Shaman Karrakh quest chain..?! (Spoilers)

[xxspectrexx]

I was curious I have gotten to the elven lands and met with shaman Karrakh for the second time. I noticed that you can summon the turtle and then kill him or let him go.... if you kill him it says and so ends shaman Karrakh's plot. If you let him go hes says he will not forget you he remembers all.:confused:

My question is if you let him go do you meet up with him later and if you do does he give you a good artifact or help you out? Has anybody followed this to the end?

[Metathron]

I think the only difference is that, if you let him live, you can make use of his shop, which otherwise closes.

[xxspectrexx]

Thanks

[garzahd]

The first time I found him in the elven lands, I tried beating him without the turtle's help. He had 50 INT and was really fond of spamming chain lightning, but he can't cast it if my dryads won't let him :-)

I got "that's how the shaman ended his days" again. I wondered if the turtle does anything else for you later on, if you don't request his help here.

(Later I went back and beat him the normal way, since the turtle gives you ~15 crystals in the process.)

[Direwolf]

Don't forget about the skull artifact that he gives you for not fighting him even before he grants you access to his shop.

So, the benefits would be the skull and the crystals.

DW

[Quikpik]

I got the skull artifact when I killed him too. I think either route you choose, you'll get the artifact.

[Gaius315]

Same here, I got it in loot from the battle. It's probably just the shop. My guess is: with turtle=crystals and easier battle, without turtle=shop but harder battle.

[taltamir]

without turtle you MUST kill him. so no shop...

There are two choices:
1. Use turtle:
option1: you do use the turtle, you get crystals and the battle is easier.
option2: you don't use turtle and the battle is harder.

2. Letting him live (only available if you used turtle):
option1: you kill him, get the skull, XP.
option2: you let him live, get the skull, and he opens a shop.

[Ryastar]

Since his shop almost always contains shamans, the only unit I have any respect for in the orc lineup, I always let him live and take the crytals from "using" the turtle as well as the nifty old skull (+3 int, +10 mana). My (sqrt 2)^2 cents

[Metathron]

I don't know, R., I kinda like the catapult, even if their short range (when not using their special) is annoying. And I've heard praise for veteran orcs, never tried them myself, though...

[Ryastar]

The way I look at things, the only troops really worth using are ones that i actually fear when they are in the opponent's army. The same reasons that make me fear them (ie. concentrate on killing them off asap), are the reasons that make them a worthy addition to my army. Think about it. I don't really think I should give my opinion on every troop, but here is mine on the orc units:

Goblins: annoying only from a minimal loss standpoint due to ranged attack, but very easy to dispose of, no specials at all. Not feared.

Raging goblins: again, only an annoyance, good init and speed, but damage and hp is average at best, iirc. Running is only special. Best saved to kill in 2nd round+. Not feared.

Cataputs: annoyance, but, to a mage, almost even less of one than goblins, because they are absurdly easy to destroy with fire spells (like fire rain, IMHO, the best attack spell in the game), to others, more of an annoyance, due to AOE fire attack ability, but damage from this is fairly low, and can be avoided simply by not grouping together. Not feared

Orcs: too slow, running doesn't help. High hp means will survive a little longer, but can't really do anything with the extra time it gives them. Not feared.

Veteran Orcs: second best unit in orc lineup, but still not amazing. Sure two attacks is nice, but the enemy gets one in the middle of those, and if they don't counter, the orcs only attack once. Dangerous enough to be a kill focus on 2nd round, but not on first, unless no shamans are present. Only somewhat feared.

Ogres: Same problems as orcs, slow and tough, but still easy to kill, if caution is used. Easiest way to deal with them is the trap spell. Only somewhat feared, mostly because of the one combat with ~100 of them, but everything is scary in large enough numbers (however, for some units (like peasants, for example) "large enough numbers" is in excess of 10000, and for peasants, 100000).

Note that my strategy is based around ranged/no retal/dragons/giants (the unit make up changes over time) and minimal losses, and that affects my opinion of all troops. To me, a big melee is inefficient, cause it will cost a lot of troops. I prefer to snipe with ranged units, strike and return with no retal units (strike one turn, return the next for most units, obviously) rather than have big beefy, slow units in the middle of a group of enemies. My giants are just used to block choke points, therefore facing only 1-2 enemy stacks at a time and also for earthquake.

That's my... wow, it seems like more than two cents this time, cause i wrote about 20 times more words. I guess this is my forty cent's worth, then. Payable in cash or credit card.

[Metathron]

I agree with most of what you said. However, I don't think the "fear factor" is always applicable. Sure I will choose to deal with enemy catapults by showering them with fire spells, but that doesn't mean the enemy (when there's a hero present) will do the same to my own catapults. Also, enemy catapults will often fire a regular shot first, rather than using their special right away, etc. So the catapults for me are actually worth more than they're worth as a threat. This goes for some other units as well.

Re: Furious goblins, I actually find them to be quite the threat, more so than their ranged counterpart, because they are incredibly tough and durable, coupled with their good speed and high numbers makes them pretty daunting. So for me, slow was always a must when dealing with them.

[taltamir]

the AI will never use units the same way a player would, so fear is not the only issue. But it is a pretty good analysis.

[Holywhippet]

I don't know, R., I kinda like the catapult, even if their short range (when not using their special) is annoying. And I've heard praise for veteran orcs, never tried them myself, though...

I used veteran orcs in the final battle for my first (and only) playthrough. They are a pretty good melee unit. Basically any enemy that counterattacks them gets hit a second time. Their stats are on par with other high end combat troops so they do a lot of damage in total.

[Madstrike]

I think veteran orcs are a good for the "target" spell, like any other always retaliates unit is. On top of that they have a good leadership/health/damage ratio, so I think that he works quite well for those who like to make full use of "target" like myself. Also worth mentioning that he has got 6 initiative which I think is a nice bonus. He is not amazing like royal griffins(who are best in a all human army) but he can work pretty well with other units, mainly for mages that is(casting target+stone skin ftw in the first turn)

[Vulture]

1. veteran orcs don't always retaliate. The only counter-attack an enemies retaliation. Once.
2. This thread has died more than 2 years ago. Nobody follows it anymore.
3. Between the Royal Griffins and the Veteran Orc there are about 3 or 4 better tanking units and some - depending on setup and talents - are even better than the Royal Griffin in the first place. Demons and Giants for example are better targets for "Target" because of their huge defense bonuses and in the case of the Demon because of the infinite retaliation and extreme damage output against lvl 1-3 units.

[Helios]

I see the dead thread alert, but I've been meaning to ask this: Giants can't be used with Target, can they? They're level 5 creatures, and ineligible, correct? I've seen them mentioned with Target several times on the forums, but they're level 5 for me. Were they upgraded in a patch or something?

[Vulture]

Why would level 5 creatures be exempt from the Target spell as a carrier ?
The level restriction only applies to the enemy ! Opposing level 5 creatures won't choose the troop you cast 'Target' on. Who you cast it on is completely free and without restrictions (except Black Dragons because of their magic immunity).

[Helios]

Wow, thanks! I thought that was a way to nerf the spell so level 5 units weren't too overpowered. I don't know why I thought that. I wish I knew that several games ago!

[Madstrike]

1. veteran orcs don't always retaliate. The only counter-attack an enemies retaliation. Once.
2. This thread has died more than 2 years ago. Nobody follows it anymore.
3. Between the Royal Griffins and the Veteran Orc there are about 3 or 4 better tanking units and some - depending on setup and talents - are even better than the Royal Griffin in the first place. Demons and Giants for example are better targets for "Target" because of their huge defense bonuses and in the case of the Demon because of the infinite retaliation and extreme damage output against lvl 1-3 units.

oh well, I guess u covered it all. I didnt try the veterans as targets, just thought they would work as (furious) guess I was wrong, in that case they dont seem too hot indeed. Never tried giants either, they seem like a good option. I liked using target on paladins though, since they have high ass defense(mastery) and high physical res, not to mention they can take care of their own damages and also heal others, and give others action points. Only downside to using them as targets is they dont have the furious ability, or some other ability that damages loads of enemies(like giants), also their init and speed is quite low, but that is ofc expected otherwise they would be way too powerful. Demons do seem pretty awesome, but I would need those skills from the mind skill tree to make it ok(morale decrease) with my other non demon units. In your opinion what would be best option for target if using the girls army?

[Vulture]

@Madstrike: well first of all, this is the KB:TL forum. There are no paladins as troops.
Secondly, if you're a paladin as a class it is very much recommended to get tolerance, unless of course you're playing with units that don't mind Demons to begin with. Like Animals, Undeads, and some creatures like Cyclopses, Evil Beholders and stuff. I usually play with an Undead/Demon combo + Inquisitors so I don't really need tolerance. I just cope with the deduction of stats for the inquisitors. They're not damage dealers to begin with and if they get targetted I made a mistake in my strategy, so the lower hp shouldn't matter.

