View Full Version : Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)
Haklangr
02-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Hello all. I've recently picked up the game, and I've read a few basic guides for it. I think I know most of the basics: I can fly/recover/take off/land alright, and all that. I have the settings all the way over on the "Realistic" side -- except I do have map icons, player map icon, and minimap path on, because I'm rubbish at navigating and want to concentrate on mastering the flight portion first. I am trying to make sure I know what all the gauges in the cockpits of my chosen planes are, though, as I do intend to turn every "cheating" aid off eventually.
Anyway, I've been flying a few missions, but I'm having trouble getting to grips with the enemy. Current example: a flight of enemy planes (Russian LaGGs? Il-2s? I can't remember -- it's a Bf109G-6 mission) appears heading directly toward me and my wingmen, at about the same altitude. Considering our respective planes... what do I do?
It seems to me like the name of the game is getting behind the enemy... on their six, so to speak. My idea is to head off to the side, then turn to try to end up behind them. (Sometimes I think about trying to do this vertically -- a loop -- but I've not tried it yet.) I read somewhere I should not attempt shots with greater than 30 degrees Angle Off, but I've not yet managed to end up within 30 degrees of directly behind my target... or even within shooting distance (300m); I think the closest I've come to having a viable shot was 60 degrees off, 400m away, and that didn't last long. It's quite difficult to keep the enemy in my sights, or to stay on/get on their tail at all!
I think I may be ending up getting out-turned, but perhaps I should be able to out-turn them. I'm not sure what to do if they can out-turn me -- how do I end up behind 'em? Is it viable to attack from another direction, like above (but in front)? I know "boom 'n' zoom" tactics are viable, but I'm not really sure how.
Another problem I know I have is that I don't know how to control my speed at all; I always end up zooming by in a split second when I do get somewhat close (if they haven't somehow turned around and zoomed back by me). I can only think to slow down by switching from combat flaps to landing flaps (or by pointing the plane up...?); I've tried to get enemy planes to overshoot me, but no luck. What should I be doing with the throttle, anyway? I nearly always put it at about 95% and leave it at that (I don't mess with prop pitch yet, so I assume the RPMs are being kept at a healthy level and my engine is not overheating, heh). Perhaps I should be using the throttle...
Thanks in advance, from the bottom of my wanna-be-pilot's heart; I'm continuing to look around for guides, of course, and I will keep reading, but any and all advice is appreciated.
Jumoschwanz
02-22-2013, 01:11 AM
I have some videos here of some tracks I have saved from the last ten years flying IL2, you can watch them and maybe pick up some ideas, and also see how the throttle and flaps are used at different times. Most all of them are from the pilots perspective and all are made while flying with nothing but a Microsoft Precision2 stick, all views are panned using only a hat-switch and buttons, to show that no fancy hardware or software is needed to have fun with the sim.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jumoschwanz?feature=results_main
Besides getting ideas from books and others the only thing you can do is spend hours practicing and trying different things to see what works for you and getting to know what your favorite aircraft can and can not do.
Good luck.
Haklangr
02-22-2013, 01:55 AM
I have some videos here of some tracks I have saved from the last ten years flying IL2, you can watch them and maybe pick up some ideas, and also see how the throttle and flaps are used at different times. Most all of them are from the pilots perspective and all are made while flying with nothing but a Microsoft Precision2 stick, all views are panned using only a hat-switch and buttons, to show that no fancy hardware or software is needed to have fun with the sim.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jumoschwanz?feature=results_main
I just watched your newest video (I think); that was beautiful. That's what I imagined when I finally bought a joystick and this sim. Great channel; thanks. :) If you ever have the time I would very much enjoy a quick walk-through of one of your videos (e.g., "at this point I wanted to make a slow turn for reason x, so I did such-and-such with the radiator and flaps..."); no pressure, though, as I understand it'sa bit of trouble.
Besides getting ideas from books and others
Recommendations in this area (from anyone) are appreciated, definitely. I hear tell of maneuvers like "flying scissors" and others, but I have no idea what they are! I've got a PDF called In Pursuit that I've heard is good, though.
panzer1b
02-22-2013, 01:55 AM
tactics are extremely hard to explian in a quick post
since you mentioned the bf109G i can give you a few tips on using it, as its my second most used plane after the fw190
for starters the G6 and later are not turn fighters, so unles you are dogfighting a very bad turning plane do not try to outturn
its a energy/vertical fighter, try to maintain altitude and speed and take shots at him when you can, never get slow in the G6
now the lagg3 as you said before was ur enemy, that will outturn you but is a bad climber as well as slow, so outrun it and outclimb it
as for speed control you really shouldnt be trying to slow down much especially against a more agile turn fighter like the lagg3, only do that if its a badly maneuvering plane
otherwise keep practicing and probably most importantly get good at aiming at high speed
Haklangr
02-22-2013, 02:00 AM
tactics are extremely hard to explian in a quick post
since you mentioned the bf109G i can give you a few tips on using it, as its my second most used plane after the fw190
for starters the G6 and later are not turn fighters, so unles you are dogfighting a very bad turning plane do not try to outturn
its a energy/vertical fighter, try to maintain altitude and speed and take shots at him when you can, never get slow in the G6
now the lagg3 as you said before was ur enemy, that will outturn you but is a bad climber as well as slow, so outrun it and outclimb it
as for speed control you really shouldnt be trying to slow down much especially against a more agile turn fighter like the lagg3, only do that if its a badly maneuvering plane
otherwise keep practicing and probably most importantly get good at aiming at high speed
Thanks! Glad to see a 109 pilot here to give me some tips. :D Okay, so as I understand it, the 109G-6 is a good "Boom and Zoom" fighter, and as you say I say I ought to be faster than the Lagg-3 and a better climber. However, I'm not quite sure how to use these advantages... how does one line up a shot, even if one is faster, if the enemy can always turn away?! Zoom at the sucker before it can get too far and hope you hit it with a quick burst as you pass by? 'Cause that's what I'm thinking of trying next, heh.
