ROF online shenanigan.

[Forgottenfighter]

Most of you have probably heard by now that Rise of Flight will only be playable online, there will be no offline mode. I thought it would be a good idea to vote, so we can see how many of us are for the idea, even though I think the answer is already obvious.

EDIT: There will be Single Player mode but it will require you to be online while playing.

[Rama]

The question is badly worded.

Many will think that there's no Single Play mode as well... and there's one, that requires an online connection at game start (and at game end to submit statistics).

Question should be:
Should ROF have a SP mode without online connection?

[Robert]

won't buy it.

[Forgottenfighter]

The question is badly worded.

Many will think that there's no Single Play mode as well... and there's one, that requires an online connection at game start (and at game end to submit statistics).

Question should be:
Should ROF have a SP mode without online connection?

The fact is, you will have to be connected while playing so that your stats can be recorded.

Here are two qoutes from an interview with the team:

Do I need an internet connection to play ROF?

Yes, because first of all we are talking about online service, where you can get together with many other people with same interests, where you can get in groups and play against other users or AI and many more.


Can I play ROF in offline mode?

No, you can't.

[C6_Krasno]

Yes, BUT some people will think that no offline mode = no single player mode ; and there will be a single player mode. That's the point Rama raised, I believe.

[SlipBall]

I think that they are making a grave mistake on this...I believe they will loose 50 to 70% of the sale's that they could of had...I'm out!...and a really dumb idea they have, that will bother me forever. :confused:

[Igo kyu]

I'm not interested now.

[Forgottenfighter]

I'm really not trying to knock the team or anything, the idea has its benefits, so long as the game can also be played without an internet connection. Thanks for all the replies so far.

[flyingbullseye]

That's just the problem, you can't play it without an internet connection. There are two huge discussions going on over at simHQ about it and most are not happy. There are a couple that are in support of it, and that's fine but as many are stating this is going to be a bad move. Most there will agree that this is due to pirating, ironicly enough this move may cause the sim to be pirated in much larger numbers to get around the online only connection. Maybe the devs will see the error of their ways with the bad sales and change it in the near future.

Flyingbullseye

[tagTaken2]

Either that, or a crack to play offline will come out, and coincide with a huge jump in sales.

[Robert]

I've never pirated a game. I have a hard time saying I in fact would pirate RoF, but I feel they have tied the hands of hobbyists. I really wouldn't mind as much if six months ago or a year ago they'd have come up with this scheme. How many simmers would have been mad, but wouldn't have gotten their hopes for a WW1 flight sim? To announce their stupid copy protection measures so close to release shoots them in the foot by angering HONEST, LOYAL PURCHASING simmers.

They deserve lost sales. They deserve to be pirated. It's the honest folks who pay the price of theft. I'm seriously looking at doing exactly what I thought I'd never do - PIRATE a game.

[kristorf]

Much as I am looking forward to this game (not been a good WWI sim since RB3d) the 'need to be connected' element concerns me, why is it needed, and what purpose does it serve??

[SlipBall]

Much as I am looking forward to this game (not been a good WWI sim since RB3d) the 'need to be connected' element concerns me, why is it needed, and what purpose does it serve??


In a nutshell...anti piracy. It seem's they would like to keep a locked game locked, is my take

[JG52Uther]

In a nutshell...anti piracy. It seem's they would like to keep a locked game locked, is my take
Or...they can go 'pay to play' as you can only play on their server...

[Forgottenfighter]

Or...they can go 'pay to play' as you can only play on their server...

I thought of that but, they are walking on thin ice already, if they did that they would be paying people to come back.

[JG52Uther]

I thought of that but, they are walking on thin ice already, if they did that they would be paying people to come back.

Well unfortunately they have already shown that they have badly misjudged their target customers.

[SlipBall]

Well unfortunately they have already shown that they have badly misjudged their target customers.



Bigtime for sure! I think that they underestimate their clients, and will loose many potential sales as a result

[Igo kyu]

Either that, or a crack to play offline will come out, and coincide with a huge jump in sales.
That worries me. If that happens, they will think they have been successful with this. Non-sales they will notice, sales after piracy are still sales, so not a loss to be recognised.

I won't be pirating this, I don't ever, there are too many great old games available for very little money to go that route. Some of the old games are rubbish (or not to my taste, but I suspect it's a combination of that and some being rubbish), but there are some very good ones.

[tagTaken2]

I'm starting to wonder what people mean when they say 'piracy'.

For me, a no-cd crack that I use on my legally purchased cd is not piracy.

Downloading a hacked copy because my legally purchased cd is going to require me to connect to the internet is a bit dubious, but hey, I paid for the game, I'm damn well going to play it.

But for me, as long as I've purchased the game, I haven't technically 'pirated'. That's reserved for people who haven't paid for the game.

Are we even allowed to talk about this here ??

[Robert]

I just sent off an email to neoqb discussing how many postings from these and other forums have expressed disatisfaction at their business model.

I can't fathom why they think this would be a good idea. I urge others to do the same at: hello@neoqb.com


MAYBE they might listen to the customers who send letters instead of posting on web site forums. I've been looking forward to this game as long as anyone. To have the shirt tails pulled out so close to release like this is not funny and in poor taste.

[flyingbullseye]

But for me, as long as I've purchased the game, I haven't technically 'pirated'. That's reserved for people who haven't paid for the game. Are we even allowed to talk about this here ??

Don't know though a moderater will say yes or no. As to the piracy, personally if you purchase the game and install a no cd crack I don't feel it's pirated. Downloading a hacked copy even though you purchased a legal copy is a double edged sword. On one hand you purchased a legal copy that goes to the people that it should. The hacked copy only encourages the piracy, but as you said its a bit dubious.

Robert, even people on ROF's website blog are PO'd and voicing their distaste. They still have time to fix it, lets see what they do.

If the online connection is not fixed the only way I'm playing this sim is the demo.

Flyingbullseye

[Feuerfalke]

I never played IL2 on a PC without internet connection and I only flew a few hours offline anyway.


So, no loss for me on either side, compared to most other games I have, especially to IL2.


@flyingbullseye
If you apply a NoCD-Patch, you didn't pirate the game, you just violated the EULA by modifying protected code. Downloading the game is a crime, though, no matter if you own the rights to have a legal copy. (Noticed the term "have a legal copy"? - A downloaded and/or cracked version is not a legal copy in any regard). Depending on the means you download it with, you also give other people access to the file or parts of the file, which is another illegal act.



To the demo-thing:
Since ROF will be a STEAM-release, you can be 99,9% sure that the demo will be released via STEAM, too, just like most other games (most recently Empire:Total War). If you don't want STEAM, there's probably no way to even test the game.

[BadAim]

This is the price we pay for living amongst thieves. Right or wrong, the honest people always have to pay the price for the thieves and the fools. I will try out the demo, and see if the price is worth it in this case.

[Skoshi Tiger]

To me the biggest issue is what happens in a year or twos time. What happens is their game is not profitable and they don't get the ongoing sales? Will they just turn off their servers and move on to the next title? Even if they "guarantee" the servers will be up for X amount of time, even with all the best intentions it means nothing. The the economic crisis and all, businesses are going bust left, right and centre.

[flyingbullseye]

@flyingbullseye
If you apply a NoCD-Patch, you didn't pirate the game, you just violated the EULA by modifying protected code. Downloading the game is a crime, though, no matter if you own the rights to have a legal copy. (Noticed the term "have a legal copy"? - A downloaded and/or cracked version is not a legal copy in any regard). Depending on the means you download it with, you also give other people access to the file or parts of the file, which is another illegal act.


Did not know that, thanks.

Flyingbullseye

[usagold2004]

I think they have good intentions for going with the online thing and they arent really out to get you. At the end of the day, no one wants their stuff stolen, especially something that took years to make. So i dont fault them for wanting to protect their stuff.

However, I want to play my game when ever I want to. I dont want someone telling me when/where/how i can play it. for me, thats the most important factor in all of this.

steam isnt bad. if youre worried about people spying on your activities through the internet, dont worry, they already do! If you have a cell phone, "they" can triangulate your position to with in 500m or so as long as its on. Your tivo spies on you. every webpage you visit spies on you. (think about your online banking as your service provider routes all of your internet usage) As long as you use "their" products, "they" will spy on you.

i hope i havent made any of you paranoid folks more paranoid than you already are!

[Skoshi Tiger]

i hope i havent made any of you paranoid folks more paranoid than you already are!

We're not paranoid! We KNOW they're out to get us!

[Feathered_IV]

Sky is falling again eh? Haven't had a good one of those in a long time. :rolleyes:

[zapatista]

silly idea to try and force people to be online, i wont buy it either

there are a few other software programs that after purchasing need to be activated online when you install it, and then again be online each time you want to use them, i never bought any of those programs either and chose instead whatever competing program existed. it's just not a convenient way to use them.

what they seem to forget is that even when people have a pc, that doesnt mean they have access to reliable broadband 100% of the time as well. for ex kids taking a laptop with them when staying with relatives, adults traveling for work or going to the beach house, limited net access at home where bw is limited or only in one room (so parents can supervise what kids do on the web etc.).

there is also a personal privacy and big brother issue here, do you really want some company (which hasnt published its privacy regulations, and isnt accountable to anybody if they break it) to be constantly aware of your gaming activity pattern on a day to day basis ? we already have camera's in the street, shopping patterns being tracked when you use a credit card etc... why add more to that just to play a silly game when its not needed for the customer who already bought the product ?

[_ITAF_UgoRipley]

...If you don't want STEAM, there's probably no way to even test the game.
I don't know what STEAM is.
Why would one "not want" it ?? Why is it looked at as the pest ? Is it acting as a kind of malware ?

PS: yes, I'm reading their website...

