the game rounds,so if you don't Wait and use your action points the Invisibility will vanish.

Third turn:Invisibility + Rage Draining

Forth turn :Use a damage spell scroll on the strongest stack if possible otherwise just let the turn to pass.

Fifth Round : Repeat from the first turn.

Razorflame
10-17-2009, 05:12 PM
Tried it, he sells simple vampires. :( I even did the Evil Book quest but Karmac or whatever also only sells regulars... :(

And I heard people found Vampires sold in Bat form - never seen that happen in both of my games...



HUh? How on earth did you get a 40 Intellect on that level? I'm 19 or 20 too, as a Mage, but during Level-Up the game hardly let me take Intellect. I have the Archmage Staff, Dead Skull, Royal Snake Ring boosting my intellect to 26-28, but that's all. Even with Level 3. Fire rain with Prismatic Helm and the Hellfire Amulet, Karador's 70-or-so Death Knights and 380 Zombies own the field. They do horrible damage. Me, on the other hand, had trouble taking down his measly 50 Ancient Vampires, due to the bastard's ability to evade criticals.

In comparison, the Evil Book battle was over in 3 turns without lossess...

gues i was just lucky with the random intellect boosters throughout the game

my attack was like 3 or something:P

now that was horrible ^^

i had feanora as wife as well and dead skull, archmage staff, ancient amulet, also had the intellect clas ring2 which i had used), old skull gained from karrakh

those already gave me 23 intellect ^^ think i also used the healers jacket

the rest i gotten random at level up and shrines of knowledge

but an attack of 3 is a pain in the ass believe me your units hardly damaging something ;"(

BB Shockwave
10-19-2009, 11:27 AM
My attack is around 12 or so. But having maxed Dark Commander my undead units get +7 more. :)

Yeah I could have picked up the orc shaman skull but choose to defeat him (was not selling good units/spells) and my army was not strong enough for a no-losses battle.

I also had the intellect ring, absorbed it. Guess you got intellec boosters while I got attack boosters... :P

Arilian
10-19-2009, 11:54 PM
I have finally managed to kill him too :) but with a warrior after all, and i have used two kind of fairies, dryads, inq, ang greend dragons.
fairies do insane amount of damage with whip+poison dagger, i have seen 50k+ krits at lvl 23. (not in this battle as Karador have some defence) The whole main battle was not lasted 10 turns. With some time back and resurrect it became a no casuality victory.

The only spells i have used are bless+resurrect+fire damage to weapons.

Warriors seems to me more powerful than a mage really.

Razorflame
10-20-2009, 11:08 AM
ofcourse ;-)
a mage only got his spells his attack and defence are low so he can't get the same amount of damage from his units than warriors can do ;-)

Arilian
10-20-2009, 11:45 AM
ofcourse ;-)
a mage only got his spells his attack and defence are low so he can't get the same amount of damage from his units than warriors can do ;-)

Yes, but is should be compensated by either the spell utility or the spell damage. And also i have read opinions that teh 3 dual cast makes the mage the most powerful class. I disagree with this now.

Razorflame
10-20-2009, 07:00 PM
well think of this ;-)

warrior with black dragons/emerald green dragons/vampire(bat form)/bone dragon and any other fast melee unit

now combine this with level 3 onslaught and the undead commander

makes the warrior always go first to cast a spell and make the units attack the mage before he can do anything;)

so the mage won't even be able to cast such spells ^^

his army will be decimated before hand ^^

warrior>paladin>mage ^^


ofcourse u can say a mage can have that too but there are simply not enough runes for the mage to gather it all(unless u make abuse of my infinite money trick:P)

but all in all mage got lowest leadership

and an warrior stack doing +300% damage on a mage unit wel...

do the math
there have already posted critical above 10k damage (which is more than a single spell from a mage can do sometimes even more than 2 spells casted right after eachother

the only exception would be armageddon if i would do my math correctly

and furthermore this is HEAVILY BASED on the mage his intellect low intellect is bad mage

a mage needs to have at least 35 int> or higher otherwise he will be a wimp on impossible;)

BB Shockwave
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Well since we can't do Player vs. Player in KB, we will never know. ;) Even fighting against yourself in Kordar is not the same - your copy doesn't have skills you picked up or artifacts.