***
Update
managed to score my first kills. :) Still absolutely rubbish at shooting down anything except bombers, and at getting enemy fighters off my tail too, though.
majorfailure
02-22-2013, 12:46 PM
It seems to me like the name of the game is getting behind the enemy... on their six, so to speak. My idea is to head off to the side, then turn to try to end up behind them. (Sometimes I think about trying to do this vertically -- a loop -- but I've not tried it yet.) I read somewhere I should not attempt shots with greater than 30 degrees Angle Off, but I've not yet managed to end up within 30 degrees of directly behind my target... or even within shooting distance (300m); I think the closest I've come to having a viable shot was 60 degrees off, 400m away, and that didn't last long. It's quite difficult to keep the enemy in my sights, or to stay on/get on their tail at all!
Try to get closer. Most of the time shooting beyond 200m is a waste of ammo. And set your convergence accordingly. Angle off shots are more diffcult to make - but are more likley to hit something not well protected. One of the best in WW2 -Hartmann-always tried to set up high angle deflection shots against his foes because they are unpredictable.
I think I may be ending up getting out-turned, but perhaps I should be able to out-turn them. I'm not sure what to do if they can out-turn me -- how do I end up behind 'em? Is it viable to attack from another direction, like above (but in front)? I know "boom 'n' zoom" tactics are viable, but I'm not really sure how.
Get into the fight with altitude advantage. Then attack from above. The enemy will evade - if not he should be an easy kill. If he evades -try to follow him for a short time only -then get back up to altitude. That way you use your altitude advantage throughout the fight -and usually avoid getting shot down. Getting kills is not easy that way - but you will learn to predict the enemy evasion patterns in time and then where to shoot at.
Get to know the enymy planes -fly them in QMB. Or look up their performance data in IL2Compare.
Another problem I know I have is that I don't know how to control my speed at all; I always end up zooming by in a split second when I do get somewhat close (if they haven't somehow turned around and zoomed back by me). I can only think to slow down by switching from combat flaps to landing flaps (or by pointing the plane up...?); I've tried to get enemy planes to overshoot me, but no luck. What should I be doing with the throttle, anyway? I nearly always put it at about 95% and leave it at that (I don't mess with prop pitch yet, so I assume the RPMs are being kept at a healthy level and my engine is not overheating, heh). Perhaps I should be using the throttle...
Yes the throttle is essential for fighting - if you don't have one yet, consider buying a HOTAS. And with the Bf109 - its fine when you are always faster than the enemy - that way you will live. Prop pitch in a BF109 is automatic -so you needn't bother with that.
Thanks in advance, from the bottom of my wanna-be-pilot's heart; I'm continuing to look around for guides, of course, and I will keep reading, but any and all advice is appreciated.
If you like the Bf109 - then consider using another variant -the G-6 is IMHO the weakest of the bunch. The F-4 is a pilots dream and the enemys nightmare. Faster than anything the enemy can throw at you - and outclimbs anything.
Don't get discouraged when you can't outfly the enemy like seen in vids - many people here play IL2 for years - and have thousands of virtual flying hours. IL2 takes time to learn, but it still is fun to play after years.
And last: Clouds are your friends. Use them. If you watch the artificial horizon to not get disoriented.
panzer1b
02-22-2013, 03:38 PM
a few more tips i can give for gunnery at high speeds
when behind and moving in close keep sights below till at around 300m. then aim above where their top is
this is hard to explain but aim where you think they will pull up ( as most evasive maneuvers are a pull up)
then just as you notice them pulling up fire, u should be around 100-200m away so its enough room to compensate for the shot a bit
this requires alot of practice and u need to learn to anticipate what he will do but it bworks wonders in high speed interception
if he does not break before you cross 150m then just aim directly at him till he breaks off or preferably ignites and is roasted extra crispy
this tactic is temporarily countered by pushing down on the stick but if he does that easy eblly shott, all you loose is a few sec@onds
as for high angle shots llike from the side its just a matter of anticipation and shooting ahead of where he is
no real tricks to it, just lots of practice, harder if hes not flyin straight ahead
and as for the bf109 id reccomend the g2, it has most preformance of the early ones but turn radius and also has enough firepower to kill most
f4 and f2 with the 20mm field mod is next up, g6 and up are terrible at turn fighting and g6 or g6 late is bad at high altitude where the g2 will outrun outclimb ect
the k4 is noot bad but ive never really liked it too much as it forces me to use the 108 and has beyond crap turn radius
anyways this tactic is bigger needed for the fw190 as it cant keep a sustained turn with anything buut at high speed
but most of all practice, this works for me, but u might find a better tactic or a different one that works
and if you like the 30mm death ray then give at least twice the lead, very slow rounds that take a long time to reach the bandit
and try to fly the enemy plane against ai, itll help you determine its advantages or disadvantages, then exploit em like nothing else
also about how to exploit cliimbing and speed, just keep your nose up a bit and throttle at a reasonable 85-90% in climb to not overheat very fast
and lower throttle to 50-60ish in a steep dive or 70 if shallow
just dont exceed 700 ina dive as anything more rips u apart....and dont climb to rapidly or to shallow, rapid climb is mainly if you want to do a hammerhead, not too useful otherwise as u become slow and potentially get hit
also pick 2 or so planes to get good with, only fly the rest occasionally as its very hard to get good in every plane
although 109s are all similar so whether its a f2 or a k4 all that changes are top speed, climb rate, and turn rate, late ones more imp to stay fast, earlys u can outturn a few planes and most late war ones
MaxGunz
02-22-2013, 05:45 PM
The air combat bible:
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361558294&sr=1-1&keywords=robert+shaw+fighter+combat
Used: $13.74
Got mine in 1998 for $35 new.