[ZaltysZ]

Required online connection is not problem for me at all. My gaming computer always has it.

I play using HOTAS and pedals, so I don't imagine myself taking all that stuff together with my laptop on any trip. I can fly without HOTAS, but not without pedals. I leave simulators for my stationary computer and play chess, checkers, go, solitaire and alike on my laptop.

Also, multiplayer mode is essential for me as I don't fly offline. It is boring for me to fight AI and I always find novice human pilot to be more interesting than high level bot. In fact I won't not buy any combat flight sim, which has no multiplayer mode.

I think it is obvious, for what I have voted. ;)

[virre89]

First of all,

This has nothing to do with the game itself, if your a fan and love sims and was thinking of buying it, you're rather stuiped if something like a protection feature makes you boycott it. There is really only one logical excuse for being against this and that is the people whom for any reason can't/don't have a broad band connection, i total understand your frustration.

As for people that have a broad band connection , what are you whining about?
The simulation market is thin enough, if you love sims and the theaters like this then support them and buy their games.

Todays evolution of the Internet is no secret, the majority has broadband even if many don't play games online or even go online in their games it's fair enough to say a lot of people have the ability to. As we all know the Internet can be used for plenty more than gaming....

By saying this will affect sales on a 50-70% scale i'd say you're way off your head, this online community that hangs on sites like this is just a small amount of the fans that actually buys it, the majority as with most games comes with the buyers that you never see online.

So why doesn't the majority play online/go online?... well most certainly the main reason ain't that they don't have a connection, they might just not be interested in playing online or lack common sense on how to do it or just not being hardcore gamers etc etc many reasons..

As an simple example:
I Know a lot of friends that only use Internet for surfing etc etc, even tho they own broad band , and yes the play games a lot but not in clans and they don't hang with the online communities, in other words a typical average customer/gamer.

I am rather sure this won't effect the sales at all especially not in stores, it's still no secret that a lot of games today require an online stream from the master servers to even work. Anyway everyone has all right in the world to make up their own decision im not claiming otherwise , but if you decide not to buy it, then stand by your choice and for god sake do not download it illegally.. that will only destroy the industry even more.

[virre89]

To me the biggest issue is what happens in a year or twos time. What happens is their game is not profitable and they don't get the ongoing sales? Will they just turn off their servers and move on to the next title? Even if they "guarantee" the servers will be up for X amount of time, even with all the best intentions it means nothing. The the economic crisis and all, businesses are going bust left, right and centre.

They will simply remove the login feature if something like that would occur.
Besides even if the company would go bankrupt or something its very comon that servers are handed over or taken over by a willing partner for the continues satisfaction of the customers.

[Igo kyu]

First of all,

This has nothing to do with the game itself, if your a fan and love sims and was thinking of buying it, you're rather stuiped if something like a protection feature makes you boycott it.
Nothing to do with the game itself, what on Earth do you mean? of course it's about the availability of the game.

I'm not boycotting it, I'm just not buying it. I like sims, but I hope I am not a fanatic (which is what "fan" means).

There is really only one logical excuse for being against this and that is the people whom for any reason can't/don't have a broad band connection, i total understand your frustration.
You are wrong about that, first off, if it's logical, it's a reason not an excuse.

As for people that have a broad band connection , what are you whining about?
I'm not whining, I'll leave that to you.

I'm not buying it because I don't want my card details spread around the web, to be abused by phishers.

The simulation market is thin enough, if you love sims and the theaters like this then support them and buy their games.
Theaters? what has this got to do with acting in plays?

I like good games, but I wouldn't say I love them, I certainly do not intend to deliberately buy bad games just to help support some mythical industry.

By saying this will affect sales on a 50-70% scale i'd say you're way off your head, this online community that hangs on sites like this is just a small amount of the fans that actually buys it, the majority as with most games comes with the buyers that you never see online.
If, as it seems will be the case initially, the only place it can be bought is online, then the online community is they only one that matters (until, later, it makes it to the shops if it sells well enough online). The poll at the top of this page is making 50%-70% look like a very good guess.

I am rather sure this won't effect the sales at all especially not in stores, it's still no secret that a lot of games today require an online stream from the master servers to even work.
I have yet to knowingly buy one of those games, I often look and put them back on the shelf when I spot that requirement.

Anyway everyone has all right in the world to make up their own decision im not claiming otherwise
How generous.

if you decide not to buy it, then stand by your choice and for god sake do not download it illegally.. that will only destroy the industry even more.
The owners won't give a hoot about that, they only care whether you pay them or not. I won't pirate it, but I won't buy it either.

[virre89]

Nothing to do with the game itself, what on Earth do you mean? of course it's about the availability of the game.

I'm not boycotting it, I'm just not buying it. I like sims, but I hope I am not a fanatic (which is what "fan" means).

Well obviously i meant the gameplay/engine etc, it's not a bad game because their choice of protection. I thought it was obvious enough but apparently not..

You are wrong about that, first off, if it's logical, it's a reason not an excuse.

No its logical, and how am i wrong about it ? Please explain.
To me its rather clear that you'll be upset if you don't have a broadband connection. And of course i personally feel sorry for the people that can't play the game, but speaking for myself i'd never go as far as don't play the game just to help others state the fact that they didn't like the copy protection choice. (I still want the game even if it has starforce i don't care.. never bothered me)

I'm not whining, I'll leave that to you.

I'm not buying it because I don't want my card details spread around the web, to be abused by phishers.


Whining? o_O
Totally understandable that some people don't like to pay online. But i suppose the risk of getting ripped on money is just as rare as with putting your card into the cash dispenser these days with all the technical equipment. As long as you pay to companies like valve/steam you're totally on the safe side, it's all about common sense.

Theaters? what has this got to do with acting in plays?

I like good games, but I wouldn't say I love them, I certainly do not intend to deliberately buy bad games just to help support some mythical industry.

I meant Theatre such as ww1, my bad.
If you think Rise of Flight is a bad game because of it's copy protection I've nothing more to apply... seriously it's like saying the Car drives and feels bad just because the door lock isn't automatic and i won't buy it therefor.

If, as it seems will be the case initially, the only place it can be bought is online, then the online community is they only one that matters (until, later, it makes it to the shops if it sells well enough online). The poll at the top of this page is making 50%-70% look like a very good guess.


Ye but i was talking about the boxed version which will be available in numerous countries , didn't you read the recent interview... It will be available in both digital and hard copy form.

"2. Other than a downloadable version of the game, will non-Russians be able to buy a boxed version of the game? Any chance at a "collector's edition" of the game?

Our main target is to reach every interested user and to make «Rise of Flight» available for everyone. That's why we are taking every possible option (Russian and foreign publishers) in order to deliver our product to our customers in a hard and digital copy. Collector's edition will not be available outside Russian market. After master-disk release we will publish on our blog the list of counties where the game in a box set will be available."


I have yet to knowingly buy one of those games, I often look and put them back on the shelf when I spot that requirement.

Good for you, i wouldn't miss out on such a great gaming experience just because of something like that which has nothing to do with how the game plays.

You're loss mate.
The owners won't give a hoot about that, they only care whether you pay them or not. I won't pirate it, but I won't buy it either.

Developers care more than ever about copy protection and piracy these days. It's evolved beyond control and they've every right to protect their product by any means they feel is necessary.

[Igo kyu]

Well obviously i meant the gameplay/engine etc, it's not a bad game because their choice of protection. I thought it was obvious enough but apparently not..
We do not play these games without outside influences, there are graphics cards, CPU speeds and numbers, neither of which are part of the game engine. If the choice of protection prevents some potential buyers from playing it, that's the developer or publisher's choice, and a loss for both of them.

No its logical, and how am i wrong about it ? Please explain.
Simply, a reason is true, and an excuse is false. There can be no such thing as a logical excuse.

To me its rather clear that you'll be upset if you don't have a broadband connection. And of course i personally feel sorry for the people that can't play the game, but speaking for myself i'd never go as far as don't play the game just to help others state the fact that they didn't like the copy protection choice. (I still want the game even if it has starforce i don't care.. never bothered me)
I'd be a little upset, but not enough that I'd pay twice what is currently paid.

Whining? o_O
Your post talked about people whining. I was responding to that.

Totally understandable that some people don't like to pay online. But i suppose the risk of getting ripped on money is just as rare as with putting your card into the cash dispenser these days with all the technical equipment. As long as you pay to companies like valve/steam you're totally on the safe side, it's all about common sense.
I'm not so sure.

If you think Rise of Flight is a bad game because of it's copy protection I've nothing more to apply... seriously it's like saying the Car drives and feels bad just because the door lock isn't automatic and i won't buy it therefor.
There was a time, in the 1970s I think, when there were said to be four different keys to all the Ford cars in Britain, presumably some people didn't buy them because they didn't want their car stolen.

Ye but i was talking about the boxed version which will be available in numerous countries , didn't you read the recent interview... It will be available in both digital and hard copy form.

"2. Other than a downloadable version of the game, will non-Russians be able to buy a boxed version of the game? Any chance at a "collector's edition" of the game?

Our main target is to reach every interested user and to make «Rise of Flight» available for everyone. That's why we are taking every possible option (Russian and foreign publishers) in order to deliver our product to our customers in a hard and digital copy. Collector's edition will not be available outside Russian market. After master-disk release we will publish on our blog the list of counties where the game in a box set will be available."
I did read that, I probably forgot it, but a list of countries where the box will be available could be short or long, and if it's immediately available online that would presumably be first, though perhaps not by so much as I thought.

Good for you, i wouldn't miss out on such a great gaming experience just because of something like that which has nothing to do with how the game plays.

You're loss mate.
Requiring a network connection to log in every time you start it is part of how the game plays.

