weapons firepower

[pandacat]

I just wonder how a weapon's potency is calculated in game. My hunch tells me that it's solely based on caliber. If that's so, then the game is overlooking an important factor of a weapon's true destructive power: rate of fire. For a simple example, let's compare a synchronized 50cal firing thru prop arc with a nonsync one on the wing. Nonsync one would definitely have higher rate of fire. Given same amount of time, wing gun will put more weight into the same area as nose gun. But is that so in game? I am not so sure. I believe the true firepower algorithim should include all factors such as rate of fire, weight of each projectile, explosive force of the projectile and speed of the projectile etc. 20mm may be awesome with its explosive projectiles, but 50cal with higher rate of fire and higher impact speed shouldn't be lightyears away from it.

[IceFire]

I can't find the table right now with the listing... but IL-2 uses a fairly sophisticated system for weapons modelling. Its not done 100% right and they made some odd shotcuts in some fine details as things went along (mostly surrounding specific guns) but by and large its a lot more sophisticated than most people realize.

Weapon rate of fire is a very important aspect. Its not done properly for all weapons but it is taken into account for the synchronized weapons on the Russian and German aircraft. For example the UBK on the Hurricane II Field Mod has a different rate of fire and muzzle velocity compared to the UBS on the Yaks.

The weight of shells, the type of shell (AP, HE, MINE, API, APIT, T, etc.), individual velocity considerations (not all shells in a belting will travel at exactly the same speed or with the same ballistics), and so forth are all taken into account.

The only problem in my mind with heavy machine gun versus cannon modelling is that internal components aren't as completely modelled as I would like to see. Cliffs of Dover, Rise of Flight, and the forthcoming IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad are all taking the internal damage modelling several steps further. Damage to individual components can lead to cascading failures. IL-2 is a bit simpler and it surrounds hitting the internal component or not. So the type of damage that a .50cal does is largely internal while the 20mm and higher tend to do more of the "rip a wing off" variety of damage which IL-2 does fairly well. That said... the Browning .50cal, MG13, Ho103 are all fairly potent and can drop a fighter with not that many bullets. With US machine guns and the typical 6 gun arrangement you need to be very conscious of the convergence point.

In practice different units used different techniques but the IL-2 method for convergence on US aircraft is the point convergence. All bullets are set to converge onto a VERY small point. Its what some US aces used but the typical US pilot used a more scattered approach. It was a community request that changed it to point convergence. So it means that either you're going to be VERY good with the .50cals or you aren't and its really up to pilot skill to get the most out of it.

I still struggle, but the problem is with my aim... not specifically the weapon. When I'm having a good day I'll cut a FW190 in half with a short burst... or a bad day and I get superficial hits and nothing really happens.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

I've never had much luck killing stuff with MG131s alone personally, but the other .50s work just fine (especially the UB, which is a scary piece of work). Even the 2 Brownings in the P-39Q-10 can cause a lot of hurt on their own.

Funnily enough, with just the smoketrails and custom sounds from 4.12 my confidence in killing stuff with the .50s has soared. Previously the American setup of wing mounted .50s were a bit hit-and-miss (literally) for me, but I've suddenly had a huge jump in accuracy and overall lethality since the patch.

[MaxGunz]

We were told since the start that impact angle and relative speed of the projectile and target go into it.

Then whatever part is hit absorbs up to some damage before any shots will pass through it. Like a tailwheel assembly and various parts you hit from dead six that you should be shooting from deflection to get around all that and directly at your target, the pilot/controls/engine.






Author:
Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM





Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive

such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API


Table itself.
==========================


Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

M4
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0

MG 15
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

MG 81
// AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0

MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

NS-37
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406

APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0

NS-45
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052

AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0

PaK40
// HEIT

HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

ShVAK
// APIT - HE

APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001

HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

VYa
// SIT - API - API

SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008


-------------

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.




Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

[IceFire]

I've never had much luck killing stuff with MG131s alone personally, but the other .50s work just fine (especially the UB, which is a scary piece of work). Even the 2 Brownings in the P-39Q-10 can cause a lot of hurt on their own.

Funnily enough, with just the smoketrails and custom sounds from 4.12 my confidence in killing stuff with the .50s has soared. Previously the American setup of wing mounted .50s were a bit hit-and-miss (literally) for me, but I've suddenly had a huge jump in accuracy and overall lethality since the patch.

Even the MG131s and the Ho103 can be used to really put the hurt on. You need a little more specific aim to say the engine or a fuel tank to really put the hurt on quickly but a Ki-61 with four of them for example can make one pass and cripple a P-40 or P-39 and seriously damage a Corsair or Hellcat. The Browning .50cals or the Berezin UB are the stars... as you say even two .50cals in the P-39s nose are absolutely deadly.

[pandacat]

Regarding aiming directly from 6 and hitting tail assembly, I saw many WWII gun cam footages where bf109 got blown to pieces by p51's 6guns or got wings ripped off when getting hit directly from behind.

[IceFire]

Regarding aiming directly from 6 and hitting tail assembly, I saw many WWII gun cam footages where bf109 got blown to pieces by p51's 6guns or got wings ripped off when getting hit directly from behind.

Works in-game too... try shooting a Bf109 at exact convergence. You'll rip em to shreds if the convergence is close enough in.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

Even the MG131s and the Ho103 can be used to really put the hurt on. You need a little more specific aim to say the engine or a fuel tank to really put the hurt on quickly but a Ki-61 with four of them for example can make one pass and cripple a P-40 or P-39 and seriously damage a Corsair or Hellcat. The Browning .50cals or the Berezin UB are the stars... as you say even two .50cals in the P-39s nose are absolutely deadly.

I actually started a dynamic campaign in the Ki-61 Ko yesterday and I was pretty impressed at how easily it can knock down a Corsair with a well aimed burst. I guess I'm just spoiled by MG151s when it comes to German fighters though :-P

[MaxGunz]

Regarding aiming directly from 6 and hitting tail assembly, I saw many WWII gun cam footages where bf109 got blown to pieces by p51's 6guns or got wings ripped off when getting hit directly from behind.

That's from selected films, the cherries someone picked. You might have seen an oxygen cylinder or similar explode too. I have seen plenty where that doesn't happen.

Do they tell you what happened to the target before? Or how many G's stress the ripped off wings were under when they ripped?

Long ago I complained about near invulnerable engines on a Russian bomber. Then someone posted screenies of the wing landing gear which is very strong in IL2 as are tail struts and some structural parts. IRL you don't have to destroy a whole seat armor to put a round or two through the back. Or maybe the hits numbers are just to make a hole, I dunno.

Have you ever made NTRK files and reviewed them with ARCADE=1 set in the config? If you haven't then you should do that with playback. When it comes near time that you shot, pause, set the view on the gunsight so you see it line up, slow time down to 1/4 and when the shooting starts, pause. Jump the view to the target and slew around till you see your plane shooting and tracers and bring the view in so you can see the target and what shots hit. IL2 in ARCADE makes an arrow showing the path the bullet hit BUT not how far it penetrated. The arrow point is not the shot, just the line it traveled.
Playing or practicing in that mode, you see white dots on the target where you hit. They stay a few seconds only. You know where you hit, it is a training tool you can self-answer some questions with.

[MaxGunz]

I actually started a dynamic campaign in the Ki-61 Ko yesterday and I was pretty impressed at how easily it can knock down a Corsair with a well aimed burst. I guess I'm just spoiled by MG151s when it comes to German fighters though :-P

Play early Yaks. You will get better fire discipline. They fly nice.

[pandacat]

Yes, you may be right about cherry picking. IRL, there are still some cherries to pick, but do you even have any cherry to pick in-game at all? I admit that shredding wings do happen ingame somtimes, but I have never seen 50cal exploding target directly from 6. Maybe at an angle, diving or climbing shots, but not in lvl fly and directly at 6. Also you are correct about it is the G-stress that ripped off damaged wing, not the bullets themselves, but isn't G-stress also modelled ingame? Or are we simply flying in airless vaccum ingame?

[Laurwin]

Well, being at convergence distance is ideal for most killing power with 0.50cal MGs. Either at exact convergence or +/- 50m within the convergence distance.

When you got 200m convergence, and your shooting at enemy from 500m distance, taking 1 sec snapshots at 90deg deflection bandits, don't expect the enemy to explode!

On the other hand, 0.50cal tends to kill and wound enemy pilots eventually. High rate of fire tends to help in this also, in my opinion.

Even fw-190 burns up nicely, when you hit his main fuel tank, behind pilot seat, a couple of times :grin:

I think aiming along the centre fuselage is good with these 0.50cals (unless you're against Japanese planes, wingroot is excellent target for those)
If, you hit the engine, or pilot, enemy is going down soon. Center fuselage hit can probably light up main fuel tank, or kill cables. Rear fuselage would destroy elevator and rudder tabs, and cut cables.

[majorfailure]

Yes, you may be right about cherry picking. IRL, there are still some cherries to pick, but do you even have any cherry to pick in-game at all? I admit that shredding wings do happen ingame somtimes, but I have never seen 50cal exploding target directly from 6. Maybe at an angle, diving or climbing shots, but not in lvl fly and directly at 6. Also you are correct about it is the G-stress that ripped off damaged wing, not the bullets themselves, but isn't G-stress also modelled ingame? Or are we simply flying in airless vaccum ingame?

vs. German/Italian opposition, explosion or even wingloss happens rather seldom (And when shooting from direct six, against 190s it should not happen at all -armor protects the fuel tank from that angle). But against Japanese planes you get the total destruction quite often.
Using Italian SAFAT guns, I've ripped wings of Hurricanes more than once, and often their wings were loaded when shot at. So there may be a combined effect of G load and damage modeled.

[MaxGunz]

It takes less damage to break a structure that is under more load. In IL2 it is supposed to be that a damaged plane will take less G's before airframe failure and there's a progressive system of stress and damages behind it. IIRC that started after 2007.

[sniperton]

Using Italian SAFAT guns, I've ripped wings of Hurricanes more than once, and often their wings were loaded when shot at.

I would say, those wings had to be heavily loaded to achieve a wing-rip with a pair of SAFATs. Otherwise SAFATs are near hopeless unless you aim at the engine, the tank, or the pilot, in my experience.

[pandacat]

vs. German/Italian opposition, explosion or even wingloss happens rather seldom (And when shooting from direct six, against 190s it should not happen at all -armor protects the fuel tank from that angle). But against Japanese planes you get the total destruction quite often.
Using Italian SAFAT guns, I've ripped wings of Hurricanes more than once, and often their wings were loaded when shot at. So there may be a combined effect of G load and damage modeled.

That's why I tend to fly a lot in Pacific theatre. LOL. Zeros are easy. However, some of the bomber planes are tough. B5Ns are pretty tough from direct 6. Sometimes felt even tougher than IL-2. But if shooting from diving, I have exploded them quite a few times. Betties is also an interesting story. When shooting from directly behind, it feels like your bullets all went into a void. That kinda makes sense cuz the bombers tend to have a lot of internal space in their fuselage. But their engines are weak. Several short bursts can set them on fire.

[Laurwin]

with those Japanese bombers try this exercise to see how tough they really are!
I remember I was shooting at Val dive bombers with my corsair, they seemed lke tough planes. But on closer inspection as I dove past and paused the game, I saw the whole plane was littered with bullet holes and crew was dead. From rear sector firing passes, about from about 7-5 o clock


load up game
select quick battles
on the bottom of the screen in the middle, there should be save and load button
load up the battle of midway battle from there.

You can select whatever plane you want really, but I like to pick corsair and try to maximize my hitrate, and maximize my kills, but also sometimes go for the one pass kills, regardless of ammo expenditure.

I hope these quick missions are in stock game, because I was playing my stock game and it worked just fine. I doubt I've ever downloaded or installed custom player made missions in this game (other than strictly player built campaigns)

[majorfailure]

That's why I tend to fly a lot in Pacific theatre. LOL. Zeros are easy. However, some of the bomber planes are tough. B5Ns are pretty tough from direct 6. Sometimes felt even tougher than IL-2. But if shooting from diving, I have exploded them quite a few times. Betties is also an interesting story. When shooting from directly behind, it feels like your bullets all went into a void. That kinda makes sense cuz the bombers tend to have a lot of internal space in their fuselage. But their engines are weak. Several short bursts can set them on fire.
B5Ns tend to go KABOOOM when hit dead centre at convergence. Can get funny results when they are in close formation -I've more than once killed planes I didn't shoot at that way. And their wing tanks are touchy, too. Structurally they are tough though.
Bettys suffer from their Achilles heel they had in real life, too -their unprotected wet wings. Don't try shooting from direct 6, if possible make high (and if you don't want to be hit by the tail gunner also off-angle) passes, even from directly above, the tanks present large enough hitting zones that way, and almost anything hitting them makes them burn (especially good are .30s!)

I would say, those wings had to be heavily loaded to achieve a wing-rip with a pair of SAFATs. Otherwise SAFATs are near hopeless unless you aim at the engine, the tank, or the pilot, in my experience.
I may be that SAFATS have been a little upgraded in one of the last patches.
But they still are among they most difficult guns to get results with, you are right there - one needs to aim for specific parts of the plane, the pilot is the easiest to get a kill with these buggers IMHO.
Vs. Hurricanes, it is doable to shoot a 4-5secs burst into the tail section, and usually it will rip -may not be the most effective way, but works. And after a prolonged time trying to down something with SAFATs, you learn to shoot at the parts of the enemys plane that count, so using these guns actually improves your shooting skills.