More than half is on missiles. You don't need to read those parts for IL2 but do read the preface as it tells how to take and use what is written.
Warning: that book reads like chewing through bricks. It is a technical book, has no nonsense or fluff.
K_Freddie
02-22-2013, 06:35 PM
Try the Me109-G6/AS. It's a nimble little plane, and fast.
Using the 20mm instead of the 30mm cannon keeps it light, but don't shoot until your prop is chewing off their tails.
The ME109 has excellent handling characteristics from stall speed (especially here) to about 400kmh. above this the aerolons get heavy (slow).
:)
MaxGunz
02-22-2013, 10:40 PM
Slowing down: 1st to say is don't waste your speed. Best way to slow down is to rise up!
If you are attacking at greater speed than your target but not hugely greater then use yoyo and barrel to stay behind and take occasional sniping shots.
You will fly a longer path, your speed will not take you out in front if you do this properly and yes it takes practice. Best way is to set up a mission with just you and 1 friendly plane flying waypoints around the map at less than high speed. You don't have to shoot, just practice yoyo's and wide spirals behind your leader. Do not try to stay on his tail.
in practice you take the sniping shots as much to force the target to turn -hard- as to hit him. When he does, rise and follow from above (rising slows you down, rise to your better turning speed) then when he straightens out to regain speed you drop to snipe and go back to yoyos as necessary.
When the target slows enough he will not be able to turn well without losing alt. When he runs out of alt to lose, he will turn like a sick cow and be very easy to shoot.
During all this you have the higher speed and retain the ability to rise above. Don't blow it in hard turning, that is what you want him to do.
That is the energy fighter's game. The slower plane may try the angles fight where your main game is to sucker the energy fighter into hard turns to lose his speed advantage. If his plane is poor turning -relative to yours at lower speed- then when he slows down you have a chance to get him.
I would rather have a speed advantage than flat turn advantage especially on a server with multiple enemies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably the best thing you can do now is to find a good squad and join.
Jumoschwanz
02-23-2013, 01:06 PM
If you ever have the time I would very much enjoy a quick walk-through of one of your videos
I know there are a lot of videos to go through there, but in many of them you can expand the text I wrote for them and in some cases read a commentary in the hundreds of words. If you run across one that you particularly like and want more information than I have given then let me know and I am sure I can go more deeply into it.
A lot of the videos I threw up were just because I thought they were showing a bit of IL2 history. Some of the tracks are from 2003 when IL2 first got the capability to record online tracks. The early videos show what was hip back then ten years ago, and as the videos march through the last ten years you can see a lot of the advances and changes in the sim and in myself.
I always concentrated on flying harder settings from the start, and also always flew mostly the Bf109 and FW190, trying to stick with them while most others switched allegiance as each patch produced one or another aircraft that were "ace makers". That said I also believe in balancing the sides in online servers and if RED was badly outnumbered I do not hesitate to jump into an allied aircraft, which can certainly help you become well-rounded and more knowledgeable.
It is important to get to know your favorite aircraft intimately, but it is very helpful to know what your opponents aircraft and armament can and can not do.
One of my favorite things to do is to find out how the aircraft I am flying is different than my opponents and using it's strengths against the other aircraft's weaknesses.
I remember the days of keeping the throttle on full during a fight, not only hampering maneuverability but also ruining the engine by the end of the fight. I know those currently that have poor throttle management and find themselves blacking out and not being able to turn with others. The throttle is as important a control as the stick and rudder pedals.
The radiator settings are going to change with each aircraft, and you may change the radiator and prop pitch settings more than once on each sortie switching back and forth between maximum performance and maximum economy. In the 109 while I am looking for trouble but not fighting I will often switch the prop pitch to 35% and back down on the throttle so the fuel will go much further, that lets me fight with a lighter aircraft and keeps me in the air longer or helps me get home. Any aircraft in IL2 can be manipulated in various ways to give it more speed or economy or engine longevity.
When I was too serious about flying IL2 and cared much more about dominating various servers, I would test the speed and acceleration of every aircraft I would be flying in or against, many dozens of them and write all that information down and memorize it so that I knew what my aircraft could do against any other.
IL2 is a fun hobby you can spend a lot of time on. Hopefully it is not your whole life though and you can find a nice spouse, get some exercise outdoors regularly in the sunshine and have some kids and other hobbies that let you get some exercise. I feel bad if I let IL2 keep me inside when the sun is shining or take up too much of my time these days. Life is short and IL2 is a very nice thing and very interesting but I see that I could have fixed up a lot more vintage motorcycles and had a lot more fun with other things in the real world with the time I spent on it.....
Haklangr
02-23-2013, 11:25 PM
Thanks all for the replies and help. I've now been able to shoot down my first enemy fighter, and many light and medium bombers. Couldn't have done it without you. :) Edit: After this post, I shot down two more (LaGG-3s)! This place is good luck!
However, a few things still confuse me:
1.) For hard turns, if I have to make one, I usually throttle down to 0% briefly, as I've seen others do; I'm not sure exactly on the best timing, though -- I usually have it on 0% throttle for the first half, then go back up to 99/110% (usually) as I pull out of the turn. What should I be doing?
2.) In the 109/a BnZ fighter, what do I do after I blow past the enemy after trying a high angle off shot? I line up the shot, and whether I miss or not I usually find myself heading away from the enemy at some high angle; I then usually try to turn around to have another go, and get a LaGG or P-39 on my tail as a result. Should I be trying for altitude or a lot of separation before doing any turning after an attack run? Is my strategy totally wrong? (Except for bombers, I don't find myself directly behind a lot of enemy planes, so I live on a diet of high angle off shots.)
Edit: After shooting down the two fighters mentioned above, I think just not bleeding off any speed and attaining a wide separation before trying another run is the key. I'm avoiding hard turns (and turning fights) and using speed and altitude to set up shots/disengage. No flaps except combat flaps for particularly hard turns, throttle down for dives and turns and up to 110% sometimes, second-widest FOV: big improvements along with knowing what tactics (speed, altitude... gunnery practice!) to use with a fast but wide-turning fighter. :) But if I'm getting anything wrong still please tell me -- I'm hardly an ace, even after my magnificent third fighter kill...
I definitely don't know what to do when an enemy is on my six: I assume, with LaGG-3s and P-39s, I'm gonna want to try to outrun or outclimb them, but how to avoid getting poured full of lead while I do this....
Edit 2: Well, those tactics didn't work at all against P-39s. Altitude and speed did alright, but I couldn't outrun them -- so when my diving ambush failed and I tried to disengage, I just wasted a lot of time (seems they can't quite catch me either). I tried again and got one while coming down from on high, and got a second one by engaging in a turning fight. (Then I got shot down by a Yak of some kind...) Either the 109 can maneuver better than the P-39 (I've heard this so, but I think at higher altitudes than I was at -- maybe not), or I just got lucky.
This game is getting extremely fun, though... I'm glad I stuck with it through the frustrating. :)
MaxGunz
02-24-2013, 02:39 AM
Thanks all for the replies and help. I've now been able to shoot down my first enemy fighter, and many light and medium bombers. Couldn't have done it without you. :) Edit: After this post, I shot down two more! This place is good luck!
However, a few things still confuse me:
1.) For hard turns, if I have to make one, I usually throttle down to 0% briefly, as I've seen others do; I'm not sure exactly on the best timing, though -- I usually have it on 0% throttle for the first half, then go back up to 99/110% (usually). What should I be doing?
If you have to make one when you are the attacker then you probably didn't plan far enough ahead and aren't thinking because as the attacker you never -have- to turn hard and are probably being suckered.
2.) In the 109/a BnZ fighter, what do I do after I blow past the enemy after trying a high angle off shot? I line up the shot, and whether I miss or not I usually find myself heading away from the enemy at some high angle; I then usually try to turn around to have another go, and get a LaGG or P-39 on my tail as a result. Should I be trying for altitude or a lot of separation before doing any turning after an attack run? Is my strategy totally wrong? (Except for bombers, I don't find myself directly behind a lot of enemy planes, so I live on a diet of high angle off shots.)
Erich Hartmann the 109 Ace with 352 credited kills would plan his attacks to provide an off-angle behind the target exit every time. He did not stay around to mix it up. Go in, approach a point off one side of the target, make "the rude turn" into the enemy and fire then exit behind the target crossing his path and keep running whether he hit or not. It's insanely hard in limited-view sims, he'd be 50m off the target's left wingtip when he turned but I find that turning in from 150m-200m works well. Just don't take the time to aim, when to fire is a matter of timing, less than a second. You'll be so close that aiming is a waste. Make a short burst while pulling to get behind the target. In practice you'll ram many times before you get it right once. With some kind of head tracking (like TIR) it should be a little easier.
Hartmann always did that with much greater speed than the target and exited too fast to chase or turn 135+ deg in time to get a shot. Generally he achieved surprise and if he lost that on the way in he aborted the attack. His record speaks about his tactics and he survived the war.
About hard turns in general:
* don't hard turn more than 45 degrees to make a shot if you are not turn fighting.
* horizontal turns are -the worst- in terms of speed bleed. Use the vertical, Luke, Gravity is "The Force" you want to use.
