how do you dealing with black dragons as a mage ?

[kemydes]

those black dragons are a real pain to deal with as a mage. I have found (i am sure i am not the only one^^) a good way to deal them massive damage with a combo with the green dragons to put them in a trap. But against great stack it is not enough to get rid of these and after the trap its a real nightmare:), so if someone as a good strategy ... post it please.

[Ahuitzotl]

Since they are not affected by magic they are tough. Fire resistant units are good vs. them, like Demons and of course your own Black Dragons.

The basic strategy is to attack them with some worthless unit to absorb their counter attack then pile on with everything else you have. For a mage the best way to create a worthless unit is the Phantom spell.

[Lestas]

there are lots of ways to OHKO dragons in most cases
* Skeleton archers (or elves) + Dragon Arrows
* Faeries (with the ring)

[bsctgod]

I casted Mass Dragon Slayer on my troops and threw in Knights into my standard troop layout after hitting Haas' Labyrinth.

If you're lucky to get some decent anti-dragon items, you can also wear the Shield of Rahha(+6 Defense, -50% attack of enemy dragons) and that sword that gave +5 attack and +50% attack against dragons; the green-hued one, can't remember the name of it.

[lanstro]

If you use a single-stack dryad army, armageddon will destroy blackies. I didn't run into any black dragon stacks large enough to survive 3 armageddons in impossible.

[Lathspell]

I managed it with the mass dragon slayer spell + elves and hunters. Faeries kinda suck against them, since they have magical damage. Also the ghost sword spell goes through their resistance, so that's an option as well. And of course, the Reaper's Black Hole is wonderful. Knights are another nice option, and their speed is not that big of an issue since the dragons will come to you. Couple that with the sword and the shield that give bonuses against them + dragon slayer spell, and you've got a killer stack. The nice part is that they're in infinite amounts at the castle by the time dragons pose a real problem.

[YENKO]

Since dragons have such a high initiative, investing in Readiness after hitting Demonia may prove useful.
Also, buffing high-initiative stacks (like lake fairies+Anga's ring) will allow you to have the first strike. Not spells on the dragon itself, but something else like spawning extra fodder units and place them on the dragon path, like Demon Portal, Phoenix, Phantom, Trap etc.

In KB there is no such thing as 'universal army composition'.

[Gatts]

Since dragons have such a high initiative, investing in Readiness after hitting Demonia may prove useful.
Also, buffing high-initiative stacks (like lake fairies+Anga's ring) will allow you to have the first strike. Not spells on the dragon itself, but something else like spawning extra fodder units and place them on the dragon path, like Demon Portal, Phoenix, Phantom, Trap etc.

In KB there is no such thing as 'universal army composition'.

Now I realized I never tried TRAP on black dragons... does it actually work?

[TemjinGold]

Now I realized I never tried TRAP on black dragons... does it actually work?

Yes but you need Green Dragons to drag them over it. Otherwise, they just fly past the trap.

[lauvhk]

All Dragons walk if the moving distance is two hexes or less.

[Gatts]

Well I usually pasted the trap just in front of my unit where I expected enemy to walk to hit me hand-to-hand... there is not so much variation when AI is deciding whom and how to hit... but well... I remember many lost traps in battles un-triggered... I just hope I won't walking there again... :)

[Stepsongrapes]

there are lots of ways to OHKO dragons in most cases
* Skeleton archers (or elves) + Dragon Arrows
* Faeries (with the ring)

Physical damage archers + Dragon Arrows is definitely my favorite way of taking out dragons, especially black dragons. A fair-sized stack of hunters can take down 10 or more blacks in one shot.

Take away their defense and what you have left is a lizard with generally poor hit points for its leadership value that goes down easy.

[Gatts]

Well, there are sure many ways of taking down dragons, and I use many of them... but my favorite is:

Plague (-30% to all stats) + Ancient Vampires (bats) (if enemy is too strong, I use phantom/ necro call to give my real units some time to "recover" using hit'n'run tactic) But what I like is not the effectiveness, but the REAL BLOOD hand-to-hand battle mode... FACE to FACE battle with dragons... AWESOME IMHO

[YENKO]

but the REAL BLOOD hand-to-hand battle mode... FACE to FACE battle with dragons... AWESOME IMHO

Amen to that.....and then some mana farming and resurrect everyone :D

[stpkg]

ArchDemon
Dragon Sword
Black Hole

[Hento]

Archdemons are like made to kill all kinds of dragons-fire immunity, deal high physical damage, high initiative, highest speed and high health.

[Darmani]

I used the artifact that gives -1 speed to enemy flying (can't remember what it's called). Makes it so enemy blackies don't quite have enough speed to attack me, but the dumb AI still moves as far as it can, leaving them vulnerable to Royal Snakes+Dragon Slayer. I also did a lot of using my own blackies to absorb retaliation.