Developers care more than ever about copy protection and piracy these days. It's evolved beyond control and they've every right to protect their product by any means they feel is necessary.
It's their right to do that, it's my right if I don't like it for whatever reason strikes my fancy, not to buy it. I would not suggest that anyone had any right to pirate it, but so long as you don't do that, you've every right not to buy it if you don't want to.

[Bloblast]

I voted I don't mind.

If this is a good way to prevent piracy, it's all right with me.
Piracy is a serious threat of having quality combat flight simulations as IL2, Storm of war and Rise of flight in the future!

[Feuerfalke]

Yes, it is a biased vote as there are 2 negative votes and one neutral, but no positive vote.

@_ITAF_UgoRipley

STEAM is sort of gamebrowser, like Hyperlobby in many ways. It contains buddy- and chat-functions as well as the ability to join online-games your friends are playing. Additionally it also contains voice-chat, autoupdate and even mod-support and access to exclusive demos.
On the downside, it sends data to STEAM, like what games you play and how much, so you get special offers fitting your interests.

As you can see, there are many parallels to Hyperobby, even more to other gamebrowsers like AllSeeingEye, X-Fire, Gamespy, etc. It's just that STEAM is the largest and also offers a platform to sell games.

Is it bad in general? Well, you have to make up your own mind, but as STEAM also offers own ways to provide hack- and cheat-protection, I guess in our internet-world, it is the future of how games will be distributed (especially smaller games, independend games, etc.)

[_ITAF_UgoRipley]

Oh well - that helps a lot. Not as bad as I first understood...

[Skoshi Tiger]

They will simply remove the login feature if something like that would occur.


Who exactly is "They"? If the company goes into recievership, it's assets will be placed into the hands of the recievers and frozen. I doubt there would be anyone, save hackers, that would unlock the game. Too bad for the poor mugs who own the game.


Besides even if the company would go bankrupt or something its very comon that servers are handed over or taken over by a willing partner for the continues satisfaction of the customers.

Who is this "willing partner"? Like as not the servers will be auctioned off to pay crediters, the game could also fall in the hands of a company that wan't to milk the customers for every last cent. One auto update "patch would be all it would take to make it into pay for play! Once again, too bad for the poor mugs who own the game.


There are too many uncertainties, poor old simmers like me still work on the premis that if we pay to a game we own it. Unfortunately we don't and the big issue for me here is that even though we've paid for it were tied into their online verification just to use our licence.

i'm sure the developers of ROF have all the best intensions. Unfortunately one they develop the sim they pass it on to the Publishers, who pass it on to the distributors who pass it on to the retailers. The Developers have very little to do with the sim once it leaves their hands! Just note on how long we've been waiting for 4.09 to come out of Beta!


Cheers!

[zapatista]

First of all,

This has nothing to do with the game itself, if your a fan and love sims and was thinking of buying it, you're rather stuiped if something like a protection feature makes you boycott it.

so to use your logic, when you want to buy an apple for lunch, and at the store they hand you an apple that is covered in poop, you'd still eat it "just because you are an apple fan and planed to eat one for lunch that day" ?

its an idiotic scheme, thought up by some greasy haired pimple faced sales drone who doesnt know anything about marketing in the pc gaming world

the other issue is, will they even have a clear warning label on the game box to inform potential buyers, stating for ex "warning: this game can ONLY be played while your pc is connected online to our private server, a permanently active internet connection is needed for it to work at all times !", or is that going to be a hidden "feature" and they plan on conning people with misleading advertising ? and can people get their money back once they realize the old bait and switch has been used ? we all know the answer to that one eh

[tagTaken2]

Good analogy.

[ElAurens]

Guys, guys, guys, take a deep breath here.

The devs of this game are/were mostly online pilots from IL2. Online is what they care about, and what they know. Why is their decision so shocking? Personally I'd be willing to bet that they have a good idea about the size of their potential market doing the thing the way they are going about it, and don't care about this issue.

They are building a sim to suit their vision, not yours, mine, or anyone else's.

I'll buy the thing anyway.

Online is the true arena anyhow.

Offline is meh, at best.

[Skoshi Tiger]

so to use your logic, when you want to buy an apple for lunch, and at the store they hand you an apple that is covered in poop, you'd still eat it "just because you are an apple fan and planed to eat one for lunch that day" ?

its an idiotic scheme, thought up by some greasy haired pimple faced sales drone who doesnt know anything about marketing in the pc gaming world

the other issue is, will they even have a clear warning label on the game box to inform potential buyers, stating for ex "warning: this game can ONLY be played while your pc is connected online to our private server, a permanently active internet connection is needed for it to work at all times !", or is that going to be a hidden "feature" and they plan on conning people with misleading advertising ? and can people get their money back once they realize the old bait and switch has been used ? we all know the answer to that one eh

Lucky I ate my apple BEFORE reading your analogy ;) But then again it was home grown and my wifes into permaculture so like as not it was!!!!!!

<I think, Call of Duty World at War uses this sort of protection on it's game. Once you start the game it logs you on to the server and then you choose solo play (I have never played online with this game). Might have to go home tonight, pull out my internet, start up the game and see if I can still play? >

[No I was wrong, CoD lets you play without an Internet Connection!]

Cheers!

[JG52Uther]

You can tell its a REALLY bad idea because me and zapatista agree on something for once! ;)

[virre89]

so to use your logic, when you want to buy an apple for lunch, and at the store they hand you an apple that is covered in poop, you'd still eat it "just because you are an apple fan and planed to eat one for lunch that day" ?

its an idiotic scheme, thought up by some greasy haired pimple faced sales drone who doesnt know anything about marketing in the pc gaming world

the other issue is, will they even have a clear warning label on the game box to inform potential buyers, stating for ex "warning: this game can ONLY be played while your pc is connected online to our private server, a permanently active internet connection is needed for it to work at all times !", or is that going to be a hidden "feature" and they plan on conning people with misleading advertising ? and can people get their money back once they realize the old bait and switch has been used ? we all know the answer to that one eh

.... I'd say my example with the car is a little bit more mature.
As for the box warning , yes their required to say that the game requires an online connection, however not that you'll need it for the Single Player aspect of the game as well.

But then again, in todays society broadband is almost as common as having a TV so seriously i doubt it's gonna effect store sales at all, it's another thing with digital distribution thou. It really isn't surprising that they take this approach and i welcome it, helps getting less piracy at release.

GTA 4(PC) got to love those developers including anti crack coding making cars drive etc if you had a cracked version.. took about two weeks until the game was cracked 100% and many potential pirates bought the game instead. Thats how pirates should be threated , it was rather fun hearing about all frustration from the illegal people.

Get you're money back? It's what 40-50$ maximum come on, as soon as you buy an game you agree with their license agreement and everything which is included in the product. I'd prefer if Battle of Britain had something like this as well, but of course i still want people that don't have the ability to have a BB connection to be able to play the game obviously.. but if developers think this is the new approach then its just to adapt.

People make it sound a little too serious, almost like the world is becoming a minority report(the movie were the government controls everything).

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

*Voice of Yoda* "Begun, the Sim wars have........." :eek:

[Forgottenfighter]

I, myself, think that most people will end up buying the sim. But it is not all about sales (at least it shouldn't be), it should be about customer satisfaction. The consumer base for this kind of a sim is largely enthusiast based, and the vast majority of those enthusiasts have no problem paying $50 for a good sim. I really don't think pirating is such a big issue. Anyways, I'm sorry for starting a civil war amongst the community, my bad.

[JG52Uther]

I don't think you have FF!
For me,I fly 99% online,and REALLY want to give the RoF team my money.My main concern is :if the company goes bankrupt/server goes down/they abandon the game then RoF will be unusable.

[Bobb4]

I don't think you have FF!
For me,I fly 99% online,and REALLY want to give the RoF team my money.My main concern is :if the company goes bankrupt/server goes down/they abandon the game then RoF will be unusable.

Not sure if you are right... look at WW2 online still going strong, in its market segment despite the orginal publishers giving up...
You then have Eve online, 30 000 people all paying $14 a month to play...
How many people these days do not have internet access?
Will i pay to play an online only game, yes. would I like it to have offline feature? Yes but if they do not I can live with it.
The real question has nothing to do with money. It is simply, will ROF be fun, a realistic enjoyable experience.
If it is, then count me in, if not... Well :)
The poll question is rather biased "Yes, I might reluctantly buy it w/o offline mode" The assumption is already made that the person clicking this is reluctent. 12 million people play WOW online only. Obviously they are not a niche market as most claim flight sims are but it is testemony to the fact that ten years ago, having 100 000 people playing your product online was awesome... Times change.

[jasonbirder]

Well i for one hope that they fail...and there is every reason to believe that they might...after all I am a hardcore sim fan, i have copies of just about every single sim from the last 15 years on my shelf...and if they can't persuade me to be a copy (I am after all their target market am I not) what chance do they have with the wider public? Particularly as times are a little tough for people right now...so they're taking just a little more care and thought when it comes to spending $40 on a discrectionary purchase...

I am not against buying online...nor am i against downloading software either..so i'm no luddite but the idea of being forced to be online whilst i'm playing offline is an anathama to me...Bearing in mind that the majority of software users are offline only players...that huge proportions of people who buy software never even bother to register or download a patch...that large portions of the world don't have easy and cheap access to 24/7 broad band connections then you cna see that they are handicapping themselves before they have even started...

What marketing genius came up with this business model...did they sit around having a "brainstorming" session?
Did someone say.."I know what would really push sales of our product...restricting its use to people that have a 24/7 broadband connection" and "i think if we could generate alot of negative feelings about the product amongst our core market of existing flight sim players that would really help too!"
Doh!