That said, a warrior can still be majorly hampered by a mage. Turning those fast melee units (Vampires) into sheep and then casting mass Battle Cry on his own units, the Mage could easily achieve to go first next round, starting off with a Geyser maybe... ;) Or Mass Dragon Slayer, to even the chances against so many dragons.

While using a Paladin did I find that mass spells are very, very usefull in battles where the enemy is of equal strenght to you (just like in HOMM3) - they can easily turn the tide of the battle. A warrior usually doesn't have enough mana or high level Magic skills to do that.

Btw, this is what I find unfair in KB-AP: even the most measly regular level 5-8 pirate and robber heroes have like 60 or 70 Mana, and they will cast spells like Phoenix or Evil Book every round. More annoyingly they prefer to use direct damage spells to curses or blessings, and although due to their low intellect this does little damage, the insane amount of poisoning and burning will make you dread spells like fire arrow and poison skull. I once lost my green dragon to a stack of 27 Swamp snakes (and other units), their poison did 100 damage every round... I hear the patch corrects this, hope the English version already comes with this.

Arilian
10-22-2009, 08:53 AM
"there have already posted critical above 10k damage (which is more than a single spell from a mage can do sometimes even more than 2 spells casted right after eachother"

Lake, faeries build and buffed well can crit low def creatures over 100k! at lvl 26.

Arilian
10-23-2009, 02:58 PM
I just won the game finally and found out that this battle is far the hardest in the whole game imho, Demons and Haas is a joke compared. I won the last battle at lvl 26 (impossible) in a few turn withouth any thinking, knights wiped out the dragons with ease. Daemon bosses were a bit more hard but still quite managable. Karador is not a trivial fight even if you overpower him a bit.

Metathron
11-06-2009, 04:13 PM
God I hate the fight with Karador.

Even on just the hard difficulty I'm finding the battle super frustrating. Perhaps at level 22 I jumped on it too soon, but I thought I could do a good job with an army of unicorns, black unicorns, griffins, ents and royal snakes. My paladin's stats were something like A16, D19, I21 plus I had the shield that gives you +25% defense against undead attacks and the vampire cloak thingy that decreases the enemy's attack by -30% during nighttime (and night it was). And still I ended up losing, the constant raising of the dead proved too much for my forces. :-x

Will give it another shot later, after I grab the +1200 leadership at level 24. But I was wondering if the above is a good army to tackle him, or if I should stick with the 3-girl + green dragons + royal snakes composition.

BB Shockwave
11-09-2009, 03:15 PM
God I hate the fight with Karador.

Even on just the hard difficulty I'm finding the battle super frustrating. Perhaps at level 22 I jumped on it too soon, but I thought I could do a good job with an army of unicorns, black unicorns, griffins, ents and royal snakes. My paladin's stats were something like A16, D19, I21 plus I had the shield that gives you +25% defense against undead attacks and the vampire cloak thingy that decreases the enemy's attack by -30% during nighttime (and night it was). And still I ended up losing, the constant raising of the dead proved too much for my forces. :-x

Will give it another shot later, after I grab the +1200 leadership at level 24. But I was wondering if the above is a good army to tackle him, or if I should stick with the 3-girl + green dragons + royal snakes composition.

As many said above - the key is preventing Karador from raising back huge amounts of troops. To reverse the saying "Only put down only what you can put down again!" I say, kill those Bone dragons every round. They are not a big deal to kill again (and they won't act in the round they are raised). But when you kill Necromancers, or death knights, be sure to destroy the corpse or plant something on it (Shamans are a must in this battle, or use Ice Shards). But it is important that you leave some dead troop (bone dragons) for Karador to raise. He has Raising on his priority list, if he cannot raise something, he will Hypnotize and do other nasty stuff... trust me you're better off with dealing those 4-5 Bone dragons.

Razorflame
11-09-2009, 04:31 PM
or be lame and use vampirebats+insivibility+poison cloud ^^

BB Shockwave
04-07-2010, 08:12 PM
Well, I just beat Karador on Hard, with a mage and an all - well, mostly all - undead army, without losses, by round 11.

(Of course, I was playing with a mod that gives me a spell "Animated dead" which lets your resurrect fallen undead, as the Necro Call spell should work in the first place, but that's barely cheating - it costs the same amount of mana as Resurrection, only it's Chaos magic).

