Tales from online; ignorance of energy....

[Jumoschwanz]

Hi all,

Recently on a closed cockpit/no outside views server, the pilot of one of the very fastest aircraft in IL2 asked how I shot him to pieces from his 6 o'clock position while I was in a much slower aircraft.

I explained to him that although some of the aircraft in IL2 have a decent top speed advantage over others even of the same year, 1944 for instance, that unless they are actually traveling at top speed their advantage will be less or even reversed.

Some aircraft in IL2 with high top speeds can be kept up with or even caught at low to medium speeds by aircraft that have lower top speeds. If you add to that an energy advantage or poor energy management, then the top-speed advantage of a particular aircraft can be erased.

A little altitude or speed advantage going into a fight, or a maneuver that scrubs off less speed than your opponent can be all that is needed to get the job done, not to mention being able to make types of blind shots others don't expect you to be able to make etc....

To many this is very simple and common sense flying, but surprisingly there are people out there that have been flying IL2 for a decade who are still oblivious as to why they just got shot down.


Good luck and,

S!

[MaxGunz]

Just watch for hard and/or flat turns.

[Woke Up Dead]

Haha, I had something like that happen a month ago. Turning in a Yak-1B against a FW 190-5, I ended up on his six, about 150m back. At that point he just straightened out and flew almost perfectly level. After he bailed out he accused me of flying "Oleg's wonder-uber-Yak1B." He was expecting his faster plane to just leave me like a missile leaves a wing.

I remember being on the other end of such over-simplified assumptions when I was starting out online; once at about 1500m there was a La-5FN 500m behind me and gaining fast, so my reaction was to climb steeply because of course everyone knows those La's lose a lot of performance above 2000m, lol.

[IceFire]

Best way to learn energy in flight in IL-2 is to either fly the slower plane (which forces you to learn to conserve energy to catch up to faster opponents) or fly in air races until the concept sinks in.

The thing that amazed me in my first few air races was how much faster some pilots were than me just in how they were flying. Trim and stick inputs are much more significant than you'd think.

I enjoy flying a Ki-43 Oscar against P-40s or Corsairs, for example, because you know they are much faster than you but if you play it right then you can have more energy and be in a position to score your kills. If you play it right... It's not usually a winning proposition but it is educational.

[Jumoschwanz]

Yep, being smooth on the controls is important, but flying straight away from danger is not a good idea.

You can do both, when I am running I dive in a shallow turn so that anyone trying to hit me does not have a straight shot. It does not have to be much of a curve in your flight to make it so your pursuer has to make a lead shot instead of a straight shot. Then if you very slightly change your direction over several seconds you are in much better shape.

It is a balancing act, those running while putting in heavy control inputs are not going to pull away, and those who are so smooth on the controls that they offer their opponent an easy shot may not get too far either.

The IL2 pilot that is consistently completing his missions while scoring against his opponents has to have a very large bag of tricks he can draw from.

[JtD]

I disagree. All I need to consistently complete missions while staying alive is a fast aircraft, a decent flight plan and discipline.

[Jumoschwanz]

I disagree. All I need to consistently complete missions while staying alive is a fast aircraft, a decent flight plan and discipline.

Exactly like AI :)

I have flown on well-known servers hosted by well-known allied squads, and they all train together and use the same tactics and fly the same mission over and over again. This makes them very easy to defeat........Just like AI.

My thanks to AI and those who think and fly like them for my great successes.

[JtD]

I manage 90-95% rtb, more if I try. It's really simple, if you're in the faster plane, the other guy can be as good as he likes, he won't catch you.

[Jumoschwanz]

I manage 90-95% rtb, more if I try. It's really simple, if you're in the faster plane, the other guy can be as good as he likes, he won't catch you.

So where is this server where nobody is ever flying above you at an energy advantage? :)

[JtD]

Having someone above you with an energy advantage means that you went below him with an energy disadvantage. What a stupid thing is that to do if you don't know you're fast enough to still get out?

[K_Freddie]

Moons ago, online Berlin map..
In a FW190-A9, I'd just plugged a red a/c and was set upon by a LA7.
A few seconds later he was joined by another LA7 and they both had advantage on me.

I couldn't escape directly to Berlin, as they would easily catch me. Then both attacked one behind the other, which gave me an escape route.. turning inside this attack, I put nose down gently and 'floored it' towards the south.
They caught up to within about 400m as we reached ground level.

What followed was about 10 minutes of treetop speedway.. As I trimmed and played with my radiator and plop-pitch.. I kept them at arms length - their shells 'expiring' a few metres behind me.
Slowly turning in a wide gentle arc I headed back towards my base. The one LA gave up halfway but the other had big ideas...

Little did he know, I was leading him into a trap... my base AAA shot him down.
:cool:

[Jumoschwanz]

Having someone above you with an energy advantage means that you went below him with an energy disadvantage. What a stupid thing is that to do if you don't know you're fast enough to still get out?

I guess I should have specified I fly on hard settings servers where there is no way to know where other aircraft are on the server, just as in WWII. I am not interested in gaming on easy servers where the players scroll through outside views and have icons.....it means about the same as someone bragging about how well they do on Pac-Man.


As for K_Freddie's escape from the LA-7s, good job because they are certainly faster than a 190A. I had a similar experience once, only managing to escape because I watched my engine temperature and the pilot of an La5fn did not and ruined his engine after chasing me for quite a while.

Although the La- series of Russian fighters are generally as fast or faster than their contemporary 190A opponents, they do have fragile engines and if their pilot does not know how to manage his Energy or his engine then the full potential of their aircraft will be wasted.

In earlier patches of IL2 the Russian aircraft seemed to come apart in high speed dives easier than they do in the last few patches. Back in the day I watched more than a few La- or other Russian fighter hit the ground behind me while trying to keep up with my 109 or 190 in a dive. It was always good for a chuckle.

[JtD]

My statement applies to both externals on and externals off servers. Only difference is the flight plan.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

In earlier patches of IL2 the Russian aircraft seemed to come apart in high speed dives easier than they do in the last few patches. Back in the day I watched more than a few La- or other Russian fighter hit the ground behind me while trying to keep up with my 109 or 190 in a dive. It was always good for a chuckle.

I can't really recall how severe it was compared to now, but I've inadvertently ripped a few ailerons (or more) off in the Las while trying to follow a German fighter diving away - at around 650km/h (for the early LaGG-3 at least iirc), you don't really get a whole lot of leeway to chase down something before you're forced to call it quits.

[Laurwin]

I believe that in practical terms, it is valuable to know enemy plane's capability and your own plane's capability.

Know yourself and your enemy and you will triumph in thousand battles.

Obviously different aircraft characteristics exist for different planes. This has been established.

Characteristics such as top speed, - and perhaps even acceleration. (heavy overweight planes like p47 don't seem to accelerate fast, actually tempest seems to suffer slightly from the same thing)

And these characteristics are different at different altitudes (this is the reason for all those DREADED CHARTS that they made in black-and-white paper for studying the aircraft effectiveness in WW2)

Does this have any relevance to the game though? Well, ideally speaking the physics determine the viability of tactics and to some extent even strategy.

Physics is behind the "rules of thumb" that they gave to real life fighter pilots, rules like "never dogfight with zero" (it was posted on a placard in squadron mess somewhere in Pacific)

So, basically all of this ought to help in finding out tactics on how to use certain planes against certain enemies.


More about the speed characteristic. I do remember reading about a Finnish ww2 fighter pilot's advice to new pilots. He noted that basically assuming 1v1 scenario, the socalled speed differential (difference in speeds, of the two airplaes) is one important factor. IF the speed differential is too much disadvantegous, then this is cleaarly bad thing you could say. Practical example of this situation is e.g. brewster buffalo vs la5, p38 vs zeke

The enemy will possibly be able to gain overwhelming energy advantage, if he can keep fighting for long time, and keeps slowly building his energy. Something like that I think. It maybe was from Hans Wind fighter pilot...

[IceFire]

I guess I should have specified I fly on hard settings servers where there is no way to know where other aircraft are on the server, just as in WWII. I am not interested in gaming on easy servers where the players scroll through outside views and have icons.....it means about the same as someone bragging about how well they do on Pac-Man.


As for K_Freddie's escape from the LA-7s, good job because they are certainly faster than a 190A. I had a similar experience once, only managing to escape because I watched my engine temperature and the pilot of an La5fn did not and ruined his engine after chasing me for quite a while.

Although the La- series of Russian fighters are generally as fast or faster than their contemporary 190A opponents, they do have fragile engines and if their pilot does not know how to manage his Energy or his engine then the full potential of their aircraft will be wasted.

In earlier patches of IL2 the Russian aircraft seemed to come apart in high speed dives easier than they do in the last few patches. Back in the day I watched more than a few La- or other Russian fighter hit the ground behind me while trying to keep up with my 109 or 190 in a dive. It was always good for a chuckle.

