Pilot Training for BoB SoW.

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

I have recently read the following books written by BoB fighter pilots:

'First Flight' by Geoffrey Wellum.

'Life's too Short to Cry' by Tim Vigors.

And from the LW side 'Spitfire on my Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper.

The training process from novice to Fighter pilot was lengthy. Should this in some way be replicated in BoB SoW? If Bob SoW replicates fully the flight characteristics of a Spitfire or Me 109 it should not be possible to simply click and fly.

This may be offputting for the novice player but perhaps the option should be present to graduate through training?

Sorry if this has been discussed before and maybe this concept will be present anyway.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I remember when I first started up Battle of Britain:Wings of Victory and bumped up the setting to realistic and then crashed 4 or 5 times in a row trying to take off. That was with the plane already lined up on the runway. (and with years of other flight sim experience behind me!)

I would expect that sort of behaviour to be 'realistic' for an average mug like me jumping in a spitfire without training and expecting to get if off the ground.

With a completely new engine, in SOW, to get used to hopefullly the Tiger Moth would be used for British basic training and get us use to the new environment in a more forgiving plane.

Cheers!

[usagold2004]

It's hard to say what is realistic when i comes to this kind of topic. Should a brand new pilot without any training be able to take off and land on his first try? probably not. Should a pilot with a limited amount of training be able to transfer his experience to a new plane? easily.

the fact that wings of victory was more difficult to take off than IL2 does not necessarily mean that it is more realistic.

based on my flying experience, I would say IL2 is very realistic. The aerodynamic factors that you have to account for are all found in real life flying. For example, Taxiing most WW2 aircraft, you do not have a steerable tailwheel, so you must use differential braking to help you turn. This is found in IL2. On lining up with the runway, the tailwheel lock is a feature you use in WW2 aircraft to counter the torque from the engine and help you run straight down the runway. This is found in IL2. When you release brakes and begin take off roll, you have to counter the engine torque with rudder or else you will run off the side of the runway and destroy your plane. This is found in IL2. When you are almost ready to touch down before landing and you put 100% throttle, the airplane has a tendency to roll which can, at a slow enough speed, cause you to roll uncontrollably and crash. This is also found in IL2.

So I think that the difficulty in taking off in IL2 is very nice and realistic. Just because one sim is more difficult than another does not mean that it is more realistic than another. I think you would be surprised with the ease that a spitfire or 109 can be coaxed into the air, especially for a veteran flight simmer

[SlipBall]

Hi all,

If Bob SoW replicates fully the flight characteristics of a Spitfire or Me 109 it should not be possible to simply click and fly.

This may be offputting for the novice player but perhaps the option should be present to graduate through training?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.



I don't really understand your point here. If a pilot understands flight theory, controls and the like, then there should not be a problem. Flying is what it is, much the same as the use of any motorized vehicle...understanding and control being most important

[vanderstok]

Well I DO understand the point. It's not just about knowing what control does what, it's also about proper flight procedure: when to do what. Take-off/landing, circuits, radio procedure, how to recover from a stall, advanced aerobatics etc.
We can do most of that now in IL2, but most ppl don't know really. Just see what happens on the average dogfight server after a new map starts: everyone taking off from taxi-strips etc, criss cross over the field, several ppl will nose over or collide into someone else. I know this is in part because in IL2 there is usually only one runway, instead of a square field, where a whole squadron could take-off together. But imagine if everyone could follow basic training as a sort of offline campaign that would include the proper flight procedures, it would be great for immersion and things would be a bit more organised (hopefully!) online...

[C6_Krasno]

We can do most of that now in IL2, but most ppl don't know really. Just see what happens on the average dogfight server after a new map starts: everyone taking off from taxi-strips etc, criss cross over the field, several ppl will nose over or collide into someone else. I know this is in part because in IL2 there is usually only one runway, instead of a square field, where a whole squadron could take-off together. But imagine if everyone could follow basic training as a sort of offline campaign that would include the proper flight procedures, it would be great for immersion and things would be a bit more organised (hopefully!) online...Simmers don't need training to know that you should take-off using the runway... They know it, but they want immediate action and therefore don't respect easy and well knowned rules.

[SlipBall]

Well I DO understand the point. It's not just about knowing what control does what, it's also about proper flight procedure: when to do what. Take-off/landing, circuits, radio procedure, how to recover from a stall, advanced aerobatics etc.
We can do most of that now in IL2, but most ppl don't know really. Just see what happens on the average dogfight server after a new map starts: everyone taking off from taxi-strips etc, criss cross over the field, several ppl will nose over or collide into someone else. I know this is in part because in IL2 there is usually only one runway, instead of a square field, where a whole squadron could take-off together. But imagine if everyone could follow basic training as a sort of offline campaign that would include the proper flight procedures, it would be great for immersion and things would be a bit more organised (hopefully!) online...



I thought that the thread was about being able to handle and fly a spit or 109.

[ZaltysZ]

For example, Taxiing most WW2 aircraft, you do not have a steerable tailwheel, so you must use differential braking to help you turn. This is found in IL2.