See the screenshots - I was level 27, 12 Attack, 17 Defense, 32 Intellect, 172 Mana, 16015 Leadership. I used several items (Dead Skull, Archimage Staff, Mantle of the Wizard, Old Skull, Royal Snake Ring, Sorcery Picture to boost my mana, and the Silver Chain to protect my troops from undead. I had Chaos and Distortion maxed out (Order is quite useless for me as most of its spells do not work on undead, not even God Armour). My wife was, of course, Zombie Rina, and I had Dark Commander maxed.

My troops (see pictures):

-10 Green Dragons (normally I use Bone Dragons, but their poison attack is not great against undead. Plus the mana stealing really helps here).
-88 Necromancers (great ranged attack, enemy debuff and of course, for Necro Calling enemy troops)
-87 Ancient Vampires (in this battle, mostly tanking in regular form as life stealing doesn't work)
-105 Black Knights (my main tanks, very resilient and can deal good damage as well once they get into 'swing' thanks to Increasing Anger. Not to mention raising undead morale.)
-123 Cursed Ghosts (while they cannot use their ability here, the 50% physical resistance+silver chain makes them very durable in this battle)

Karador's troops:

-6 Bone Dragons
-102 Necromancers
-50 Ancient Vampires
-116 Black Knights
-92 Cursed Ghosts
-111 Ghosts
-474 Zombies
-654 Skeleton Warriors
-881 Skeleton Archers

(Little note - did you know Karador's Zombies and Black Knights have a speed of 3 instead of 2?)

I used a little trick - with the help of the Crown of Blackthorn - to drink from the fountain of rage next to the Book of Death in the Great Forest and then run all the way to Karador, thus starting with 46 Rage.

1. round - Two well-placed Fire Rains greatly decimated the ranks of Karador's troops in the middle, including both stacks of necromancers. I followed up with a Black Hole, killing off the Bone Dragons (that is important). My necros fired into the crowd, decimating the Skeleton Archers too. My cursed ghosts took out the front plank barrier, then waited... Predictably, Karador used his magic to raise the bone dragons again, then his ghosts took out the cursed cross. His Black Knights charged in, attacking my ghosts - and blocking the entry to my troops thankfully. I quickly ganged upon that troop, then had my dragons fly out behind them and use mana source to great effect (20 mana back) on the ghosts and knights.

2. round - One more fire rain to kill off more troops for Karador to raise, then I blinded the zombies - they should not be underestimated. I then used my dragons as bait and killed off his vampires, parking them in front of his right side necros. The ghosts took the bait, and my other units ganged up on the knights.

In the following rounds, Karador only cast Necro Call (I always left him some troops to raise) or for some reason, Slow, while the dragons and necros killed off his smaller troops, and I used Doom to quickly finish off his knights in one round. I then used Pygmy to kill off the zombies - raising his necros with mine to prevent more troop raising then needed. Of course, I had to use Lina's chargers once to re-fill my mana.

By round 9, all of Karador's troops were dead(er). I simply raised the too dangerous ones and parked my units on the rest. I used my mana to raise the few units I have lost (4 knights, around 30 ghosts, 1-2 vampires).Then my knights killed off the crystal in 2 rounds... goodbye Karador! :)

Frankly, I had a much easier time here then with my mixed-army Paladin. I think the fact that this battlefield is considered a cemetery, giving +1 morale to all my troops, also helped.

Fromage
05-02-2010, 05:52 AM
Well, I just beat him myself at 22 on hard...simply armageddoned over and over again untill he had no troops left and then rolled the ice ball all the way across the map into his stone.

...of course, nearly all o' m'troops died, but mission accomplished!

ludak021
09-27-2010, 02:59 PM
5 black dragons, ~90 black knights, zombie wife, +15% physical boots, some intellect items since I was a mage. I had no ice shards ability (I only use zarock's poison spit, glot's armor and rage drain and timeback, sometimes ice ball, I found all other abilities quite useless to a mage since they are too weak or expenssive rage wise).

it goes something like this:
1. round magich shackless on skele archers, stone skin BK's (enter battle with 20 rage at least), then just wait for bone dragons to fly in, attack them with BK's so to block entry with BK's. Do what you want with BD's as long you have timeback on maxto bring them back next round, you are probably going to use them to finnish those bone dragons so karador will cast necro call next round