By girls' army I suppose you mean Lake Fairies, Sprites, Dryads, Demonesses and stuff. Firstly I'd never go with a 5/5 girls army but with a 3/5 (S, LF, D), added Demons and Skeleton Archers and sometimes swap Dryads with Inquisitors or Black/Green Dragons. I never saw the point in 3 or more melee units that have no tanking features. 2 melee strikers are enough, plus an offensively gifted tank unit, one supporter and a ranged damage dealer.

To answer your question, although it does answer itsself after my recommendations: the Demons of course ^^

[Madstrike]

Ok, cheers for all the info, yeah I was currently playing AP, thats why I was using paladins, no wonder I never saw them in KBTL duh.... yeah I was thinking about getting the sprites/lf/d plus another 2 units U said demons are best, but is it so even with their low init/speed compared to the girls(with the ruby they are blazing fast), I was maybe thinking of using green emerald dragons as tanks for target, they seem like a good option, I rly like his mana sucking ability since Im a mage, he is also a good target for phantom since it can go for very cheap with the mana drain...

Anyway considering I go with ur setup of sprites/lf/d + demons, what would u reckon as last unit, ranged damage dealer unit or a support unit like inquisitors? or maybe even shamans?

[Vulture]

Firstly I'd never go with a 5/5 girls army but with a 3/5 (S, LF, D), added Demons and Skeleton Archers and sometimes swap Dryads with Inquisitors or Black/Green Dragons.

There you have your answer already. Combined with Unholy Commander and Dragon Arrows the Skeleton Archers are among the most brutal raw damage you will find in this game, being capable of easily chopping down a 15+ stack of Black Dragons in one shot.

As for the Initiative problem you have: it's vital to specc Onslaught in the might tree early on. The battle is won or lost in the first (two) round(s). Additional rounds are a matter of form and loss preservation. And since the Demons are your tanks to begin with you may even pause all your units and let them move first (which they will, even before Dragons, provided you have Onslaught). But this strategy also greatly depends on the enemy's setup. If you're facing a wizard type hero with more than two ranged units in his setup you should of course take precautions and pick a more suitable strategy and setup.

P.S: Don't forget that the girls setup isn't complete just with Anga's Ruby. It greatly (!) depends on two additional items damage wise. One being the poison dagger, adding +1 poison damage to their damage as well as Isshara's Whip, adding +1 fire damage to it. With the Sprites and Lake Fairies that have 1-2 and 1-3 (no guarantee on the numbers; just cited from memory) base damage you will end up with 3-4 and 3-5 damage which effectively triples their minimum and doubles their maximum damage output (except with magic/fire/poison resistant/immune opponents). The greatness of those 2 units comes from these items and nothing else.

[Madstrike]

oh, very good points u got there, I thought the girls would do well with just the ruby, I dont have those other items u mentioned. Do you reckon they are weak otherwise? Its a shame cuz I have a place to get demons(in arlania lol) and I got sacrifice so no problems. Would u rather have a different setup in this case?
ps: I just realized those weapons also add the bonus to the archers which is just icing in the cake(or do they not?)

[Vulture]

Yes, it does ice the cake. That makes it even more awesome. You should use the savegame scanner (search for a link to it in the forum) and check where the poison dagger is (or if there is one) in your game. Isshara's Whip is a quest reward and everyone gets it in every game.

To answer your question: I wouldn't recommend using Sprites and Lake Fairies without these two items. Without these items the only quality of those is their speed and initiative, which of course is nice, don't get me wrong, but they're supposed to be your main strikers and they just can't be it without those two weapons.

As for the other question: almost any "glass cannon" striker (ranged or melee alike) will go along perfectly with Demons as a tanking unit. But since I have no idea where you are, what level you're at, what class you play and what talents you chose I can't give you an honest and suitable recommendation about what to replace the girls with. I'd say: try it, play around with certain setups until you find one that suits your level, class, talents and playstyle.

[Madstrike]

Im a mage, lvl 18, in the elven lands atm. I have level 2 higher magic, chaos magic and distortion magic are maxed. I do like the demons as tanking units, the only downside however to them is that I cannot heal them or res with inquisitors, only way to res them is with sacrifice, which I dont fancy doing every game...(also I dont have the ressurect spell atm, I know...).

Ive been using royal snakes throughout the game since Im married with the frog lady. I was using regular griffins(didnt find any royal griffins) as tanks for "target" before the demons, and inquisitors to res them, so royal snakes/griffins/inquisitors as a staple, plus I was using a mix of ranged attackers, usually evil beholders and cannoneers, but those last 2 are not that hot atm for me, maybe I should change one of them for shamans(those would also come in handy to heal the demons[I dont know if they can heal them though] I suppose, could change those with inquisitors as well), and maybe get skellie archers also, but they rly need dragon arrows otherwise they are meh...

ps: I took a look with the scanner, and it seems I dont have that dagger in my game, either that or it has a very different name, cuz everything has a different name, I mean whats smile skul spell? whats a wing wind? lol....

I have been using giants as of now for target, they work quite well with shamans, and inquisitors(just in case), also using skeli archers and royal snakes. It feels smooth now, but I might try emerald green dragons later.

[ShuiMienLung]

I was using regular griffins (didnt find any royal griffins)

Royal Griffins were added for Armored Princess; they do not exist in the game you're playing.

[Vulture]

At lvl 18 you should have gotten The Reaper eternities ago to use Time Back to restore your Demons' casualties instead of sacrifice.

Turn 1 -> activate run and move Demons across the field one tile shorter than they can, drop pentagram. Use ranged to kill enemy ranged, cast target if neccessary. Bring in your melee strikers half the way and pause them. Enemy moves and eats infinite retaliation from the Demons. Your strikers move last and finish off what's still standing.

Turn 2 -> Drop the Demons' minions and hope they're Demons, too. Pause any of your troops so you have the last action in this turn. Your strikers kill stuff, you cast whatever you want. Enemy moves and eats retaliation yet again. It's your paused unit's turn now: cast Time Back on Demons. Demons are fully restored. What's left on the battlefield should be so decimated now that nothing is a threat to you anymore.

Result: no losses, and you have surplus rage from killing leftovers which you can take to the next combat. See also: chain fighting (search function).

[Madstrike]

I understand the chain fighting concept, u also have good points on ur strat, however, I dont have timeback for level 4 creatures yet(its level 3), so I am stuck with sacrifice as the only way to heal demons, that is why Ill keep them at bay for the moment, Ive been using giants to great effect, and in some cases green dragons. Also in your no losses strat I dont see how u deal with creatures that deal damage to everyone in the field like giants(for that I usually have to cast battle cry and dragon arrows on the skellie archers, but if there is more than one giants stack it gets tricky, especially if there are also other ranged units on the enemy's side).

[Vulture]

Also in your no losses strat I dont see how u deal with creatures that deal damage to everyone in the field like giants.

Accurate observation. There is no strategy against that except pure violence. And if that fails (which it sometimes does) you will have to ress and sac up.

In order to get your Time Back up you have to use it constantly to level the Reaper and get Time Back options upon level-up. In my games I go and get the Reaper as soon as I can (mostly around lvl 7-10-ish) and abuse the shit out of him until I get Time Back. Then I abuse the shit out of that so that on average I have lvl 5 Time Back at 2 rounds rest for 20 rage by (character)lvl 17 at the latest. Vital for my playstyle, especially on impossible ^^

[Helios]

Thanks to Vulture for all the information here. I kept wondering why people recommended the poison dagger and Isshara's whip for use with LF and Sprites, because I didn't realize their magic damage or archers (!) were affected in such ways. Knowing this will help a great deal as I go for some runs with just one race (elves, humans, etc.) in the future.

And big wow that you are able to get the Reaper on level 7-10! That must have taken some serious kiting! I thought I was doing great to get him at level 13 this time around.

Vulture, what do you think of taking leadership at every level-up for every class? I am nearly done breezing through Impossible with the Paladin doing so, so obviously the Warrior could do the same, but do you think it would give the Mage enough leadership to breeze through the game, or would the missed stat points weaken his already weak Atk and Def? I haven't tried it with him yet on this difficulty.

Edit: I still don't feel like I have a very good strategy for the Mage. I tried him as a pure damage dealer at the cost of leadership and army stats just to go for a different playing experience than with the other classes, but that strategy seemed quite slow and inferior to concentrating use of Distortion spells with the other classes. Would it ever be practical to play as a sort of Mage/Warrior, using his Higher Magic for multiple spell book usage, but equipping him to enhance his army rather than Int? My previous attempts at maxing his Int at all costs ended with pathetic single digit Atk and Def on level 30.

[Vulture]

No problem, you're very welcome.

As for the Reaper quest. It's easy if you hand-pick the game you want to play by applying the savegame scanner beforehand and relentlessly abuse the KI of adventure map enemies. Plus I bribe Lucky James instead of killing him. Costs me a fortune but I get to the Taron Mines without a single fight (except the turtle). With all the items, spells and troops available that I need and all the adventure map treasure until the end of Upper Hadar you have so much leadership and such great stats and leveled up spells that it's really not an art to break Bogacho Castle's siege at this early level.

As for the mage: if you're playing above "hard" you won't get far with a "glass cannon" aka an int-boosted Chaos spell hurling one-shot mage. So you are doing alright by trying to boost his Atk (Def is neglectable entirely) and ldr as well. But don't go extreme and try to play your mage like a warrior. Where you can: use pure spellforce. Where you can't, play tactically smart.

As for the leadership: you can also search the forum for this. There is math on every choice you have to make on levelups. I haven't played in a while and I don't want to search for you right now so bear with me if I'm wrong here:
Basically it's like this: leadership options are limited. You don't get more than so many options but before level 7 (iirc) leadership is inferior to any stat except Defense. And afaik (as a Warrior) leadership under a certain amount I cannot recall is inferior to Atk. So it's definitely not advised to pick leadership each time, especially not if Atk is the other option. I'm afraid I have to leave you to yourself and the search function on this one.

[Madstrike]

Youve been rly helpful vulture, I started using that tip u gave me with the timeback on end of turn 2 on the targeted unit(I didnt have it for lvl 4 creatures) so I decided to give a crack with griffins, and it worked like a charm.
Now I finally got ress spell(thought was never gonna get it) so I might get back with demons.
Im just having problems with black dragons atm, because I can never get that first hit with my skellie archers(dragon arrows) unless I battle cry my team, which means I have to battle cry+ dragon arrow in the first turn, so no target spell. Either that or I have to put a couple of traps on the field. I have onslaught level 1, but Im out of might runes, so I cant get that route for dark commander just to get my archers initiative higher...
Also as u prolly already know, the girls are rly weak against the dragons(specially the black one) so I was thinking about changing the strikers for something else against them, royal snakes always comes mind on those moments, do u have any other suggestions to replace the girls when facing many stacks of black/red dragons?

[Helios]

Vulture, thanks for even more info. Thanks very helpful regarding the Mage. I suppose as a Mage, one should have several different setups of equipment ready for when fire rain could do the job, or when brute force is needed. And it does seem pretty negligible to consider taking leadership before level 8 or so. By the end of the game, if taken four times in those first eight levels, it would be a tiny amount of difference in army composition. I'll start skipping it on my next playthrough. If I kite all the way to the Reaper, it surely wouldn't matter at all to skip leadership that early with all the banners you'd pick up before fighting a battle! (And I had a topic on leadership mentioned to me before, I just wondered what you as a veteran who obviously has a great grasp of the game thought. Not too many players around the forums these days!)

Regarding the Poison Dagger and Whip: do they affect all units, or are their bonuses only added to certain units? I already sold both in my game and have been rocking with 2 Dragon Slayer Swords and the Gladiator Sword. I never would have guessed those +1 damage weapons could be so useful.
--Edit: from reading the forum, it appears that these weapons do work on every unit. Very interesting!

And it never really occurred to me until now, but Dragon Arrows is a pretty good spell to cast on any kind of archer even if the target isn't a dragon, isn't it? It's like a Ghost Blade attached to an Atk stat rather than an Int stat, isn't it?

(PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread.)

[Madstrike]

Regarding the Poison Dagger and Whip: do they affect all units, or are their bonuses only added to certain units? I already sold both in my game and have been rocking with 2 Dragon Slayer Swords and the Gladiator Sword. I never would have guessed those +1 damage weapons could be so useful.
--Edit: from reading the forum, it appears that these weapons do work on every unit. Very interesting!

And it never really occurred to me until now, but Dragon Arrows is a pretty good spell to cast on any kind of archer even if the target isn't a dragon, isn't it? It's like a Ghost Blade attached to an Atk stat rather than an Int stat, isn't it?

(PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread.)

dragon arrows work best with skellie archers who have very low attack, but very high leadership/damage ratio, if u take a look on the other archers they have a not so hot leadership/damage ratio, mostly because they have other things like some nice abilities(sniper) and have attack a lot higher, I mean it doesnt make much sense dragon arrowing hunters(they already have high attack). On the unit u wanna kill it doesnt matter if its a dragon(the name comes just because dragons have very high defense but the dragon arrows break through that high defense and also resistance).
On the poison dagger/ whip combo, they also work best with creatures that have high leadership/damage ratio, so the girls are the perfect target(consider the lake faerie for example, it deals 1-2 damage, so if a weapon adds another 1 of damage it means 50% increase in damage!) plus if u mass bless them u got yourself some brutal damage dealers.

[Vulture]

@Madstrike: I know your problem. Read my postings about the "Cruel Haas" battle and the Dragons (especially Blacks) in it. I can tell you so much:
The girls suck against them ofc, their damage is 100% magical and with dagger and whip that doesn't change either. But a warrior with sick atk and a "Dragon Slayer" spell on them even THAT is negated. But it requires sick gear if you want to pull that off on higher difficulties. So you need other damage dealers.
Well, you can pick from a wide range of choices:
Even if they usually suck but Knights perform excellently against Dragons. "Valor" and "Dragon Slayer" are attributes just made for those ^^ And you can even cast Dragon Slayer on them, to boot and as far as I remember, the two stack with each other.
The next option would be Demons. They also take less fire damage and the infinite retaliation is double awesome. My choice #1 against Dragons. Always. Buffed with damage enhancement spells they just plain chop down Dragon stacks and can withstand multiple stacks pummeling them. With Xeona as a wife and the resulting +1 morale that only does more service.
Other good options include Giants (can't argue against 50 base defense), Emerald Green Dragons and Bowmen (not as awesome as Skellies but with Dragon Arrows and/or Dragon Slayer they are devastating, too, especially if both are in the team ^^).

The key against Dragons, tho, is not necessarily the setup. It's the strategy. A good cheese I always use is to just barr your ranged and support behind Ice Thorns ! Make sure you don't leave a spot free. This will keep Dragons from attacking them instead of your tank(s) and you can fire away as much as you want. But be aware of Red Dragons as they will just do their breath that goes over several tiles and still damage your support/ranged. So take out those first (before the blacks).
You can find more counter-Dragon strategy in the forum if you search. There is tons of stuff. More than I can possibly sum up.

@Helios: Firstly, yes, Dragon Arrows works perfectly fine against any highlvl unit. The reason is the way it works. It negates the opponents surplus Defense that exceeds your unit's Atk. That means the lower your unit's Atk and the higher the opponents Def, the bigger the DIFFERENCE in damage numbers will be (not the bigger the max dmg will be) with or without DA. So a unit like, say, Giants, Ancient Ents or Dragons with 50+ Defense will lose the MOST defense of all. Therefore the effect is the greatest with them, resulting in the biggest damage and biggest lulz :>

Secondly, yes, the weapons work with all units. But a unit that has, say, 30-38 damage base, a +1 or +2 won't make that much of a difference as they are still balanced with a tad more. Unit's with 1-2 or 1-3 damage however become over the top brutal with them. Math :>
Thirdly: you sold the dagger and the whip ? OMG, I know a few people - especially from back when there was no savegame scanner - that would take great delight in shoving their boots up your butt for that xD

I'm sorry if I mostly just repeated what Madstrike told you in the post above mine but it's pretty much all there is to it.

[Helios]

Thanks to both of you for the explanations! Now I see why I thought Dragon Arrows was so great on my last Mage playthrough when I had 9 Atk at the end and shot just about anything with them for higher damage than a normal shot.

@Vulture and the boot up the butt: yeah, I feel that way now! But (ha!) I've used the girls on every other playthrough and switched it up this time to sending endless Green Dragon Phantoms into the enemy lines with the Archmage shield talent on them, along with Royal Thorns, Dryads, and Inquisitors--I throw in Knights every once in awhile for tons of dragons but the dragons have been a joke for me with the two Dragon Slayer Swords--Royal Thorns just bite the stack in retaliation and kill them all, and then I bite the other stack who thought the RT were a yummy target, repeat next turn on the retal only, then Time Back. I was afraid the RT would be useless with their weakness to fire against the dragons, and the AI heroes/gremlins love hitting them with fire spells, but the Blackthorn Crown + Time Back is a lifesaver--obviously this is situational due to the godliness of the items I got on this game, so I don't think they would be very good against dragons in other situations a la Madstrike's.

Of the girls, I'm only using Dryads this time, since they are so useful in nearly every situation (I got the Blackthorn Crown + early stack of Royal Thorns and have been stunned at the damage I've been getting out of expendable thorns). I can't imagine what the damage would be like out of that cannon fodder if I hadn't sold those weapons!!

Since I know now how to edit the game, maybe I should just put them back for sale at some location since I've usually got a massive stack or two of expendable thorns in every battle. :p

And thanks for all the tips. I read the forum extensively last night and found some neat suggestions for wreaking havoc with Knights (Teleport spell + Circle Attack + Time Back), and some ideas for a Mage. I've seen it argued both ways for a Mage nuker on Impossible to be viable (I think these people must have given themselves insane items to make it work in every situation) and a Mage focused on 2x Distortion and Order spells both being the better of the two focuses, but perhaps there's a good blend to the two types, or that each one works depending on troop selection.

And I've got a possibly crazy idea to try and play games with only using a specific race by using the editor from the start that I would love to hear either of your input on which class to choose for each race. But I'll go put that post in the class forum and not clog this one up with it.

[Madstrike]

Vulture, again thanks for the tips. Ive read the thread of "cruel haas" u have posted, very good and variety of opinions there.
Onto the dragons thing, I managed to grab the whip, but I dont have the dagger in my game as I already have scanned, Im basically playing the girls without it, and they suck against black dragons.

Im even considering dumping them and going for another set up, ive found rather odd items:2x batons(humans have no powerhouse like the paladin in AP imho), elven crown, telecopic sight, how about this: elves+hunters(also got silver horn:confused:) with a combination of 2x human units(dunno) +demons???(maybe fit skellie archers somewhere in here?). Also might have to keep with griffins or somethingelse as my timenback is rly underdeveloped as it is. Basically my weapons suck(Im using the dragon slayer sword, other than that I have the runic sword), I have no artifacts other than the telecopic sight, and the eye of the storm, lots of regalia:confused:(think that would make me marry the elf girl for the slots, but she is not rly appealing), and the rest is not worth mentioning.

My attack is subpar(9 with the whip, or 12 with dragonslayer), defense is ok(14), and int not high enough to nuke down some big stacks..., also lvl 23, 15k ldr.

My problem isnt so much killing the black dragons(royal snakes make short work of them if I need to), its just killing them before they do anything, because even if I put my griffins(or whatever target) on the middle of the field or even right in front of them,they will ignore them and go for other units(they love faeries and archers), thats why Im placing traps lately.Problems appear when there are multiple stacks of them along with ranged units.
Ill be able to max onslaught once I trade my map with the queen but I wont be able to put points into dark commander past lvl1 for now(so no init boost for the skellie archers), I do have the regalia that boosts 1-3 units +1 init, and I have the mask of pandemonic, which I havent upgraded(-1 init to enemy) yet(that will do the trick for the first turn).

ps: I just realized I have cloak of shadows+vampire ring is in a shop, should I use them(or ancient vampires at least)?

[Vulture]

@Helios: you see. In the end, everything comes down to playstyle, given items and availability of troops as I said right in the beginning ;)

@madstrike: hence my recommendation to use Icy Thorns. The thing is: the AI always attack the target they can
a) reach with the fewest number of turns
b) take down the biggest percentage of total leadership with.
c) reduce the most incoming damage with.


That will always come down to level 1 units, or the lowest levelled unit you have in your setup because they have the least defense and health, thus ending up dropping fast. That means Skeleton Archers, Lake Fairies, Sprites, Dryads, Bowmen and so on. Therefore: put everything but your tanks behind ice thorns (except maybe a durable melee striker unit but place that out of reach of the Black Dragon) and make sure, with all force, that you have ******* FIRST initiative. It's vital and there is no way around it.

About Ancient Vampires: they are my #1 choice as secondary tanks or as primary tanks on icy grounds (Demon gets defense penalty). And of course my tanks when I play undead only (which I never play out because I always end up adding Inquisitors, Demons, Shamans, Demonesses or Bowmen occasionally in the end). With enough Atk they beome not only killing machines but also sustain themselves easily through the Life Drain ability in bat form so that you can use Time Back for other things.
Absolutely perfect would be if your game had Ancient Vampires and Ancient Vampire Bats because you can have both. You just can't transform them on the battlefield for they will be out of control because you'll have twice your leadership in Ancient Vampires or Bats respectively.
But beware that Life Drain ofc only works against the living. Undeads and plants excluded. And also beware of no retaliation units for retaliation is a big factor in sustaining numbers through Life Drain. I've seen a huge stack of Bats chopped down by a stack of archers, a 2,500 stack of royal snakes and 3k Scoffer Imps in one turn.
The ring is nice but there's usually better stuff than that. iirc it just pushes their max hp which is nice but not what you need. Distance and strategy are your defense and health bar. Not defence and health.

[Madstrike]

hmm, I might try the ancient vampires and see what happens, they seem like decent strikers, only problem I see is their low speed, in bat form they have great speed and init but not so hot damage, would it be better using them than royal snakes?(these are my favorites to pwn some black/red dragons other than the skellie archers). Also considering I have 2 batons, do u think its a good idea to get the elf wife(more regalia slots) and use some human unit. Im having a hard time considering human units, they all look subpar(the strikers dont do much damage) so I dont see how they would rly benefit from the +2 morale. Knights are good, but they are way too slow... maybe horseman?

[Vulture]

Knights are only an option if you can afford to teleport them. The Baton is for ldr anyway. The +1 human morale might as well not be on it and nobody would care.

I can't tell you if Royal Snakes will work better for you than Ancient Vampires. Try it and see for yourself.
Don't worry about the speed, you'll never move them in human form anyway. Transforming into Bat form costs no Action Points. And whoever told you the Bat damage isn't good is probably doing it wrong ^^

[Helios]

@ Vulture: In your Cruel Haas topic as a Paladin was that on Impossible? I just wondered since you mention you made it to level 29 in that thread with only one level of learning. I've been trying to pin down how much EXP boost was needed to hit 30 on Impossible. Do you recall if you ever used the Tactics Treatise in that playthrough or other boosts like KotL?

Edit: I've been looking at the screenshots of the high score thread to try and see how much skill investment is needed for EXP boosts, and am shocked at the stats some of these people had! A Mage with 50 Int and 22,000 Leadership!? I see mostly how he got the Int, but I have no idea how he also got Leadership that high. I checked and it was on Impossible. Amazing. And I thought I had a godly item setup this time through!

[msp]

Here you're talking about beating Cruel Haas, right? Why aren't dragons used against him? "If you can't beat them, join them", right?

[Vulture]

@Helios: nevermind the highscore thread. 95% of the posts there are fake. Stuff that is completely impossible. The screens are real, the games were not. There are enough mods that can change anything you want.
The Cruel Haas battle was back in the days when I started. I think it was on hard. I mean it was easy to win ofc but I play no loss campaigns only and I hate spending more than 15 turns to recover. That's what my problem was. I felt like I had a fundamental problem.
I never use exp boosters. Only when I find one early on and have an unused slot. In that particular game I definitely did not use one.

@msp: Dragons are 50%-80% resistant to fire and/or magic. Using dragons against them is thus utterly futile. With the exception of Emerald Greens. But then again, an AI dragon will NEVER go for your Emerald Greens and since their raw damage is pretty unamazing there's no point in bringing some to that battle. This is arguable tho. I don't claim absolute truth on that.

[Madstrike]

I know you reckon I should try ancient vampires, but is there a reason to use those over regular vampires? I mean the ldr per damage is better on the lower ranked vampires, only advantage in bat mode in favor of ancient is that it has slightly better speed and init(and attack). Also using them should I use them always in bat mode, or sometimes in vampire mode, then switch to bat after the battle is almost finished to resurrect some troops?

So what did u use in the end in that Haas battle, I know you were positive on LF, sprites, skellie archers, and demons, but were uncertain on the fifth unit. I could maybe think of a few of possibilities: knights(loads of dragons), ancient vampires, royal snakes, inquisitors, archidemons.

[Vulture]

Why does everybody keep saying Archidemons ? It's Archdemons.

I don't remember what I ended up using but I definitely didn't use Sprites/Lake Fairies and Dryads. I probably got Ancient Vamps and Knights as I always do for the final fight. And I think Emeralds.

As for your question why AVs are better than Vs: you said it yourself. Speed, init (this is vital, with Zombie Rina as a wife and Dark Commander they always go before everything else incl. Black Dragons), Atk plus hp and Defense. You don't really need more reasons to prefer one unit over the other.
As for the usage: that depends on if you use them as tanks or as damage dealers.
If you use them as tanks it's pretty clear. You turn them into bats right away, bring them in and turn them back into humanoid form (will end your turn) and cast a protective spell on them. Or Target if you need. Enemy bashes them in humanoid form, one eats retaliation. In the next round you pause them, take the second beating and then turn them into bats and attack the opponent against who you can do the most damage (=most hp leeched). By the end of this turn your damage dealers should have diminished the opponent enough so you can remain in Bat form. In regular fights with a Warrior you can actually always keep them in Bat form because your Atk is so high that their damage will always restore them. In case of emergency you can still Phantom them and watch the idiots bash the Phantom AVs.

If you use them as damage dealers you just move them in humanoid form after the tank and do the high init strategy where you pause them so they act as the last in the turn. Kill something. In the beginning of the next turn they're first to strike again. Practically a double strike without the enemy having a chance to counteract.

[Helios]

@ Vulture: I finished my Impossible Paladin last night and was looking in awe at that high score thread and figured people must have heavily edited things. I guess I should feel pretty good about my final score and stats. I could have saved 2 days if I hadn't wanted my Fandor's Map for Violetta and forgot one of the Obelisks back in Ellinia, and I charged through the game to get to Karador ASAP because his castle sold the Pain Skull and the promotion from King Mark made the Gladiator Sword for sale. I beat Karador on level 19, which was my greatest achievement in this game yet, and wouldn't have had a chance without 3 levels of Sacred Anger. I'll miss that when I'm not a Paladin! My biggest shock in looking at my final stats is that my Paladin had almost 100 more total runes than any Mage or Warrior I've played. My stats:

Score: 1537, 20 Days
Stats: 27,659 Leadership (I took it at every level and was lucky enough with some of the Knight Set items, Banner of True Belief, and a Baton; 31 Atk 28 Def 23 Int 76 Rage 92 Mana.

On topic: since we've been talking about the benefits of the Poison Dagger and Isshara's Whip, what is your opinion of the Battle Axe (+20% damage to users of cold steel weapons)? I was going through the fan manual and saw it, which has never been in one of my games, and I hadn't heard of it on the forums before.

It works on: Barbarian, Berserker, Black Knight, Demon, Dwarf, Swordsman, Guardsman, Knight, Orc, Veteran Orc, Pirate, Seadog, Skeleton, Vampire, Ancient Vampire, Werewolf Elf, Robber, Marauder, Peasant, Miner, Furious Goblin.

Suddenly, I think my all Dwarf run will make those relatively low leadership and damage Miners and Dwarves into better units!

And on other percentage based equipment: what is your opinion on the Steam Armor, Drill, and Silver Rapier? I haven't been impressed by any of them in when I've equipped them. The speed and initiative penalties seem too high for use of the first two.

Though I found a list of units that benefit for the first two:

Steam Armor: all humans; elves besides werewolf-elf and ents; Undead besides Vampire-bat and Bone Dragon; Orcs besides Ogre; Dwarves besides Giant; Demons besides Demon; and Barbarian, Berserk, Pirate, Sea Dog.

Drill: Archdemon, Barbarian, Berserk, Black Knight, Knight, Demoness, Dwarf, Ent, Ancient Ent, Swordsman, Guardsman, Peasant, Robber, Marauder, Horseman, Werewolf Elf, Miner, Giant, Goblin, Furious Goblin, Orc, Veteran Orc, Skeleton, Zombie, Decaying Zombie, Ghost, Cursed Ghost, Vampire, Ancient Vampire, Ogre, Shaman, Pirate, Sea Dog

PS: I found a tidbit on the forum that I didn't know of (maybe you guys already do): using the Tree of Life Sprout before delivering it to the Tree of Death gives a permanent +1 Int boost. I wonder how many other quest items have hidden bonuses like that? I know using Velisar's staff gives 1 Mind rune, but I haven't tried using all the quest items. The only other "hidden" boost I can think of is the +1 Int for using the right magic words on the Zombie Miller if you are a Warrior or Paladin.

[Vulture]

On topic: since we've been talking about the benefits of the Poison Dagger and Isshara's Whip, what is your opinion of the Battle Axe (+20% damage to users of cold steel weapons)? I was going through the fan manual and saw it, which has never been in one of my games, and I hadn't heard of it on the forums before.


Plain simple. It's a weapon and it gives not a single point of Atk or ldr --> complete rubbish. Unless you use at least 4 cold steel melees, which I'd never even try to do you won't have that much fun with it. Of the units it works with I'd only ever use Demons and (Ancient) Vampires but since their purpose is to be in bat form and restore losses it won't work with them, either.

About the other items: yes, if you use heavy physical melee (which I never do) only and those have enough speed: knock yourself out. My playstyle heavily relies on speed, damage avoidance, tactics and stuff so they're usually out of the question. +X Atk to all units > % damage to a certain type.
The Silver Rapier is an option for Karador if your Atk is high.

So the ranking would be:
1. Rapier (situational
2. Armor (shit and limited to units)
3. Drill (utter crap because some of the best melees don't even use physical dmg... and you can use a +X Atk in this slot instead)

Unless you definitely plan on using certain unit types only and exclusively just because you have an item for it, Armor and Drill are sub-par imho. If you do and can somehow pull it off throughout the game: have fun. You should see some funny numbers but it would be way too much hassle for me to take care of 4 or even 5 melees that take damage (loss preservation etc), and having to not use my favorite ones.

[Helios]

Thanks. I had the same conclusions about the steam armor and drill the first time I played--the negatives outweigh the positives. Losing speed or initiative can be killer (speed less so if the units all have decent speed), but I think the loss of speed would cripple entire races, like the Dwarves--ironic since they make the junk. It does make more sense to prioritize on weapons that help every unit in the army, rather than only a few. I'm shocked to see the drill benefits a ranged unit: Goblins. I wouldn't have guessed that. An all Orc team might actually be able to use the drill.

The only way I'll end up using the battle axe is if I do indeed make it all the way through the list of different playthroughs to get to the masochistic (and maybe impossible) all melee human "Outcast" group, since they'd all benefit from it.

I guess my Atk hasn't ever been high enough for the Silver Rapier to appear to have a different effect than my +Atk weapons.

Thanks for the opinions.

[Madstrike]

Guys I know this is prolly not the right place to post this, but I got to haas, and been wondering on the army setup, I have so far: Knights/Ancient Vamps/Demons/EGD, and Ive been wondering what to get as the last unit. Haas stacks are: 3x BlackD, 2x EGD, 1x RedD, 1x Bone Dragons, 2x Giants, 1x Cyclops. So a lot of dragons, I got 2 dragon slayer swords and 1 rahhas shield.

I got Mirabella, so I could use the 2 dragon slayer swords, and 2 batons, so I was maybe thinking of using sea dogs (Atk=56 with her) as my last unit, but not sure on them since they have no resistances whatsoever and very low def. Was also wondering about Ghosts, I got lvl 3 Dark Commander, Im just not sure about they getting out of control os maybe they are not tough enough? Other choices are Shamans(archmage is at lvl 3, so good ldr/dmg/hp ratio), Horsemen, or any other thing u guys could come up with, except regular vampires are not available.

Dark Commander lvl 3, Onslaught lvl 3, tolerance lvl2, lvl 29, 22.6k ldr, my timeback is pretty poor though(rest 4, lvl1-5), stats are: 20 atk, 24 def, 17 int. Any ideas?

ps:im having problems getting no losses because I always end up with giants in the end, who keep earthquaking and damaging my troops so I cant ress my troops before they start earthquaking, Im thinking of maybe going with black dragons and shamans instead of something there so I can easy up on the ressurection count( but the lvl 4/3 units are the most damaging so its hard to take them out, dunno what to do rly). What I do is cast battle cry, then dragon slayer, after that I cast some dispels, res, heal(EGD), my timeback is rly not a reliable source since it has that rest 4 delay(emergencies only)... I was even thinking of using inquisitors(wonder if they will be picked on xD, maybe use that with timeback?) for mana generating purposes, then keep the last cyclop busy with a totem or a demon summon? The sea dogs are rly good, but they have some shitty defense and die like flies, wish their special would work like with the knights, they would take out 2 stacks in the first turn.

[Vulture]

You could've put that into the Haas thread really...

Anywho, Shamans are made for this fight, so are Emerald Greens. Healing Totems heal Dragons. With 2 Batons, 2 Dragon Slayer's Swords and Rahha's shield you should beat the fight with no losses with a single stack of thorns if you ask me ><
I'm exaggerating of course. Get a Mass Dragon Slayer out if you can and you should thrash him.
As for Giants there is no other solution that to kill them asap. You have good enough troops (resistance-wise, defense-wise and Health-wise) to withstand damage from the Dragons and if you're not lined up stupidly the damage should focus on two or three of your units so it is for the best if you kill them first. If you can't, you can't. You'll just have to eat the earthquake/s, then.

Also I cannot believe that you have no regular Vampires. That is impossible. In every Carved Coffin there is one at least and they are in every graveyard in the game. At least 20 of those in all of Endoria. And in the Land Of The Dead there inevitably are some for sale (it's hihgly unlikely that there aren't ANY). Also with all the ghost ships and Undead castles (Necrocom, Karmag etc.) there just can't be no Vampires or Vampire Bats. Check the savegame scanner, seriously. There you have your 5th unit if you're unhappy with Shamans (although I can't imagine how one can be unhappy with a 15-stack of Black Dragons attacking a Totem Of Death, wasting their turn xD).

[msp]

With 2 Batons, 2 Dragon Slayer's Swords and Rahha's shield you should beat the fight with no losses with a single stack of thorns if you ask me ><


That would be too much in asingle game, there are games without batons, but two batons...

[Madstrike]

You could've put that into the Haas thread really...

Anywho, Shamans are made for this fight, so are Emerald Greens. Healing Totems heal Dragons. With 2 Batons, 2 Dragon Slayer's Swords and Rahha's shield you should beat the fight with no losses with a single stack of thorns if you ask me ><
I'm exaggerating of course. Get a Mass Dragon Slayer out if you can and you should thrash him.
As for Giants there is no other solution that to kill them asap. You have good enough troops (resistance-wise, defense-wise and Health-wise) to withstand damage from the Dragons and if you're not lined up stupidly the damage should focus on two or three of your units so it is for the best if you kill them first. If you can't, you can't. You'll just have to eat the earthquake/s, then.

Also I cannot believe that you have no regular Vampires. That is impossible. In every Carved Coffin there is one at least and they are in every graveyard in the game. At least 20 of those in all of Endoria. And in the Land Of The Dead there inevitably are some for sale (it's hihgly unlikely that there aren't ANY). Also with all the ghost ships and Undead castles (Necrocom, Karmag etc.) there just can't be no Vampires or Vampire Bats. Check the savegame scanner, seriously. There you have your 5th unit if you're unhappy with Shamans (although I can't imagine how one can be unhappy with a 15-stack of Black Dragons attacking a Totem Of Death, wasting their turn xD).
Hmm, Im not focusing on the giants in the first round, but it is just so to save lots of enemies attacks, I pretty much decimate the dragons on first turn. Ive recently tried this setup: Knights, Anc Vamps, Demons, Sprites, Sea Dogs. I would have made it if wasnt for a mistake where it was all fine until there was the cyclops left and he hit my anc vampires so there was no way to bring them back... I was trying sprites cuz they take no damage from earthquakes, but Im not sure they are made for this fight since the cyclops tend to pick on them, but they deal great amounts of damage to the cyclops and giants. I dont understand how the giants can be so sturdy, sure they have a bad ass defense but they have no resistances whatsoever...

The Sea Dogs take any dragon stack in 1 hit, even without dragon slayer, but what I said I do is mass battle cry + mass dragon slayer turn 1(I have all the utility/buff spells maxed btw), that is a staple and that is why I tend to go for the dragons first(the knights takes 2 dragon stacks first turn, and the demons take another, then I send the sprites to hit the bone dragons, but they usually leave one single bone dragon alive, those usually go for the ice ball I cast in front of the cyclops. usually on end of first turn there are usually 1-2 dragons stacks alive. Problem is when he starts casting armageddon turn 3[when I start ressing my units kkkk), sometimes he doesnt, but I never know....... I always dispel his sheep/pigmy. Ive been using helplessness on the giants turn 2 they seem to help.

So far I have tried these units:

-Knights, staple(2x dragon stacks gone in first round, if not 3 from retaliation... also have speed 3 with pilgrim boots xD, and can also tank giants later on, maybe I should circle attack a dragon with a giant on the side instead of another dragon?).

-Demons, staple?(Takes one Dragon Stack out first round, retaliation kills other dragons, and can also harass giants later on or summon if far away).

-Anc Vamps, staple?(They seen very good, only kill dragons 1 hit if its critical, can also tank giants, but take some time to actually kill them(armageddon time if its too late xD).

-Shamans(very good support unit but Im not sure if Im playing them right, should I cast totem first turn in front of cyclops? also they have low fire resistance... which can be annoying with black dragons flying over them, also the healing totem sometimes doesnt heal my dragons wth? or am I going mad, it seems like they heal at random).

-EGD(good to pick on the giants with them but they need shamans assistance, and also when I have them I cannot cast timeback on other units otherwise if they die they are gone forever, I usually cast timeback on Sea Dogs who are picked on... also they dont hit as hard as Id like, they need 2 hits to kill a dragon stack).

-Sea Dogs(these guys hit so hard, I have Mirabella, they usually take a dragon stack first turn, then get picked on by black dragons flying over them, and haas likes to pigmy them, second turn if there are 2 stacks grouped together he does some serious damage, when I use them though I have to save timeback for them at end of second turn).

-R Snakes(good, they love to critical hit the dragons which means KO, also no retaliation rules, but they need at least 1 ress due to earthquakes and low fire res, Im not completely sold on them).

-Sprites(no damage from earthquakes, would like them to 1 hit KO the bone Dragons, have to constantly take care of them as they might fall like flies any minute, when using them I have to make sure I kill as many dragons as I can on turn 1, after that they can deal serious damage on giants and cyclops but it has to be on end turn, not sold on them)

Units I tried but did not impress me:

-Griffins(no damage from earthquakes, but just wont cut it on the damage department).
-Horsemen(low damage imo).
-Ghosts(average damage, also their ressing ability is not as powerfull as the vampires, and sort of hard to keep track of the ldr count, seems more like a child I have to take constant care xD, maybe Im not using them properly).

Units I might try:

-Demoness(with or without the angas ruby?, if its with, it means no rahhas shield, see the dilemma here xD, even so Im not sure they will do enough damage to grant a position over demons).
-Bone Dragons?
-Vampires(regular ones are not available in my game, I have triple checked in teh scanner, only a couple of them in a crypt, and I cant sacrifice anymore since this is the last fight).

If u have any ideas on strats or how to properly use units plz enlighten me. I thought I was having a hard time doing that wisdom haas incarnation(Geyser every single turn with no exception xD) with no losses but this is getting the cake. Also Im using the face of pandemonic since it decreases enemy units init, however since Im battle crying always first turn Maybe it would be better to use the elven crown instead?

[Vulture]

@msp: well, that's what he said he has. Btw my Paladin game, which when I started didn't know the scanner existed, so that wasn't even hand-picked but random, had 2 Batons.

@Madstrike: you're trying too hard. And you're overanalysing things. You're doing fine. The reason why you can't annihilate everything in 3 turns is because that's just how it is ^^
But I have a few suggestions because I see some difficulties in your play

1. The dispel-trick only makes sense if Haas has to pay 40 Mana (lvl 4 unit) for the Sheep and YOU only pay 5. That requires you to bring lvl 4 units and higher only :> The dispel trick is only there to drain his mana so you don't have to fear (m)any Armageddons. If you bring lvl 1 units and give him the chance to sheep them for 20 or pygmy them for less it's no wonder the dispel doesn't do anything.

2. Shamans are there to distract the enemy with the totems and heal Dragons (but not the undead) with his Axes and the Healing Totem. Their atack itsself is irrelevant so their order of priorities should be:
a) Heal up a low hp stack of unhealables/ressables like Dragons to prevent death
b) Distract an archer or anything else, offer an easy target for hard hitting units to keep damage off your strikers.
c) Block Paths with a totem in the way that going around it costs the unit a turn so it decides it might as well kill the totem instead.
d) Set up a nifty trap for Red Dragons who think the can score a nice Flame Breath by placing a totem in a row with, say, one or two of these: Ice Ball, Phantom, Summon. Knowing the Reds will go for that gives you the chance to put Trap in front of that line. Or just for Black Dragons unless they choose to Fire Flight over them ^^

3. You might consider divorcing Mirabella and instead just get Xeona ^^ I don't see the point having your wife for just one unit in your army while with another wife you either have bonuses for more units or better item slots. And well, Xeona is the clear winner with 2 Weaps and an Artifact.

4. If you change your setup to an all-lvl4+ team and decide to oom him you won't have any of these problems. Just make sure you annihilate Giants first before they get anything off, block the Cyclops so they can't throw and avoid more than 1 or 2 of your units being hurt by Dragon attacks at the same time. As long as no 20 stack of Reds fires through all your units at once you should be fine.

5. Definitely yes to the Elven Crown. It's a 1000 ldr. That's huge ! You should have first dibs through the Ancients Vamps

6. RSnakes are good if you want to take him down fast but for a drain mana attempt where you can ress up they're too fragile and too low lvl. 3 guesses why Sprites are a pain in the ass for this approach.

7. Demonesses are fine through their Fire Resistance although both, her charm and Infernal Exchange spells are useless in that fight. You can't swap Black Dragons, everything is in close quarters anyway and there's no male humanoid in his setup. So what's left is a unit that has one no retaliation attack every 3 rounds. I usually don't bring them but there are by far worse picks.

8. You can't avoid Armageddon entirely. There is no lucky 3rd round devastation of Haas :> I mean, I'm sure others can do that. I for one have never been able to just smash him like that. And since I play no loss per se I don't feel the least bit bad about it :)

9. The Vampire thing is your own fault ^^ They ARE in every carved coffin, even in the Marshan Swamps as I said and not in "one crypt" as you put it. The savegame scanner can't tell you what's in coffins and it doesn't show it, either. You just sold the carved coffins or dismissed the vampires you pulled from them early in your game. Shame on you xD Because they're the only lvl 3 unit you can bring to a drain mana attempt as Haas almost never crowd controls them, hell knows why. But well, since there's no battle left (big mistake. Remember for the future: keep one upgradeable item (especially that of Human race because of the Gremlin fights) to sacc up whatever you need in case of emergency :>

10. about the Ancient Vampires being left over with only Cyclopses left: why didn't you just sacrifice something living for those and resurrected them a turn later ? ^^

About the 2 Geyser spamming Dragons (Wirz and Zerro, I just did them both because I'm in the Lab in my current game ^^). Both have weaknesses. One has a ridiculously low leadership and poses no threat (for a strong damage dealing army). The other one can be tricked because the only other spell he does is Phantom and that costs him 40 Mana each. Did you know you can dispel a Phantom and kill it with that ? He phantomed 54 Ancient Vampires out of 124. Gone with one click and guess what he cast next round ? Right, Phantom. 1200 Fire Dragonflies. *click* :> So I played him like I play Haas. Two Vampires, Demons, Shamans, Inquisitors (I was too lazy to go get my Black Dragons from Daloer) and just oom him, eat his Geysers and play "kill the 1000hp healing totem" with 8 poor lonely Ancient Vampires when he was oom :>

Hope I could help you.