* watch your speed, don't get even halfway slow and if you start to slow down much, loosen up on the stick till you don't.
*** Don't get Greedy. That is the #1 mistake. Instead of a hard turn, plan a series of moves to give yourself a better shot while retaining your combined speed/height energy.
Edit: After shooting down the two fighters mentioned above, I think just not bleeding off any speed and attaining a wide separation before trying another run is the key.
Good thinking! Keep it up!
I'm avoiding hard turns (and turning fights) and using speed and altitude to set up shots/disengage. No flaps except combat flaps for particularly hard turns, throttle down for dives and turns and up to 110% sometimes, second-widest FOV: big improvements along with knowing what tactics (speed, altitude... gunnery practice!) to use with a fast but wide-turning fighter. :) But if I'm getting anything wrong still please tell me -- I'm hardly an ace, even after my magnificent third fighter kill...
I definitely don't know what to do when an enemy is on my six: I assume, with LaGG-3s and P-39s, I'm gonna want to try to outrun or outclimb them, but how to avoid getting poured full of lead while I do this....
You can be hard to hit in a barrel roll, especially from close on your six. Johnnie Johnson told about in a P-47 when a German was on his tail he would pull up and roll -- if the German followed he would end up in front.
From farther behind, then a shallow climbing spiral (defensive spiral) will make you very hard to hit and give you a great position to reverse the attack if the enemy drops off. One P-38 Ace shook 4 190's that tried to follow him up. All single-engine props have a better and worse side to turn due to torgue and P-factor while the P-38 does not. As each one tried to pull lead on him they stalled and spun out. He went home rather than pursue but what happens online?
A hard flat turn can keep you safe but leave you more vulnerable than you were. Even if you don't get hit the enemy just scored if you slow down and he doesn't. If you can get someone to crash then that's a "maneuver kill" which IMO counts as more than a "guns kill".
Learn your Basic Combat Maneuvers (BCM's) in practice flight against NO ONE until you don't have to think about them. If you have a load of other things going on (ie COMBAT) then you won't learn as well.
Then learn your Advanced Combat Maneuvers (ACM's) the same way. Put it all together when practicing gunnery and then go to combat to tighten up on the whole including Situational Analysis (SA), knowing what's going on around you.
Another real big topic to research: Energy Management.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers
majorfailure
02-24-2013, 11:42 AM
1.) For hard turns, if I have to make one, I usually throttle down to 0% briefly, as I've seen others do; I'm not sure exactly on the best timing, though -- I usually have it on 0% throttle for the first half, then go back up to 99/110% (usually) as I pull out of the turn. What should I be doing?
Try adding an upward element to the turn - not exactly following the enemys path. Called a high yo-yo. Or try to turn not at all. Pull up somewhat, and then roll your plane to where you want to go, level out again - facing the direction you wanted to turn to but with less energy loss - because you used the roll axis to change your direction.
Edit 2: Well, those tactics didn't work at all against P-39s. Altitude and speed did alright, but I couldn't outrun them -- so when my diving ambush failed and I tried to disengage, I just wasted a lot of time (seems they can't quite catch me either). I tried again and got one while coming down from on high, and got a second one by engaging in a turning fight. (Then I got shot down by a Yak of some kind...) Either the 109 can maneuver better than the P-39 (I've heard this so, but I think at higher altitudes than I was at -- maybe not), or I just got lucky.
This game is getting extremely fun, though... I'm glad I stuck with it through the frustrating. :)
At an altitude below 5000m I's say that is the best match you can get - the P-39 is a superb plane in the hands of a good pilot. Powerful armament, good roll rate, fast, Russian pilots loved them. Try to add some climb when running from them - as your Bf climbs better. And you get them up higher, where they feel the thin air more than you do - P-39 has a full throttle height of ~3000m, you have ~7000m. Don't turnfight - they are better than you - and you will get bogged down.
Haklangr
02-24-2013, 05:46 PM
Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.
If you have to make one when you are the attacker then you probably didn't plan far enough ahead and aren't thinking because as the attacker you never -have- to turn hard and are probably being suckered.
Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.
Erich Hartmann the 109 Ace with 352 credited kills would plan his attacks to provide an off-angle behind the target exit every time. He did not stay around to mix it up. Go in, approach a point off one side of the target, make "the rude turn" into the enemy and fire then exit behind the target crossing his path and keep running whether he hit or not. It's insanely hard in limited-view sims, he'd be 50m off the target's left wingtip when he turned but I find that turning in from 150m-200m works well. Just don't take the time to aim, when to fire is a matter of timing, less than a second. You'll be so close that aiming is a waste. Make a short burst while pulling to get behind the target. In practice you'll ram many times before you get it right once. With some kind of head tracking (like TIR) it should be a little easier.
Hartmann always did that with much greater speed than the target and exited too fast to chase or turn 135+ deg in time to get a shot. Generally he achieved surprise and if he lost that on the way in he aborted the attack. His record speaks about his tactics and he survived the war.
Hartmann is definitely the one to imitate in the Bf-109... incredible. :) I'm trying to do this, as it seems to have been more than a little effective, but as I mention above I don't seem to be able to approach and exit at a high enough speed to get away from P-39s -- maybe I just have to work on not losing all my dive speed on approach, though. I also don't get nearly that close before making "the rude turn" (bit of Hartmann terminology there?) -- I gather Hartmann ended up flying almost alongside them before turning, whereas I often feel I must aim to intersect their path from a much greater distance, else risk losing them. This might be because I find it difficult to achieve the element of surprise, though, especially after my initial approach and I'm in the thick of it.
