Morale of all human army?

[Metathron]

I have archmages, priests, inquisitors, archers and swordsmen. No +1? :confused:

[Keneth]

Marshal's Baton gives +1 to all humans, that's the only item in the game with such a bonus.

[Metathron]

Hmmm...I thought your army gets +1 morale if its made up of the same race? I'm pretty sure I got +1 with my all-dwarven army last game I played.

[Keneth]

It does? I've never used a single-race army, why would you want to do something as ridiculous as that? :P

[Smash]

Because there is few race items which nicely boost your army of one race.

[Metathron]

It does? I've never used a single-race army, why would you want to do something as ridiculous as that? :P

Cause of the morale boost. :-) Or an all demon army (don't like it) or undead army, to avoid negative morale when mixing with other races.

[Keneth]

That's an excuse to drive a personal preference, taking the best out of each race is still the better choice. :P

Although demons have notably the most awesome units of all races, so it's not such a bad choice, especially with Xeona and a class 3 demetrius. :mrgreen:

[TemjinGold]

I have archmages, priests, inquisitors, archers and swordsmen. No +1? :confused:

Seems not to work with Humans or Demons so far. Not sure about other races as I've never tried them.

[travelingoz]

@Met,

Mages, inqs and priests seem not be counted as humans in the game. Your army must be knights, horseman , guardians, swordsman and archers to get the morale bonus.

[Gatts]

Hmmm...I thought your army gets +1 morale if its made up of the same race? I'm pretty sure I got +1 with my all-dwarven army last game I played.

The "same army morale bonus" goes only for elves and dwarves and orcs (see manual) but there are many items that would give you human morale bonus (and some that would give you swordsman, guardsman, horseman, knight morale bonus)

[Keneth]

Actually there's only one item that gives a morale bonus to humans, as I've already mentioned, and there's a few for specific units like knight-type and mage-type. :-P

[Stepsongrapes]

It does? I've never used a single-race army, why would you want to do something as ridiculous as that? :P

The all-elf army is considered one of the most powerful armies in the game (to the point of being broken). Between Anga's Ruby (with 3 female mobs in the race), the Elven Crown, and the auto +1 morale, elves are pretty much can't be topped for damage per leadership point. Dryad's wacky spells are just icing on the cake.

I wouldn't be so quick to knock it, if you've never even tried it.

[Metathron]

Pity there's no +1 for all races.

I agree that an elven army is obviously superior to any other in most circumstances.

How does everyone like an all demon army? I tried it very briefly, but did not like it at all. Guess it doesn't suit my play style, with all the melee units.

[Keneth]

The all-elf army is considered one of the most powerful armies in the game (to the point of being broken). Which is only thanks to Anga's Ruby in all its awesomeness. And the maximum ammount of morale is 4, so Elven Crown + Ruby is the most you can have for your female army, the other two spaces might as well be replaced by something more efficient than elves.

An all-demon army is nice, although archdemons aren't that great for a level 5 unit (gonna look into fixing that once I'm done with the game), might be better to use another group of imps or something. Although personally I think it's best to mix in a different unit like shamans, inqs, dragons, and the like.

[Stepsongrapes]

Which is only thanks to Anga's Ruby in all its awesomeness. And the maximum ammount of morale is 4, so Elven Crown + Ruby is the most you can have for your female army, the other two spaces might as well be replaced by something more efficient than elves.

An all-demon army is nice, although archdemons aren't that great for a level 5 unit (gonna look into fixing that once I'm done with the game), might be better to use another group of imps or something. Although personally I think it's best to mix in a different unit like shamans, inqs, dragons, and the like.

Of course Anga's is a big part of it- elves have the most females. So what's your point?

If you replace the two remaining slots with other elves, they get AT LEAST +2 morale from the crown and the army bonus. Additionally, they would benefit from the Dryad's initiative spell.

For a person that hasn't even bothered to try it, you seem intent on knocking it down summarily.

Obviously, no one army is the best army for all situations, but to say that someone using a single race army is being "ridiculous" is simply wrong.

[Smash]

2x imps, demons, demoness and maybe hellhounds are good army, wife give you nice item which lower leadership cost for them so... :).

[Keneth]

Even if you consider elven archers/hunters with +2 morale and dryads' initiative ability, there are still better ways to complement that army than running a purist version and being satisfied with it just because "it works". I never said that it's a bad option but from my powergaming view it's inefficient and ridiculous, maybe if you add every other elf-buffing item into the equation like the whole elven set and some archer items but the abilities of other units alone make them a lot more desirable than a stack of decent elven troops.

[Smash]

Give example.

[Keneth]

Example for what?

[Stepsongrapes]

Example for what?

I think he's asking for examples of "something more efficient than elves" for the other two spaces.

I find +2 morale elven archers (especially with the Scope, or Scope + Keg) to be very efficient in those two spots. Very few mobs will give you comparable damage/leadership. Plus, their physical damage (with the ability to be Dragon Arrow'ed) complements well the magic damage of the rest of the army.

Again, in a situational game like KB, throwing out a statement that all-race armies are "ridiculous" (especially when you've admitted to never trying them) or even that their always second best means you're over-generalizing and frankly, being plain stubborn.

[Keneth]

That's funny, I could say the same for you. :mrgreen:

It's true that I haven't tried one-race armies per se, that is, I've never added that one last troop though I've had 4 troops of the same race on many occasions, getting a +1 to morale is a decent thing but I'd much rather make use of the special abilities of others like emerald green dragons for mana generation and general tanking, inquisitors for resurrection and their free bless, shamans for the totems and axes, demonesses for charm and teleport, necromancers for lvl5 magic lock and raising undead, ogres for dishing out huge ammounts of damage, and so on.

[Stepsongrapes]

That's funny, I could say the same for you. :mrgreen:

It's true that I haven't tried one-race armies per se, that is, I've never added that one last troop though I've had 4 troops of the same race on many occasions, getting a +1 to morale is a decent thing but I'd much rather make use of the special abilities of others like emerald green dragons for mana generation and general tanking, inquisitors for resurrection and their free bless, shamans for the totems and axes, demonesses for charm and teleport, necromancers for lvl5 magic lock and raising undead, ogres for dishing out huge ammounts of damage, and so on.

Those are all reasonable benefits. But SITUATIONAL. I can think of at least one situation where the eleven army is a good choice: the situation where you simply want to deal as much damage per point of leadership as possible as quickly as possible. For this, the all-elf army is hard to beat. Hell, I'm not sure if there is a single mob that does more damage to a large high defense stack (e.g., dragon, arch-demon, etc.) in one hit than a Dragon Arrowed hunter in an all-elf army.

For me, the determination goes something like this: what can I use in place of a +2 morale elf unit that provides more VALUE, considering that the rest of my army is composed of fast melee hitters? Unlike you, I don't find that to be an easy answer of "shamans are always better!" or "green dragons are always better!"

In other words, your metric of "ridiculous" seems pretty specific. Each one of your examples provides specific benefits, but also has specific trade-offs (e.g. demonesses are going to knock -2 off morale, dragons/shamans/inquisitors/necros aren't going to do anywhere near as much damage, etc.). Certainly the trade-offs are to the point where you can't say that they are hands down better.

The difference as to who is being more "stubborn" is who's statement goes out on a limb more- yours saying that there aren't any situations where an all-race army is a good choice (even under your powergamer criteria) or mine that says that an all-race army isn't a ridiculous choice.

So, do I keep non-elven reserves even when I'm running an all-elf army? Sure. But their they're in reserve to cover specific situations, not because I like leaving my best players on the bench, intentionally.

[Keneth]

So you've provided one situation where the elven army could possibly be the best choice although that could be argued, let's ignore that for a second and say there are one or three such situations. Wouldn't you say that insisting on using that army for all the rest of the situations is ridiculous? I might agree the other way around, using the reserve to form that one-race army on those specific occasions but having a multitude of excellent abilities complement the army better on any other occasion. Sure, you can do it your way, the game is easy enough to do it with any style of play but it doesn't make it the most efficient one. So who's really being stubborn here? :-P

[Stepsongrapes]

So you've provided one situation where the elven army could possibly be the best choice although that could be argued, let's ignore that for a second and say there are one or three such situations. Wouldn't you say that insisting on using that army for all the rest of the situations is ridiculous? I might agree the other way around, using the reserve to form that one-race army on those specific occasions but having a multitude of excellent abilities complement the army better on any other occasion. Sure, you can do it your way, the game is easy enough to do it with any style of play but it doesn't make it the most efficient one. So who's really being stubborn here? :-P

If you think doing as much damage as quickly as possible is a rare situation that happens only once in a blue moon, then yeah we're in agreement.

Strangely in my games, I find that situation occupies a fair amount of my play time. Especially compared to such common situations as: a) wanting to suck mana, b) teleporting a unit, c) throwing down a totem, d) locking their abilities down, etc.

By the way, given the existence of only two reserve slots, it's not like you can haul around unlimited specialists. The more situational something is, the less likely it will be in my roster (e.g., green dragons and necros).

Surprisingly, I find outright killing them before they twitch to be relatively effective, for most mobs.

Again I come back to your initial statement: "I've never used a single-race army, why would you want to do something as ridiculous as that?"

My rebuttal: No, it's not. There's a fair amount of time where it can work damn well.

[Kelteel]

I use two talents to help morale. The first is Tolerance which prevents morale decrease if you have demons or undead in your party. The second one is far more important and that is Onslaught. The reason is that after you set your troups the higher Initiative overrides lower morale and if your initiative is higher than the other side you strike first. Use your most powerful spells against the enemy's most dangerous units. Initiative only lasts for the first round of moves which is why it is so important to use your best weapons. Thin the enemy out and then take them out.

Use Horseman instead of Knights because of their strike zone which is twice as far as Knights. Horseman also have the same hitpoints as Knights though they do about one point less damage on the top and bottom.


... ... :cool: ... ...

[Vilk]

Hi all, nice to see people arguing about tactical choices in this game.

I agree that a one race army isn't really the point, the morale bonus of 1 isn't that big, the right skills can allow some nice mixing, not to mention all the interesting Neutral units.

That said if it could not be the more efficient, it's fun to play sometimes. At this point I tried full dwarves, elves, undead and human.

Let take and example, dwarf army, just one long range and all units are slow, not the more appealing combination but if you get the right items:

Ogre Sandals giving giants +1 speed.
King's Hammer giving -10% Leadership of dwarves.
Mithril Shield giving -20% -10% Leadership of dwarves.
Ale Barrel + Telescopic Sight giving +1 morale +100% attack to archer + +30% chance of Critical Attack to archer.
The dwarf wife giving + 1 morale to dwarves.
If possible (don't remember if a slot is free for it) the Banner of Heroism giving +1 to Initiative for level 1-3


This gives you:

A huge bonus of -30% Leadership for you whole army, this means in fact that it's like if your leadership is 42% higher than it is, that is more than huge.
For the first strike you have the more powerful long range strike particularly with the +42 Leadership bonus and the morale boost, the tripple attack of the Cannoner. And an excellent long range attack for the Alchemist. And the Giant first Earthquake move to 3 forward then Earthquake does a good damages to all units (again the 42% bonus is nice).
Now if you play a fighter and use rage more than magic, get Order magic to 3, your first or second spell will be haste all to transform your slow lazy army as a terribly powerful tornado even even can make huge the first Earthquake.
Still more for a fighter, the initiative skill to +3 give your units those initiatives: Cannoner 9, Giant, Alchemist and Dwarf 8, Miner 7. Not bad for the first strike.

And that dwarf army has some nice tactical possibilities, particularely with a haste all spell:

The special Alchemist attack that get a huge tactical bonus with the haste speed.
The regular giant earthquake is quite powerfull.
The giant suddenly becomes a huge unit with the haste spell and the ogre boots.


That said this army involves various problems like:

A problem is how manage to keep all your units at their max number.
You got a good initiative for all units but no unit will give you the first attack during later battles.
For long battles the lack of more real long range units can be a problem.
No flying units can be quite a problem in some battle area.
It's far to be the best army for gremlins towers fights.

But clearly giving up the -30% leadership bonus for some units and a morale not that high open up much more choices for a more powerful army. But I feel it's a good one race army for a special battle and a more common use will be with this base to replace Miner, Dwarf or both or even Alchemist by some other unit.

[Vilk]

Use Horseman instead of Knights because of their strike zone which is twice as far as Knights. Horseman also have the same hitpoints as Knights though they do about one point less damage on the top and bottom.

Knights get a nice special attack if you train the skill, plus they have a better resistance against physical and fire (30% vs 20%). But well the horsemen better speed and initiative is nice.

That said for a fast close range fighter units using a reserve slot, Griffins are huge because of their speed, initiative but also fly and the Furious skill involving a counter strike at any strike make them very powerful for a units with reserve.

If you add items like Griffin banner -30% Leadership, Wind Wings boot +1 speed to flying units, Golden Feather +1 speed to griffins and/or Banner of Heroism +1 to initiative, this unit is huge if you dedicate it a reserve slot. With all those regalia items the elf wife with no children is a nice choice.

[Kelteel]

Knights get a nice special attack if you train the skill, plus they have a better resistance against physical and fire (30% vs 20%). But well the horsemen better speed and initiative is nice.

That said for a fast close range fighter units using a reserve slot, Griffins are huge because of their speed, initiative but also fly and the Furious skill involving a counter strike at any strike make them very powerful for a units with reserve.

If you add items like Griffin banner -30% Leadership, Wind Wings boot +1 speed to flying units, Golden Feather +1 speed to griffins and/or Banner of Heroism +1 to initiative, this unit is huge if you dedicate it a reserve slot. With all those regalia items the elf wife with no children is a nice choice.

Hey Vilk

Thanks for your reply. I had thought of Griffins for first strike but went for Horseman because of the 130 HPs they have. I am level 8 and have seen very few items of value including Spells at every place I stop and they don't ever restock their inventory(or change it). I have 140,000+ gold and have spent an additional bunch of gold trying units that are pests for fodder and do some damage. Simply no good equipment in any of the first four areas except for a shield and a sword I upgraded to a Runic Sword also a Snake(?) ring.

Knights do better on a retalitory strike but I must have missed the 'training up the skill' part. I will have to go check.


... ... :cool: ... ...

[Vilk]

Hey Vilk

Thanks for your reply. I had thought of Griffins for first strike but went for Horseman because of the 130 HPs they have. I am level 8 and have seen very few items of value including Spells at every place I stop and they don't ever restock their inventory(or change it). I have 140,000+ gold and have spent an additional bunch of gold trying units that are pests for fodder and do some damage. Simply no good equipment in any of the first four areas except for a shield and a sword I upgraded to a Runic Sword also a Snake(?) ring.

Knights do better on a retalitory strike but I must have missed the 'training up the skill' part. I will have to go check.


Kel . ..... .http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/Kelteel/Fav%20Gifs%20and%20Jpegs/icon_bash.gif

Yes the best choice depends a lot of the random you get. In my previous (paused) game I didn't get much griffins and no horsemen so soon in the game and in fact even much later I get only few. In my current I get a nice pack of Griffins very soon but again no horsemen that soon but a horde after solving for the king the problem with dwarves.

With this horde I used them for a nice number of fights, in fact with griffins, both was troops with reserve slot. Throwing them both in the battle and when possible to enemy long range was quite efficient. I couldn't use knights in a same way.

But in all few games I started I used an interesting alternative quite a lot, it's using ghosts and cursed ghosts to the battle, with the zombie wife it's a quite nice combination, one or both get a reserve slot. That limit you troops choice until you learn the skill that cancel morale penalty with undead but with neutral and undead you still get a nice range of choice during a long beginning.

[Kelteel]

Yes the best choice depends a lot of the random you get. In my previous (paused) game I didn't get much griffins and no horsemen so soon in the game and in fact even much later I get only few. In my current I get a nice pack of Griffins very soon but again no horsemen that soon but a horde after solving for the king the problem with dwarves.

With this horde I used them for a nice number of fights, in fact with griffins, both was troops with reserve slot. Throwing them both in the battle and when possible to enemy long range was quite efficient. I couldn't use knights in a same way.

But in all few games I started I used an interesting alternative quite a lot, it's using ghosts and cursed ghosts to the battle, with the zombie wife it's a quite nice combination, one or both get a reserve slot. That limit you troops choice until you learn the skill that cancel morale penalty with undead but with neutral and undead you still get a nice range of choice during a long beginning.

I just ran into a group of all Undead ( I think it was in the Chapel in the Cemetery ) that gave me a new appreciation for the abilities of Necros and Vamps. I suffered huge losses but it was my most satisfactory win (level 10) of the game so far. I had just added a group of Royal Thorns for ranged units and discovered them to be one of the toughest units. They deal more damage than any other ranged unit I have found so far and I used Griffins for my strike force.

I just added my first stack of Royal Snakes. I think I have stacks of troups at every Castle in the first four areas. This is one of those games where money is no problem and I love it.

... ... :cool: ... ...

[Elwin]

On impossible at beginning it is problem :>

[Kelteel]

On impossible at beginning it is problem :>

I am saving my energy for the next Hell level (hopefully) in DIABLO III !!! ... :!: ...


... ... :cool: ... ...

[Vilk]

I just ran into a group of all Undead ( I think it was in the Chapel in the Cemetery ) that gave me a new appreciation for the abilities of Necros and Vamps. I suffered huge losses but it was my most satisfactory win (level 10) of the game so far. I had just added a group of Royal Thorns for ranged units and discovered them to be one of the toughest units. They deal more damage than any other ranged unit I have found so far and I used Griffins for my strike force.

I just added my first stack of Royal Snakes. I think I have stacks of troups at every Castle in the first four areas. This is one of those games where money is no problem and I love it.

... ... :cool: ... ...
I also love Royal Thorns alas you get them too late in general, when fire become a frequent thing they become much less interesting (unlike Ancient Ent) and when you get them in general, the damages have increase and you lost more of them plus at this point their low initiative is more unpleasant.

And a big problem later with all those plant is to not be able to use the resurrect spell on them. Ha well, Royal Thorns are still the more funny, I love how they "laugh stupidly" at each unit pack death. :)