They still do... but the effect is a little more nuanced across the lines. The Yak-9U for example had a better dive limit than the early Yak-9s. The La-7 is a bit better if I remember right than the early La-5. I can tell you that the Yak-7 falls apart at a pretty low dive speed... maybe even too low. You can't dive that thing at all!

[MaxGunz]

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

[IceFire]

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

That's the biggest problem I think... many have read about how superior X plane is in a dive and they use it at the last moment in a desperation move. And they get shot down because no matter how much faster the other plane is in a dive... it won't get you out of gun range if they are already chewing on your tail with their propeller.

[Laurwin]

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

This is true and Icefire is also right in his last post there...

I remember one encounter online in full real. I was flying mustang in 1943 against fw190A.

After a some manouvering, I got onto fw's six.

Focke wulf simply thought he could dive away from me and he started diving quite rapidly.

I immediately dived after him, slowly getting closer to gun range

I was getting closer, then the focke wulf went into even deeper and deeper dive

After maybe 2km of diving, the ocean level was getting awfully close to the focke wulf. He crashed into the ocean like a comet or something

Focke wulf didn't respect mustang's better speed and dive capability, and he paid the price. :cool:

(I didn't get the kill in game server rules, but it was manouver kill in real life rules)

[MaxGunz]

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!

[Laurwin]

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!


never say never :-P

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

[MaxGunz]

never say never :-P

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

[Jumoschwanz]

A fight between two fighter aircraft is a complicated thing, sometimes your opponent will put some distance between you and sometimes they will not.

Sometimes they might be running away to go home, or very often they might just be getting room and energy to turn and zoom back at you and blow you to pieces.

Usually if someone gets away from me I will level off and fly at an angle off their flight path so I can keep an eye on them. If they want to go home fine, but if I see them zooming back up or at me, then I will turn back towards them to either take a shot or evade their attack. Either way by the time they get back to my altitude they have lost energy.


It is not uncommon for those with a classic advantage of some sort to end up being shot down anyway by some experienced opponent with an unexpected trick up their sleeve, I have been on both ends of that story.....!

[Laurwin]

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

Eh it appears so that I misunderstood your second example completely?

Your first example I have heard of it being used in similar way as Robert Johnson did.

A fw190 sees a trailing spitfire in rear sector.

Fw190 makes maybe an initial gentle turn - sustained turn with rudder.

Spitfire adjusts his course slightly to follow

Then the fw190 rolls and adjusts his course slightly either to right or left (compared to his original straight course). FW190 has to try to minimize loss of speed in this manouver of course.

Spitfire cannot roll as fast obviously so he cannot mimic the movements exactly

spitfire has to make a turn of somekind (even a gentle turn) to keep following fw190 closely

Then the fw190 just keeps increasing distance patiently until he's comfortable :mrgreen:

[MaxGunz]

Johnson in a P-47 had a contest with an unknown pilot in a Spitfire.

[K_Freddie]

A fight between two fighter aircraft is a complicated thing, sometimes your opponent will put some distance between you and sometimes they will not.

Sometimes they might be running away to go home, or very often they might just be getting room and energy to turn and zoom back at you and blow you to pieces.

Usually if someone gets away from me I will level off and fly at an angle off their flight path so I can keep an eye on them. If they want to go home fine, but if I see them zooming back up or at me, then I will turn back towards them to either take a shot or evade their attack. Either way by the time they get back to my altitude they have lost energy.


It is not uncommon for those with a classic advantage of some sort to end up being shot down anyway by some experienced opponent with an unexpected trick up their sleeve, I have been on both ends of that story.....!

EGGSACTLY.... I think this post should be a sticky for wannabees and know-it-alls
:grin:

[Jumoschwanz]

I was in a relevant situation in the last few days. Flying a Fw190 on a map with lots of clouds, I was skimming the tops of the clouds as most of the action was close to ground level between fighters and ground attack aircraft. I wanted to be able to dive down, make shots and have enough E to escape into a cloud if I had to.

I got a MKVIII Spitfire down that was attacking a gaggle of Bf-110s, the Spitfire had two friends that turned onto my tail. I had some E on them and followed my plan and zoomed up through a large cloud, then I leveled out until I was able to loop back towards the two spits. They were smart enough to save enough energy so they could maintain control and turn out of the path of my attack. Because their energy level was close to mine and they were smart, I decided it was a bad ideal to keep looping with them one vs. two so I leveled out into very slight arcs away from them. They got bored and turned towards home, as I had dragged them far into my territory and they were probably low on fuel. I then turned back towards them with a lot of confidence to give chase using the clouds but unfortunately the map ended.