Try adding an upward element to the turn - not exactly following the enemys path. Called a high yo-yo. Or try to turn not at all. Pull up somewhat, and then roll your plane to where you want to go, level out again - facing the direction you wanted to turn to but with less energy loss - because you used the roll axis to change your direction.
This has been very effective. :)
At an altitude below 5000m I's say that is the best match you can get - the P-39 is a superb plane in the hands of a good pilot.
Shit.
:p I'll try to lure 'em up, though. I tried once already, but I got oil (right?) all over my windscreen as some jerk riddled me with cannon rounds. Either that or he shot my eyes out. Seems my slow climbing spiral was lacking in either climb or spiral, heh.
majorfailure
02-24-2013, 10:36 PM
Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.
It is a terrible idea. Maybe if its the last enemy then you can try. P-39 outturn you, outroll you, and they keep their energy better when maneuvering. Up to 5000m they are almost as fast as you, around 3000m they are even faster than you. Look it up in IL2COMPARE:
http://www.zg26.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=211:il-2-compare-411&catid=53:downloads-sonstiges&Itemid=135
Or try and fly P-39 in the Quick misson builder vs. Bf109. If you don't hamfist it - and keep it reasonably fast it is an absolute joy to fly. And its armament doesn't do damage -it destroys.
Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.
The question is what do you want to achieve - survive the engagement at all costs -or shoot the enemy down at any cost. If you follow them for too long you will give away your energy advantage. You will slow down, and then, you will have no options left. If you turn -they can follow you, if you roll, they can follow you, and because you are slow, they can initially follow you in a climb or a dive and shoot at you.
Sure if you break soon enough, you will not always get a shot off - but you will learn in time where to shoot at an evading enemy.
You can try to dive even below the enemy, and then attack them with a speed advantage from below - sometimes they don't spot you.
But maybe it would be best for now if you would pick an easier enemy for now - either by setting the enemy to novice -or by not flying vs. P39. They are a very unforgiving enemy, as they leave you only the climb advantage (and the speed advantage high up).
Or fly at an earlier date - the G-2 or F-4 model of the 109 offer better performance than the G-6 -despite their earlier availability.
Haklangr
03-01-2013, 12:00 AM
Thanks again, majorfailure; you've been extremely helpful. :) Heck, you're now the reason I'm still playing, really (see below!).
Well, I'm "good" enough to shoot down a couple enemy aircraft on most missions, now -- as long as my plane is as good as or better than the enemy's. I am, however, absolutely clueless as to how to improve vs. superior machines.
Or mostly-superior. The P-39 might not be superior to the Bf-109 (G6) in every respect, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to use the few advantages I do possess... namely, climb rate and better throttle performance at altitudes above 5000m. I cannot seem to use climb rate to get away after an attack run; I get shot down every time, no matter if I point my plane near-vertical or do a gentle climbing spiral. I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!
This leaves me only altitude. Well, I can avoid getting shot down if I refuse to go low, since they refuse to go high; I've been trying to lure them up there, but no dice. It's actually extremely frustrating to me; I nearly gave up on the game altogether, in fact. Just thinking about it makes me mad still, heh. (C'mon, they can out-roll and out-run me? Haklangr is not perfect?! *throws joystick*) How is this matchup possible unless P-39 makes a huge mistake?! I know some matches, one must just avoid, but I didn't think this was one of them.
But when I'm tired of tempting myocardial rage-infarctions, I take majorfailure's advice and have been trying out other Bf (and Fw) models and fighting other enemy aircraft... and it's back to being challenging, fun, and exciting. :)
MaxGunz
03-01-2013, 06:00 AM
When you fly, are you keeping The Ball near or at center? If not, you can get more speed by doing that.
IRL you would feel when it's out (a pull to one side like when turning a car) which no sim gives. So you have to develop the habit of ruddering about enough but you can with flying practice. and spot checks on that black ball in the curved track for feedback on when you have it right. It has a minor to major effect on your speed and acceleration.
Another speed-factor is your elevator trim. Trimmed nose high, you will never get your full speed and your acceleration will suck. Trim changes with speed and power settings as it does IRL. When you want speed it's better to be trimmed a tiny bit nose down and have to pull back a teensy bit that to be trimmed nose up and have to push. But coming into tight turns you want just the opposite since you will slow down while turning and -need- more and more nose up trim!
And last for now is how hard you hold your stick (with appropriate low-humor jokes) and -not- resting the weight of your arm on the stick. In practice flight you don't need to shoot, what I was taught is to hold the stick with just 2 fingers and thumb to force myself to be a light touch on the controls. Not resting arm weight on the stick is a ***VERY*** hard habit to break. When I get it right, I maneuver much better! When I tire out and rest my hand on the stick I fly more sluggish, ham-handed.
I can't emphasize how important practicing just flying and perfecting your BCM's and ACM's and control habits is. Once you know your maneuvers well and have your habits tuned you will do better and find setting up tactics far easier.