[Madstrike]

Oh, thanks for all the help, man I totally forgot about sacing other creatures for the vamps... and that was a lucky 3rd round without armageddon lol. Anyway, even If I do bring only lvl 4 units, and prolong the battle somehow to make him spend his mana on sheep/pigmy, sometimes it is just not possible to double ress 2x units, and single ress another 3x units(Im talking about over 200 mana just on ressing), where do u get such mana????I have chargers at 5, 3 rage, 2 mana, giving 8 each at the cost of 35. I guess EGD do help here, but I always find myself needing his mana drain ability, when its almost over, so its not very helpfull since he will kill the surviving unit. If I try the mana spring/cloud of poison on my summon trick, the cloud always travels to the enemy unit. Should I use inquisitors? that would severely weaken my fire power, but I guess in teh end it would mean I can ress everyone? My max mana is 114, so its not like I can go on ressing endlessly, but still what would it be better keeping a lone giant left when trying to get the mana, or a lone cyclop?

I have mirabella, not because "I want to use sea dogs", its because I have 2x batons, and I only have shitty artifacts and weapons(except for the 2x dragon slayer swords xD), and a shitload of boots/helmets/shields, it was more of an equipment choice really, also the portal is closed so its not like I can get xeona anyway, unless I backtrack to one of my older savegames, which Im not rly keen on the idea atm.

In the end I think I should take a different approach on my spell selection, In the first turn battle cry seems like a given, but Im not so sure on mass dragon slayer, maybe I should bless the team instead, and attack the giants(retaliating the dragons), or helplessness on one of the giants stack and attack them? Even though these spells might seem worse than dragon slayer, it might be worth trying. I just hate leaving those black dragons flying and hitting sometimes2/3 of my units.

[Vulture]

Mass bless is a terrible idea with Ancient Vampires :)

Just check back with my tips on distraction techniques to avoid damage to more than 2 units at once. Especially about Phantoms. Did you know that in 9 out of 10 cases the AI prefers to attack the Phantoms instead of other units within range ? Try a better positioning altogether and make use of Distortion magic, not so much Kaboom. With 2 Swords you have enough damage. You don't need Dragon Slayer so much if you want to outlast Haas rather than insta-rape him ^^

About the mana: At a max of 114 Mana it is very easy to get the mana to ress everybody up using chargers (your mistake, they are supposed to be 3 each, not 2 mana only and give 10 mana/rage, not 8) and magic spring even without Inquisitors. Plus, your Ancient Vampires should be full anyway and your Emeralds, too. Makes only three units that must be ressed. Plus you can spare one unit the Armageddon if you just Glot's Armor it which saves another ress or sacc. Having Concentration at lvl 3 and maybe even wearing a "Well Of Mana" Belt that should be a piece of cake. My Warrior only has 80 and can pull that off. But well, he has 3/3 on Chargers ^^

Another trick is to watch the effectiveness of your resurrects. If for instance you have a stack that didn't lose too many units you can, instead of resurrecting them, sacrifice them for one that is slightly over 100% effectiveness. After that they both have, say, 80% or whatever. This way you can spare a third ress and only need 2.

The next trick is that Time Back works after round 2, too :> If you don't have the mana to ress, use sac lvl 2 on something else for 10 less mana and Time Back after that.

But if you ask me, you should just smash him and not care about losses. I mean your character is misspecced, you threw away good units, your Spirits aren't levelled perfectly well (4 rounds rest on Time Back is devastating and discouraging to restoration attempts; your Chargers suck), you're a little mal-equipped (24 Def ? Oo) and your wife gives no synergies, plus I'm sure you haven't played no-loss throughout the entire game, have you ? So on your victory screen there will be losses listed anyway, so who cares ? ^^ It's best you take your experiences from this playthrough onto the next where I am sure you'll ace it beginning to end :>

[dainbramage]

(although I can't imagine how one can be unhappy with a 15-stack of Black Dragons attacking a Totem Of Death, wasting their turn xD).

I dunno, seeing your stack of demonesses one-shot 15 blacks with a crit is happier :P (I just finished a play-through, and that was how the fight started for me).


At any rate, I did it with lake fairies + sprites + demonesses + demons + inquisitors (notable items: anga's ruby, whip, demetrius, dragon slayer's sword, face of pandemonic. 27k ldr, 34/16/22 atk/def/int). Haas had one stack of blacks, 2 of greens, 2 of bones, 1 of reds, 2 of giants, 1 of archdemons, 1 of ancient ents.


Basically the fight went:
-soul drain the scariest stack (28 reds for me)
-fairies+sprites go after green dragons
-demonesses+demons go after blacks/reds/archdemons
-bone dragons commit suicide by attacking my demons (seriously in the first turn my demons killed something like 9 reds and 44 bone dragons)
-kill archdemons
-time back lake fairies
-kill giants
-reduce ent stack to 1
-drop ball of ice next to ents
-resurrecting time


Haas had 1 ent after 6 rounds, the fight lasted 25 or so with resurrecting.


EDIT: Also I'd ignore the giants to start with. Giants do poor damage and have a crapton of hp, plus they can only attack every second turn. You can prevent an earthquake doing 500 damage to 5 stacks, or you can prevent red dragons doing 6k damage to 1-2 stacks. Your choice.

[Madstrike]

yeah I guess ur right, I do have enough damage, and anywho my rage spirits all suck like u said, cant rely on that 4 turn rest timeback kkk, or those crappy chargers for that matter. Ill prolly try out crossworlds now, do u know of a database for the new units in the cw exp? I havent found them anywhere, and does the scanner works for cw? sry asking this here, but looks like ur the only one around here willing to help xD. I might come back to the legend after that one.

ps: oh I did it: with shamans, EGD, knights, demons, and anc vamps. I wasnt rly trying I think I just lucked out with a critical from my demons on his cyclops stack, otherwise the armageddon would come for sure xD. Anyway, this time around I spread my troops a lot more, and cast helplessness on one of the giants from the get go, and started pounding on them, he just kept pigmying/sheeping my creatures(shamans and demons are his favorite targets), he also likes to hypnotize my demon summons, lol. It helped also that I phantomed my shamans for more totens cheese and target. Also I left my vampires at first relatively unguarded to let the dragons pound them, since they res themselves so fast. Sure this was on normal with a mage, but this was my first playthrough of the legend so Im happy for it xD. Regarding the no losses, yeah I had quite a few losses in the beginning since I wasnt aiming for that, only started doing it after I got to the islands, but still good, maybe afterwards I go hard mode no losses on the legend, but first I wanna try crossworlds.

[Helios]

Congrats, Madstrike. Going for no losses is almost definitely better served for later games what units are good and what kind of opposition you'll likely be up against. I'm still figuring out how useful different units are.

@Vulture: Your 10 point post is printer-worthy for future reference. Thanks for sharing all of that! You've been a great help with this game!

[Vulture]

@drainbamage: that is probably why your fight lasted 25 and mine 10. Nuff said :P :P :P :grin:

@madstike: I don't know the least thing about AP and Crossworlds, I'm sorry. I think they're flops :/

@Helios: pleased to hear that. I could also learn things from you and/or remember them while re-writing them for you (your item list helped putting things in perspective, that was well done!). Plus, and that I'm the most thankful for, you sparked my interest in this game again xD I would've never played this old unfinished Warrior game without you and Madstrike appearing on the forums asking questions. I used to be here just to troll people ever since the big boom ended in late 2010 and the forums became deserted.

And I already feel like playing another game ! Probably Mage with a heavy archer team. I'm thinking Hunters, Cannoneers and Skellies with Shamans and Emeralds (Ancient Bears/Griffins until I have Time Back lvl 5). I'll need an Elven Crown to make up for the morale loss suffered because of the Dwarves.

[Helios]

Glad to be of service, Vulture! This game is fantastic. I wish I'd discovered it sooner. I haven't played a game like this since the Genesis KB when I was a tot and didn't know what strategy was :P.

I should edit that spreadsheet a little more, but I've been too busy destroying the IoF with the Undeads.

And a general FYI to everyone: I got two batons without editing the game whatsoever--both in Darion. First at Bagaba's castle, and the second from manipulating the game in my fight with Zombie Noric. I kept killing him and reloading to fight him on a higher level until he dropped something I could use--a second baton. Also, I've figured out what he drops a little more than what I described in this topic: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25400. He changes what he drops not only based on your level, but also upon completion of either the Blessing the Crypts quest or the quest in which you break the statues in the graveyard--he went from a baton to a scroll case both while on level 9 for me. ASAIK, he's the only one in the game that can vary what item he gives you, other than the talking stone quest in Greenwort, which changes rewards depending on your level, too.

