Requesting help for evasive maneuver.

[Flanker1985]

Please help, ever since the 4.11 patch came out, I got problem dodge the fight attack. Can anyone help me out a bit and sharing some videos of how to do better evasive maneuver, please?
Can't thanks enough.

[IceFire]

My suggestion is to get to know air combat manoeuvring (ACM) better so that you are more proficient both defensively and offensively. The more time spent in a potentially offensive position the better. Being on the defense at range is a manageable situation but most don't recognize that they are in this situation until they are what is really a "guns defense" type situation where the enemy is behind them and in a firing position.

Wikipedia is actually a decent starting place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

Some of the key types of moves that I tend to employ:

Negative Knife Edge - Basically you roll 90 degrees until one wing is facing the sky and the other the ground. Normally the lift vector is now pointed towards the horizon in the direction of the top of your aircraft, however, this is where you push forward on the stick and go in the opposite direction that your plane would normally do. Its a good quick move when your opponent sees you rolling into a defensive turn and your motion takes you in the opposite direction. Timing is key as this is a deception to evade an attack rather than a solution in itself.

Rolling Scissors - Putting your plane into a barrel roll and slowing it down so that the attacking aircraft is now sucked into your roll is another way of defending from an attack. The idea is to fly tighter and go slower without loosing control so that he shoots out in front of you and you are now potentially in the attacking position.

Spit S - A simple one in the bag of tricks that works well on aircraft with high roll rates. A FW190 or a Yak is ideal here. A the opportune moment you roll inverted and dive away steeply.


Those are a few... there are others. As always, team tactics works best so a wingman backing you up is a great thing to have. Also the best defense is, as they say, a good offense. Being in a superior position either from a speed or altitude perspective (energy) is key to winning a fight. If you can dominate the fight from the beginning then the enemy will never have a guns solution that would even threaten you. That takes time, patience, and some luck.

[Flanker1985]

My suggestion is to get to know air combat manoeuvring (ACM) better so that you are more proficient both defensively and offensively. The more time spent in a potentially offensive position the better. Being on the defense at range is a manageable situation but most don't recognize that they are in this situation until they are what is really a "guns defense" type situation where the enemy is behind them and in a firing position.

Wikipedia is actually a decent starting place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

Some of the key types of moves that I tend to employ:

Negative Knife Edge - Basically you roll 90 degrees until one wing is facing the sky and the other the ground. Normally the lift vector is now pointed towards the horizon in the direction of the top of your aircraft, however, this is where you push forward on the stick and go in the opposite direction that your plane would normally do. Its a good quick move when your opponent sees you rolling into a defensive turn and your motion takes you in the opposite direction. Timing is key as this is a deception to evade an attack rather than a solution in itself.

Rolling Scissors - Putting your plane into a barrel roll and slowing it down so that the attacking aircraft is now sucked into your roll is another way of defending from an attack. The idea is to fly tighter and go slower without loosing control so that he shoots out in front of you and you are now potentially in the attacking position.

Spit S - A simple one in the bag of tricks that works well on aircraft with high roll rates. A FW190 or a Yak is ideal here. A the opportune moment you roll inverted and dive away steeply.


Those are a few... there are others. As always, team tactics works best so a wingman backing you up is a great thing to have. Also the best defense is, as they say, a good offense. Being in a superior position either from a speed or altitude perspective (energy) is key to winning a fight. If you can dominate the fight from the beginning then the enemy will never have a guns solution that would even threaten you. That takes time, patience, and some luck.

Thanks mate. But can you do a few in a video so I can see? Please~!!!
I don't need offensive maneuver, just defensive. Especially from aircrafts like LaGG-3 where you have no rear visibility.

[Laurwin]

From what I remember Lagg-3 is a little bit outmatched by contemporary German fighters in flight characteristics.
This is very bad thing if you end up in disadvantegous situations. But it still, doesn't mean you should just roll over and surrender.

I recently watched an instruction video about game Falcon 3.0. There was real life American jet fighter pilot giving the lesson. He said, that ultimately being on the defensive is not a very good position to be in, with any aircraft.