I am opposed to it in principle because i think its wrong for the vendor to dictate when and how i can play with the software i have purchased...I don't want them having access to my machine or my data i don't want them to have my details so they can bombard me with advertising and spam...I don't want them sharing my information with other marketing bodies... i don't think its practical why can't people without a 24/7 broadband connection play the game? Why can I not play the game if my wife is working from home and using the bandwidth? Or my daughter studying? Why can't I play the game when i'm away from home on holiday or if i want to take it and play it on the laptop away from my router? What about people who live in regions were broadband connections are hard to come by? What happens if i want to change my internet provider? Or if i simply have an outage...why should i be barred from playing the game? The strategy is quite obviously paving the way for a pay to play system - you will be "encouraged" to purchase extra content as its only half a step away from a subscription based game...The policy is to encourage the use of the game as an online dogfighting arena without the necessity of the developers creating a detailed and immersive offline environment and campaign...is it any coincidence that this revelation comes hard on the heels of question marks about ROF's offline environment and mission creator? They obviously hope to shortcut the development process by squeezing as many people as possible into a cookie cutter dogfight environment...

[Forgottenfighter]

The poll question is rather biased "Yes, I might reluctantly buy it w/o offline mode" The assumption is already made that the person clicking this is reluctent. 12 million people play WOW online only. Obviously they are not a niche market as most claim flight sims are but it is testemony to the fact that ten years ago, having 100 000 people playing your product online was awesome... Times change.

The question is not really biased. Suppose there were only two variables, they would be "Yes" and "No". So what is the "in-between", you have got to be somewhat reluctant otherwise you would have chosen "Yes" or "No". So maybe I could have left out the "reluctantly", but both sides of the argument are catered for, you still have a "Yes"/"No"/"Maybe" vote. I am not trying to swing the argument.

[Subliminal Message] Do not buy ROF [/Subliminal Message] :twisted:

[jasonbirder]

The phrasing of the poll isn't the most important thing...the important fact is that in a poll of people who are online (obviously) interested in flight sims (or they wouldn't be on the IL2 board) AND interested in Rise of Flight (or they wouldn't be reading the thread...
Over half say they wouldn't buy it...
Ha! Ha! Ha! What chance do they stand of making it as far as the second release of planes before they're bankrupt...Not alot i would guess..so don't hold out waiting for Gotha's and Handley Page bombers...I doubt they'll get as far as a Camel and a Fokker Tri-decker at this rate...
Still there's always OFF isn't there ;)

[Thunderbolt56]

Required online connection is not problem for me at all. My gaming computer always has it.

I play using HOTAS and pedals, so I don't imagine myself taking all that stuff together with my laptop on any trip. I can fly without HOTAS, but not without pedals. I leave simulators for my stationary computer and play chess, checkers, go, solitaire and alike on my laptop.

Also, multiplayer mode is essential for me as I don't fly offline. It is boring for me to fight AI and I always find novice human pilot to be more interesting than high level bot. In fact I won't not buy any combat flight sim, which has no multiplayer mode.

I think it is obvious, for what I have voted. ;)


I feel exactly the same way Zaltys.

I'm not a big fan of STEAM (sort of turned me off of HL2 as well) and I don't like the "idea" of online verification software being mandatory...but I doubt it will stop me from buying it. What will stop me from playing it though will be if there is ultimately a very small online community, limited 3rd party involvement (mostly in the form of forums and information exchange) as a result and questionable content.

It seems most of the community is pleased with most of the content we've been shown so far (no-man's land and the trenches could use a bit of polishing IMO) and it would be a shame if such a positive thing as what RoF has heretofor promised is allowed to kind of wither away due to such a thing as copy protection implementation. The same thing happened to a degree with LOMAC.

Hopefully, there is an acceptable middle ground somewhere.

[ZaltysZ]

Ha! Ha! Ha! What chance do they stand of making it as far as the second release of planes before they're bankrupt...Not alot i would guess.

Do you really know who is making RoF? :grin: They are the same team who have created IL2SC (Server Commander), which is run on half servers of IL2, and who have run G1, G2 and ADW projects. Most of them like playing IL2 an other sims. I think RoF is much more for them than paid job. Also, if you look for some information about their company, you will see that RoF is only a project related to one of many direction their companies business is oriented to. They are not company which is only interested in game development, so I really doubt if total failure of RoF could lead to bankrupt. If they were desperate to get as much money as they could, they would be making something like Ace Combat and not a sim.

[jasonbirder]

I am more than aware of who they are and what they are involved in..its one of the reasons that i have questions about this business model...
I suspect that they see the RoF as being ultimately about the multi-player aspect of the game...the dogfight environment and the online servers...with off line play and single player campaigns as very much playing second fiddle to their interests..perhaps as merely an arena to practice in or a training ground before getting online...
Requiring the user to be 100% online 100% of the time is just their way of transitioning off line players to the multi-player environment...
I hope they fail and i hope that their business model proves to be a resounding dud...discouraging anyone in the future from attempting anything similar...
I can see the attraction froma developers point of view...a succesful offline game requires a lengthy investment in creating AI, campaign engines, mission builders and that elusive "sense of immersion" etc...rather than merely banging together some FMs, DMs and graphics and leaving the user to get on with it...all the more reason to hope that other developers in future aren't encouraged from following in their footsteps

[Bobb4]

Key Features
The whole western front of the First World War on one map: 125 000 square kilometres of the territory, which have been carefully transformed in digital format from the maps of that period (1917-1918)
Take a real copy of planes and land equipment recreated from original engineering drawings
New aerodynamic model authentically recreating physics of planes of the First World War and of aerodynamic forces. You get an exciting feeling of piloting a real plane – from a moment of takeoff to a landing
New model of damages developed by real parameters of a motor group, a structure of a glider and also various damage levels of a pilot
Modern graphics based on the own engine «Digital Nature»
Mission editor with different level of complexity
Flexible system of customisation of complexity of flights, intelligence of opponents, control of plane systems, navigation
Unique system of awards and ratings in a cooperative mode of the game. It is based on a growth of a player competence in the field of game and history knowledge
Gameplay is based on the logic of conducting real operations of aviation in that period of time (the World War I)
Flexible adjustment of realness of modelling of planes
AI uses various tactics depending on task types
Opportunity to play intricate plots with the help of the «events» system in missions
Animation scenes with characters, whose prototypes are real pilots of the World War I
«Career» mode - generated missions on the basis of the historical data about actions of the aviation in 1917-1918. Users can choose a plane type, a regiment and a date with which they wishes to begin their career
«Network» mode - a command game mode in which each of parties has fixed objectives simulating real fighting situations. This mode includes filters, various competitive elements and also the united system of statistics which is based on system of «professions» where you can carry out different tasks to get special points
Opportunity to buy additional planes and other military equipment and use it in the «Network» mode

Who says no AI or offline mode?

The following missions will be available: correction of artillery fire, battle reconnaissance, bombers convoy or interception, dog fights between the most known aces of WWI

Another extract, will they have human player flying as the aces????

[Bobb4]

The game will require an online account to play. Even offline. They promised that traffic in case of offline play will be minimal and even a crappy dial-up line will do. Add-ons and updates will take up to 200mb, but are planned to eat about 50mb on average.

The whole thing will be a bit like Steam or Battlefield or some MMOG - you buy a box or order it online, then you can go to their store and buy planes for much smaller sums. Or rather the right to fly those planes. E.g. there may not be a flyable SE5a in the box release, but you might see AI or other players online fly them - to get yourself into its pit, you'll have to pay.

Also if a dedicated modders group decides to work with them and makes a plane of proper quality, they can put it up in store, sharing profit. They told me OFF team was really interested.
Extract from another forum but illustrates the point

What is all the fuss is about, really? Normally the only people that moan about online verification of games are friends of Captain Jack Sparrow

[jasonbirder]

Really...I don't thinkso...its not about copy protection..I have no problems with that whatsoever...
I never complained about Boontbox and I never moaned about starforce..I had the original Pe2 extension (4.05) and I have LOMAC and Flaming Cliffs..and will have DCS Black Shark when it arrives in the UK...
Its about something completely different...being online 100% of the time being MANDATORY even when playing in single player mode...
It is to all intents and purposes eliminating Offline play (even single player mode requires you to be online)
I don't play online...not now, not ever nor will i do so, nor will i purchase an online only game...
Its a shame i liked the look of RoF and given by the huge pile of IL2 stuff i've bought over the years...campaigns, Dynamic Campaigns, add ons compilations etc etc...you would have thought i'd be the target market for them (You know...plays flight sims alot, spends his money frequently, has no issues buying downloaded content, has a reliable and fast broadband connection) so if their business model puts me off...what chance does it stand with the wider public?
I resent it being portrayed as a copy protection issue...i'm fine with (even relatively intrusive) copy protection...I just don't want to play online...

[JG52Uther]

Key Features

Who says no AI or offline mode?

?

Guess you missed this bit Bobb

5. Can I play ROF in offline mode?

No, you can't.

[ZaltysZ]

I think Bob have wanted to say "single player mode" instead of "offline mode".

[jasonbirder]

(Apologies for cross posting)
3. Do I need an internet connection to play ROF?

Yes, because first of all we are talking about online service, where you can get together with many other people with same interests, where you can get in groups and play against other users or AI and many more.

4. What kind of copy protection is used in ROF?

User online authorization, which processed in game GUI each time you startup "Rise of Flight".

5. Can I play ROF in offline mode?

No, you can't.

6. If an internet connection fails while playing ROF, what will happen? Can I start the next mission? Same with career mode, what will happened with my statistics?

"Connection error" message will appear and you will not be able to continue without proper internet connection, thus all statistics will be lost. But if connection to the internet will be reestablished before the end of the mission this problem might not appear. Please note that multiplayer mode will crash due to lack of internet connection.

