Bomber Plane Gunners are like Snipers

[Mekushikurih]

i think that theres a problem with bomber gunners AI.

they start shooting beyond visual range...

their accuracy is incredible,

last day on an internet server a b29 gunner hit my N1K just 9 rounds..all of those rounds were on the engine covering area...not any other hit on the plane.

b-24's are likewise but samething does not goes with B-25's.

also i believe P-40's would be more durable to enemy fire (infact they were famous for their durability) but frequently 1 hit enough to take down the engine of P-40.

[KG26_Alpha]

Hi

.50 cals are reaching out @ 800m with AI bomber gunners.

To take out any bomber I recommend a head on pass first, then attack across the wings from port to starboard or vice versa.

Some bombers you can get underneath them and attack looking up through the top of your cockpit then pull up for a belly attack, but never get on the dead six of a bomber.

Back to the sniper effect >>

They can be deadly effective if in a Dog Fight server, for some reason the AI seem to be less confused and are more accurate than in a Coop mission, where they happily spray everywhere but where they are supposed to if piloted by a human at least.

If you are flying offline set the bombers AI level to rookie to give you a chance at getting nearer.

Use more effective tactics against the bombers.

[Igo kyu]

I have noticed that "bomber gunners" are over accurate in Il*2 single player since FB at least, and maybe since Sturmovik. It's not confined to the Il*2 series, the same problem applies to MS CFS.

It's probably sort of because the simulation has exact information on where you are, and what your speed and heading are. In life, bomber crews could see what the relative direction from them to a fighter was, but they probably couldn't tell within 5 or maybe ten degrees what it's heading was, they didn't know it's range for sure, and they couldn't tell how fast it was. All of that supposing they even spotted it. The sim has the options of passing acurrate postion data on other aircraft to the "bomber crew", or of passing them realistically obfuscated position data, but the obfucation would consume processor cycles that are needed for the rest of the sim. So, the "bomber crew" almost certainly has perfect data on the positions and movements of other aircraft. From there, making the "bomber crew" realistically inacurrate is a tricky proposition. They can be made to fire off target, which looks really really odd, or they can become super snipers.

In FB I once flew an offline mission in which I crashlanded but survived, so I could watch what happened, my squad took out the escorts which left six P40s against six Ju87s. The honours came out even, two P40s knocked down, two Ju87s knocked down. The Ju87s had two (rearward facing, which is where the P40s were attacking (of less than 8mm calibre)) guns per plane (for a total of 12 guns), the P40s had six (of greater than 12mm calibre) guns per plane (for a total of 36 guns). Even ignoring the difference in calibre, the P40s ought to have shot down three Jus for every plane they lost.

If bomber gunners had been that effective in the war, the luftwaffe would have sent over unescorted bombers in the BoB and won.

I really do hope this issue has been addressed in SoW.

[Mekushikurih]

well thanks for tactics :)

btw i usually fly in the Skies of Valor server.

but i wanted to point out an inconvenience of the game. despite the age of the game it must be adjustable somehow?

9 shots & 9 hits all to the engine and BV range!...isnt it unfair?

[Thunderbolt56]

No news here. These are common complaints.

Here are my gripes that will NEVER be resolved regarding AI gunners:

1. Gunners can see through clouds and mountains.

2. Gunners are completely unaffected by hard maneuvering and heavy G-forces.

3. Through the limited view area most gunners have, their accuracy is unusually high...unless I'm the pilot of the bomber. In which case they usually don't even see the enemy coming and get pk'd while looking the other way.

4. AI gunners seem to be able to extend their ammunition or make it last longer than when manned by a human.


These will NOT be fixed and only "may" be addressed to a degree in BoBSoW (at least the AI seeing through clouds and fog etc,..)

[yarbles]

If bomber gunners had been that effective in the war, the luftwaffe would have sent over unescorted bombers in the BoB and won.

I really do hope this issue has been addressed in SoW.

It will be an immersion killer for the offliners if it's not corrected especially those offline pilots concerned about survival. I've lost many a fine offline pilots from the magic bb. I totally deserve to get it if I'm flying straight and level on a bombers 6 but when I'm hammering down at 500 km/hr in a vertical dive and get a bb in the head from a cheek gunner that in real life would only see a blur, that's crazy.

[flyingbullseye]

No news here. These are common complaints.