@Vulture: That Mage setup sounds like it will work--a hell of a lot better than what I'll likely try. I'll be eager to hear how your Archers do as I get closer to whatever mad attempt I can cook up with them. If you're going Archer-heavy, I strongly urge only playing a game that has an Elven Bow (I'm going to play a game with two Bows--I've actually seen three in one game once, but I'm going to need a +5 Int staff if I'm to play Mage). I don't know what it will do for the other Archers, but my skeletons are boosted by it so that every shot does as much damage as their Black Arrow attack, making that ability only useful to remove a spell from an enemy target. It may add more than +1 to min & max damage to some of the stronger Archers like the Cannoneers and Hunters.

Of all the classes, which do you think is easiest to play? My opinion has been Warrior > Paladin > Mage. Combining the Mage with the Archer game is definitely not going to be my strong point, but I'm looking forward to it--even if it ends in horror.

[dainbramage]

@drainbamage: that is probably why your fight lasted 25 and mine 10. Nuff said :P :P :P :grin:

Nah that's because you used 2 vampire stacks :P. And what difficulty? I assumed impossible, but you only have 380k kills.. I had 560k. Also I never managed to get the rest of chargers all the way down even though I got lina to lvl 30, so that added a few turns.

[Vulture]

@Helios: I don't really pay so much attention to perfect equipment. I check for decent int-boosters, two staffs, a Dragon Slayer's Sword (before the tournament), an ancient amulet and a Baton (for a Mage). All I care about is troops and spells. Sacrifice or Resurrection before castle Bogacho, one after, accessible through kiting. Ancient Vampire, Demon or at least Horsemen in Darion (Dragon Tooth's Tavern, Knight's Tent, Sarcophagus) to kill the Turtle with no losses. Inquisitors in Darion case I have Sacc first and not Ress. The game is won by spells, spirits, the right troop skills and tactics. Not so much by +/-2 int or atk. Mage is basically cheating with his two spells per turn. It's just not the same if you can Phantom and Target in one turn and then after 2 turn cast Time Back on the Phantoms and have both spells for another 2 rounds in which you can cast 4 times to ress, sacc, damage or CC ^^ it's ridiculous really. Meanwhile Warriors and Paladins have to decide what to cast and if there are archers you can't cast Phantom (not if you have lvl 1 creatures that are more attractive to archers, especialy those with "Sniper") but if you cast Target instead of Phantom, melees will attack what you don't want to be attacked. Especially sucky against undeads and plants. So many reasons why 2 casts/turn is WAY overpowered. Especially in late game. And then you still have the power to nuke. Lulzworthy :>

Also I never managed to get the rest of chargers all the way down even though I got lina to lvl 30, so that added a few turns.

I only used Chargers once in the fight.

[Helios]

I can see why you take that approach to the games you choose, Vulture. I'd be doing that too if I weren't constraining myself to specific units (that I have to edit in, no less).

Good lord, you can Time Back Phantoms?! I never thought of that. Higher Magic is insanely powerful! I can't wait to go give a Mage a whirl, now. And now I think the devs properly put that skill at the bottom of the Magic tree and with an enormous rune cost.

[Madstrike]

yeah higher magic is ridiculous, I often find myself not knowing what to cast, the combinations are many of spells, with skills of units also and rage abilities. Also the fact that a battle pretty much is decided in 2-3 turns, means that casting higher magic up to 3 times is enough, no wonder why they capped the first spell u cast on AP to no more than 10/15/20 mana on lvl 1/2/3 of higher magic respectively.

Wouldnt it be better to just get elves instead of canoneers, to avoid morale issues?

[Vulture]

Elves suck, that's why ^^ Compare this:
Vampire lvl 3 damage 6-12 physical
Elf also lvl 3 same hp and ldr but 4-5 damage

Even Orc Catapults (unarguably the shittiest ranged unit in the game) have 5-9 ^^. Elves are among the weakest dmg per ldr unit of the lvl 3 bracket. Plus they have as much health as inquisitors which doesn't make them very durable at all.

But I see your point. With 21 atk, which is the most important point when using telescopic sight, they do have some right to exist. But all in all, since I'm not using an all elf army, only 1 point of morale doesn't matter so much.

@Helios: yes, that's the reason. Thing is, tho, that my Mage is now lvl 3, hasn't killed the Turtle yet and already has the prerequisites and 10 out of 20 Magic Runes required for the talent. The fact that I found Ice Snake in one of the crypts in Marshan Swamps doesn't make that talent any more balanced for lvl 3 xD

[Helios]

You're that close to getting Higher Magic, Vulture? Wow. It took me quite awhile to get there last time, but I stupidly (?) invested in all three levels of Alchemy ASAP to maximize my spell book variety. I don't think that's a good strategy, since the high crystal costs don't even come until you have level 2 & 3 spells.

And Catapults: I'm planning on bringing a reserve stack of them on my Archer game just from Gremlin fights--that way I'll have two siege weapons for the 2x damage.

Off-topic: There's no place in the game called The Elven Underground, is there? It appears in the Scanner reports, but no place fits that description.

[Madstrike]

You're that close to getting Higher Magic, Vulture? Wow. It took me quite awhile to get there last time, but I stupidly (?) invested in all three levels of Alchemy ASAP to maximize my spell book variety. I don't think that's a good strategy, since the high crystal costs don't even come until you have level 2 & 3 spells.

And Catapults: I'm planning on bringing a reserve stack of them on my Archer game just from Gremlin fights--that way I'll have two siege weapons for the 2x damage.

Off-topic: There's no place in the game called The Elven Underground, is there? It appears in the Scanner reports, but no place fits that description.

I think that place might be that underground cave in a wee island next to the elven lands, which usually has some enemy green dragons?

@Vulture, I think the elves are not good, but might be better than cannoners in ur setup, these have ldr 220, damage 6-10, en elf has 80ldr, 4-5 damage, multiply that 3 times roughly(ldr of cannoners are more than 3x times the ones from elves) its 12-15 dmg, put on top of that their special which doubles, its 24-30, cannoners special will deal 18-30, pretty much the same, except elves have the sniper ability which can be handy early on battles. Cannoners do have higher atk(30), which can be good with telescopic sight, also they have slightly better init, so they get the edge in those matters. Elves have low ldr/health, well, cannoners have it even worse... I think you might wanna try them both and see what fits u better.

[Vulture]

You're that close to getting Higher Magic, Vulture? Wow. It took me quite awhile to get there last time, but I stupidly (?) invested in all three levels of Alchemy ASAP to maximize my spell book variety. I don't think that's a good strategy, since the high crystal costs don't even come until you have level 2 & 3 spells.

And Catapults: I'm planning on bringing a reserve stack of them on my Archer game just from Gremlin fights--that way I'll have two siege weapons for the 2x damage.

Off-topic: There's no place in the game called The Elven Underground, is there? It appears in the Scanner reports, but no place fits that description.

Yeah, it's pretty easy, isn't it ? I mean I didn't even have to kill anything for it and am still but lvl 4. I could even take it right now as I have 21 Magic Runes but I lack 2 Might Runes /facepalm
I was lucky with 5 Magic Runes for the Trial Of Will tho. Usually I only get 3 or 4.

Not sure about The Elven Underground. But I wonder the names of the Scanner all the time. For instance who is "Captain Crez Keller" ? It says he sells stuff on his ship but it's not Captain Black Eye :confused:

[Helios]

Yes, that's true about the Scanner. I think it picks up all the content that the devs were going to include, but ran out of time for. Like the actor "Pandemonic" and the ????? Dragon Tooth Necklace business.

On the Trial of Will, I wonder if what dialogue you choose matters for your reward, or if it is class-based, or even random. I got 7 Magic Runes with my current Warrior (!), and I know i chose the most brazen dialogue option about wanting the hardest test. I even reloaded my game to make sure I didn't miscount my runes, I was so shocked at getting those 7! I had a Warrior on Impossible able to learn spells in Greenwort! (I also got an insane 6-7 Magic runes in Greenwort, too. It was one of the reasons I chose my current game.)

[Helios]

Oh, and Captain Crez Keller is in the game: he's the captain of the sunken ship The Moon Ghost that you have to use the Power of Water scroll to raise from under the ocean, in the northeast corner of the Eastern Island of Freedom.

[Vulture]

Ah, okay. Thanks. I can only buy stuff from him after I killed the Kraken, right ? I can't remember that guy for the life of me right now.

[Helios]

You have to talk to the guy in the east of the Western Islands that sells you the key to Bartholomew Bart's sarcophagus and ask him about something like strange stories--that unlocks the Moon Ghost dialogue with the Mage in the tower in the northwest island of the Eastern Islands. And I was wrong. The Moon Ghost is in the far northwest of the Eastern Islands, not ne. You can buy from the Moon Ghost any time after getting the Power of Water scroll from the guy in the tower, but it sinks again if you leave the map, and you have to buy another scroll from the tower.

[Vulture]

Seems like I mix that up with the Kraken quest then. Thanks for clearing up. It's been a year since I last played the Islands ^^