No differential braking in IL2. Brakes are always applied to left and right wheel together. To steer on the ground one can only use rudder or differential torque of engines (only if aircraft has multiple engines).

P.S: speaking about realism, does anyone notice any adverse yaw effect in any aircraft in IL2? I don't. :)

[airmalik]

Hi all,

I have recently read the following books written by BoB fighter pilots:

'First Flight' by Geoffrey Wellum.

'Life's too Short to Cry' by Tim Vigors.

And from the LW side 'Spitfire on my Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper.

MB_Avro.

Which of these did you enjoy most? I read First Light a few years ago. Would like to read up some more before SoW arrives. Guess I've got a lot of time :)

[RedToo]

You can read an actual WWII book in installments here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7561023737

RedToo.

[SlipBall]

You can read an actual WWII book in installments here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7561023737

RedToo.


Good read, thanks!

[usagold2004]

No differential braking in IL2. Brakes are always applied to left and right wheel together. To steer on the ground one can only use rudder or differential torque of engines (only if aircraft has multiple engines).

P.S: speaking about realism, does anyone notice any adverse yaw effect in any aircraft in IL2? I don't. :)

Try this, at taxi speed and idle throttle, use full rudder one direction. Note the turn rate. Use full rudder with brakes, note the turn rate. There is a definite aid to turning by differential braking (even though you only push one button)

There is adverse yaw as well. I'm not sure if it is as pronounced as it is in real aircraft though. Keep in mind, that the shorter the wingspan and the higher the airspeed, the less you will experience adverse yaw. ie, a fighter is not a good aircraft to test for adverse yaw. Get and He-111, slow to 220kmh or so and fly a straight heading. Apply full aileron in one direction and do not use any rudder. your heading will initially (by 1 degree or so) go in the opposite direction that you rolled toward. this is due to adverse yaw (seemingly anyway, as i cannot vouch for their design intent)

IL2 is a very detailed game. the most detailed flight sim for aerodynamics that I have played which is why i like it so much.

[Bearcat]

Hi all,

I have recently read the following books written by BoB fighter pilots:

'First Flight' by Geoffrey Wellum.

'Life's too Short to Cry' by Tim Vigors.

And from the LW side 'Spitfire on my Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper.

The training process from novice to Fighter pilot was lengthy. Should this in some way be replicated in BoB SoW? If Bob SoW replicates fully the flight characteristics of a Spitfire or Me 109 it should not be possible to simply click and fly.

This may be offputting for the novice player but perhaps the option should be present to graduate through training?

Sorry if this has been discussed before and maybe this concept will be present anyway.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

I disagree.. I think that considering that many of the sim pilots who will be flying SoW have years of flying experience in other sims, some from several other sims..... I think that for them the transition will be easier than it was from say... MSCFS to IL2...or Warbirds/AH/FA to IL2.. I think only the pure novice sim pilot will have problems..... but even the most arcade sim can qualify as a trainer for a more complicated sim.. and like usagold said.... harder does not always mean more realistic..

[yarbles]

The training process from novice to Fighter pilot was lengthy. Should this in some way be replicated in BoB SoW?

I think it would be great for the offliners to have crafted some sort of abbreviated training campaign that midly replicates what you are talking about built into the game. The only constraint I would want is that it's not mandatory for starting a new pilot in campaign mode. Compared to the other work being done (ie nuts and bolts of the sim), crafting a short 15 or 20 mission training campaign should be a piece of cake. Heck, that's something that could easily be outsourced to some 3rd party source. I'm for it even though I know it's a one trick pony.

[leitmotiv]

If Oleg dumps the tamed FMs of IL-2, BOB will be hard. The A2A FSX 109E is a very difficult airplane to operate, far more difficult than the IL-2 E-4, as are the 109Fs, Gs, and Ks by Flight Replicas. Taking off in an Oleg airplane allows you to do a plethora of things which would kill you in a real airplane. Alas, as I understand, the FMs for BOB will be the same as the last version of IL-2---he is putting all his chips on detailed damage modeling and far better physical models of the airplanes. Oleg is a showman more than a simulator designer. He wants his users to be able to get in the air without too much trouble so they can appreciate the fireworks he has arranged.

[Robert]

I don't ever remember reading where Oleg said the 'newly incorporated FM's' of IL2 would be the definative version of BoB's FMs. I think I remember him stating that they would be the beginning point for BoB.

You're comparing an eight year old game that's had revisions to the FM about 4 years ago to today's flight sims AND their add ons. That's hardly a relevent and fair playing field for comparison.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, but finding out the reality betwixt the two will be fun.

[Skoshi Tiger]

<QUOTE>Taking off in an Oleg airplane allows you to do a plethora of things which would kill you in a real airplane. </QUOTE>

Luckily In real life we wouldn't have anyone silly enough to spin the inertial starter in our 109, or disconnect and move away the power cart (Accumulators????) if we were in the a Spitfire. I doubt we'ld actually get either of the planes moving.