Here are my gripes that will NEVER be resolved regarding AI gunners:

1. Gunners can see through clouds and mountains.

2. Gunners are completely unaffected by hard maneuvering and heavy G-forces.

3. Through the limited view area most gunners have, their accuracy is unusually high...unless I'm the pilot of the bomber. In which case they usually don't even see the enemy coming and get pk'd while looking the other way.

4. AI gunners seem to be able to extend their ammunition or make it last longer than when manned by a human.


These will NOT be fixed and only "may" be addressed to a degree in BoBSoW (at least the AI seeing through clouds and fog etc,..)


You forgot one. The AI gunners being able to shoot at impossible angles for their position. This is usually on dive bombers. If you have tried to come up on any dive bomber from below and behind they still can hit you dispite the fact that to do this they would have to hang the MG off the side of the bomber.

Flyingbullseye

[DKoor]

I have noticed that "bomber gunners" are over accurate in Il*2 single player since FB at least, and maybe since Sturmovik.
I remember one occasion I flew Bf-109G in original Sturmo and gunner in Su-2 put a 7,62mm bullet in my head from 800-900m:lol:.

[DKoor]

The AI gunners being able to shoot at impossible angles for their position. This is usually on dive bombers. If you have tried to come up on any dive bomber from below and behind they still can hit you dispite the fact that to do this they would have to hang the MG off the side of the bomber.

FlyingbullseyeI remember feeling really stupid when I approached one Ju-87 at very low speed from below at point blank range and thought I'm gonna riddle this one for sure... but at that point gunner happily riddled me,,,, haha it would be funny if it wasn't sad.:lol:

[Blackdog_kt]

The gunners are generally "funky". For example, if you try a QMB mission against some B17s you can see that half the gunners are shooting in the wrong direction and the other half will be sniping you.

According to what i've seen when testing ways to attack bombers, these are my observations. The gunners are super accurate, as long as they are already facing towards you when you are coming in. That's why the tail gunners are usually deadly. Coming in from the sides in slashing attacks with an early model FW190 (no Mk108s) you can wipe out four B17s with veteran or ace gunners. I have done it in a Fw190A3 that has the MGFF outboard cannons.

The trick is to fly in a manner that even when you fly straight, your course will be at such an angle to the bomber's course that will force the gunners to change their aim and do so rapidly. Coming in from his 4 o clock for example with a slight lead and firing you'll see that you rake his entire fuselage, passing from nose to tail as you exit the firing pass. From the gunner's point of view this looks like a fighter moving at 500kmh sideways from nose to tail.

The AI gunners have a problem turning their turrets fast enough and you can see it if you fly in a B17 (in a modded install), switch to the top turret position and watch how the gunner works when he's on autopilot.
On the other hand, they start firing whenever an enemy is at a certain distance according to their level (rookie, veteran or ace), no matter if they have the fighter in their gunsights or not. Try a QMB with sideways slashing attacks and watch the track afterwards. Suppose you're attacking from their 4 o'clock and exiting to their 8 o'clock. They start shooting and keep shooting where you were (their 4 oc) and can't really turn their guns around fast enough to keep tracking you. If you watch such a track you'll see loads of tracer fire going in the wrong direction.

I think this is done as a way to offset their accuracy when they do happen to have you in their general field of view. So in summary, they seem like they don't even know you're there until you close to a certain distance from them. I think they have a certain detection range and that detection range is the same as their reaction/open fire range. If you man the guns yourself, you'll know where the enemy comes from and turn the turret around well in advance. The AI on the other hand will suddenly react to enemy presence at 1.2km or so (depending on the AI level), even if you're visible from way out.

At that point, if they have their turret pointed the right way they can shoot at you and they are accurate. If they happen to have their guns turned somewhere else, you're pretty much in the clear as they won't be able to turn them around fast enough, even though they'll be shooting wildly in the air. Try sitting in a turret yourself and compare how fast you can track an incoming fighter in comparison to how slowly they AI moves.

I hope this will give you some hints on how to attack bombers. For example, in my favorite method i attack in sideways slashing attacks. I have even crossed the dead six of a B17 formation in an online server this way and survived while chopping off their rudders in low deflection passes because i was in a hurry to get them. The proper method involves much higher deflection and even less chance of getting hit.

That's all because of what i described above. When you make your first slashing attack some gunners will shoot at you and some will be turned the wrong way, but all of them will try to turn their guns on you. So, when you come around for the next pass from the opposite direction, their guns will be facing the way of your previous pass and they won't be able to turn them to you in time! :grin: