Early, Overall thoughts on WotN

[Zechnophobe]

I've played all the KB games since Legend, and played through them each multiple times. I've looked forward to WotN for a while now, and having played through to Arlania, wanted to give some thoughts on how I feel things are.


Pacing
With about 12 hours into the game, I feel this is an actual problem for the game. Unlike previous titles, it has a lot more hard 'gating' encounters in the game. Uldar/Ahriman/Eric fights are all required to simply leave the first area. The Necro Spider is required to leave the first islands. I assume there will be even more later on. To be honest, I feel this is far too strict, especially considering how few options you get before each bottleneck. You have a grand total of 8 different possible units (plus spider/snake trash) before leaving the first island. 8! And yet that's about 4 hours of play right there. Opening up new areas allows you to go into 'explore' mode, where you have fun just finding new things to buy, new items on the ground, and new armies to recruit. By putting them behind 'grind' walls, I feel we spend too long being 'forced' to fight certain battles over and over again.

Repitition
This is another big issue. Not only are we not getting to progress through the game at our own rate, but the limit to the number and types of units you can use (and rage abilities too!) combined with the limited scope of opponents, means you fight almost the exact same battle over and over again. Necro/skel/skel archer/zombie fight? For the 50th time?

One of the strengths of previous titles is how they would mix up the armies each play through, and you'd occasionally get interesting combinations. But the ridiculous amount of Undead for the first 12 hours of gameplay leaves you pretty fatigued from it. In Armored Princess, you had different islands each with noticeably different troops to recruit, and enemies to kill. And you could skip back and forth between at least the first three, right from the very start.

Class Skills

This is clearly the biggest strength of WotN so far. The three class trees are the most interesting that I've seen yet in the three games. We have a clear rage/leadership/magic split in specialization, and there are a mix of strong skills in all three. That said, there are still a few weird hiccups. The Rune magic skill is fairly high in the magic tree, and yet most of the spells we find early game are Runic, so non-mages have difficulty doing much early. Further more, access to the full 'rage' mechanic doesn't happen until AFTER the first major gating encounter (ahriman/uldar/eric). This means that the poor Viking class has the weakest start for both of the first two gates, since one doesn't let him use anything but an un upgraded 'viking vortex' and the other doesn't let him use anything at all!

Also, you can't level up the rage abilities of Valkyries you don't have, meaning that there is a feeling that you want to power through to unlock the valkyries just so you can level them up as you see fit.

Locations

WotN has some really nice looking zones, so far. I'm really pleased with them. Each island is also quite sizeable, unlike the Armored Princess islands that were fairly small.

That said, the way you move through them is a little bit painful. Instead of the nice free-form 'find the map, go there' system, that also gave access to wanderer scrolls, you instead have a more linear 'do this, do that' style motion. Frankly, I'm rather sad that you encounter wanderer scrolls so much less in the early game, as they gave some interesting depth to complicated fights. The summon scrolls (do they even exist?) let you gain access to a wide variety of units you otherwise couldn't. They don't seem to be as big of a factor this time around.


Story

This has looked very good. The actual story is much bigger in this game than previous ones. It has a more traditional feel with the 'prince wanting to be king' vibe. I would say it isn't quite as integrated as Armored Princess was. In AP you had 8 stones you had to retreive, and could do so in (basically) the order you desired, and drove you to go to the challenging locations as you became strong enough to do so. The more linear story in WotN, while more interesting in the terms of plot, also ends up being a bit too controlling.


Summary

All in All, I still find the game fun, but I feel there are a lot of missed opportunities. EVERY game previous to this one has had the struggle of 'no good options early' for your army. Basic human troops and Royal snakes? Again? The fact that WotN makes this same mistake, and makes it SO MUCH worse is very aggravating. The game seems to have more bugs, and mistranslations than previous titles, and some tool tips seem to miss important information.

It's not quite the quality of experience I was hoping for, and am really hoping some of the issues get fixed.

[PennyT18]

Some things better, some not so much. A lot more bugs than I experienced with the previous two games but then I didn't get in on them when they were first released. This is the second game this year I've pre-purchased and since they both have bugs, I'm assuming this is the norm. I do have a few bugs to post in the thread that I haven't seen yet.

I also learned of a few mistakes I've made in completing a couple of quests, which tempts me to just start over from scratch. Learning experience, I guess.

Overall, I'm still looking forward to seeing what else the game has to offer.

[camelotcrusade]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think we have similar expectations from the game.

Two things I would add. For me, the mix of magical items wasn't very interesting. I didn't find anything in shops worth buying since they just handed me a wonderful helmet and chest (preorder heh) and a really good weapon and artifact (tooth necklace) plus a free regalia (bird). That didn't leave many slots to worry about or play with. The only thing I really wanted was regalia because the valkyrie wants it and none are for sale in my game.

On the plus side, I thik the music is great and the new themes are stirring and fitting.

[Highborne]

The biggest complaint I have is no Rage skills and no leveling until 2nd island, it is lame and boring. Also, as you pointed out the Viking class is screwed over pretty hard by this.
Easy fix would be allow all the other Rage skills that can be learned except Valk and level as normal (think about it, your first Rage skill is you attacking the enemy...how is that NOT leveling by using it). So the Ice Wall, Ice Attack should be able to be learned and leveled before meeting Valk #1.

I think there is some variety of units on the first four islands, but it is limit to primarily vikings because the rest just don't have the numbers to support playing with them unless you are amazingly good at a no-loss scenario (Dwarves, Plants, Bears (all versions)/Snakes/Fish/Wolves/Spiders, minor Undead (from a boat iirc), Pirates/Marauders, a few Trolls and Jotuns). However, besides running maybe a Jotun, Pirates/Mauraders and Bears the rest are in so little numbers...it isn't feasible to even attempt armies other than vikings.

Finally, Rune Mages are ridiculously overpowered. Just saying.

And yes, lack of Regalia...I have found maybe 4 (including Dragon Gem for 200k) and I dunno if I will ever be able to upgrade my valk to level 5.

[blacklegionary]

The Valkyries are the most troublesome for me, playing the Viking I use rage skill a lot, that lead to the later Valkyries' skill become very hard to level (high level already when I get them). And I also find myself want to power through the game early to get all the Valkyries, This is really a handicap for Viking class.
I havent went through much of the game but it seems longer than previous KB game (not counting you do 1 battle in a few hours).

[Zechnophobe]

Finally, Rune Mages are ridiculously overpowered. Just saying.


Run and tell that.

Previous 'ressurection engines' are generally more complicated than "rune mage, anything that can summon, and Runic Word'

I mean, Runic Word is as cheap a spell as they come. And if all you care about is infinite summons? Well the phantom-royal griffin strategy is a million times better when it costs 3 mana instead of 25.

[Highborne]

I run Royal Griffons, Inquisitors, Paladins, Archers, Rune Mages.

Use Runic Word for runes on Rune Mage round 1.
Use Laser Beam to wreck a ranged stack.
Hit things with Inq and Archers.
Griffons either wait/summon griffons or buff units.
Paladins make Rune Mages go again.

Rune Mages make copies of Paladins which cycled back to Rune Mage for more Paladin stacks.

End of Turn use Laser beam to kill 1-2 more stacks.

Summoned Paladin Stacks tank everything.

Win battle; I am easily beating invincible enemies with no losses without resorting to mass resurrection, maybe res for 2 rounds at the end.

[Mandea]

My problem concerns bugs. In Verlania there is a High archmage rezo tower and no matter how much you click nothing happens, although there is a quest icon above it. I found a new upgradable artefact which cannot be upgraded. You click upgrade- ok and nothing happens.
And so on and so forth. nothing too important but annoying nonetheless.

[Nevar]

Sorry wrong thread. This is what I get for multi-tabbing.

[Fatt_Shade]

@Highborne The biggest complaint I have is no Rage skills and no leveling until 2nd island, it is lame and boring. Also, as you pointed out the Viking class is screwed over pretty hard by this. How about in the Legend where for first to get rage box you need to finish couple of main quests and even then you get spirits 1by1 not all of them together (like is in AP/CW where pet dragon is available from start).

[Highborne]

@Highborne How about in the Legend where for first to get rage box you need to finish couple of main quests and even then you get spirits 1by1 not all of them together (like is in AP/CW where pet dragon is available from start).

