So, about that little red light...

[Flyby]

High over southern England, in the area of the London docks, you lead a flight of Emils, and see a climbing flight of Huricanes. Just as you're about to signal your flight to attack, suddenly a little red light comes on in your cockpit...
Sorry guys. Just want to know how much fuel the Emil has left when that little read light comes on. Perhaps more to the point, how many more minutes can the Emil stay in the air? I'm sure this question has been answered before, somewhere. But is it accurately modeled in SoW?
thanks,
Flyby out

[Skoshi Tiger]

High over southern England, in the area of the London docks, you lead a flight of Emils, and see a climbing flight of Huricanes. Just as you're about to signal your flight to attack, suddenly a little red light comes on in your cockpit...
Sorry guys. Just want to know how much fuel the Emil has left when that little read light comes on. Perhaps more to the point, how many more minutes can the Emil stay in the air? I'm sure this question has been answered before, somewhere. But is it accurately modeled in SoW?
thanks,
Flyby out

I'm sure the fuel load and consumption will be accurately modelled in BoB. But how many LW pilots are going to fly all the way from France, weaving above their bombers so that they have only fuel for 10 minutes above London? Not many is my guess (probably the name number of RAF pilots that will want to spend the first 10 minutes of every mission trying to get up to the height of the bombers). And about just as many will head on back once they reach bingo fuel! (Hopefully, the German sea rescue will be modelled or the LW pilots are good swimmers!)

Also in quick missions and Dogfight servers it’s all very academic anyway as the service conditions aren't reproduced.

[Flyby]

Maybe so, but I thought I'd read that London was within the extreme range of the Emil. I'll check and get back at this.
Flyby out

[repent]

But how many LW pilots are going to fly all the way from France, weaving above their bombers so that they have only fuel for 10 minutes above London? Not many is my guess (probably the name number of RAF pilots that will want to spend the first 10 minutes of every mission trying to get up to the height of the bombers).

.


well i for one will be doing this, its all part of a realistic sim, if you dont do this then your missing the whole point of the game, hastily scrambled spits and hurricanes being dived upon by 109's is what happened and what will happen for the 109's to gain any sort of victory.

[Chivas]

There will undoubtably be options to suit most everyones sense of gameplay. So set the option that turns your crank and have fun.

[Flyby]

Well guys,
I must admit that one good COOP in the Emil where I take off, fly to England, then try to get back home has it's appeal. I agree with repent that it's the whole point of the game. Why talk about unprotected sex if you're just going to whack off in the first place? :D
Flyby out

[JG52Uther]

well i for one will be doing this, its all part of a realistic sim, if you dont do this then your missing the whole point of the game, hastily scrambled spits and hurricanes being dived upon by 109's is what happened and what will happen for the 109's to gain any sort of victory.

+1 Thats what it is all about isn't it? Why ask for as realistic a sim as you can get,then play it like an arcade game.

[SlipBall]

It shall be as it once was, little doubt:-P

[Skoshi Tiger]

Hope you guys are right.

I will be using my usual historical tactic of running away at the first sign of trouble and being creative with my claims! <bg>

[Thunderbolt56]

Hope you guys are right.

I will be using my usual historical tactic of running away at the first sign of trouble and being creative with my claims! <bg>


LMAO...I'll just fly a hurri.

[BadAim]

All LW flyers must get a French girlfriend whose daddy has a fishing boat and can meet them halfway accross the channel. This will allow for more time to fight over England. Herman however might not like the Idea so much. (or the girlfriends daddy)

[Snuff_Pidgeon]

Nice thought, Bad Aim!

[Kurfürst]

Sorry guys. Just want to know how much fuel the Emil has left when that little read light comes on.

Flyby out

The red warning light would light up when you have apprx. 20 minutes to go.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

[QUOTE=Skoshi Tiger;45070](Hopefully, the German sea rescue will be modelled or the LW pilots are good swimmers!)QUOTE]


A briliant point that needs Oleg's attention!


The reason is the ON-line international competitions that would start as soon as
SOW comes out along with its Campaign generator or what have you .....

All the best.

[Viking]

The red warning light would light up when you have apprx. 20 minutes to go.


A quick look at the facts books I have;

With 400 litres tank and minimum 260 lit/ hour, say 300, makes 100 lit left to go. Is that correct? Just how was this red light triggered? Floating switch or..?

At approx 400 km / hour its 130 km to go and from London to France is just a little bit less, that will give you one go at landing, exciting!

Viking

[GADGET]

Red light is 10 minutes of flight in real Bf.109s, as I have been told by Lwf. pilots.

I remember an old pilot friend of ours reporting the red light to ground control, when he was a young Ltnt.. The answer was: "Leutenient, you put your finger over the light and keep flying against those B-17s"

[Viking]

I can accept that as it was over Germany, B-17: s and all you had to do was to glide down to the nearest airfield or meadow. Over England: different story.

