P-47s

[Fighterace]

G'day all, If my memory serves me correct was there an update to the P-47 cockpits and 3D models? If so what is the status of those.

Also is it possible to have the P-47M or P-47N for this game or is it going into NG restrictions.

Thanks

[gaunt1]

I think P-47M is unnecessary. It was a fairly unsuccessful, insignificant variant. We also have the P-47D without block number ingame, which more or less matches its performance.
On the other hand, adding a P-47N is a good idea, a really important aircraft, especially on the pacific.
In my opinion, the P-47C would be also a great to have.

[Pursuivant]

I think P-47M is unnecessary. It was a fairly unsuccessful, insignificant variant.

It was considered to be the "hotrod" model of the P-47, and was built in very small numbers to equip the 56th Fighter Squadron. It would be fun, but as you said, not necessary.

On the other hand, adding a P-47N is a good idea, a really important aircraft, especially on the pacific. In my opinion, the P-47C would be also a great to have.

The P-47N didn't see that much action due to overwhelming US air superiority by the time it became operational, but did have the distinction of being the plane piloted by the last U.S. "Ace in a day" - 1LT Oscar Perdomo.

But, in a hypothetical "Japan 46" where the A bombs didn't work or were never used, and the US, UK and USSR invaded Japan, it would have been a major player, so it gets my vote for that reason.

As for the P-47C, remember that early blocks of "C" and "D" production aircraft were virtually indistinguishable from each other and in some cases only referred to production origin (Evansville, IN vs. Farmingdale, NY).

The exact model of the P-47C we should be asking for is either the P-47C-2 or P-47C-5, since these were the first operational long-range U.S. escort fighters, and were extremely important historically for that reason. IIRC, the external model of the P-47C-5 is close enough to the P-47D-10 that it could be created using just FM and loadout changes.

Of course, we don't have the maps to cover most of the terrain the P-47C-2 or -5 pilots fought over, but that's a different issue.

[Treetop64]

Also is it possible to have the P-47M or P-47N for this game or is it going into NG restrictions.

Thanks

Considering that the P-47 was built by Republic and, in limited numbers, Curtiss, that is not likely...

As others have stated, the "M" variant was a souped-up "D" model built in very limited numbers, and wasn't terribly successful.

The "N" model, on the other hand, would be nice to have in-game. It would also be nice to have more maps that allow the operational range of the "N" model to be exploited, as well as that of other long-range aircraft.

[IceFire]

The P-47N I always thought was interesting... different shape to the wings, greater range, HVAR rockets, used in the late stages of the Pacific war.

The P-47M is interesting too although we pretty much already have it in the non-descript P-47D, 1944 which is meant to simulate a field mod/hot rodded P-47D-27. Pretty much bang on in performance.

[Fighterace]

The P-47N I always thought was interesting... different shape to the wings, greater range, HVAR rockets, used in the late stages of the Pacific war.

The P-47M is interesting too although we pretty much already have it in the non-descript P-47D, 1944 which is meant to simulate a field mod/hot rodded P-47D-27. Pretty much bang on in performance.

Could you modify the 3D model of the non-descript P-47D by adding a dorsal fin fillet and add dive recover flaps and call it the P-47M??

[IceFire]

Could you modify the 3D model of the non-descript P-47D by adding a dorsal fin fillet and add dive recover flaps and call it the P-47M??

I don't have the talent. Someone could.

[Fighterace]

Any new P-47s would be a great addition to this game :)

[trashcanman]

Any new P-47s would be a great addition to this game :)

Just fixing the existing P-47 razorback bar would be a good start :)

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/trashcanman2010/RB_02_zpsb7a434ec.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/trashcanman2010/media/RB_02_zpsb7a434ec.jpg.html)

Look! No "refraction" required !!! :rolleyes:

I was going to post the rest but unless I can find hard evidence that the Lw flew them in combat it ain't gonna get done ....

Sad really. Let the ban commence :)

[IceFire]

Just fixing the existing P-47 razorback bar would be a good start :)

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/trashcanman2010/RB_02_zpsb7a434ec.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/trashcanman2010/media/RB_02_zpsb7a434ec.jpg.html)

Look! No "refraction" required !!! :rolleyes:

I was going to post the rest but unless I can find hard evidence that the Lw flew them in combat it ain't gonna get done ....

Sad really. Let the ban commence :)

You mean how the gunsight is mounted too low? It'd be nice to fix that one.

[trashcanman]

You mean how the gunsight is mounted too low? It'd be nice to fix that one.

Ah yes, the old chestnut of the gun sight too low …. I take it you are still part of the TD disinformation collective then :)

Please allow me to present the facts of the Fw 190 bar and the P-47 razorback bar.

For many years the representation within IL-2 of the gun sight views associated with both of these contemporary aircraft has been viewed as flawed given that both had the bottom part of the view obscured.

For reasons that are best left alone for the purposes of this discussion, the excellent Luftwaffe fighter has had many vociferous champions of the need to remove this visual obstruction. I believe it is fair to say that these arguments can be summarised as the need to remove “the bar”.

There were a few that advocated a similar argument in favour of the same consideration being given to the less fashionable American aircraft.

Despite the passionately presented arguments, over many years, the developers of IL-2 decided to maintain their original representation of the gun sight views of both aircraft.

However, once the IL-2 files were modified by Team Diablos, the Fw 190 bar was immediately removed. The sole justification for this, and in the face of all other contrary evidence, was given as the dispersion of light waves at the perimeter of different densities of glass.

However, despite the far clearer evidence for the need to apply the same correction to the P-47, we have yet to see this even discussed or acknowledged. Every now and again there will be a vague promise of the Jug cockpit being “reworked”, “looked at” or just PM abuse, threats and forum bullying.

As I have said both here and in other online discussions, much of what TD is doing to mod IL-2 is excellent however there are many people that are concerned with the lack of consistency and transparency about changes being made that significantly alter the historical integrity of the game.

[IceFire]

Ah yes, the old chestnut of the gun sight too low …. I take it you are still part of the TD disinformation collective then :)

I don't believe in conspiracy theories that involve more than 2 people.


Please allow me to present the facts of the Fw 190 bar and the P-47 razorback bar.



For many years the representation within IL-2 of the gun sight views associated with both of these contemporary aircraft has been viewed as flawed given that both had the bottom part of the view obscured.

For reasons that are best left alone for the purposes of this discussion, the excellent Luftwaffe fighter has had many vociferous champions of the need to remove this visual obstruction. I believe it is fair to say that these arguments can be summarised as the need to remove “the bar”.

There were a few that advocated a similar argument in favour of the same consideration being given to the less fashionable American aircraft.

Despite the passionately presented arguments, over many years, the developers of IL-2 decided to maintain their original representation of the gun sight views of both aircraft.

However, once the IL-2 files were modified by Team Diablos, the Fw 190 bar was immediately removed. The sole justification for this, and in the face of all other contrary evidence, was given as the dispersion of light waves at the perimeter of different densities of glass.

However, despite the far clearer evidence for the need to apply the same correction to the P-47, we have yet to see this even discussed or acknowledged. Every now and again there will be a vague promise of the Jug cockpit being “reworked”, “looked at” or just PM abuse, threats and forum bullying.

As I have said both here and in other online discussions, much of what TD is doing to mod IL-2 is excellent however there are many people that are concerned with the lack of consistency and transparency about changes being made that significantly alter the historical integrity of the game.

You're right in that if one aircraft suffers from a particular malady from the simulation environment is fixed then it sure would be nice to have other types that suffer similarly to have some time spent on them.

I honestly don't know if anyone has looked at the P-47 cockpit but given the number of American aircraft enthusiasts it is surprising that the bar discussion never reached the level that the FW190s did. The FW190 one was hundreds of pages spread over several threads on the old Ready Room forum. I think the P-47s gunsight issue came up maybe once or twice over the years. Has it even come up here? Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The P-47 cockpit suffers from more than just a poorly placed gunsight. It needs a redo... the texture work is atrocious (and unfinished according to the original authors) and the geometry could stand to be cleaned up a fair bit too. I do wonder if anyone was doing some work on the P-47 that they decided to do a more substantial effort and that it would take a lot longer. If this is such an issue for you... why not get involved?

[trashcanman]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories that involve more than 2 people.

May I suggest the following as examples :D

WMD in Iraq
BBC and Jimmy Saville
Hillsborough and South Yorkshire Police

As for the volume of the noise coming from Fw 190 fans over the years, I think that says more about them than the quality of their "facts" ;)

Sadly, too many American aircraft enthusiasts are only interested in the post-D-Day aircraft like the P-51D.

Any hoo, I've made my point, my beloved P-47 razorback isn't going to get changed by TD.

Lastly, I would like to thank you IceFire for your civilised responses, you are a gentleman Sir. ~S!

[ImpalerNL]

It's a great airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsuKqPDcAfw

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

I have been fortunate enough in my life to have seen 3 Jugs fly. One was in a CAF airshow in Texas and made a very close to full power low pass and the other two were at an airshow in Indiana. They did some low passes but they were far from wide open. It was quite awesome.

[IceFire]

Any hoo, I've made my point, my beloved P-47 razorback isn't going to get changed by TD.

Lastly, I would like to thank you IceFire for your civilised responses, you are a gentleman Sir. ~S!
I hope that you're proven wrong. I really do... The first fighter I learned on in IL-2 Forgotten Battles after the typical La-7 noobish beginnings was the P-47 because I loved the idea of the plane and because it was the greatest challenge. I have a serious appreciation for the aircraft. It was terribly modelled at the beginning and I was one of the louder voices asking for things like its roll rate to be corrected. So believe me when I say that I'd like to see a few resources put here too. And I'd love a P-47N out of the deal if it wasn't too much to ask. :D

I do try! :cool:

[IceFire]

I have been fortunate enough in my life to have seen 3 Jugs fly. One was in a CAF airshow in Texas and made a very close to full power low pass and the other two were at an airshow in Indiana. They did some low passes but they were far from wide open. It was quite awesome.

Haven't been lucky enough to see one yet... One day I will!

