Quickest/best way to get some more Japanese strike aircraft into the game

[IceFire]

I do a lot of online scenarios so a variety of flyable aircraft is pretty essential anytime you sit down and want to do something. I've been venturing a lot away from the standard fare of Stukas, Ju88s and IL-2s. We've had some great additions to the line up over the year and the IL-4 is a ton of fun.

In the next patch we're getting a couple of types that will really help with the Japanese aircraft situation. B5N is a huge gap that will be filled and the Ki-45 is a potent fighter-bomber.

We have a fair number of fighters already although there are some gaps which make some online scenarios difficult but I think the bigger gaps are in the strike and bomber aircraft. I'm just wondering what people think would be the best and easiest way to get more flyable types that would be useful in some way?

I keep coming back to the D3A2. I'm not sure how different the cockpit/gunner station would be versus the D3A1 that we have but it has a more powerful engine, higher top speed, and use frontline use across three years of war.

I also think about bombers. We have no Japanese Army bombers so a Ki-67 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Ki-67) might do... but it might be easier to get a later model G4M in the game? We have a early model which is great but in online scenarios we're using that from everything to do in 1942 through to 1945. The Ki-21 "Sally" was a major type as was the Ki-48 "Lily".

Thoughts?

[wheelsup_cavu]

Yes to all??, or doesn't that help much. :mrgreen:

Seriously though you have some solid choices and all of them would make great additions to the sim for the Pacific theatre operations. Of them all I like the Sally the most though.


Wheels

[IceFire]

The Sally would be useful for sure. Maybe a late model Betty. Very heavy defensive armament on the last versions. I'm just not sure if the interior would be largely the same or so different that it might as well be a new airplane?

[Nil]

I agree with you Icefire;
Our game needs late bombers
Here you can see differences between D3a1 and D3a2 Japanese bombers "val"
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5548/valah9.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/valah9.jpg/)

[gaunt1]

+1 for D3A2. It was much more common than the A1, over 1000 was built.

I'd suggest the Yokusuka D4Y, both with the Atsuta and MK8 Kinsei engines. Not as famous as the D3, but was an excellent dive bomber.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/watermark.php?file=19983&size=1

[ElAurens]

Need more Army planes.

[Pursuivant]

The D3A2 would probably be the easiest, but it would still need some 3D work on the engine plus the bomb crutch and animations for it.

A G4M2 could possibly be converted from the Baka-carrying version of the G4M2e we've got currently, but it would need modifications to just about every crew station.

The G4M3 would require different side and rear gunner stations.

There are some modded versions of Japanese aircraft that look pretty good, but I have no idea if they're up to TD's standards.

[IceFire]

I agree with you Icefire;
Our game needs late bombers
Here you can see differences between D3a1 and D3a2 Japanese bombers "val"
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5548/valah9.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/valah9.jpg/)

Never see the differences so well illustrated. Thanks for sharing! So a few differences... new nose (I knew that), revised wing with folding section, new glass section at the back for the gunner.

It's interesting when they were working on Pacific Fighters they gave us the early Val but it really only saw use in the opening stages of the war. The D3A2 was used frontline into 1944 if I remember right. Then the D4Y became the predominant dive bomber for the Japanese navy.

[IceFire]

Need more Army planes.

Indeed! A Ki-67 or Ki-48 would be helpful potentially... not a bomber but the most produced Ki-61 variant was the Ki-61 Tei which was missing from Pacific Fighters (another odd and glaring omission).

[HarryKlein]

You could also add to the list the Ki 30, Ki 51, G3M, P1Y (or the Helldiver for the USN ) but none of them are easy additions.

By trying to cover the whole war, PF was simply too ambitious from the start.
The question is IMHO : what can DT do with their limited means ? (supposing they want to )

Knowing that no matter how, gaps are inevitable.
Should they keep trying to cover the whole war,
or should they focus on a limited periods in order to get at least something complete for all sides ie : pre, early, mid or late war ?

[Macwan]

IMHO the Nell, Lily and Helen are the most needed attack bombers by Japanese side. It's a lot of stuff to do for release as they're all twin engines planes, by the way. :confused: :-?
Sub-variants of the Val and Betty could be a plus, sure. :)

[Pershing]

Quickest/best way is a mass donation to make all essential models for money.
Quickest/best way = to pay for it)
Sorry for me English

[shelby]

not a bomber but the most produced Ki-61 variant was the Ki-61 Tei which was missing from Pacific Fighters (another odd and glaring omission).Also Ki-43iii and Ki-44

[1984]

oh, these ki-44, i'm only recently understood about this very interesting plane (not bad performance if this (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Tojo-155A.pdf) true, especially, for serial production)... for a start, sensibly be version Ki-44-IIb, right? new p-40 + mustangs with allison + ki-44 + any chinese map etc...:) and ki-67, ki-43 and other planes, all japanese weapon, etc, how much need do in this game (good what sometimes it's easy)...

[IceFire]

You could also add to the list the Ki 30, Ki 51, G3M, P1Y (or the Helldiver for the USN ) but none of them are easy additions.

By trying to cover the whole war, PF was simply too ambitious from the start.
The question is IMHO : what can DT do with their limited means ? (supposing they want to )

Knowing that no matter how, gaps are inevitable.
Should they keep trying to cover the whole war,
or should they focus on a limited periods in order to get at least something complete for all sides ie : pre, early, mid or late war ?

You're right that some specialization might be a good idea. I think, if some sort of Pacific specialization were to occur that they should focus on China/Burma/India and focus on one or two major battles where lots of air power was used and fill in the maps and aircraft types that are missing. It's not actually a lot ... most of the work has been done already but it might fit the more tactical nature of the IL-2 engine better than large island hopping campaigns... although with the Solomons and N-G maps we should have the majority of that covered.

[IceFire]

IMHO the Nell, Lily and Helen are the most needed attack bombers by Japanese side. It's a lot of stuff to do for release as they're all twin engines planes, by the way. :confused: :-?
Sub-variants of the Val and Betty could be a plus, sure. :)

Those would obviously entail more work for sure...

In the short term the D3A2 might be a good quick addition. It doesn't look like the cockpit is any different than the A1 and the gunner station would be the same too from the looks of it except for the canopy glass which would need a remodel.

In terms of use the D3A1 is very slow but the A2 gives it some speed and climbing power. Unfortunately no further armament options.

[HarryKlein]

should focus on China/Burma/India and focus on one or two major battles where lots of air power was used .

This would make an excellent choice.


In terms of use the D3A1 is very slow but the A2 gives it some speed and climbing power. Unfortunately no further armament options.

While waiting for a possible D3A2, you can use the A6M2 as an alternative in your missions,
although this solution lacks of variety.
Around february 44 a unit of A6M2 was embarked on the Ryuho. The aircrafts fitted with 250kg bombs were used as shallow dive bombers.

[Pursuivant]

IMHO the Nell, Lily and Helen are the most needed attack bombers by Japanese side.

I haven't seen good 3-view drawings or interior photographs for the Nell and no planes of the type exist.

There are decent 3-view drawings for the Lily and Helen, and replicas or wrecks which could be used to get interior views, but I haven't seen good pictures of the interiors.

So, these planes could possibly be modeled as AI planes, but it would be very hard to make them flyable - at least to TD standards rather than as mods.

[gaunt1]

Then it looks like there arent many choices for making flyable japanese bombers.
It seems the only planes we can have with cockpits:
- Aichi D3A2
- Mitsubishi G4M2 (with modified G4M1 cockpit)
- Nakajima B6N
- Yokosuka D4Y

There are very few pictures about the latter two, but I think it is still possible to model the pit, based on scale models. 1/48 is detailed enough for that.

Examples:

B6N:

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=55842

D4Y:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/143151.aspx?sort=ASC&pi240=1

EDIT: + maybe the Aichi B7A, and the Nakajima C6N, although the Saiun was a recon aircraft.

[Buren]

Don't forget that there are few very detailed japanese monograph series (e.g: Maru Mechanic, Famous Aircraft of the World etc.).

Most Maru Mechanic issues have detailed drawings and/or paintings of cockpits not found on google image search for example.

Just need to get hold on the issues...

[gaunt1]

Well, I know how to get some of those books, but I think there would be dire consequences if I would post it here. But anyway, I think everyone knows what Im talking about.

Books I found from Maru Mechanic series:

Ki-67 Hiryu, D3A, D4Y Suisei, P1Y & G4M, J2M Raiden & N1K Shiden, Ki-21, C47 (L2D), and B6N.

[Pursuivant]

Don't forget that there are few very detailed japanese monograph series (e.g: Maru Mechanic, Famous Aircraft of the World etc.).

True. There's a lot of stuff that non-Japanese speakers miss. I'm also sure that there are technical reports on captured planes and possibly even original manuals which aren't available online.

The U.S. Air Force and the Japanese conspired destroy a lot of factory documents and original records, but at least some stuff must survive.

Japanese modders like Western and JapanCat probably have much better access to this information. After all, if plastic model manufacturers can create cockpits and interiors for these planes there must be some information available.

[Pursuivant]

- Mitsubishi G4M2 (with modified G4M1 cockpit)
- Nakajima B6N
- Yokosuka D4Y

These planes exist as mods, as do a few other Japanese planes.

My choices for Japanese multi-engined types would be the G3M Nell, the H6K Mavis and Ki-67 Hiryu/Peggy.

[IceFire]

Ki-67 would definitely be useful to balance things out a bit and give the Japanese are more late war type bomber to use with the added speed, power and protection that it had. But it would be a whole new project although it sounds like almost anything would be a new project.

[Igo kyu]

According to Wikipedia it was Nells and Bettys that sank force Z

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

I think Nells should be prioritiesd, as we have Bettys.

[IceFire]

According to Wikipedia it was Nells and Bettys that sank force Z

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

I think Nells should be prioritiesd, as we have Bettys.

I just feel that the Nell is not that useful when we put it in context of the entire war. It was successful early on but was otherwise overshadowed by the Betty. As it stands we have one fairly early model Betty with the modified tail stinger but right now it's being used in scenarios that span the entire war. Dropping in a Nell leaves us in the same position.

No doubt... a very interesting plane but of limited usefulness across the range of dates and scenarios.

[ElAurens]

We really need an ARMY attack aircraft.

[IceFire]

We really need an ARMY attack aircraft.

Thank goodness we're getting the Ki-45. That will fill the role nicely with 2x250kg bomb carrying and a 37mm artillery cannon in the one model that works well as an anti-tank aircraft (probably better than it's role as a bomber interceptor).

But a level bomber of some kind would be useful for the Army too. Agreed.

[ElAurens]

I'm thinking about an Ann or Sonya. Actually the Sonya (KI 51) would be the better choice as it was manufactured to the end of the war.

If we were to get an early Phillippines, China, or Indo China map, then the Ann (KI 30) would be appropriate.

[Juri_JS]

Someone from the Russian community was working on a Ki-51, but I am not sure if work on the project continues.
http://forum.aviaskins.com/showthread.php?t=2256

[Pershing]

Someone from the Russian community was working on a Ki-51, but I am not sure if work on the project continues.
http://forum.aviaskins.com/showthread.php?t=2256

It does, as I can see..

[ElAurens]

I hope he models the wheel spats.

:cool:

[wheelsup_cavu]

+1 for D3A2. It was much more common than the A1, over 1000 was built.

I'd suggest the Yokusuka D4Y, both with the Atsuta and MK8 Kinsei engines. Not as famous as the D3, but was an excellent dive bomber.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/watermark.php?file=19983&size=1

Would love to see it modeled officially. I volunteer at Planes of Fame and they just finished restoring the D4Y of theirs. Unfortunately since there were no plans available they had to use their best guess when it came to fixing/making several things. The plane will be taxiable but it was not restored to flying status due to the limitations from not having any plans and the severity of some of the intergranular corrosion of the longerons.

Here are some build photos on the PoF Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150292328988790.343061.23688958789&type=3


Wheels

[IceFire]

Would love to see it modeled officially. I volunteer at Planes of Fame and they just finished restoring the D4Y of theirs. Unfortunately since there were no plans available they had to use their best guess when it came to fixing/making several things. The plane will be taxiable but it was not restored to flying status due to the limitations from not having any plans and the severity of some of the intergranular corrosion of the longerons.

Here are some build photos on the PoF Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150292328988790.343061.23688958789&type=3


Wheels
That's incredible stuff! Thanks for sharing!

[IceFire]

I'm thinking about an Ann or Sonya. Actually the Sonya (KI 51) would be the better choice as it was manufactured to the end of the war.

If we were to get an early Phillippines, China, or Indo China map, then the Ann (KI 30) would be appropriate.

Not a bad idea as well. Would be interesting for a scenario in there somewhere definitely.

I've often mused about what it would take to build a map for IL-2. A China map would be great to have. Something totally different than the usual.

[ElAurens]

All it would take is one or two people with the knowledge to help.

There is someone at DT that needs the help to do it.

[Pursuivant]

My choices for Japanese multi-engined types would be the G3M Nell, the H6K Mavis and Ki-67 Hiryu/Peggy.

The Ki-67 Hiryu/Peggy was recently released as a mod. The exterior looks good, but I haven't had a chance to fly it.

[bf-110]

I would like a lot to see more japanese planes.IMO,they are the least know planes of WWII,even polish planes projects are better understood.

The D4Y looks really beautiful,and I suppose the G3M would be very important for early pacific war.The P1Y is another plane I try to understand it's purpose.Was it a common bomber,like the G4M?

Oh,and I guess the easiest plane to make is this one:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/kyushu-q1w-tokai_2.jpg
The Q1W

[ElAurens]

The Q1W was a submarine hunter.

It has no real purpose for the way our sim works, though I admit it is an interesting aircraft.

[IceFire]

I would like a lot to see more japanese planes.IMO,they are the least know planes of WWII,even polish planes projects are better understood.

The D4Y looks really beautiful,and I suppose the G3M would be very important for early pacific war.The P1Y is another plane I try to understand it's purpose.Was it a common bomber,like the G4M?

The G3M was important to a couple of battles very early on but in terms of content that we have right now.. only the Singapore map would be a place where it could be used historically (to the best of my knowledge). If we had China and some of the early fighting there then... yeah it would be more critical. The G4M was pretty ubiquitous with over 2000 constructed and several major versions as the war went on.

The P1Y is interesting indeed. It strikes me as something akin to the Mosquito or the Pe-2. Maybe more Pe-2 than Mosquito but nonetheless it's along those lines. Interesting aircraft. Useful for 1944-45 by my quick Wikipedia read and with 1000 built it's not an insignificant number. Bomber, torpedo bomber and heavy/night fighter. Versatile. Perhaps someone will have a look.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/IJN_P1Y1_Ginga_Prototype-3_Tsu-11_testbed.jpg

[Asheshouse]

Also used in China including Khalkhin Gol battles

-- and continued to be used in secondary roles in most WWII theatres including New Guinea and Solomons.

[IceFire]

Also used in China including Khalkhin Gol battles

-- and continued to be used in secondary roles in most WWII theatres including New Guinea and Solomons.

I've been doing a lot of reading about the New Guinea and Solomons battles and the G3M hasn't come up. Remember where they may have been based?

[Asheshouse]

This one definitely served in New Guinea - and never left.

http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00736005&size=medium

I'm not sure that any squadron sized units were present after 1942 but the aircraft continued in common use for transport and secondary duties in most areas.

I do have a reference for a number of units being based at Rabaul in late 1942 equipped with the G3M3 type. Ref Aircam Aviation No 35. Prior to October the G3M2 type was based at Rabaul.

G3M2 type were used in the Battle of Coral Sea.
The same G3M2 type were used in the attacks on Force Z off Singapore.
http://www.myaviation.net/search/display_photo.file?filename=5/0/0/00736005.jpg&ZyXtCe=MTIzMTM3&id=00736005&ViD=middle

[IceFire]

Interesting info! I didn't know anything about that.

[Pursuivant]

Man! I wish there were good interior shots of that wreck. Even after 60 years on a tropical airfield, the pictures would probably be a heck of a lot better than the few black and white interior shots we've got of the Nell.

That is, unless there are actually blueprints, pilots/maintenance manuals or other technical documents which aren't available on the web.

[Asheshouse]

Not much of the cockpit left unfortunately

http://en.tracesofwar.com/upload/1814110318125743.jpg

More pics here http://nl.tracesofwar.com/artikel/19258/Wrak-Mitsubishi-G3M2-Bommenwerper-Gasmata.htm

A quick google search for "Gasmata g3m" will find more pics

The G3M2 type were involved in attacks against Guadalcanal, flying from Rabaul I guess, in autumn 42.

[Pursuivant]

Not much of the cockpit left unfortunately

There are decent period pictures of the control panel and enough pictures of the pilots' and navigator's positions that it's possible to make some educated guesses. The picture you linked to gives a decent inside view of the frame around the cockpit.

Pictures I haven't seen are the interior of the gunners' and bombardier's stations.

[gaunt1]

G3m

[Pursuivant]

Thanks for the graphics from FAOW.

Another good source of images for the Nell is here:

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2012/01/mitsubishi-g3m-nell_20.html

There are some very nice pictures from a WW2 era Japanese magazine (Asahi Graph) which show unusual interior details.

Still not enough to really model the interior of the plane, but pretty close.

What's lacking are details of the ventral turret (or the "dustbin" turret in the early marks of the G3M1) and more detailed views of the interior of the various crew positions (notably the bombardier's station). Details of the wheel wells and the shackles for bombs and torpedoes would also be helpful.

[gaunt1]

Sorry for necroing this thread, but I found something that may be useful.

D3A2 (note that it is almost the same as D3A1, maybe not so hard to do the A2 variant?)
http://gunsight.jp/c/image2/type99cb-02s.jpg
B6N
http://gunsight.jp/c/image3/tenzan.jpg
D4Y
http://gunsight.jp/c/image3/suisei-12s.jpg

And many more cockpit drawings...
http://gunsight.jp/c/english/cockpit-e-3D.htm