7. If an internet connection is required, what amount of traffic (in/out) will there be within one hour?

In multiplayer mode, depending on eventfulness, there will be considerable amount of traffic.
In singleplayer mode (single mission, training, career) - the amount of traffic will be minimal (only statistics and system messages)

8. What advantages will I have when playing ROF (online connection)?

- Most of game settings are saved (backed up) on our master-server. (After terminal change all settings will be transferred automatically)
- Integrated statistics system
- The rules of our game will not change (the same rules apply for all users) in multiplayer and single player mode. Thus both modes will provide competitive game play for all users
- We do not have content scramble system, thus there is no problems.
- Possibility to update game (most of game files) without any downloading and installing.
- And many more

9. Can I download patches separately? How do I install them? (do I need to have an internet connection)?

- The system works automatically. All available patches will be downloaded and installed automatically each time user startup the game.
- In order to provide competitive game play for all users (fair play) you will only be able to run your game if you have the latest patch installed on your system
- To download the latest patch (update) your pc should be connected to the internet.


Seems pretty draconian to me...way beyond simple copy protection!
*Primarily talking about online modes
*No Offline Play
*Lose internet connection...lose your mission
*Even in single player mode you'll be exchanging data in the form of statistics and systems messages
etc etc

[Bobb4]

Guess you missed this bit Bobb

5. Can I play ROF in offline mode?

No, you can't.
Sorry I meant single player

[virre89]

Really...I don't thinkso...its not about copy protection..I have no problems with that whatsoever...
I never complained about Boontbox and I never moaned about starforce..I had the original Pe2 extension (4.05) and I have LOMAC and Flaming Cliffs..and will have DCS Black Shark when it arrives in the UK...
Its about something completely different...being online 100% of the time being MANDATORY even when playing in single player mode...
It is to all intents and purposes eliminating Offline play (even single player mode requires you to be online)
I don't play online...not now, not ever nor will i do so, nor will i purchase an online only game...
Its a shame i liked the look of RoF and given by the huge pile of IL2 stuff i've bought over the years...campaigns, Dynamic Campaigns, add ons compilations etc etc...you would have thought i'd be the target market for them (You know...plays flight sims alot, spends his money frequently, has no issues buying downloaded content, has a reliable and fast broadband connection) so if their business model puts me off...what chance does it stand with the wider public?
I resent it being portrayed as a copy protection issue...i'm fine with (even relatively intrusive) copy protection...I just don't want to play online...

Why are you bothering to whine about it over and over again, seems like you want them to fail badly pointing out that their gonna lose sales and how it will go for them when their bankrupt wtf... you're not contributing

Apparently their willing to take the chance and i hope they succeed because the quality of the game looks stunning, and we've all been waiting for a decent ww1 sim for several years.

Internet and requirement of online connection ain't unusual in todays society so i doubt they'll lose any significant sales, sure some but i doubt the majority. I mean there's online only games all around us such as Battlefield series(yes they've sp mode but is a totally 100% focused MP game), mmorpgs etc etc

[Tvrdi]

Here is the response from their Blog...



Welcome to the future, or «Rise of Flight» off-line.

What is «Rise of Flight» in virtual life - we have shown you in our past blogs with some videos, screenshots, illustrated graphic s process, physics and aerodynamics.

Today we will tell you about what is «Rise of Flight» in a real life. First of all I would like to begin with telling you what it's actually not, it's not your just another "cd" with game on it.

From the beginning we were engaged in developing with more than just another game, but a basement - platform for future development.

«Rise of Flight» will run mostly on powerful computers. All the requirements are based on calculations and cannot be questioned. Up-to-date computers will provide you with better scenery picture and overall game quality. The same apply to the internet connection/ online play. Online connection is the fundamental basement for all big projects. We are not short-lived game and we can all see the disadvantages of online connection but what about all the advantages?

Online connection in «Rise of Flight» will give you:

1. Virtual game world. First of all «Rise of Flight» is a constructer, which will be updated frequently, we will develop and make the game better. «Rise of Flight» - is a world in development, the key point of this project is online play.

2. Up-to-date game versions will guarantee smooth play with no bugs for all users. Not to mention free updates which will be downloaded automatically each time you login into game. Each time new version or an update is available (new areas, landscapes, weather condition) - it will be automatically downloaded and installed on your system. This system will provide you with nice updates and exclude any bugs while playing in multiplayer.

3. At any time you can log on and have a look at your statistics and ratings worldwide. You will be able to access our server, which is collecting statistics from to all users. You can always log on and a have a look at the "Hamburg score"..." for your notice: according to one circus legend, which was told by Victor Shklovsky, fighters from all over the world used to gather up in some old Hamburg pub, they used to close up all doors and windows and fight with "no fooling around". Only once in a year in Hamburg they could really understand who is "numero uno" and who is "numero 99". At any time and any game server (multiplayer or career mode) your statistics will be counted and shown in statistics worldwide (except singleplayer mode). Even in few years time you will be able to access your statistics and compare it to everyone else. And who knows, maybe you will be the best?

4. Possibility to make some cash and to take participation in development. There is something that we have not mentioned yet. As I have told you - «Rise of Flight» is not just a game, it's a platform, which will allow users not only to enjoy game play, but also to participate in development of this project and to earn money. For your notice: you can make your own stuff, from missions and campaigns to fighters, landscapes, villages and cities. We would like to ask everyone to participate because we will not be able to cover every part and possibility of this game. If not you guys (users) who will else better know what this game really need. Only with online connection we will be able to see the best stuff from, to understand what is interesting for users and what we can put into production for updates

* just a small notice for everyone with traffic or internet connection problem. For "career mode" or "singleplayer mode" you will only need connection to start up or end up your mission (for your statistics). The rest of the time basically you don't have to be connected to the internet. 3-4 hours play traffic will equal to one downloaded page on our blog. In "multiplayer mode" you should be connected to the internet at all time.

[nearmiss]

Here is the response from their Blog...

Welcome to the future, or «Rise of Flight» off-line.


* just a small notice for everyone with traffic or internet connection problem. For "career mode" or "singleplayer mode" you will only need connection to start up or end up your mission (for your statistics). The rest of the time basically you don't have to be connected to the internet. 3-4 hours play traffic will equal to one downloaded page on our blog. In "multiplayer mode" you should be connected to the internet at all time.

Don't you find this intrusive. Who the heck should care about my statistics when I'm OFFLINE.

Just another way to datamine

[JG52Uther]

Don't you find this intrusive. Who the heck should care about my statistics when I'm OFFLINE.

Just another way to datamine
Oh I don't know.I am very happy to open my computer to an unknown Russian company...not!

Clever how they release updates for months to get us all going,then spring this rubbish.I think they were out of touch if they thought everyone would be happy.

[tagTaken2]

Welcome to the future, my ass.

None of the reasons they've provided have any appeal to me.

Who wants to start a pool on how long before neoqb tank if we don't get an offline option?

[Tvrdi]

Oh I don't know.I am very happy to open my computer to an unknown Russian company...not!

Clever how they release updates for months to get us all going,then spring this rubbish.I think they were out of touch if they thought everyone would be happy.

unknown russian company did a great job....like maddox when they were "unknown russian company"...go back to your redneck nest....

[KG26_Alpha]

Who wants to start a pool on how long before neoqb tank if we don't get an offline option?

Who cares !!!

[JG52Uther]

unknown russian company did a great job....like maddox when they were "unknown russian company"...go back to your redneck nest....

Not American,so not a redneck!
Also Oleg didn't require me to log in to his company server everytime I start il2.

[virre89]

This is just getting out of hand.
Let them release the title b4 you cry about it so much..
It's the 21st century and the Internet have evolved more than ever especially within gaming, me personally i don't find anything fun in playing offline in the long run for games like this unless there's a story/cinematic involved, sure fun to download custom maps/mods and missions but eventually the challenge comes with the MP aspect with clans, tournaments , ladders or just playing vs other humans on a public server.

And if that's what their trying to create (more players online even get the average gamer to go online) then , we'll just have to accept it.

[jasonbirder]

eventually the challenge comes with the MP aspect with clans, tournaments , ladders or just playing vs other humans on a public server

It may be where your challenge comes from...but it certainly isn't where everyones comes from

And if that's what their trying to create (more players online even get the average gamer to go online) then , we'll just have to accept it
Or reject it...Or indeed reject it quite vocally as we feel they are trying to modify gamers behaviour and impose their idea of what a flight simulation should be all about on us...

I don't want to go online...

[JG52Uther]

I hope Oleg is reading these threads...

[Baron]

This is just getting out of hand.
Let them release the title b4 you cry about it so much..
It's the 21st century and the Internet have evolved more than ever especially within gaming, me personally i don't find anything fun in playing offline in the long run for games like this unless there's a story/cinematic involved, sure fun to download custom maps/mods and missions but eventually the challenge comes with the MP aspect with clans, tournaments , ladders or just playing vs other humans on a public server.

And if that's what their trying to create (more players online even get the average gamer to go online) then , we'll just have to accept it.


I think u fail to see the main reason why A LOT of people dont like this new development, they took something that is an option (offline) most people use atleast once and most of the time more than that and turned into some kind of a problem.

Simply put: why should u or the dev team or anyonelse for that matter care when and if i play singel player mode?

Seriously, give me 1 valid reason and ill give u a milion bucks.


"Copyprotection" doesnt fly, if you are that scared of pirates dont sail on the 7 seas.




P.S. Its we the consumer who decides how the market look, not the other way arround. (If people dont like the game, product or whatever, it fails, end of story) and does 3 out of 10 in favor sound like "we" need to get with the program?

