Need some help against dragons

[Brakiri]

Hi,

i've reached a point where my strategy, to use only archer units is beginning to fail me.

I'm a mage, Lvl 14, and i'm in Kardor. In the mines there are some enemies with dragons in it.

Because of their stupid ini of 7, there are always first, and i lose a lot of units just in the first round.

My army: beholders, evil beholders, cyclops, archmages and cannoneers.

My leadership score is 8260.

Can anyone tell me, how to proceed against dragons and demon armies, without losing so much units?

Until now i was able to win any battle with no or minimal casualties(0-5 units).

And one more question: I have cannoneers in my army. But every time, the enemy (without heroes) also has cannoneers, they can act first. Why? That seems rather unfair. I would ad least expect a random decision who is first.

Thanks!

[Shd]

So... initiative 7 in Kardor....

I suppose green ones?

depends on how many stacks and how many dragons in stack. Anyway, try to use trap (to prevent them to hit you in first turn. If they are greens, then put trap 2 hexes from your unit because they usually trying to use their ability to drag your units and hit them). If there is one stack then use trap+dragon killer spell (as a mage you must have talent to cast 2 spells in round) to your unit with most damage. Try to change cyclops for knights (they have increased damage to dragons). Sorry, but for more info more info from you is needed :)

[Brakiri]

Hi,

there are black dragons and red dragons. There are all in stacks of 2 to 4.
Trap would be a good idea, but as i said earlier, they have the higher ini, so they have the first move. Traps are impossible.

Should i use other units?
I tried giants, but they are incredible slow, extremly expensive in regard to leadership, and very rare.

In addition i don't have enough mana runes fpr high magic.

Any other ideas?

[kennec]

giants very bad against dragons and their specials doesnt work on dragons at all.

try get alot of melee units and have spell dragon slayer on them. dont stack up your units in rows so they can shoot at 2 the same time.

i would suggest slow sturdy melee units in gangs for those battles. the time when u can destroy all enemys with same 5 mobs are simply over.

i played through game as mage and at that point i used same tactic as u with nukes and archers. at the points when u meet fast units and they can fly all over before u can nuke destroy that tactic.

get some units with high initative and try slow the dragons if u still wanna use archer mobs.

a way to get a super good mob with 7 initative is to clean gremlin castle otherwise they are not avaible until end of elven lands at lvl 23-25.

i think i used giants (5),cyklops(6)cannoners,tough slow dwarf fighters lvl 3 many,and orc shamans.

i used the orc shamans untill endgame when i couldnt replace losses and they didnt sell em more in orc castle.

rage skill drain souls is good agaisnt dragons , kills of 20-30% of their total hp in a stack. very very usefull when u start meeting dragons in stacks of 50-100 hehe :)

[Tuplis]

I get to take most dragons down even before they can act using onslaught and when I can't, I make sure to move the archers to places the dragons cant reach on the first turn (though this is not always possible). With tactics I can also help Gryphons or other melee units with a speed of 5+ to be able to reach the enemy on the first round to neutralize them.

I do realize the points I just made might not be applicable in your case because as a mage you probably don't have enough might points at the moment to push your way through the whole might tree. Still, others may find this useful.

[kennec]

I get to take most dragons down even before they can act using onslaught and when I can't, I make sure to move the archers to places the dragons cant reach on the first turn (though this is not always possible). With tactics I can also help Gryphons or other melee units with a speed of 5+ to be able to reach the enemy on the first round to neutralize them.

I do realize the points I just made might not be applicable in your case because as a mage you probably don't have enough might points at the moment to push your way through the whole might tree. Still, others may find this useful.

mages can have all might thread but not this early in game.saving money and buying might rune scrolls for 300000 each make it possible if u dont waste alot of units.

[Shd]

Yeah... forgot about init, sorry (always calculating as if i have 1st move :) ).

Just evade them... lvl 14 without high magic with leadership<10k and i suppose without geyser or something like that is a bit early for dragons i suppose. You can kill them, of course, but looses will be high so just evade and return there later :)

[Brakiri]

Ok, but what should i do next?

To continue with the kings quests, i need to free the castle from demons.
But i doubt that i have any chance.

The isles are complete, with a few low-xp exceptions.

I can't continue, nothing else left to do.

What now? Cheat? Wait for a walkthrough? *sigh*

Its a shame, that the randomisation seems a little bit off balance.
Even the altars and other one-visit objects only gave me intellect or mana twice.

It seems, that i'm stuck. :(

[fell]

Use your offensive spells/rage to reduce the stacks then just melee them down.

[Antiga]

*Spoilers*

Dragons are weak to only one thing. Poison.
All dragons have physical, magic and fire resistance, if not immunity.

Now I myself, I evaded the first couple of dragon armies and just went on, but they've never given me trouble.. In fact I prefer them, as I have no problems with dragons and the rest of the army is simply weaker in comparison.
Units that would work well vs dragons (Except the obvious knights): Swordsmen, Guardsmen(They are above average melee units, especially the guardsmen - compared to most other units in the game), Any archers with 'Dragon Arrows' spell applied. Most snakes would work pretty well, though their weaker than guardsmen in comparison, they can deal poisonous damage. But what really works best, are dragons itself - With your hero stats and items they won't take much damage and still deal considerable damage theirselfes.