There is no single manouver, that you can learn from a rulebook, that always is good, that will always save ur ass when you are defensive. This is because, being defensive is bad thing, in air combat. (1v1)

Guns defenses are for avoiding guns, but they on their own are not some magical manouver which will give you victory (usually). They will buy you TIME (time to live, to survive even a little bit longer)
So in this sense Icefire is correct indeed.

Lagg-3 vs bf109f4. This is not exactly speaking, 1v1, "gentlemen's fight".

Reason is simply that bf109 has so many advantages, and I don't think lagg3 has strictly speaking any advantage except at low altitude turning fight (this is theoretically best engine performance area, for lagg3)

On the other hand, you probably stand a beter chance of defeating bf109, 1v1, when you (lagg-3) have the altitude advantage over bf109 at the start of the fight.

Kill him quickly though, because your probability of winning start lowering with increase in the time (if the fight stays at medium-high altitude where bf109 has biggest performance advantage over lagg-3)
If the bf109 makes mistake, stalling from medium altitude to low altitude, then you can get energy advantage to yourself.

If the bf109 starts making big mistakes (like losing too much energy) then the fight becomes easier for Lagg-3 to win. (because bf-109 is better at energy fighting, because good climb rate, speed and diving characteristic). This means that bf109 is able to regain lost energy back at fast rate, if he actually does choose to regain energy (climb, or fly straight with increasing speed)

But, indeed, Icefire already gave you practical examples. Common mistakes in defensive manouvers is the wrong timing of the manouver (too early, and the enemy predicts your movements and is able to adjust in time).
If the defensive manouver is too late, well then you are probably dead already hehe... :cool:

What other defense moves could there be? Some moves not yet mentioned would be simply using full rudder to "skid forward", and scissor at the same time. I suppose, the scissor is almost like a "fake scissor" because you will in reality mainly rely on the skidding of the rudder. This will dramatically slow your own plane, and cause overshoot, if the attacker doesn't realize what is going on. I don't really know how to do it too well myself, embarrassing I know, but maybe Icefire can explain it better (for a fast moving attacker it can sometimes be disorientating enough).

Snap stall is another staple move, but the downside of it is that it robs you of your own energy as well, but if it works, then you get angular advantage, you get behind the enemy's 3-9 line. Then you must simply recover from the snap stall also, at very low altitudes it can be deadly if you don't recover fast enough.

the so-called Hartmann defence I forgot exactly how it is performed, but the intention is to cause an overshoot situation also. This manouver was a real manouver sometimes performed by hartmann and you maybe able to google it.

Well, you should also read the online IL-2 pilot's guide to air combat. Here's a link for free version pdf http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/lento_ohjeet/inpursuit/inpursuit.pdf

[Laurwin]

That online guide had a feisty paragraph about guns defense also. From page 61 forward.

Obviously guns defense, you want to survive from being shot at with cannon. This is first objective always. But like it says in the article, guns defense is not the key to victory yet.

Scissors battle is actually an offensive minded manouver, where YOU KILL the enemy if it works properly.

-When starting scenario is, enemy at your 6 oclock. This is clearly bad starting situation btw. Usually in these kind of situations, you are either co-Energy, or you are at enegy disadvantage. Rarely you have energy advantage when you get surprised like that.

-you must survive first attack

-you must kill the enemy

-or you must escape the battle

(or you get lucky when a teammate helps you and kills the enemy)


Sometimes, it is actually possible to simply escape from the battle. For example if you fly the faster plane. For example, hawker tempest is faster than focke wulf A9, you can sometimes simply run away.

In a situation like that, where you can run away, you can still do small "guns defenses", or "jinks" where you don't fly completely straight into one direction, but you are still flying fast enough to escape, further and further (beyond enemy's gun convergence range, range where firepower is less lethal in some cases)

[IceFire]

Thanks mate. But can you do a few in a video so I can see? Please~!!!
I don't need offensive maneuver, just defensive. Especially from aircrafts like LaGG-3 where you have no rear visibility.

I'm not really setup to record videos right now so that would be a lot of work.

YouTube some of these terms and have a look for yourself. I'm sure you'll find something that you're lookingfor.

Remember... offensive maneuvering is important so do not dismiss it lightly. You might think you need more defensive but thats a mistake. When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead. You always want to maintain a neutral or offensive posture and not be in a situation where the enemy is on the attack. Knowing the right kinds of offensive moves will ensure that you don't get sucked into making a mistake and being put on the defensive.

Sometimes you're faced with no choice but generally speaking these are important things.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid. The Bf109 will make up the energy loss almost immediately while you'll be waiting... and thats when they get you.

This is a good aircraft to learn on actually. It's capable but inferior so that when you do get to a better aircraft like the later Yak or La-5 series you'll have fewer bad habits.

[Igo kyu]

When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead.
The statistic is that most pilots who were shot down didn't know they were being attacked. I believe the corollary of this is that in the real world, defensive manouvers, done properly, work.

Turn toward the enemy (if he's behind you, turn to the side on which he is relative to your tail), and keep turning until he's gone past, if an attacker blacks out, his attack is done, whereas if a defender blacks out, and his attacker doesn't, the attacker has gone past so you've some time to recover. If the attacker is in the better turning aircraft and the speed is too slow for blackouts, get more speed and get out of range, but basically keep turning, and keep rolling, even if he can catch your turn he can't catch your roll. Rolling without turning is no use, that's just fancy flying in a straight line. Once he's past, then it's your turn to attack.

A big mistake I often make is thinking he's past before he actually is, that usually ends badly.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid.
The LaGG is not a boom and zoom fighter. Which means (against the 109) it is a turn and burn fighter. Get to zero altitude (plus a wings width of height, so you don't crash), and turn faster than the 109s can. If they come down at you they will be faster than you, which means they have to risk flying into the ground to fire at you, if they stay at ground level you will catch them in the turn, so they usually don't. Against the AI always take out the wingmen first, they don't fight unless you attack the leader, and the leader's already fighting so you lose nothing.

[Laurwin]

Defensive manouvers can work in real life,, because they rely on human anatomy. (duh!)

Many of them rely on neurological processes and responses of human pilot in the enemy aircraft.

Isn't this the basic reason why a manouver like the already described "negative knife edge" work in the first place?

Granted, these manouvers usually will not give you a ready kill on a silver platter. (except e.g. big mistake of the attacker, and a killshot from snapshot in scissors fight, from the defender.)

You must work for your kill in most other cases?

[majorfailure]

The statistic is that most pilots who were shot down didn't know they were being attacked. I believe the corollary of this is that in the real world, defensive manouvers, done properly, work.

What about the guys that knew what hit them? I'd say if this gives us anything then it is: Defensive maneuvres CAN work. But there is a counter to any defensive maneuvre, and if the attacker guesses right you are toast anyway. You can sit in the best rolling plane in this game and get the timings of your rolling scissors absolutely brilliantly right - and the enemy makes a no-nonsense cut across your manuvre and you're dead anyway.

[Flanker1985]

I'm not really setup to record videos right now so that would be a lot of work.

YouTube some of these terms and have a look for yourself. I'm sure you'll find something that you're lookingfor.

Remember... offensive maneuvering is important so do not dismiss it lightly. You might think you need more defensive but thats a mistake. When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead. You always want to maintain a neutral or offensive posture and not be in a situation where the enemy is on the attack. Knowing the right kinds of offensive moves will ensure that you don't get sucked into making a mistake and being put on the defensive.

Sometimes you're faced with no choice but generally speaking these are important things.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid. The Bf109 will make up the energy loss almost immediately while you'll be waiting... and thats when they get you.

This is a good aircraft to learn on actually. It's capable but inferior so that when you do get to a better aircraft like the later Yak or La-5 series you'll have fewer bad habits.

No, it's not a lot of work to record video at all. Just use the in game track ;)

Also I think I am giving you the wrong idea about my request. I am not a rookie. I have been flying this game for over 8 years now. It's just since the 4.11, the developing team upgraded the AI, and now the AI planes are not stupid anymore :P So I need a bit advanced lessens for refreshment purposes. ;)
And that is why I want to see tracks and videos. So I can understand the actual logic in practices.