Viking

[JG52Uther]

A lot of 109 pilots ended up in the channel. When SoW comes out,if you fly on the full size map there will be none of this '110%' flying all the time,not if you want to get back to France.

[Skoshi Tiger]

A lot of 109 pilots ended up in the channel. When SoW comes out,if you fly on the full size map there will be none of this '110%' flying all the time,not if you want to get back to France.

And using prop pitch and mixture controls for economy!

I hope we have a printed pilots manual with proformance charts!

[robtek]

I also hope that the damage model includes that the engine gets worse if you use 110% for more than 5 min.

[GF_Mastiff]

I also hope that the damage model includes that the engine gets worse if you use 110% for more than 5 min.

I just hope to see, at the very least, Beta testing by this winter!

[robtek]

tell me who doesn´t!!!

[Flyby]

good discussion so far. well, maybe not so reat for the collaborating french girls! :D

[zapatista]

High over southern England, in the area of the London docks, you lead a flight of Emils, and see a climbing flight of Huricanes. Just as you're about to signal your flight to attack, suddenly a little red light comes on in your cockpit...

i'd be more worried about Oleg getting the visibility for distant aircraft right, rather then the fuel gauge warning light.

right now in il2 it is impossible to see that "climbing flight of Huricanes" below you unless you stick a telescope with tunnel vision out of your cockpit and slowly scan every yard of space below you.

[Flyby]

good point, Zap. I'm guilty of being optimistic, if I may say so. ;)
Flyby out

[Skoshi Tiger]

i'd be more worried about Oleg getting the visibility for distant aircraft right, rather then the fuel gauge warning light.

right now in il2 it is impossible to see that "climbing flight of Huricanes" below you unless you stick a telescope with tunnel vision out of your cockpit and slowly scan every yard of space below you.

Considering that 'most' pilots that were shot down never saw their attacker, I think that that would be a fairly accurate representation. All credit to Oleg!

Its been a few years since I got behind the controlls of a cessna, but airplanes are hard to spot. Even when they're painted white and your both within a circuit at the same altitude, and the controller has told you where the other plane is!

"Wiskey India Foxtrot, Join down wind, follow the Piper Mid-Downwind!" "AaaH, Wiskey India Foxtrot"

[WTE_Galway]

Considering that 'most' pilots that were shot down never saw their attacker, I think that that would be a fairly accurate representation. All credit to Oleg!

Its been a few years since I got behind the controlls of a cessna, but airplanes are hard to spot. Even when they're painted white and your both within a circuit at the same altitude, and the controller has told you where the other plane is!

"Wiskey India Foxtrot, Join down wind, follow the Piper Mid-Downwind!" "AaaH, Wiskey India Foxtrot"

Back before I was grounded by diabetes, I vividly recall being in the landing circuit ever a small uncontrolled Australian regional airport at 1000' talking to a Dash 8 (50 seat twin turbo prop commercial flight) coming in on a straight in approach from 20 km out.

My passenger and I kept our eyes peeled for this aircraft whilst continuing our circuit and could not spot it. Eventually after 5 minutes had past we contacted the Dash 8 to confirm its position only to be advised by the pilot in control it was already on the ground and had cleared the runway (something he should have announced on the radio out of politeness if nothing else but regional commercial pilots can be a law unto themselves).

Sure enough on scanning the apron outside the main terminal, there was a very large shiny White and Red Dash 8. My passenger was an experienced pilot with several 1000 hours up yet soemhow this large brightly painted aircraft managed to land and taxi off the runway we were circling at 1000' and we missed it.

[DKoor]

All LW flyers must get a French girlfriend whose daddy has a fishing boat and can meet them halfway accross the channel. This will allow for more time to fight over England. Herman however might not like the Idea so much. (or the girlfriends daddy)Better for them is to fly then to mess with his daughter (from Dad's point of view).

[Skoshi Tiger]

I think most of the french fishing boat captin's would have had a boat hook for the express purpose of pushing the German pilot under water.

(substitute french accent) "It was all very tragic, I tried to save him for a bout 45 minutes, but he kept fighting me off! Don't worry my daughter we will find a nice french lad for you!"

[Sturm_Williger]

i'd be more worried about Oleg getting the visibility for distant aircraft right, rather then the fuel gauge warning light.

right now in il2 it is impossible to see that "climbing flight of Huricanes" below you unless you stick a telescope with tunnel vision out of your cockpit and slowly scan every yard of space below you.

I'm not so worried about the "climbing flight of Hurricanes" being invisible so much as I worry about the Hurricane/Spitfire I'm 250m behind just plain vanishing against the ground.

If Oleg can fix that, I'll be a happy camper.

[zapatista]

Considering that 'most' pilots that were shot down never saw their attacker, I think that that would be a fairly accurate representation. All credit to Oleg!

that is not a rational comparison, you'r then basically saying that because there are many car accidents on the roads, we might as well let everybody drive blindfolded !

yes many pilots in ww2 got jumped by the enemy and never saw the attacker, and yes some aircraft are difficult to spot under certain weather/light circumstances even if you know their approximate position, but in il2 it is totally unrealistic how aircraft between 300 and 1500 meters can be nearly impossible to spot or track in a dogfight.

viewing aircraft against a terrain background is the problem, because the 2D level of detail model for medium and far distances might look pretty in a grafix editor program but they blend in to much with the 2D terrain background textures (viewing them against open sky is not a problem). in real life when tracking a 3 dimensional object that is seen moving against a stationary background, it is much easier at those distances.

btw, this is a problem in il2 when using the normal and correct FoV setting for your monitor size, dont compare it with what you see on a zoomed view setting which artificially magnifies what you see.

you have the exact same problem in il2 when trying to spot tanks/trucks on a road or in a field, in real life you can still see them from 1500 meters, and in il2 you need to be at 300 or 400 meters. if you ever fly VFR in real aircraft just look at the scenery below you and compare at what altitudes you can still spot individual cars/trucks etc.. then compare it again to what you can see in il2. in il2 there is a MAJOR problem with object visibility, its down to about 30% to what it should be.

[Rama]

Old debate comming up again...

btw, this is a problem in il2 when using the normal and correct FoV setting for your monitor size, dont compare it with what you see on a zoomed view setting which artificially magnifies what you see.

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it.
The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).

BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you have the exact same problem in il2 when trying to spot tanks/trucks on a road or in a field, in real life you can still see them from 1500 meters, and in il2 you need to be at 300 or 400 meters. if you ever fly VFR in real aircraft just look at the scenery below you and compare at what altitudes you can still spot individual cars/trucks etc.. then compare it again to what you can see in il2. in il2 there is a MAJOR problem with object visibility, its down to about 30% to what it should be.

I do often fly VFR between 500ft AGL and 3000ft AGL and find that IL2 does quite a good job for ground object spotting at these altitudes (again with the 30° FOV).... In real when the landscape is highly contrasted, it's even more difficult to spot such objets sometimes.
At 4500 ft AGL in real (corresponding to your 1500m), It isn't hard to spot a truck or even a car on a black asphalted road.... it is much harder (and some times impossible) to spot the same vehicles (or an agriculture engine for exemple) in the middle of a standard agriculture landscape (at least where I fly, with lanscape of small rolling hills, with a mosaic of small culture fields and woods/hedges, etc...)

Seems we don't have the same IRL experience.
I see that in this tread, others have the same IRL experience as I have.

[Flyby]

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes! :D
Flyby out

[ALien_12]

If i have to get decission, i attacking Hurris in 1 fly-by and then escape ;)

[Flyby]

perhaps if you have the height advantage in the Emil you might be able to B&Z them. Just don't turn with them. Might be easy pickins.

[zapatista]

Old debate comming up again...

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it........
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).....

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works, or how to use it correctly according to the manufacturers specifications (and complying to health and safety regulations to protect your eye sight).

to keep things simple for now, lets presume we are all using lcd pc monitors on our computer desks, since that is now the case for most gamers in developed countries. (projector displays, large plasma tv's, and CRT monitors have somewhat different characteristics and different rules apply, hence they are best viewed from different distances)

for modern pc lcd monitors, there is basically only one "correct viewing distance" ! that distance is determined by the font size of the OS/software, the size of the pixels the display uses, and the display resolution.

for reading text default font sizes are similar across OS's and are roughly 30% larger then what you see in print (for normal printed text in books and literature). because the monitor is further from your eyes, to your brain the viewing size of the text fonts remains similar. there can also be a slight difference in pixel sizes for different monitor which can slightly change this for normal desktop use, but at 0.05 mm difference per pixel for simplicity sake we'll skip that part for now to (roughly varying btw 0.25 and 0.30 mm).

for viewing video or grafix the best viewing distance is roughly similar to that, because if you sit to close the image pixilates and becomes blocky ( you can see the individual pixel blocks and the lines between them), and if you sit to far away you loose the detail of the image . the ball park correct viewing distance for lcd pc monitors is roughly 60 cm, with about a 10 cm variation depending on personal preference or accuracy of vision. the resolution the display is set to also matters, with high definition video using smaller pixel blocks so you can sit a little closer, and for lower resolution video users having to sit a little further away (so the displayed video "block" blend in together more). but for now we'll presume the lcd pc monitors we are using are set at their native resolution, and since pixel sizes in those lcd monitors are fairly constant, those with higher resolution monitors basically have larger monitors with more pixels on the larger display surface, but sit at similar distances.