2. round. timeback black dragons if you lost any, if not, and if you are full of mana, and you should be, demon portal on good place, block entrance further or place it where you will be blocking (standing on) some dead enemy stack later on (you should have demon portal spawning 3-5 lvl units and with 7000+ leadership by now) and phantom BK's (they become targeted in 99% of cases, thus saving your BK's (notice that with boots + stone skin BK's have 85% physical resistance, so enemy does zilch damage to them, 500dmg at best with his 100 BK's, witch you will now be hitting with your phantoms and then with your real BK's, reducing their number from 100 to preferably ~70 in one round :D )
use BDs carefully, try to park them near necros if it is safe, shower those ekleton archers in the process)

3. round. demon portal again, mana spring on phantom BK's (by now ghosts, BK's zombies etc. are all near them and will hit them, kill them all), your demons come from previous portal. use poison spit on enemy BK's to reduce their attack and give them nice 100dmg per turn next four turns, reduced attack is the key here), kill bone dragons ofc, this goes for every turn

4. turn. magic spring on demons from first portal, or wait for the new ones then magic spring them. (if you don't have stoneskin maxed out then you will have to stoneskin your BK's again!) Use rage abilities depending on situation you are in, you can timeback something again or cast ice ball to distract something/lure enemies away (if you cast it near crystal some stacks will move towards it, zombies and skeletons probably), your BD's are playing with skele archers and necros, it depends on their movement, but you should have killed them off by now (archers)

.... later rounds keep your BK's stoneskinned, use magicspring and demon portals (cast them on dead stacks), when you reduce enemy numbers enough, start casting broken armor, have your black dragons pick on the crystal, your BK's and demons picking off things arround the map, karador should be out of mana by now from resurecting dragons. If you placed magic springs well you should even have enough mana to "sheep" somthing anoying or cast more demon portals :D

You could go with demons stack instead of BK's (demons demons :D furious ones :D ) but you have to take care of ghosts and vamps as quickly as possible then, also stoneskin them asap and magic spring them, then divine armor them, then eventually teleport them in the crystal, keep them buffed up, timeback them, whatever, just keep their numbers high, use their pentagram (use gift to repeat), I found that only 50 of them in pentagram do cryticals like crazy (5000+ dmg for only 50 of them!) if you phantom them you can cast pentagram and more demons which stay after phantom is dead etc.

using lot's of units in these kind of battles is complicated. Less is more. it is easier to buff one stack than 4 stacks and you know what is going to be attacked, by whom etc. even you, in this case with karador, don't kill bone dragons, karador can't cast hypnotize on BD's or BK's. He can cast "doom", but I never saw him do it, perhaps he dosen't have maxed out doom?! (if however he does cast doom on BK's then I guess you have to dispel asap :P )

I had many problems in KB AP and in KB TL until I started tossing units, bringing only essential ones (later in the game ofc), for example, for suppressing items: demon portals and single BD stack and you are good, just be carefull, I bring green dragons (for invissibility tactics), demons, BD's and BK's. I have stashed ancient vamps and red dragons, so I usually go with two stacks on battlefield (one BD stack can win almost any battle, probabbly it can win every battle, but it is too slow and frustrating sometimes, I can't get my self to play 20+ turns every battle, brainstorming portals and traps to hide the dragons etc. but it is doable. I finnished that tournament in the castle as a level 15 mage, 3 BD's only against level 30 dragon (finnal battle), but I lost one dragon :/ demon portal level 3, trap level 2, magic spring lvl 2, stoneskin lvl2 (I cast magic spring and stoneskin on summons when facing all physicall units, saves me from casting another portal later and doing something else instead).

in KB AP single BK stack with mordor as companion and a shard + mask you are unstopable, just cast elvin to res BK's, and if you have 100+ BK's later on, they criticall 20.000+ dmg all the time (with mage! I can't imagine what they do with warrior class :D )

hope this helps :)

Metathron
09-27-2010, 05:54 PM
Well, I just beat him myself at 22 on hard...simply armageddoned over and over again untill he had no troops left and then rolled the ice ball all the way across the map into his stone.

...of course, nearly all o' m'troops died, but mission accomplished!

LOL! I like your style! :grin:

ludak021
09-29-2010, 02:45 PM
that's how I beat Haas in the end :D single BD stack, glots armor, 2x armagedon, next round 1x armagedon, timeback, finnish that one BD of his that was standing :D