The MkVIII Spit is a pretty good matchup for a mid-war FW190. Being the pursuer is always a big advantage not only because it holds a high chance of offering some sort of shot at the target, but also because if the target decides to turn 180 degrees back towards you horizontally or as a Split S, then the energy it loses in doing so grants an instant advantage to you. So if you are being pursued then you really need to gain enough of a lead to execute a maneuver that will not only reverse your direction, but also preserve your energy and altitude.....

[Pursuivant]

Johnson in a P-47 had a contest with an unknown pilot in a Spitfire.

This combat is described in Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat" and has been discussed on other threads on this forum (vis a vis the relative merits and performance of the P-47 series). Johnson was able to beat a Spitfire IX using a P-47C in a mock dogfight using Boom and Zoom tactics.

Fortunately, the AI behavior for IL2 is nicely models this encounter and usually uses good tactics. Set up a 1 vs. 1 head-on fight between a P-47D-10 vs. a Spitfire Mk IX in the QMB, at about 5000 meters of altitude, give the Spit pilot Average AI, give the P-47 Ace AI. Hit Autopilot as soon as the encounter starts, switch to some sort of external view and watch the fun.

Unless the Spitfire and the P-47 get a kill (or a double kill, or collide) during the head-on pass at the merge, usually the P-47 will be able to use energy tactics to get a kill on the Spit.

[Pursuivant]

Being the pursuer is always a big advantage not only because it holds a high chance of offering some sort of shot at the target, but also because if the target decides to turn 180 degrees back towards you horizontally or as a Split S, then the energy it loses in doing so grants an instant advantage to you. So if you are being pursued then you really need to gain enough of a lead to execute a maneuver that will not only reverse your direction, but also preserve your energy and altitude.....

I'm just a wimpy off-liner, but my experience is that you need at least 2.5 km of separation to make a 180 degree turn, regain speed and set up a head-on attack if you are at about the same level as an opponent. Maybe a bit less if you've got altitude or a plane with an excellent turn or roll rate.

[MaxGunz]

I'm just a wimpy off-liner, but my experience is that you need at least 2.5 km of separation to make a 180 degree turn, regain speed and set up a head-on attack if you are at about the same level as an opponent. Maybe a bit less if you've got altitude or a plane with an excellent turn or roll rate.

Are you using a wing-over or Immemann to change direction?

A plane approaching at 600kph is moving at 500m every 3 seconds so for sure you don't have long to get offensive even at 2500m! But a half-loop and drop back down shouldn't take as long as a flat 180 alone.

[Jumoschwanz]

Sometimes if someone is following you the option to run is gone. They might be faster or already be in firing range when you notice them. If you can not run then it is time to burn up some of your energy turning to evade those cannon shells.

In that situation I would think about trying to trick my pursuer into flying past me into my gun-sight, or I would keep dodging his shots until he might lose his patience and come down to or below my energy level, it happens all the time.

Using energy to fight might not mean that you have the advantage or are using your great energy to attack, but you might be using your opponents energy advantage against him by being able to turn sharper than them, by not blacking out as easily, exceeding your G limit as easily or by knowing they may be overconfident and careless.

An advantage is a very nice thing to have in your hand, but it is easy to lose or have it taken from you unless you practice and know exactly what it can do for you.

S!

[MaxGunz]

If you don't let yourself get slow and low then you still have the option to avoid in 3 dimensions instead of just the most draggy horizontal plane.

[Jumoschwanz]

REALLY low and slow can be an art though, especially if there is interesting terrain involved. Many IL2 pilots are not good at flying really low and I have seen quite a few end up hitting the ground while they were trying to make passes on a low target.

Of course really low but at a medium to fast speed might offer more.....:)

[MaxGunz]

It's okay if you've got help coming or friendly AA not far to get to. Been there, done that.
Ever had bombs dropped in front of you because you were so low?

[Jumoschwanz]

Ever had bombs dropped in front of you because you were so low?

If I was not the first one to purposely take a pursuer out with a bomb drop I was probably one of the first.

I know I did it on Aviar's dogfight server ten or more years ago. Before mods broke up the community and many servers had large populations it was a regular thing to see as the idea was passed along with everything else. Recent changes to bomb models have made it different but it can still be done.

More than anything I have probably taken myself out with bombs by forgetting to set a delay........

[Neal]

First time I remember low flying planes getting bomb-blasted was early 1998 in RB3.