[SlipBall]

It does seem as though this will be a sure fire way to prevent piracey. I mean it appears to be bullet proof. Let's face it, every game has gotten hacked, some in record time. These developers/publishers are starting to play hardball:-P

[tagTaken2]

Everything gets hacked, as you said.

The interesting part is that many potential customers will now be waiting for a hack, so they can purchase and play offline.

[Baron]

It does seem as though this will be a sure fire way to prevent piracey. I mean it appears to be bullet proof. Let's face it, every game has gotten hacked, some in record time. These developers/publishers are starting to play hardball:-P


Like someonelse said: its also a nice way of torpedoing your own ship before even leaving dry dock. :)


I do wonder who thought releasing this kind of important tidbit now and not 12/6 months ago was a good idea. LoL

[SlipBall]

Like someonelse said: its also a nice way of torpedoing your own ship before even leaving dry dock. :)


I do wonder who thought releasing this kind of important tidbit now and not 12/6 months ago was a good idea. LoL


The gloves are off and they don't care. Look for this in SOW as well I'm sorry to say...hope not

[SlipBall]

Everything gets hacked, as you said.

The interesting part is that many potential customers will now be waiting for a hack, so they can purchase and play offline.


Maybe, I'm not sure that we will even have a copy on our hard drive's after we purchase. At least its not clear to me right now:confused:

[ElAurens]

I don't want to go online...
Afraid you might get shot down for once?

:rolleyes:

This title will be a success.

If you don't want to go online then don't.

KTHANXBYE.

[Igo kyu]

If you don't want to go online then don't.

KTHANXBYE.
I don't play online.

I do get shot down by the IL*2 AI that everyone online apparently calls too easy, my reactions are shot and not going to improve. I'm "addicted" to slowed time and external views.

Since I don't play flight sims online, and am not that likely to, I'm only interested in single player. I don't want to know how far from the bottom of some world ranking I am, I'm certainly not going to be near the top. Software phoning home is almost entirely negative, for me.

It may be about developers getting tough with pirates, I'm not sure that's going to work out, as I've heard said a lot before, it seems to be the customers that get the rough end of that deal, even though they are not the ones causing the problem.

[Chivas]

I'd be interesting and laughable to see how many people here, who are so against any kind of game protection, would change their tune, if they owned a percentage of the PC game.

[zapatista]

Here is the response from their Blog...
.....Online connection in «Rise of Flight» will give you:


2. .... Not to mention free updates which will be downloaded automatically each time you login into game. Each time new version or an update is available (new areas, landscapes, weather condition) - it will be automatically downloaded and installed on your system. This system will provide you with nice updates and exclude any bugs while playing in multiplayer.
.

so not only do they expect permanent online access exists for all gamers at all times, but they seem to think we will trust them enough to let our home/work pc's become virtual drone terminals where they can constantly install and alter files without owner control/authorization ? dream on folks, pull the other one !

when you add to that they already say you will have to pay for addon planes and other new features, we are being sold a pig in sheeps clothing it seems. when a few months later they provide a major upgrade in features or scenery, they will want another 50$. ahh and if you dont pay you cant use your old game anymore because it is not compatible with whatever for sale crap they again added to their servers.

they dont seem to want us to realize the you are starting on a conveyor belt of perpetual upgrades where we are treated as dumb cash machines. pox and petulance for ten generations on the moronic brain that came up with this plan ! duh there is already a model for this, a free game, where you pay an online monthly fee ! calling their current marketing plan anything else is misleading.


let us il2 fan's thank the gods for having somebody like oleg involved in the sim world, giving us lots of features and options, single player, multiplayer, coop, single missions, campaigns (dynamic and scripted), online and offline, etc.. and yes once we have bought the game we are willing to pay later for whatever new the CUSTOMER WANTS to add in new planes/scenery add those new features or upgrade, because we can also still use the product we initially payed for if we dont upgrade. not that hard to grasp the basic concept, is it now :)

just hold on to your cash folks, all we need from oleg will be a couple of ww1 planes and ROF will be blown aside, and yes, that will be with oleg's grass moving in the wind at the same time we start our engines :)

[zapatista]

I'd be interesting and laughable to see how many people here, who are so against any kind of game protection, would change their tune, if they owned a percentage of the PC game.

nothing wrong with copy protections, as long as they dont damage my pc and as long as those copy protections dont create major hassles or problems for the real customers (for ex the starforce crap cost me 2 dvd-writers, and i payed for the game that caused this, and guess what the con artists who made the "feature" are nowhere to be found when i want them to provide me with a replacement drive, what a surprise)

the biggest problem with software piracy is organized commercial mafia syndicates selling games/software/video's in 2e and 3e world countries that dont enforce copyright laws (like china, india, russia, eastern europe etc..). it is extremely rare for this to be marketed in a large scale that way in western europe, the north american mainland, auz and nz, japan etc.... the problem there is not the end user buying a copied game/video, it is the corruption in law and order (which usually has kickback's and payoff's from the local cops all the way up the "official" bureaucracy in those countries), and it is usually deliberately not addressed by the politicians (for ex 95% of all chinese computers used in their official government offices run on pirated software), and there is a complete lack of enforcement and regulation of copyrights.

for those western developed markets where various branches of governement and law and order will do their part in enforcing copyright laws, copyright infringement problems are mostly from one teenager making a game/video copy for a school friend, and most of what they give each other for free they wouldnt spend their money on if it could only be accessed by purchasing it anyway, because they wouldnt be interested in it enough. to inconvenience the real customers in those richer developed markets with half baked and clumsy or faulty protection schemes is foolish, because that is the only place these games/video/software makers can get any money from.

[Chivas]

Do you actually think developers and publishers would spend huge amounts of monies to protect their property if there wasn't a piracy issue. Its also highly unlikely they're doing it just to piss off their customers. They have to do something as the internet regulators are doing nothing to stop the obvious illegal downloads.

[zapatista]

Do you actually think developers and publishers would spend huge amounts of monies to protect their property if there wasn't a piracy issue. Its also highly unlikely they're doing it just to piss off their customers. They have to do something as the internet regulators are doing nothing to stop the obvious illegal downloads.

you'r mixing up to many concepts and trying to make them into a drinkable soup, not all of what you said fits together ;)

Do you actually think developers and publishers would spend huge amounts of monies to protect their property if there wasn't a piracy issue.

yes there is a piracy issue, and yes some basic protections are needed, but keep that in the context that wholesale and bulk piracy is not being address. also "adding protection" should not equal inconveniencing and damaging genuine customers, it is possible to avoid that to.

and spending "huge monies" as you say it, to add a faulty and inconvenient copy protection doesnt mean that the amount of money spent directly equals the quality level of the copy protection either. you can spend smaller money on it more smartly, and have a better result :)

Its also highly unlikely they're doing it just to piss off their customers.

copy protections are often only added as an afterthought, once the product is finished, this then limits the methods they can cheaply apply to add copy protection. the end result in many cases is that they do piss off the real customers, and this shows their professional incompetence in marketing software to their real target market. add to that that they simply dont care if they piss people off as long as the sales drones make money, and you end up with the mess we have in the last few years.


They have to do something as the internet regulators are doing nothing to stop the obvious illegal downloads.

it is not the big bad internet that is the problem, or the lack of enforcement tools by commercial internet companies to infringe the rights of citizens in western countries, it is the fact that the biggest source of large scale piracy is not being address.

and why is it not being addressed you may ask ? simply put, because there are additional even larger scale "other commercial interests" at work in those same "markets" that over rule or push aside those smaller copyright interests of the entertainment industry. for ex your and my government actively engage those copyright infringing countries in international trade negotiations to make agreements that benefit ford, bmw, mastercard, siemens, hoffman laroche, bayer, shell, Lockheed-Martin, etc... so that those companies are given access to those markets (free trade agreements, and "market access" agreements), and in exchange of those large companies getting access for their products our governments will tolerate some minor issues not being addressed, err like like lack of copyright enforcement for example.

the enemy of pirated games is not us the legitimate customers and aviation enthusiasts, it is large criminal piracy syndicates and corrupt government officials in 2e and 3e world countries. and yes, there are solutions to this that still allows my kids to play their games while on hollidays, and doesnt require my pc hardware to be damaged.

[|ZUTI|]

The best way to fight piracy is pricing. If the price is right i buy stuff. If not, i get stuff.

Don't really care about this online thing. I'll get the game if the demo shows nice flight models and if the price won't be too high. I am curious though how the game will behave if connection is lost during missions (summer and summer storms, my connection resets sometimes :D).

[Codex]

Totally understandable that some people don't like to pay online. But i suppose the risk of getting ripped on money is just as rare as with putting your card into the cash dispenser these days with all the technical equipment. As long as you pay to companies like valve/steam you're totally on the safe side, it's all about common sense.

I'm not so sure.
Just to qualify myself, I work for one of the four major banks in Australia. Credit card fraud via online intercepts is not as prevalent as you might think. It is very hard for someone to obtain your details purely via intercepting net traffic. Over 80% of credit card fraud reported to us was the result of customers using fraudulent sites, responding to phishing emails, allowing "friends" to use their cards and identity theft where thieves went through rubbish bins collecting sensitive documents like bank statements and even purchase receipts (look closely as to how much info is on that receipt.)

Generally speaking purchasing goods via legitimate online sites, in itself, is no more risky than buying a bunch of flowers over the phone or even paying for fuel at a service station.

Besides if you find you have been a victim of credit card fraud, your card issuer must investigate the matter and if your found not to be at fault, your guaranteed by law to get your money back.

Just wanted to put some perspective surrounding this issue.

Oh BTW, I have no problem with needing a net connection to play ROF. If it hampers pirates then more power to the developers I say. But then I have a biased opinion regarding this.