so to keep a long story short, lcd pc monitors DO have a "correct viewing distance", and a small monitor will give you a smaller field of view in il2, and a larger (wider) monitor will give you a wider Field of View. therefore whatever lcd monitor size you have on your desk, there will only be ONE correct FoV setting in il2 that will show you in game objects (trucks, planes, buildings, etc..) at their correct sizes (it is easy to calculate that "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size with a simple formula). if you set a more narrow field of view in il2 on that same monitor you now get increased tunnel vision and those objects you look at will be artificially magnified, and if you set a wider field of view your peripheral vision might increase but the objects will now shrink in size (which means that to your visual cortex they will look further away). there are some incorrect sizes modeled for some in game objects in il2, like some of the buildings, but we'll skip that part for now to.

since il2 is promoting itself as a "simulation" and not an arcade game, you have to assume that what we see on our monitors in the game will be intended to SIMULATE what you'd see from a ww2 cockpit in real life, which means that 90% of the time most of us would fly with the "correct FoV" for our monitor size (so we can see all in-game objects correctly displayed in their right sizes and relative size ratios). since we have the limitation of sitting in our living rooms behind a computer monitor, there are some features added to the game to reduce those limitations, so you can briefly switch to a wider FoV to increase your situational awareness in a dogfight for ex, or you can briefly zoom into an object to get a more detailed view (aiming at a specific part of a slow moving bomber for ex), but you dont use either of those views to permanently fly in ! if you did that it would be very disorienting, either you have constant tunnel vision on a narrow 30 FoV, or on the 90 FoV setting your wider peripheral vission is being compressed into a display surface that is to small and everything therefore reduces in size and you are now looking at midgets in a lilyputter world and hunt for scale model toy aircraft in the virtual sky . neither of those views is one you'd want to fly in constantly for those exact reasons.


BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you are holding the donkey by the wrong end. you'r basically saying you are mainly flying in the artificially magnified 30 FoV view most of the time in il2 and seem to think that is normal, sorry it aint.

lets do some basic figures, if for ex you are using a 24' lcd and are sitting at roughly 60 cm from it, then your normal "correct FoV" setting should be 46.9 in il2 (46.9 degrees of your visual field is now occupied by the 52 cm wide screen in front of you, placed at 60 cm). you'd therefore have to chose either the 45 or 50 FoV to see objects in their correct sizes in this sim, both of which are significantly larger then the 30 you are claiming is the right setting.

so if you claim now that you can only see objects correctly in il2 with a 30 FoV setting, compared to your real life experience, then either everything in il2 is modeled to small, or when using the right "correct FoV" setting (45 or 50) for your monitor size you'd have to agree that objects are harder to see from the same distance compared to real life ! you cant have it both ways, its one or the other.


The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...

you have some convoluted thought processes going on in your head, get your perspective right from the start of your logic string. first, set your FoV correct for the display size and display technology you are using, so you see objects in their correct sizes, after that you can use additional monitors on either side to increase your peripheral vision in the game (il2 allows the use of multiple monitors). instead of that you are trying to tell me that while using your single 52 cm wide monitor you can magically set it to an artificially zoomed view and see objects "correctly in size" while still maintaining the peripheral vision of a 45 or 50 FoV setting, thats impossible with the physical laws of the universe we now live in.

so this time set your monitor to the correct view setting (45 or 50 for a 24' for ex), then fly at 1500 meters altitude in il2 and observe how well you can see a tank in a field, trucks on a road, or an aircraft parked on a grass strip etc.. then compare this to looking down from a real aircraft at 1500 m at various similar objects in the real world, there is a MAJOR difference to what you can see in real life compared to the difficulties we have in il2 (for this i am presuming you have normal 20/20 vision).

and as another example why dont you try and use that 30 FoV you claim is "normal" and do some formation flying in il2, its impossible. try and keep 100 m separation to the lead aircraft on your 10 or 2 o'clock position for ex, with a 30 FoV setting your vision is jumping about so much its impossible to keep an eye on him. similarly if you mainly use the 30 FoV for combat flying and have to scan the skies around you, its impossible because the sky sections you see are so small and you are completely vulnerable.

[zapatista]

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2?

nope, in il2 right now they are almost impossible to see, this is presuming your monitor is correctly calibrated for color and contrast, that you are using a native resolution on your lcd, and that you have your monitor set to the "correct" FoV setting. but you could however see them in real life in normal weather conditions.

numerous reports from ww2 pilots refer to distances they could spot aircraft at reliably, and il2 has a major problem with this because the 2e and 3e LoD models dont stand out enough against the terrain textures that form the background of the scenery below you.