[RPS69]

Accusing a developement team of being biased, is a very unpolite approach.
TD got tons of work to do, and with their propper schedule.
Even on the absurd discusion about the 190's bar, peopleatempted to show proof on original planes photos.
Pick a photo of a P47 cocckpit and superpose it with the one in game and show us the truth.
Not meaning that the actual solution is right, but that the proposed one is better.
I will prefer TD to alocate time on the Pz 11. It is far worst than the P47, and it is the only official polish plane.

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Haven't been lucky enough to see one yet... One day I will!

That low pass sounded just like you imagine that it would. ;) It was at Hondo, Texas. He came over about a thousand feet, went out about two miles, turned and lined up with the runway, hopped a line of trees at the end of the runway and came screaming down the centerline. It was either an N or an M, I don't recall which it was. It's been a long time ago.

[IceFire]

That low pass sounded just like you imagine that it would. ;) It was at Hondo, Texas. He came over about a thousand feet, went out about two miles, turned and lined up with the runway, hopped a line of trees at the end of the runway and came screaming down the centerline. It was either an N or an M, I don't recall which it was. It's been a long time ago.

That does sound glorious! If it sounds anything like a F4U Corsair doing something sort of similar ... then it will be spectacular.

[spiteful21k]

Is this where I throw a cat amongst the pigeons and say I'd love to have a P-43 Lancer (both USAAF and RAAF) and a P-35?:D

[Pursuivant]

Is this where I throw a cat amongst the pigeons and say I'd love to have a P-43 Lancer (both USAAF and RAAF) and a P-35?:D

They'd be interesting "what-if" planes, like the CW-21 and I'd certainly fly them if someone modeled them, but realistically they saw almost no combat service and proved themselves to be "less than outstanding" designs.

The Chinese used a few P-43s to no real effect, the P-35 saw limited use in the defense of the Philippines in 1941/early 1942, but that was it. In the game, they'd mostly serve as moving targets for Zeroes and Oscars.

[ElAurens]

The Japanese had a squadron of 2 seater versions of the P35 that was operational.

I have seen P47s fly many times...

http://imageshack.com/a/img27/5056/tom11w.jpg

A photo I took a couple years ago at the Thunder Over Michigan air show.

Most of the ones currently flying are probably louder than WW2 operational birds as they are not using the turbo chargers.

Still, wonderful to see in flight.

[ImpalerNL]

It's a great airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsuKqPDcAfw

At 2.06 you can see that the supercharger doors are open a bit.
It means that the intercooler is warm so the supercharger is in use on this p-47.

[IceFire]

At 2.06 you can see that the supercharger doors are open a bit.
It means that the intercooler is warm so the supercharger is in use on this p-47.

It's a turbosupercharger so... if the supercharger is in use does that mean by necessity that the turbo is also working?

[ImpalerNL]

It's a turbosupercharger so... if the supercharger is in use does that mean by necessity that the turbo is also working?

The supercharger is mechanically powered by the engine and the turbo is driven by the exhaust gasses so both are working anyway.

[ElAurens]

The exhaust smoke you see at the front of the aircraft on start up is coming from the waste gate outlet. It's the waste gate that bipasses exhaust gas to control the amount of boost that the turbo produces.

The turbo exhaust outlet is that bump under the rear of the fuselage.

One of the give-aways that the turbo is still installed and operable is exhaust smoke coming from that rear outlet. EVen with the boost pulled way back for start up, there would still be some venting from the rear turbo exhaust ports.

Remember that turbo units for aircraft from this period are absolutely gigantic compared to the automotive turbo-superchargers that most folks these days are familiar with. The only place with enough room for it on a P-47 is in the rear fuselage, it and it's ducting take up almost all the available space back there.

[ElAurens]

The technically correct name for a "turbo" is turbosupercharger. It's just an exhaust gas driven supercharger, and if equipped it does not necessarily mean that the engine has a mechanically driven supercharger as well.

If an engine does have both it is commonly called a compound supercharged engine.

At least that is how I remember it.

[majorfailure]

The turbo exhaust outlet is that bump under the rear of the fuselage.

One of the give-aways that the turbo is still installed and operable is exhaust smoke coming from that rear outlet. EVen with the boost pulled way back for start up, there would still be some venting from the rear turbo exhaust ports.

I think we can see this in this vid, at ~0:23:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5ch3zmZ9Zw

[ElAurens]

Yes indeed.

[SuperEtendard]

ElAurens i found a video where those P-47's Wicked Wabbit and Hun Hunter XVI fly together, and everything from Wicked Wabbit pilot's perspective, with a cam on his helmet!

Very interesting to know the cockpit and how it works from live inside

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBVj4I3bHik

[IceFire]

Interesting stuff. Although I know quite a lot about the details of these aircraft, the mechanicals and how they work I will never understand as well you folks do! :)

[Furio]

If an engine does have both it is commonly called a compound supercharged engine.

At least that is how I remember it.



If I’m not mistaken, the turbo compound had turbines mechanically connected to the crankshaft, or a blowdown turbine. Just one type was ever produced: the Wright R3550. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_R-3350

[ElAurens]

Yes, that is the one I was thinking of.