If you could conquer this game in a month, that's all it would be worth and there wouldn't much community around it.
BTW, there are scenarios when it's stacked against you. For Russians it's worst in 41-42 and for Germans it's 44-45. If it's not the planes or lack of firepower (Early-war Russians, play as Germans first time through!) that gets you, it will be numbers. If you didn't have these, you would miss a major aspect of the historic war feeling of being the underdog.
If it gets you down then go practice flying and work on your speed and those maneuvers that failed you. Conquering maneuvers and your own habits isn't as satisfying as shooting a plane down but flying better has it's own rewards that will continue to pay past the next 100 shoot-downs.
I enjoyed "In pursuit - A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat" by Johan Kylander a lot, you can find it on the net. Was an eye-opener for me ...
Janosch
03-01-2013, 07:25 PM
G-2 has one major disadvantage... the canopy. Rearward visibility is awful. G-6 late version is a much better choice, and with the Mk108 it's a really fun plane to fly. Of course, the Mk108 is almost a mélee weapon (like a sword), and it may take some time getting used to, but it makes an awesome sound when fired!
Anyway, if one really wants to use a better plane, the best choice is the G-14. It has all the goodies: Erla canopy, the option for Mk108, MW50, decent performance and very, very stylish MG bumbs. The G-10 and such look snobbish and fake with their streamlined cowlings.
MaxGunz
03-02-2013, 12:27 PM
About moderating speed, you might want to try an energy management approach. If you're flying too fast to make your best turn, the first thing you do is zoom climb until you've slowed to a bit over best turn speed and then do your turn on the same angle you're zooming up, flying a tilted-down loop. Once over the top you come back down, regaining the speed you stored as height in the zoom lost in the dive. You don't have to come out turned 180 either, you can roll-turn while headed up or down in the zoom or dive.
If you want to accelerate a highly wing-loaded plane (like FW) at low speed best, let it drop 50m-100m in a shallow descent while you pick up speed. The drop unloads the wings, you have less induced drag while you lose height.
Roll turn: You don't have to do a banked turn to change direction, even 180 deg. You just zoom up or down 30 deg or more and roll your canopy to point where you want to go then pull back smoothly to be on track. See how fast you can reverse, every other direction change is as fast or faster. It's the fastest way to change direction and it conserves energy.
So why play turn-fight with a slower plane that slow turn better than yours? Build up a speed advantage, turn it into zoom-height he can't reach and higher than he can point his guns and -then- maneuver to bounce once you have the upper hand.
K_Freddie
03-02-2013, 08:50 PM
I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!
You bring up an important point, which most like to ignore, but one does end up in these situations and if you're not prepared for this - and all you get, is shot down.
So.. how does one prepare for this.. You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.
You'll know when you have your man when his a/c starts wobbling or he runs away for 'advantage' ;)
Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level, and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.
Mind you, the P-39 generally is very tough opposition for a 109G-6 in game. I tend to engage them only from an advantageous position, and then on my terms. Which usually involves high altitude spiral climbs. If I don't have the advantage, I'll come back with the advantage and if that's not possible, I just disengage. At sea level, it is possible to outrun all but the Q-10, so in case of emergency, I just dive for the deck and keep running.
K_Freddie
03-02-2013, 09:30 PM
Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level,
That is true, but it's not the end..
and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.
As soon as you engage a slow, low turner.. you expose yourself as well.
My usual tactic is to ground hug, circling around a DF going on above.
If there is low level escape attempt (they do come down.. always).. I'm there shooting it up or shooting up the 'trailers' after a friendly. If I'm spotted and attacked, there is usually a friendly after my attacker. If it's 1-vs-1.. I'm practised in this type of flying - if my opponent is not.. they're dead meat.. or it's up to who has the best imagination.
If the DF above goes 'bottoms up'.. I warp factor outa there.. to low to be seen.
:)
MaxGunz
03-05-2013, 11:00 AM
You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.
So how hard can you turn at or very near stall speed?
Or is this advice you give to make your potential targets easy?
Bearcat
03-07-2013, 03:44 AM
Slowing down: 1st to say is don't waste your speed. Best way to slow down is to rise up!
If you are attacking at greater speed than your target but not hugely greater then use yoyo and barrel to stay behind and take occasional sniping shots.
You will fly a longer path, your speed will not take you out in front if you do this properly and yes it takes practice. Best way is to set up a mission with just you and 1 friendly plane flying waypoints around the map at less than high speed. You don't have to shoot, just practice yoyo's and wide spirals behind your leader. Do not try to stay on his tail.
in practice you take the sniping shots as much to force the target to turn -hard- as to hit him. When he does, rise and follow from above (rising slows you down, rise to your better turning speed) then when he straightens out to regain speed you drop to snipe and go back to yoyos as necessary.
When the target slows enough he will not be able to turn well without losing alt. When he runs out of alt to lose, he will turn like a sick cow and be very easy to shoot.
During all this you have the higher speed and retain the ability to rise above. Don't blow it in hard turning, that is what you want him to do.
That is the energy fighter's game. The slower plane may try the angles fight where your main game is to sucker the energy fighter into hard turns to lose his speed advantage. If his plane is poor turning -relative to yours at lower speed- then when he slows down you have a chance to get him.
I would rather have a speed advantage than flat turn advantage especially on a server with multiple enemies.