[Metroplex]

Get another Blackie in your army, I find that MY blackie is tronger then THEIR blackie!:grin:

[Dabrinko]

Can you use sacrifice to get more blackies?

[Gatts]

Fighting black dragon with another dragon (red/black) is not as useful IMHO (Emerald one is OK - he is dealing PHYSICAL damage)

Against black/red dragons? -> Archdemons 85% Fire resistance, what is handy against fire attacks for these nasty dragons, teleport (can flee in the most away corner, or attack the best hidden enemy) Each start in the round they dispell all negaive spells, but still can bear positive spells... AND there is nice mod that makes them even more HANDY.

On maxed level sacrifice works for archdemons (not to mention you can have demons in your army, one of best middle level TANKs if not best, who can summon demonic army, good source of sacrifice)...

[joca_bt]

errr, dragon slayer? lol

[foolstone]

Fighting black dragon with another dragon (red/black) is not as useful IMHO (Emerald one is OK - he is dealing PHYSICAL damage)

Against black/red dragons? -> Archdemons 85% Fire resistance, what is handy against fire attacks for these nasty dragons, teleport (can flee in the most away corner, or attack the best hidden enemy) Each start in the round they dispell all negaive spells, but still can bear positive spells... AND there is nice mod that makes them even more HANDY.

On maxed level sacrifice works for archdemons (not to mention you can have demons in your army, one of best middle level TANKs if not best, who can summon demonic army, good source of sacrifice)...

sommoned creature can not be sacrifice. 1.67b

[lauvhk]

Can you use sacrifice to get more blackies?
Black Dragon cannot be replenished by Sacrifice. Armageddon is the only active spell that hits the Black Dragons.

[Dabrinko]

I found 45 Black Dragons in the deathlands... Normal diff. Paladin. I can have 6 Blackies (in contrast to 10 emerald)

I have:
Hunters,
Horsemen
Inquisitors
Dryads
Emeralds

If I go for blackies, which group should I ditch?

[lobo76]

personally, i would keep your current lineup, versus adding a blackie.

[Metathron]

Of the stacks you have, I'd exchange the horsemen for the dragons.

[Dabrinko]

Thanks for the advice, guys! Since my post, I have exhanged the Horsemen for Knights (replenishable now, after the deadlands) and I have Evil Beholders in reserve (since Inquisitors lacks in the ranged department when not fighting undeads).

I find the Knights...lacking. Is it because I only have 8 (or so) in attack? Somehow, I almost only got "defence" when leveling up and have around 24-28 (depending on items).

Thinking of switching them out, but they have very good morale. (+2 I think)

How survivable (is that even a word?) are the blackies? No spell effect (but armageddon and Gizmo) so no stoneskin, Magic spring or nuttin'.

[Ryastar]

Personally, since you already have dryads, and probably anga's ruby then, i would add sprites to your line up. They are quite amazing little fighters. If you can't find sprites, consider lake fairies, though they aren't near as good as sprites. I would recommend those units in place of the knights. Another thing i would recommend is red dragons for your green ones, at least for the land of the dead. Red dragons are tough and deal a lot of damage, without the total spell immunity that hampers their black cousins. They are ALWAYS available in the land of the dead, in the set off ridges near Karador's castle (black dragons are also around there, but i don't recommend them as highly).

[Dabrinko]

Thanks again for the advice. I have "hordes" of sprites in Ellinia, so they are quite easy to get. I thought Lake Fairies were better (no fire weakness), but they are not in "hordes". Don't have God armor yet, so fire could be a problem. Will try them out though.

Haven't found Red Dragons yet. The Dragon Cave I found in the deadlands sells 45 Black Dragons. Is there another one? I'll go and take a look.

I use Emerald Dragons mana source a lot. It will be a lot of strategies gone bye bye if I replace them, but I am willing to try. One can always load a save, as I always say.

[jwallstone]

My impression was that Lake Fairies are better than sprites too. They are more attack oriented (4/2 vs 3/3), have higher damage range (1-3 vs 1-2), better inititative and speed (6/5 vs 5/4) and are not vulnerable to fire. To top it off, they require less leadership (7 vs 8), so you can get more of them. The only downside is less hp (6 vs 8), but everything seems to more than compensate for that.

[Ryastar]

My impression was that Lake Fairies are better than sprites too. They are more attack oriented (4/2 vs 3/3), have higher damage range (1-3 vs 1-2), better inititative and speed (6/5 vs 5/4) and are not vulnerable to fire. To top it off, they require less leadership (7 vs 8), so you can get more of them. The only downside is less hp (6 vs 8), but everything seems to more than compensate for that.