[Igo kyu]

What about the guys that knew what hit them? I'd say if this gives us anything then it is: Defensive maneuvres CAN work. But there is a counter to any defensive maneuvre, and if the attacker guesses right you are toast anyway. You can sit in the best rolling plane in this game and get the timings of your rolling scissors absolutely brilliantly right - and the enemy makes a no-nonsense cut across your manuvre and you're dead anyway.
The guys that knew what hit them were a small minority. I'm not finding a quote unfortuntely, but I think it was something like 85% or so who first knew anything was wrong when bullets started arriving. The reports were from interviews with survivors.

The enemy can get lucky with guessing which way you're turning and rolling, but if you're evasive with no counter attack, then they're not that close, the turn means they have to lead, and the roll means they need to lead the roll and maintain their distance, altogether it's just not doable without a lot of luck. Of course, two attackers against one is not half so easy for the defender.

It's just since the 4.11, the developing team upgraded the AI, and now the AI planes are not stupid anymore :P
I'm still using 4.07 (I have 4.08 somewhere, but there's a reason for not using it, I forget what it is, but there was something). However, theories about flight don't depend on IL*2 version number.

[rollnloop]

No, it's not a lot of work to record video at all. Just use the in game track ;)

Also I think I am giving you the wrong idea about my request. I am not a rookie. I have been flying this game for over 8 years now. It's just since the 4.11, the developing team upgraded the AI, and now the AI planes are not stupid anymore :P So I need a bit advanced lessens for refreshment purposes. ;)
And that is why I want to see tracks and videos. So I can understand the actual logic in practices.

I'll get simple: if 4.12.2 AI has a firing solution on you, you need to JINK as hard as possible, press tab+8, tab+9+1, and just pray an AI comes to help you before the ennemy AI gets help. Play the AI with same respect as if it was old FB_Viks from VEF days, try to deny a shoot for as long as possible and pray you'll be helped (well Viks would shoot your helping mates too but that's another story).

If you're 100% sure you're on 1 vs 1 try the overshoot (rolling scissors is the best option to me), but there's more than 50% chance you'll get shot in the process.

My usual experience is an AI shooting me at what seems impossible deflection while i'm chasing another one, scoring at least a few hits and impairing greatly my manoeuverability (if not directly getting my pilot or engine), then it's just a question of how long till i die or friendly AI come to rescue my sorry ass.

Sure it's challenging and all, but is it really fun ? I liked the days when i saw tracers passing me and had a chance to defend without getting instantly killed most of the times (it happened but seldom). I think TD/HSFX is good for online and online training (QMB practice), but UP3/DBW/TFM is much better for campaigns.

[Jumoschwanz]

Hi Flanker.

Your best friend is always going to be experience. There is no other magic wand or trick that is going to turn your luck around.

By coincidence I did a video of a Lagg dodging two Bf109s a while ago and put it up here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mBCd36CZ84


I never felt uncomfortable watching an enemy fighter come in from my six to attack, there are a number of videos on my channel showing fighters attacking my six and ending up on the losing end. My least favorite is the head-on confrontation because they often end up in a collision or both planes getting fatal hits.

If you ever want to meet up online and practice that is fine with me, I will fly the Lagg and you can fly whatever else you want from any year and save the tracks of what we do in case something worthwhile comes out of it.

I always try to fly hard settings when I can, to me anything else is gaming and not simming.

S!

[mark_009_vn]

Sure it's challenging and all, but is it really fun ? I liked the days when i saw tracers passing me and had a chance to defend without getting instantly killed most of the times (it happened but seldom). I think TD/HSFX is good for online and online training (QMB practice), but UP3/DBW/TFM is much better for campaigns.

I for once glad those days when the AI shot like a blind man with no limbs are all over... Back on 4.07, the AI shooting model is critically flawed, the only thing you need to beat a Rookie pilot is to fly level, he would almost always empty all his ammo aiming at a patch of cloud to your left...

[rollnloop]

I'm very happy to fight 4.12.2 AI in QMB. :)

Just not in campaign :-x