How about SoW_BoB?

there is no indication right now that they will correct this in BoB, or that oleg and Co even recognize this is an issue. oleg did indicate more LoD models would be used than the 3 we have currently, so a more gradual progression of sizes and shapes should occur, but the important aspect is that they also need to make the distant LoD models stand out more.

right now you have pretty Lod models modeled with nice paint jobs being seen against pretty background terrain, but it all blends into one 2 dimensional flat visual soup that is very hard to make out any detail in. in real life a moving 3 dimensional object (the plane) would stand out much more when moving against a more distant stationary background terrain.

[Rama]

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works

I do understand it much better than YOU seems to do.... (and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job).

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°
So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.

If you use a 90° FOV (standard "non-zoomed" view of IL2), then you should have your eyes at:
9.58/tgt(90°/2) = 9.58" = 24cm to your screen
THAT would badly hurt your vision...

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.

[Rama]

Another quick look at your post, and I saw this


and as another example why dont you try and use that 30 FoV you claim is "normal" and do some formation flying in il2, its impossible. try and keep 100 m separation to the lead aircraft on your 10 or 2 o'clock position for ex, with a 30 FoV setting your vision is jumping about so much its impossible to keep an eye on him. similarly if you mainly use the 30 FoV for combat flying and have to scan the skies around you, its impossible because the sky sections you see are so small and you are completely vulnerable.

I agree with this, but this is irrelevant to assess which FOV correspond to your normal real FOV to the monitor.
This is another example of (and perfectly illustrate) the fact that a standard monitor can't give you a peripheral vision AND respecting at the same time the object size according to the FOV.
Either you have correct object size accoring you narrow field of view allowed by the narrow window of the monitor OR you have peripheral vision and reduced size of objects.
You can't have both at the same time EXCEPT if you're using a semi-hemispheric screen (what you have in real prophetional simulators).

As we say here, you can' own at the same time the butter, the money of the butter, the milk, the cow and the cowgirl... ;)

[zapatista]

and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job

you have a high opinion in yourself but dont seem to be able to use basic logic,simple reasoning and common sense. you'r also confusing yourself with all the little numbers you are quoting and dont understand the context.

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV, nothing more. that doesnt mean 30 FoV is "normal" to use in il2.

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°
no that doesnt prove anything, and isnt relevant to anybody else using il2, all it does is tell us how far rama sits from his monitor.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use.

what i suspect you are doing by claiming to set the 30 FoV and use il2 in that manner is "cheating", because you might be setting that 30 FoV and then additionally sit much closer then 1 meter to the screen so there is an additional magnification factor in the objects you look at in-game (the linear size of the objects will now look larger to you). but you cant fly like that and still claim to use the sim correctly, so your argument is mute.

a ballpark normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor with 0.25/0.30 mm pixels is about 50 or 60 cm (as was explained in detail in an earlier post here).
- only users with extremely large lcd monitors will sit a bit further away, for ex with a 32 or 37' westinghouse pc monitor might the user sit about 1 meter away (note those still use 1920 x 1200 resolution, so the pixels will be extremely large at about 0.50 mm and if you sit to close it looks very blocky
- even those that use a 30' lcd pc monitor will usually sit at similar distance, because the pixels on it are similar to a 20' monitor, and text size will therefore be the same (the 30' user just gets a much bigger desktop)

So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.
i dont think you will find a single other il2 user with a 22' monitor that sits about 1 meter from his screen, so by your own logic all those other users will see things incorrectly and objects will be shrunk, since they will be using a wider FoV and sit closer to their monitors.

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.
sure, i believe you :P

and of course, you are trying to have a meaningful discussion while pretending not to read what others say, but still claim only you is right eh

[zapatista]

Either you have correct object size accoring you narrow field of view allowed by the narrow window of the monitor OR you have peripheral vision and reduced size of objects.

that is not the point of the discussion here, and the hope is that if you are posting in this thread you are trying to participate in a meaningful manner in the topic under discussion.

the point is, for the average il2 user with a normal lcd pc monitor, and their FoV set correctly for their monitor size, they will NOT be able to spot in game objects (trucks, tanks, planes) at the same distances as you can spot them at in real life. in il2 your "spotting or tracking distance" is roughly 30% to what it is in real life.

try it for yourself, sit at a normal distance (say 60 or 50 cm) from your 22' lcd, set the il2 in-game FoV to the correct setting for you, then fly at 1500 meters over a map that has some single tanks or trucks place in a field, a small collum of trucks on a road, or a single aircraft placed on a grassy strip. you will NOT be able to spot them or track them.

then the next time you are in a real aircraft at about 1500 meters, look down if you can see a tractor in a field, cars/small-trucks on the road, or individual aircraft placed at an airfield. unless you have serious vision problems (because your eye sight is poor or because weather conditions are bad), you will be able to see them ! a simple solution for il2 would be to paint/color/shape the 2e and 3e LoD models so they stand out more when viewed against a background terrain.

the "climbing flight of hurricanes" at 1500 m below you in il2 is also impossible to spot in the normal view setting, so it is not SIMULATING what a real pilot could see in ww2, we are flying right now in a mini-bubble of situational awareness compared to the real experience in ww2.

yes in il2 you could use the 30 FoV zoom function to scan small sections of the ground or sky, but that is a snap view intended to be used for very brief moments to look at something in extra detail because it gives an artificial degree of magnification, we should not and can not rely on that view to fly in 100% of the time because it is such a disorienting tunnel vision view of a small section of the virtual sky we fly in !

[Rama]

you have a high opinion in yourself

Tellin what you I in real life is "having a high opinion of myself".... ;)
You like to fill your post with various insinuations, accusations and other irrelevant comments.
I stand on a clean conversation... please do the same...(or you will have the pleasure to have me not responding.... but maybe that's what you're searching....)

to be able to use basic logic

There's nothing more logic than mathematic (geometry).

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...
In any case I proved that what your first answer "completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen" IS completely wrong with a geometrical calculation.

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV

Exactly.... and do the calculation yourself for your monitor size, and you will be surprised to see how close the result will be from the real distance fromt the eyes to the screen.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ;) ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.
Maybe YOU should try to measure your eyes distance to the screen.... you'll probably be surprised.... ;)

normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor .../... is about 50 or 60 cm

Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....
What I know is that at a distance to the screen corresponding to a 30° FOV, I've no problem to spot planes/tanks/trucks on the field.... something which is much harder to do IRL than in the game.

try it for yourself, sit at a normal distance (say 60 or 50 cm) from your 22' lcd, set the il2 in-game FoV to the correct setting for you, then fly at 1500 meters over a map that has some single tanks or trucks place in a field, a small collum of trucks on a road, or a single aircraft placed on a grassy strip. you will NOT be able to spot them or track them.

Allready did... no problems for me. Even at higher altitudes than 1500m (in game).

then the next time you are in a real aircraft at about 1500 meters, look down if you can see a tractor in a field, cars/small-trucks on the road, or individual aircraft placed at an airfield

I allready answered this... and I invite you for a fligh on the area I usually fly over (on a sunny day). You will be the passenger, and so will have plenty of time to spot with your perfect vision whatever that may proove I'm wrong.... I'm living South-East France, in Toulouse... I even would be happy to accomodate you freely at my home during a few days (but you'll have to pay for your travel ticket from your living place to mine and back....)

a simple solution for il2 would be to paint/color/shape the 2e and 3e LoD models so they stand out more when viewed against a background terrain
So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...
why not adding some icons and labels if you want to follow this way . ;)

[JG52Uther]

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

[zapatista]

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

i'd say the OP disagrees with you

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes! :D
Flyby out

[JG52Uther]

High over southern England, in the area of the London docks, you lead a flight of Emils, and see a climbing flight of Huricanes. Just as you're about to signal your flight to attack, suddenly a little red light comes on in your cockpit...
Sorry guys. Just want to know how much fuel the Emil has left when that little read light comes on. Perhaps more to the point, how many more minutes can the Emil stay in the air? I'm sure this question has been answered before, somewhere. But is it accurately modeled in SoW?
thanks,
Flyby out

First post

[zapatista]

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...

nope, i know exactly what my screen size and correct FoV is for my setup

the problem i have with what you are saying is that you are pretending there is a "special rama way" to use an lcd monitor, and there isnt. i have given you the detailed reason why monitors with various display technology have a correct viewing distance to use them, and you are pretending it doesnt apply to you.

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ;) ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.

nope i dont believe anybody with a 22' lcd will sit at about 1 meter from it for normal day to day office use, and can still see text with normal font size settings and not produce eye strain, or that you will sit at that distance for gaming. if you do, then you are the odd one out, just dont try and tell me it is normal, cause it aint.

btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen).

what i think you are doing this just for the sake of arguing here and pretending visibility in il2 is correct, but in fact you have set your monitor at 30 FoV but then sit at 1/2 the "correct" 90 cm viewing distance for it, so objects magnify another 50% on top of their already increased size displayed at 30 FoV. with that you have then created a 4x magnification and are now trying to tell me you can see things in il2 like you do in real life.



Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

not quite, the "normal" default view in il2 is 70 i believe, but the only thing that matters is that this normal view is only "normal" if you have a 30' lcd and sit at the correct viewing distance for that type of lcd display technology.

just try it for your monitor, sit at the correct 50 or 60 cm from it, set your FoV accordingly, and compare it to the visibility you would have in real life for objects seen at 1500 meters distance, the problem in il2 is very obvious.

you seem to think i made up the issue of "correct viewing distances" for various resolutions, screen sizes, and display technology. there is 100's of articles written on that topic, and the ballpark figures are very straightforward to understand for lcd's. for you to pretend it is normal to sit at about 1 meter from a 22' lcd pc monitor is..., well, odd.

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....
the game could know it if during original installation it asks you what size monitor you have and what resolution you use, some games already do that (but they ask it together with checking cpu power and ram, so they set the level of detail in game your pc can cope with). for il2/BoB it could then set the "correct" FoV as default, and you have 2 snap views for increased peripheral vision or zoom effects. after that users can still edit the options like they do for other settings to adjust it further to their personal liking.

So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...
who said anything about painting objects in red ? all that is need is to make them either darker, lighter, or a bit more reflective for ex, i am sure some grafix artist could come up with some simple suggestions.

[robtek]

@JG52Uther

didn´t you know that one only quotes whats convenient for his cause????

[zapatista]

First post

so you cant be bothered reading the actual thread, but will make multiple off topic posts in it to complain you dont like what the OP is discussing ?

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes! :D
Flyby out

[JG52Uther]

I quoted the OPs first post on the first page.Its also the title of the thread.Twist it how you like. :)

[Rama]

nope, i know exactly what my screen size and correct FoV is for my setup

Then I'm sorry for your eyes health...

nope i dont believe .../...

The fact you don't believe don't make it less true.... as I invited you to verify your saying IRL (offering you free accomodation and the flight), you may also verify with your own meter the distance from my eyes to the screen on my PC setting.

btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen).

funny.... ;)
Who do you say is doing this "just for the sake of arguing" ???

Anyway... you have a formal invitation so you can confront both IRL and in the game your sayings to mine... it's just up to you...

[zapatista]

The fact you don't believe don't make it less true.... as I invited you to verify your saying IRL (offering you free accomodation and the flight), you may also verify with your own meter the distance from my eyes to the screen on my PC setting.
since you bought the pc and monitor and use it in the privacy of your own home, you can use it whatever way you like, but it is not the normal or intended viewing distance for a 22' lcd so you cant generalize that a 1 meter viewing distance is "normal" for other il2 users with a 22' lcd screen.

what i did suggest you'd try, is in il2 set your FoV correctly while you sit at the "normal" viewing distance that this type of monitor is intended to be used at (and similar to what most other lcd users would be viewing it from), say roughly 50 or 60 cm distance between your eyes and the screen, and then compare it to what you see in real life.

presuming your monitor is correctly calibrated, you will find that il2 objects (trucks/tanks/planes) when seen at 1500 meters distance against the textures of a ground terrain background, are nearly impossible to locate, identify or track, compared to what you can see in real life with the naked eye from the same distance (and as is extensively documented from historical accounts by pilots in ww2).

the main reason for this problem in il2, and some other games, is that in il2 the 2e and 3e LoD models might look pretty when looked at full screen in a grafix editor, but when they are shrunk down to the correct sizes the same object will be seen at from 1000 or 1500 meters, then the flat 2D object they are on a pc monitor will cause them to blend in WAY to much with the background terrain textures.

and no, i dont believe that you are flying il2 while having it set to 30 FoV most of the time, the tunnel vision it creates is to disorienting to fly like that, you cant keep track of the other planes in your flight, or your position on the map, the ground target you are hunting for, or the enemy planes in your vicinity. whatever monitor people are using in il2, the expectation would be that you then set the "correct FoV" for your screensize, and then see the il2 in-game objects in the il2 virtual world exactly as you would see them in real life (since this is claimed to be a simulator, not arcade game). you can then briefly snap to a wider or more narrow FoV when so needed, but that would only be for brief moments.


funny.... ;)
Who do you say is doing this "just for the sake of arguing" ???
there are 3 things that happen when you set your il2 FoV to an artificially enlarged view setting like you are doing, and are using a 30 FoV and then also have your eyes closer to the monitor then the "correct" 90 cm distance,
- first the il2 in game objects will be seen as much larger on screen (because your zoom factor is larger at 30 then at 45 or 50 FoV and those objects will be a physically bigger )
- secondly, if your normal viewing distance should be 91 cm for a 30 FoV on a 22' lcd, and you are then really viewing those il2 in-game objects at 50% the screen distance you are quoting (which i think you are doing here just for the sake of arguing that visibility in il2 is correct), this closer screen viewing distance will then magnify those objects 2x in size compared to what the rest of us see. so yes, you even leaning a 10cm closer then the 91cm you quoted will significantly increase object size and visibility.
- thirdly, changing the FoV setting (using a smaller setting then "normal" for your screen size) will also affect the LoD model transition distances, so you might well be looking at a much larger object like a 2e LoD model while other il2 users here might see a much less detailed and smaller 3e LoD model for ex, or you might be looking at a 3e LoD model and other players might be seeing a "dot" (we'd need to know the exact transition distances for LoD models, and LoD to dot transition distances, to see if that is applicable here for the 1500m objects)