When you fly, are you keeping The Ball near or at center? If not, you can get more speed by doing that.
IRL you would feel when it's out (a pull to one side like when turning a car) which no sim gives. So you have to develop the habit of ruddering about enough but you can with flying practice. and spot checks on that black ball in the curved track for feedback on when you have it right. It has a minor to major effect on your speed and acceleration.
Another speed-factor is your elevator trim. Trimmed nose high, you will never get your full speed and your acceleration will suck. Trim changes with speed and power settings as it does IRL. When you want speed it's better to be trimmed a tiny bit nose down and have to pull back a teensy bit that to be trimmed nose up and have to push. But coming into tight turns you want just the opposite since you will slow down while turning and -need- more and more nose up trim!
And last for now is how hard you hold your stick (with appropriate low-humor jokes) and -not- resting the weight of your arm on the stick. In practice flight you don't need to shoot, what I was taught is to hold the stick with just 2 fingers and thumb to force myself to be a light touch on the controls. Not resting arm weight on the stick is a ***VERY*** hard habit to break. When I get it right, I maneuver much better! When I tire out and rest my hand on the stick I fly more sluggish, ham-handed.
I can't emphasize how important practicing just flying and perfecting your BCM's and ACM's and control habits is. Once you know your maneuvers well and have your habits tuned you will do better and find setting up tactics far easier.
If you could conquer this game in a month, that's all it would be worth and there wouldn't much community around it.
BTW, there are scenarios when it's stacked against you. For Russians it's worst in 41-42 and for Germans it's 44-45. If it's not the planes or lack of firepower (Early-war Russians, play as Germans first time through!) that gets you, it will be numbers. If you didn't have these, you would miss a major aspect of the historic war feeling of being the underdog.
If it gets you down then go practice flying and work on your speed and those maneuvers that failed you. Conquering maneuvers and your own habits isn't as satisfying as shooting a plane down but flying better has it's own rewards that will continue to pay past the next 100 shoot-downs.
This is so true and while it is a well known concept.. the practice takes practice. I have begun to fly around with no target.. just trying to practice keeping my speed up and using the vertical to slow down and keeping that ball as centered as possible throughout the process. It is not as simple as it sounds.
MaxGunz
03-07-2013, 09:32 AM
It is not as simple as it sounds.
No it ain't Mr. Bearcat. Notta-tall.
There's too much to learn just flying maneuvers with full attention to throw in SA, tactics and pressure and expect to learn anything like as fast or well. Maneuver flying has got to be second nature just to free up mental capacity for SA and tactics at the same time. I can tell ya I'm no longer up to the full task but I'm still beyond the mudhens.
If you can get practice time online with a better flier, go for it. Many times I have been through sessions where another player would say "can you do this?" and in finally doing that I learned something. Or just play follow the leader, or try, and learn from that.
I set the view to cover the instruments and a little over the dash when practice-flying. I need to see The Ball the most as I got no feel in the sim and have to build up a set of cues to keep the rudder anywhere near right and that is *hard* without spending time now and again watching and confirming what looks and feels right even when not watching the ball. Driving without keeping one eye on the speedometer is simple by compare.
And that's where the Mustang shines in IL-2, at least with the ones than have the mini-ball in the base of the gunsight. I count that to be a major advantage and LOL! it's -historic- to have that there.
What isn't historic is sitting in a stationary chair not feeling the sideways tug of slip or G's or speed and vibration. All those disconnects and only one plane type in IL-2 lets you see that important cue while zoomed to shoot.
I posted this before when Oleg was around the forums: we need a slip gauge in the speedbar. Just a dot on a line would do, but we need that to replace the sideways-tug feeling that real pilots get. Everyone could run that and the playing field would be more level. I wonder if that's on any list DT has?
Well, devicelink is more open now too.
Bolelas
03-07-2013, 05:48 PM
I posted this before when Oleg was around the forums: we need a slip gauge in the speedbar. Just a dot on a line would do, but we need that to replace the sideways-tug feeling that real pilots get. Everyone could run that and the playing field would be more level. I wonder if that's on any list DT has?
+1
Never tought of that, and it is a great idea! Lets ask TD if they can do that on a future patch.
K_Freddie
03-14-2013, 09:22 PM
BC.. I know you adore the P51. Hop along to the DCS channel (http://forums.eagle.ru/?langid=1)... you'll never look back. ;)
DCS is now the same story that IL2 was in 2001, but it looks like DCS will have more longevity, and will be the death knell of IL2 and CLOD (dead anyway).
;)
K_Freddie
03-14-2013, 10:23 PM
In addition to tactics, I like the slow speed model of DCS.. it so much more difficult to control, which makes it even better :cool:
Pursuivant
03-17-2013, 04:44 AM
I posted this before when Oleg was around the forums: we need a slip gauge in the speedbar. Just a dot on a line would do, but we need that to replace the sideways-tug feeling that real pilots get.
Some sort of g-meter" and accelerometer," too. The first would tell you approximately how many g's you're pulling before you start to gray or red-out due to GLOC. The second would simulate the feeling of being pushed back in your seat as you accelerate, being pushed forwards as you decelerate or "hanging in space" as the plane "drops out from under you" in a stall (or as you start to "fall out of the airplane" when flying inverted).
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