Also don't forget there are items which can increase your own, or decrease enemy initiative, as well as the knight skill that increases 1st turn initiative(Which you cannot get yet, I know). You priority would be getting a stack with high initiative.. such as cannoneers and an item that increases initiative. Finding an item just for dwarven initiative shouldn't be too hard really - though the randomness doesn't say the same =).
With order magic, you can summon a phoenix. Enemies often target the phoenix first.
Again, Dragon Arrows is a true blessing. This has allowed my archers to do more damage than any of my other stacks. Phantom is a pretty nice spell, even though your actual army strength doesnt increase that much, the phantom's make excellent tanks allowing you to preserve your own troops. If you have ressurection that's nice, but it wouldn't save you from heavy losses, just minor ones.

For the harder battles, run around first to find a weak enemy, kill to get Rage in order to have full rage for the harder battle. (One full enemy army gives one full rage meter - no matter the enemy armies strength. If the army has only 1 unit, killing this 1 unit gives full rage.)

Also, Free the castle from demons? Is that what you need to do in order to get the dwarven king to sign a treaty? If so, just go to the castle and check it out. I also thought they would be way out of my league. I was level 13 and kicked their 'Slightly weaker' asses.
It's the next main quest that's gonna be a problem my friend =) I'm level 22 and still too weak for it. You will soon be able to get better archers if you finish your current main quest - The elven lands will be open to you, with this the lands of death also open to you(The first place I was able to get my own dragons!), and you can already get to demonis as well trough the dwarven underground sea. All these places will allow you to greatly customize your army and come back to beat those dragons down :)

Edit: Don't forget to loot the lands of death! Evade the enemy(Way too strong) but get the flags and stuff. One chest can give 50k+ gold, a flag 100+ leadership, take it all and you'll be that much stronger.

[fell]

Black dragons are the onlyones with outright magic/fire immunity i believe.

Icesnake does "physical" damage but you still cant target blacks with it. With black/red dragons summon demons.
Demons destroy black/red dragons with ease.

[Shd]

Brakiri, you already complete isles, killed all mobs in both mines and both upper ground dwarf areas and you have only lvl 14??? :confused:

Your bigger problem atm is to get 1st move with dragon fight (or try to change your armies to more melee like. Cavalry, knights etc..). If you want a 1st move then one of variants is to get forest spirits (i hope you didnt dismissed 15 units you got at the beginning of the game, anyway lake fairies will do too if you can buy them) and equip Agni ring. Voala, you have 1st move (question is how effective you can use it without high magic :) )

If you cannot get spirits or fairies then buy some units with decent HP (knights and cavalry will suffice. You can buy them at the tent at 1st continent and then "grow" them up by using sacrifice while fighting "weak" mobs you didnt killed before).

Did you complete gremlin pocket castle? There are some dragon eggs at basement (and there is possibility to evade enemies if you cannot kill them).

There are tons of other variants. But question which i dont understand is: did you truly killed all mobs you can in areas i wrote about and if you did, then why only lvl 14?

[fell]

I was level 14 at that stage as well. Killed probably 90% of the armies as well. But i didnt have the exp talent so maybe tahts why?

[Brakiri]

Hi,

yes i don't have the xp adding talents. I found so few runes, that i barely made it half through the magic skilltree.

I have no place, where i can buy spites, and the damn knights tent has only 14 Horseman. I waited an eternity, before i was strong enough to kill the guard on the tent, and then there where only 14 lousy horseman in it. That really sucked!

The only units i can buy in abundance are snakes (not royal), spiders, priests, archmages and the basic swordsman.

The guardsman was only available in very low quantities(50), so i don't have access to them anymore.

It seems the randomization screwed my game up pretty hard.

@Shd: I cleared the 4 starting areas, the 2 isles, Criemson mine, and 50% of the talon mine, upper and under Harad, and parts of A..something Peaks.

I will try to buy the gremlin castle, free the underground castle from the demons and get to the elven and death areas.
Thanks for all your help!

Brakiri

[Shd]

I too didnt have it. but i went to freedom isles at lvl 10. After them i had lvl 14. That means not even 1 mob killed in mines. Difficulty: impossible (dont remember what lvl i had in easy), but i dont think it plays difference that time. Anyway, in what difficulty was that?

[Gatts]

I too didnt have it. but i went to freedom isles at lvl 10. After them i had lvl 14. That means not even 1 mob killed in mines. Difficulty: impossible (dont remember what lvl i had in easy), but i dont think it plays difference that time. Anyway, in what difficulty was that?

I had very similar level at all four difficulty levels when going through game "checkpoints" - the main difference was that on hard and imposible I had to run from/avoid some stronger armies and return to them later on (what would possibly lower my checkpoint level) but still there was no significant difference. (the difference was that I got some new gray hairs and used F8 much more often than F5 :), on easy / normal it is vice versa)

So yes - even if your level need more XP on harder difficulty, you fight larger armies => you get more XP