[virre89]

It may be where your challenge comes from...but it certainly isn't where everyones comes from


Certainly isn't but the fact remains that SP stays static vs mp which is more dynamic and anything can happen, smart AI is one thing but humans is another thing.

Or reject it...Or indeed reject it quite vocally as we feel they are trying to modify gamers behavior and impose their idea of what a flight simulation should be all about on us...

I don't want to go online...
Reply With Quote

Just don't buy it then, they've made their decision and it's their product not yours. They certainly ain't doing this just to piss you off which you seem to think.

I hope Oleg is reading these threads...

I wouldn't mind him implementing this as well... maybe you do but its still a great solution, except for the fact that the offline users can't play the game.


I think u fail to see the main reason why A LOT of people dont like this new development, they took something that is an option (offline) most people use atleast once and most of the time more than that and turned into some kind of a problem.

Simply put: why should u or the dev team or anyonelse for that matter care when and if i play singel player mode?

Seriously, give me 1 valid reason and ill give u a milion bucks.


"Copyprotection" doesnt fly, if you are that scared of pirates dont sail on the 7 seas.


It's defiantly not a definite option these days, just look around you there's a lot of online-only games and maybe this is the future for the simulation market as well. Dear god , i hope you're aware that the simulation market is very thin already and piracy ain't helping and the developers have to do something.

My VAILD reason is piracy and the only once to blame for todays copy protections is the customers, if the world wouldn't be filled with greedy kids downloading everything we wouldn't need this kind of stuff.

It may be about developers getting tough with pirates, I'm not sure that's going to work out, as I've heard said a lot before, it seems to be the customers that get the rough end of that deal, even though they are not the ones causing the problem.

Customers are the only reason why copy protection exists it's not just there to make you pissed. We are the problem, not the developers when it comes to protection features.

I'd be interesting and laughable to see how many people here, who are so against any kind of game protection, would change their tune, if they owned a percentage of the PC game.

Very true, people here didn't invest millions in the product and that's why they fail to see the reasons why the developers do this.

so not only do they expect permanent online access exists for all gamers at all times, but they seem to think we will trust them enough to let our home/work pc's become virtual drone terminals where they can constantly install and alter files without owner control/authorization ? dream on folks, pull the other one !

when you add to that they already say you will have to pay for addon planes and other new features, we are being sold a pig in sheeps clothing it seems. when a few months later they provide a major upgrade in features or scenery, they will want another 50$ ahh and if you dont pay you cant use your old game anymore because it is not compatible with whatever for sale crap they again added to their servers.

they dont seem to want us to realize the you are starting on a conveyor belt of perpetual upgrades where we are treated as dumb cash machines. pox and petulance for ten generations on the moronic brain that came up with this plan ! duh there is already a model for this, a free game, where you pay an online monthly fee ! calling their current marketing plan anything else is misleading.


let us il2 fan's thank the gods for having somebody like oleg involved in the sim world, giving us lots of features and options, single player, multiplayer, coop, single missions, campaigns (dynamic and scripted), online and offline, etc.. and yes once we have bought the game we are willing to pay later for whatever new the CUSTOMER WANTS to add in new planes/scenery add those new features or upgrade, because we can also still use the product we initially payed for if we dont upgrade. not that hard to grasp the basic concept, is it now

just hold on to your cash folks, all we need from oleg will be a couple of ww1 planes and ROF will be blown aside, and yes, that will be with oleg's grass moving in the wind at the same time we start our engines


You don't believe you can trust a developer .. dear god.
Where's you're proof of updates without your agreement? They've said they will allow constant updates automatically via their service, that doesn't mean you won't know it's happening. You're most likely going to have to accept it each and every time.

And as we all know there is an single player mode just that it requires an online connection for statistics, meaning that you can most likely play without owning the latest patches or stuff like that. When going online you'll need game updates that fix stuff like glitches,bugs and balance due to synchronization and cheat protection .. but for game content such as planes etc it will be up to the customer if he/she wants to buy it as a flyable otherwise you'll only see others fly around in them.

Do you trust anyone?.. the cash dispenser?
Common sense is one thing but paranoia is another one.

I am defiantly not going to hold on to my cash and miss out on such an awesome title, but you go ahead sir your loss.
We all know that BoB is currently far away and that it's centered around ww2, meaning you won't see any ww1 planes in it anytime soon.
Besides i think RoF game engine looks stunning with all the particle effects,lightning and wind flow, i think you're just very pissed at the moment but please don't try to convince us buyers of standing down because i couldn't care less if you do.

[ZaltysZ]

let us il2 fan's thank the gods for having somebody like oleg involved in the sim world, giving us lots of features and options, single player, multiplayer, coop, single missions, campaigns (dynamic and scripted), online and offline, etc.. and yes once we have bought the game we are willing to pay later for whatever new the CUSTOMER WANTS to add in new planes/scenery add those new features or upgrade, because we can also still use the product we initially payed for if we dont upgrade. not that hard to grasp the basic concept, is it now :)

So why somebody, who had bought IL2 FB and AEP, had to buy PF and eventually "jet/lerche" stuff, just to make his game online compatible? :-) How this is better then what will be in RoF?

[zapatista]

You don't believe you can trust a developer .. dear god.
Where's you're proof of updates without your agreement?
wrong question, you should be asking "what is the evidence we can trust this new group of sales people" and start on the perpetual conveyor belt of us being milked for more money at every turn ? right now they are already several steps in the wrong and showing they cant be trusted, for ex giving misleading information during development to artificially generate interest, provide misleading information in their sales pitch ( clear warning on game box in store, or clear warning in online sales webpage) without an option to get your money back once innocent buyers have been misled thinking they have bought a "normal" game.

They've said they will allow constant updates automatically via their service, that doesn't mean you won't know it's happening. You're most likely going to have to accept it each and every time.

keyword being "most likely" in what you just said, aka you giving your personal opinion about something you cant guarantee to be the case right now, and just seem to have a blind faith all will be well if you just keep giving them money. the way i read that is that for 50$ i get the first put-put plane from 1914, and 6 weeks later johny next door buys the souped up 1918 model and i cant compete online unless i spend more money again.

And as we all know there is an single player mode just that it requires an online connection for statistics

you must be living in santa clause land if you believe the internet connection is just innocently used to provide "player statistics" for ladders and competitive tables.

if that was the whole reason the solution would be very simple, keep a normal single player ofline function, and whenever the person in future goes online popup a little window that says "would you like to submit your player stats online : yes/no", simple eh. since that is not the case its again an example of them providing misleading information.



meaning that you can most likely play without owning the latest patches or stuff like that. see there you go again waving around your hypothetical "most likely's" as if they are gospel truth, they aren't, you are just speculating



Besides i think RoF game engine looks stunning with all the particle effects,lightning and wind flow,....

looks to me like an old grafix engine that tried to copy the now dated il2 world we already have, with a few new effects added, maybe 20% improvement over our current il2 we already have (and with free mods can be similarly improved 20% to). once BoB is released it will be a 300% improvement with a brand new 2009 game and grafix engine with multiple expansion possibilities built in for many years to come.

you of course can do with your money whatever you like, including tossing it out the window :) most of us are more selective, by force, choice, or principle !

[Nike-it]

Rise of Flight is not 1C game and the tread is moved to "Other Topics"!

[zapatista]

So why somebody, who had bought IL2 FB and AEP, had to buy PF and eventually "jet/lerche" stuff, just to make his game online compatible? :-) How this is better then what will be in RoF?

because each of those is a stand alone product which is fully functional on its own

you buy the game and play it wherever and whenever you want. the older versions are now still being sold at a big discount, the newer versions are a little more expensive. so you get whatever you pay for, some days you also still find servers running the oleder versions online.

btw, anybody notice there is also no LAN option in ROF, so much for late night or WE LAN parties at the office

[ZaltysZ]

for those western developed markets where various branches of governement and law and order will do their part in enforcing copyright laws, copyright infringement problems are mostly from one teenager making a game/video copy for a school friend, and most of what they give each other for free they wouldnt spend their money on if it could only be accessed by purchasing it anyway, because they wouldnt be interested in it enough.

We have paradox here. For example, Russian version of IL2 1946 has completely no copy protection, but versions for western "developed" markets have it. :grin:

[ZaltysZ]

because each of those is a stand alone product which is fully functional on its own

No, they are not. For example, you can't play "Pe2" without owning previous versions, the same goes for "Shturmoviks over Manchuria" and "1946" (not talking about unified DVD). Further, people interested only in PTO and owning Pacific Fighters can't install "Shturmoviks over Manchuria" to get important addition of Japanese fighters without getting FB+AEP+PF+Pe2. The only stand alone products are FB and PF, the others are not (IL2 1946 DVD is standalone, but it is only composition of previous versions).

Multiplayer part is not so simple. So what there is some PF or FB servers there and here. Mostly they are created by new players, which have bought the game just because its price seems attractive to them and they know little about whole series. In such servers people fly with relaxed settings and even without joysticks. That does not look as good multiplayer experience to me. So for me, the version I play is dictated by my favorite servers. If they upgrade, I have to upgrade my game too, or drop playing it at all.

[virre89]

@ Zapatista

wrong question, you should be asking "what is the evidence we can trust this new group of sales people" and start on the perpetual conveyor belt of us being milked for more money at every turn ? right now they are already several steps in the wrong and showing they cant be trusted, for ex giving misleading information during development to artificially generate interest, provide misleading information in their sales pitch ( clear warning on game box in store, or clear warning in online sales webpage) without an option to get your money back once innocent buyers have been misled thinking they have bought a "normal" game.