Anyway... you have a formal invitation so you can confront both IRL and in the game your sayings to mine... it's just up to you...
thx for the invitation, at the moment i think it would be much more simple for you to try and sit at the more correct closer distance from your monitor, set the correct larger FoV in il2, and then while flying at 1500 meters in il2 (being aware of keeping your eye to screen distance constant), compare how easy/hard it is to spot those trucks/tanks/planes on the ground compared to real life.

[Rama]

while flying at 1500 meters in il2 (being aware of keeping your eye to screen distance constant), compare how easy/hard it is to spot those trucks/tanks/planes on the ground compared to real life.

As I allready said, I've allready done this.
Stopping the argument there. If you want to know, you have my invitation.

[Flyby]

Meanwhile, those Hurricanes seem to have vanished from view. The flight of Emils is desperately trying to relocate them. Suddenly number 4's engine brews up with white smoke streaming back. He rolls inverted and leaves his plane. Fight's on! Then there's that damned little red light!
Flyby out

[zapatista]

try it for yourself, sit at a normal distance (say 60 or 50 cm) from your 22' lcd, set the il2 in-game FoV to the correct setting for you (insert: ie a FoV of 50 or 45 in your case with a 22' lcd), then fly at 1500 meters over a map that has some single tanks or trucks place in a field, a small collum of trucks on a road, or a single aircraft placed on a grassy strip. you will NOT be able to spot them or track them.

Allready did... no problems for me. Even at higher altitudes than 1500m (in game).

and i still dont believe you, maybe when you use a 30 FoV and sit 1/2 the correct distance from your monitor for that FoV setting (ie viewing the screen from 45 cm with a 30 Fov on a 22' lcd), because then you have introduced an additional artificial 4x magnification.

neither do i believe you that you can fly il2 in a 30 FoV most of the time and use the flightsim in the normal manner it is intended (getting airborne, locating ground targets and strafing/bombing them, locating/identifying/tracking/engaging/combat-maneuvering with enemy aicraft, map reading, and returning to airbase with landing)

As I allready said, I've allready done this.
Stopping the argument there. If you want to know, you have my invitation.
up your invitation to include the plane ride down there and you have a deal. any flight over 4 hrs has to be business class i am afraid, same as work related travel for me under normal conditions ;)

i do visit friends sometimes in aix en provence or prades (in the pyrenees), so who knows one day i might be in the area.

[zapatista]

Meanwhile, those Hurricanes seem to have vanished from view. The flight of Emils is desperately trying to relocate them. Suddenly number 4's engine brews up with white smoke streaming back. He rolls inverted and leaves his plane. Fight's on! Then there's that damned little red light!
Flyby out

i am really looking forward to BoB, but untill there are more details about features and improvements, we can only speculate on how realistic that scenario will be.

has oleg even confirmed we will get real size maps ? right now most maps in il2 are scaled down to reduce flying time to target. additionally you'd need to have varying fuel consumption with the aircraft being flown with different engine settings (mixture, rpm, headwind/tailwind, heat, altitude etc), which i dont think is the case now.

[JG52Uther]

IIRC,and it was years ago LOL,Oleg said there would be an 'online' map and a realistic map.I could be wrong of course.
For some reason he thinks a lot of people want quick arcade furballs instead of a long flight with time spent forming up,getting into formation,and flying for 40 minutes to get to target!
Even one of the unofficial maps for il2 will involve an 8 hour flight across Europe and back.

[Flyby]

I know what you mean, Uther. I once made a coop mission over the Pacific. It would have lasted over an hour, but everyone got tired of just flying along to the target, a nd left. But surely someone will want to recreate the full realism of taking off, forming up and flying to the target area. I'd like to do it, but it would make for a bad coop if the Luftwaffe had to do all that to fly to the combat area while the RAF had to sit and wait for the "scramble!" alert. Still, it would make for a nice coop for the hardcore... ;) Will probably be a bad idea to do so on a belly full of beer though! :D
Flyby out

[Rama]

neither do i believe you that you can fly il2 in a 30 FoV most of the time.../...

I never said "most of the time", I said I switch when needed... (and have no problems switching quicklly to scan alternativelly the sky around and the ground below).

i do visit friends sometimes in aix en provence or prades (in the pyrenees), so who knows one day i might be in the area.

Drop me a PM when you have the opportunity... I'll send my coordinates in return.