You've got it backwards, sprites have the 1-3 damage, and 4/2 att/def. You are right about the init, speed, hp and leadership, and fire vulnerablity, though. If you can get both (and are willing to give space to both), do so, but if only one, sprites are superior.

The cherry on top for sprites is their dispel ability, useful in tight spots to remove a dangerous spell effect once you have already cast a spell, or need that spell for something else.

[jwallstone]

My mistake. Why are my eights being turned into smiley faces? Test: 8

Edit: I think I got it. It's because there's a parenthesis right after the eight. Test: 8)

[MaelstorM]

I think we are talking about hard or imposible difficulty here

OK you see Black and Red dragons from valey of death
Theres few army there with (on hard) ~20 Blacks or ~35 Reds and ~1-2k level 1-2 monsters
You have 1 Dragon Sword, your best anti fire units highly probably dragons, demon, knight
With normal luck your leadership is 15-18k

Skeleton archer? what if your wife is mirabela / neoka and you dont have enough might rune to get the 1st round initiative bonus?
Black hole? at most you kill 3 Reds from each stack
Armagedon? if your spell does 2500 dmg, you'll lost your own Black
Trap? how about the other 2 dragons stacks?
Timeback? most probably you use this on your tank, but your archer also alredy left 4/5th by 2nd turn, and will not available again until the next 3 rounds
Phantom? you'll want to phantom your strongest unit, but the dragons will pound on your weakest

How can you win with no loss? On impossible?

[Ryder]

Trap is a great spell against Blackies. I always set my army up in a way that they will always land where I cast trap. They cant resist landing somewhere where they can attack two of my army at once. At the moment it is doing between 3200 and 4900 damage (Impossible Mage). I just wait with my Sprites and Lake Fairies and then attack them after their turn. At the moment I am travelling around Demonis with Lake Fairies, Sprites and Dryads with my Black Unicorns and Elves in reserve.

The enemy hasnt had a look in.

[jwallstone]

There's one really useful tactic against Dragons that I haven't seen mentioned that I used for most of the Land of the Dead fights. I set up all of my ranged/magic/weak troops in a corner, then cast Ice Thorns to completely surround these troops (or Stone Wall if it happens to work with the terrain, but this happens less often). Surprisingly, most of the Dragons will never try to touch these troops, unless there's nothing else good for them to attack on the outside. I used Green Dragons usually and sometimes Lake Fairies on the outside of the "turtle" formation to inflict some hard-hitting melee damage. You only have to worry about using Time Back on these outside units. On the inside, I used some combination of Elves/Hunters with Dragon Arrows to take down large stacks of dragons, Inquisitors with Resurrect to recover losses, or Dryads with Sleep to disable dangerous low-level stacks. This worked extremely well, as I had zero end-of-battle losses for all of the fights.

The one trick to all of this are Red Dragons. If they see a tasty line of two or more "turtled" units, they WILL use their fire breath. What you can do about this is to position your turtle formation to reduce the possible positions from which they can use fire breath, which is usually possible. You can cast Trap in the locations they will land on, which are usually easy to predict. They will land on the closest available spot to use fire breath on two or more units, except when it will hit one of their own troops. You can also use your outside melee units (Green Dragons) to take up some of these spots, use Phantoms to take up more spots, or even use them to Drag some of their units into the line of fire, preventing fire breath from that direction.

Sometimes, they will be able to get off a Fire Breath at your units, you just have to do some resurrecting at the end, and it's no problem. But it's a world of difference from the chaotic dragon battles I had before this tactic, where you're seeing flights of dragons coming in and toasting your units that are dropping like flies all over, and trying your best to stop a stack here or there with Trap or Dragon Arrows, but losing tons of units in the process.

By the way, a final shout-out to Lina's Ice Thorns. I never thought it useful before, and haven't used it much after, but it's saved my hide in many tough dragon fights (including Ultrax).

[Zonc]

By the way, a final shout-out to Lina's Ice Thorns. I never thought it useful before, and haven't used it much after, but it's saved my hide in many tough dragon fights (including Ultrax).

Exaclty! it's just one step behind the Timeback, but together they're like
Timeback>Ice Thorns>>>>>>>>>>any other spirits' ability
This saved tons of my units against Dragons and tough siege battles (Baal etc.)

Still, pack of annoying Red dragons is an issue, but Skeleton Archers with Dragon Arrows kills a full stack of 25 dragons. This is why I find initiative boosters so damn useful - whats better than killing enemy stack before he even had his first unit move.

[Leind]

Another little trick I found useful is that while Blackies are immune to magic, they still can be freezed. When I use Ice snake on an adjacent troop (generally that big stack of red dragons), the blackies take no damage but are slowed down by the freeze effect.

Usually that mean that they can't attack during the first turn, and as I use high initiative units two full turn are enough to do a lot of damage.