You're speculating just as much , making huge assumptions regarding the developers without knowing shit, they only difference is that i know their not doing it to piss us off which you constantly seem to forget. You sound like you think there's a hidden agenda ... oh yeah and the government is working against us... right



keyword being "most likely" in what you just said, aka you giving your personal opinion about something you cant guarantee to be the case right now, and just seem to have a blind faith all will be well if you just keep giving them money. the way i read that is that for 50$ i get the first put-put plane from 1914, and 6 weeks later johny next door buys the souped up 1918 model and i cant compete online unless i spend more money again.


Since when can you guarantee for example anything about BoB? We have so little info regarding BOB we basically don't know anything and we've not seen any real game play except for what was on the IL2 1946 disk yet you worship it. (fanboy?)

Leave BoB out of this, it's gonna be a great game but isn't here for another year or two.

Why don't you let us buy the RoF product and then we can calmly tell the kids that ignored it that it's no harm in buying RoF n that we're having a blast add to that, that
you won't be forced to buy DLC to be able to play online. My best bet is that it's gonna work just like the DCS series with DLC, whoever buys the DLC will be able to play the DLC planes but whoever don't is still gonna be able to play with them just not fly those planes for example.

Speculations.

you must be living in santa clause land if you believe the internet connection is just innocently used to provide "player statistics" for ladders and competitive tables.

if that was the whole reason the solution would be very simple, keep a normal single player ofline function, and whenever the person in future goes online popup a little window that says "would you like to submit your player stats online : yes/no", simple eh. since that is not the case its again an example of them providing misleading information.

It's required to prevent pirates, upload statistics and allow for constant updates.
see there you go again waving around your hypothetical "most likely's" as if they are gospel truth, they aren't, you are just speculating

No less "hypothetical" than you're statements. As i've said the difference is that i trust them and you don't... i've yet to see ANY developer fool their customers regarding accounts/credits etc

looks to me like an old grafix engine that tried to copy the now dated il2 world we already have, with a few new effects added, maybe 20% improvement over our current il2 we already have (and with free mods can be similarly improved 20% to). once BoB is released it will be a 300% improvement with a brand new 2009 game and grafix engine with multiple expansion possibilities built in for many years to come.

you of course can do with your money whatever you like, including tossing it out the window most of us are more selective, by force, choice, or principle !

BOB doesn't have anything to with this but as i mentioned before you sound like a fanboy that knows everything. BoB might be the next gen flight sim but we've close to no info and a release date which probably is more than a year away. Rise of Flight focuses on WW1 which BoB doesn't, if you can put together a mod team which can develop such a quality mod for BoB within a half year after BoB release that matches RoF then go ahead, I'll bet my head you can't.

You believe that the RoF engine is 20% better than the current IL2 engine? Please sir let me know if you know anything regarding physics, lightning , rendering, particle effects, polygons etc

Its a whole new game with a whole new engine, it's gonna be improved a lot and implemented with some of todays standard features, which means it's already way ahead of the old IL2 engine. Tell ya what.. I'll make sure to come back and discuss it again when RoF is released, with the copy in my hand or in digital form you can then harass me as much as you want and I'll tell you exactly how it feels to have spent 50$ on RoF.

[ZaltysZ]

Its a whole new game with a whole new engine, it's gonna be improved a lot and implemented with some of todays standard features, which means it's already way ahead of the old IL2 engine.

Regarding game engine, developers on sukhoi.ru have said that running RoF on multi core system nearly doubles frame rates comparing to single core. Physics also looks promising: moving air masses, wake turbulence, fouling of spark plugs, engine stalls and midair restarting while diving and etc. That forum thread is already 100 pages long and certainly gives more information than developer's blog.

[virre89]

Regarding game engine, developers on sukhoi.ru have said that running RoF on multi core system nearly doubles frame rates comparing to single core. Physics also looks promising: moving air masses, wake turbulence, fouling of spark plugs, engine stalls and midair restarting while diving and etc. That forum thread is already 100 pages long and certainly gives more information than developer's blog.

Yup , it sounds very promising, can't wait :cool:

[ElAurens]

I think I need to open a tin foil hat concession this forum, I'll be rich beyond belief.

The answer is simple.

Don't want to connect, don't.

Find another game you can play by yourself in your bunker.

What a bunch of whiners.

[Igo kyu]

The only stand alone products are FB and PF, the others are not (IL2 1946 DVD is standalone, but it is only composition of previous versions).
This is mistaken I believe, there have been more stand alone DVD/CD versions, the original Sturmovik was stand alone, the Complete Edition DVD was stand alone, it included stuff that had been released before, but some of the content was download only before that time, and if you installed that DVD as the only copy, it would run.

[ZaltysZ]

This is mistaken I believe, there have been more stand alone DVD/CD versions, the original Sturmovik was stand alone, the Complete Edition DVD was stand alone, it included stuff that had been released before, but some of the content was download only before that time, and if you installed that DVD as the only copy, it would run.

"IL-2 Sturmovik" should be regarded as different game than the famed IL2 series most people play now. "IL2 Forgotten battles" is sequel (not addon or expansion) to "IL-2 Sturmovik".

The hole series went so: "IL2 Forgotten Battles" (stand alone), then "Aces Expansion Pack" (not standalone, required FB), then "Pacific Fighters" (standalone or merged with FB+AEP; standalone incompatible with merged), then Pe2 (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF), then "Shturmoviks over Manchuria" (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF+Pe2), then (in fact together with previous) "1946" (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF+Pe2+Manchuria). Almost at the same time "IL2: 1946" was released, which of course was standalone as it was FB+AEP+PF+Pe2+Manchuria+1946 inside one DVD. There was some other DVDs like "IL2 Forgotten Battles Gold Pack" which included FB+AEP and "IL2 Sturmovik Series Complete Edition", which included FB+AEP+PF, however I see them only as re-release of old product.

In any way, the point is not about releases, but about modularity (or lack of it). For example, PF and FB+AEP+PF was not compatible (people owning merged version could not join pure PF servers), the same with Pe2 addon (FB+AEP+PF and FB+AEP+PF+Pe2 differed only in quantity of aircrafts and maps, still however FB+AEP+PF+Pe2 could not join FB+AEP+PF). Oh, and the patches. FB+AEP+PF had some nice patches, from which aircrafts from different theatres of war benefited, however these patches could not be applied nor to FB, FB+AEP or PF alone. So, the idea of IL2 series: "you will get free updates only until next addon is released". This is different than in DCS or RoF, which are modular. For example, in DCS you will get engine updates for free until the end of series (even if the whole engine is rewritten), only new aircrafts will cost to you (but you will get updates even if you don't buy new aircrafts).

[Igo kyu]

"IL-2 Sturmovik" should be regarded as different game than the famed IL2 series most people play now. "IL2 Forgotten battles" is sequel (not addon or expansion) to "IL-2 Sturmovik".
Sort of; FB was distinctly different from IL*2 Sturmovik, but if the graphics weren't identical, they were obviously closely related, a superset of the same planes were present in FB, and the scoring UI from "Sturmovik" has resurfaced in "1946".

The hole series went so: "IL2 Forgotten Battles" (stand alone), then "Aces Expansion Pack" (not standalone, required FB), then "Pacific Fighters" (standalone or merged with FB+AEP; standalone incompatible with merged), then Pe2 (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF), then "Shturmoviks over Manchuria" (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF+Pe2), then (in fact together with previous) "1946" (not standalone, required FB+AEP+PF+Pe2+Manchuria). Almost at the same time "IL2: 1946" was released, which of course was standalone as it was FB+AEP+PF+Pe2+Manchuria+1946 inside one DVD. There was some other DVDs like "IL2 Forgotten Battles Gold Pack" which included FB+AEP and "IL2 Sturmovik Series Complete Edition", which included FB+AEP+PF, however I see them only as re-release of old product.
You have forgotten that "IL*2: 1946" also includes the missions from the original "Sturmovik" as a career, which is my other reason for including it as part of the IL*2 series. The Complete Edition may have been old product re-released, but it was old product that hadn't been available here (in the UK) for years, you could buy FB, you could by PF, but you couldn't buy the Aces Expansion Pack, and without that you couldn't use FB on the PF flight model.

In any way, the point is not about releases, but about modularity (or lack of it). For example, PF and FB+AEP+PF was not compatible (people owning merged version could not join pure PF servers), the same with Pe2 addon (FB+AEP+PF and FB+AEP+PF+Pe2 differed only in quantity of aircrafts and maps, still however FB+AEP+PF+Pe2 could not join FB+AEP+PF). Oh, and the patches. FB+AEP+PF had some nice patches, from which aircrafts from different theatres of war benefited, however these patches could not be applied nor to FB, FB+AEP or PF alone. So, the idea of IL2 series: "you will get free updates only until next addon is released". This is different than in DCS or RoF, which are modular. For example, in DCS you will get engine updates for free until the end of series (even if the whole engine is rewritten), only new aircrafts will cost to you (but you will get updates even if you don't buy new aircrafts).
I only fly offline, so I wouldn't have the foggiest idea about the online situation.

[Thunderbolt56]

This was posted by FLiF (a member of the neoqb dev team) on the RoF blog:

FLiF → 3/18/2009 11:43:52 PM

Hello,
I see so many questions like "what if something happened....". Do you think that developers have never thought about it? There were so many discussions and even arguments here. You should be polite in the blog and use proper words since it's kind of an official place here, but we feel free to tell whatever we think in our team. It's one of the good principles of our work here. Do you really think we all like the idea of SP with Internet connection needed? But still, it's going to be like that at least for now:
1. you have to connect to server to play SP (at least to start the game and start a mission).
2. you don't have to pay for every flight online or every month to continue playing.

PS: Sure, we are reading your comments (both Russian and English versions). And we are taking then into consideration. Too much work right now to keep replying here instantly.

Thanks,
FLiF, Neoqb team

[wheelsup_cavu]

Thanks Thunderbolt56. :)

Wheelsup