So? In this game you have the skill, and it sucks for the first island because it never levels.

If they wanted it to feel like TL then you should get it after a few quests and have it level as normal, which would be infinitely more useful than having it at level 1 and not being able to level it until level 6+ due to being on 2nd island.

This has been debated multiple times already, the Viking class feels weak starting because of crappy rage ability.
No leveling means it feels sloppy when playing and having rage that doesn't level.
First island probably needs a slight tweak for a no-loss doable without stupid RNG of rerolling the island to suit your needs for final 2 battles.

Making this level would be an elegant solution and one where the first island would be doable as a no-loss impossible difficulty with any class.

[BB Shockwave]

Run and tell that.

Previous 'ressurection engines' are generally more complicated than "rune mage, anything that can summon, and Runic Word'

I mean, Runic Word is as cheap a spell as they come. And if all you care about is infinite summons? Well the phantom-royal griffin strategy is a million times better when it costs 3 mana instead of 25.

Would someone describe what they are like now? I heard they are demoted to Level 4 and changed overall...

In fact, a nice Unit list/ability description would be great too for all new/changed units. I noticed Cold now exists separately as a damage type, and for example Ghosts now deal cold damage, etc...

[Highborne]

Would someone describe what they are like now? I heard they are demoted to Level 4 and changed overall...

In fact, a nice Unit list/ability description would be great too for all new/changed units. I noticed Cold now exists separately as a damage type, and for example Ghosts now deal cold damage, etc...

They have 3 abilities.

Laser Beam
Duplicate
More Runes

Each ability uses 1 rune and you start with 3 random runes.

The more unused runes you have in inventory (Might, Mind, Magic) up to 40 of each powers up the spells (200% for laser, 40% more troops for duplicate, and +1 runes per 10 Mind runes for the More Runes).

Thus, you can essentially make a no-loss team with just Rune Mage + Paladin + whatever.

As you can infinitely phantom paladin to res, and infinitely use Laser to crit for 10-20k damage to clear stacks, and have infinite runes via rune ability AND the rune magic that grants runes to a specific troop...

Yea...

[Mandea]

true, I used rune mages+paladin for many fights and no loss allthough I wasn't striving for no loss. I got bored and got some nice elves now.

[Colbert30]

They have 3 abilities.

Laser Beam
Duplicate
More Runes

Each ability uses 1 rune and you start with 3 random runes.

The more unused runes you have in inventory (Might, Mind, Magic) up to 40 of each powers up the spells (200% for laser, 40% more troops for duplicate, and +1 runes per 10 Mind runes for the More Runes).

Thus, you can essentially make a no-loss team with just Rune Mage + Paladin + whatever.

As you can infinitely phantom paladin to res, and infinitely use Laser to crit for 10-20k damage to clear stacks, and have infinite runes via rune ability AND the rune magic that grants runes to a specific troop...

Yea...

WoW! This will be corrected for sure...

On topic: This is a pretty good review, I'd say. The lack of freedom in choices and exploration, specially, will make replayability in this game a lot less appealing.

[DGDobrev]

The biggest gripe that I am having right now, is that by getting a new KB game, I really expect it to be better than its predecessors, KBAP & KBCW. However, with each following battle and hour of play, I can't help but think that actually they took a step backwards... I had really hoped that 1C would try to outgrow the KBAP mechanic, and go for a more open world, with more options, allow the players to crate their own adventure and play the game as they like to - not putting you through a corridor and completely limiting your options...

The first island is outright boring. Go a few paces forward, fight undead. Do it again. Rinse and repeat will be your fave song 99% of the time. I can only recall 2 battles with snakes during a quest. Yay...

I am starting to think that the developers actually wanted to try to make the game more difficult to do without losses, as well as making impossible more difficult, but in doing so, destroyed some of the aspects that players love - exploration, use of imagination, and the desire for an open world. In my opinion, it would have been awesome to play KB in an open world, where the player can decide what to do and when to do it. It allows for so much strategy, which pretty much lacks here. The game forces the player into a High-HP mode unit selection right from the beginning - unless you feel like buying a new stack of Slingers every few battles...

I do hope things improve on the next few maps, because I cant help but feeling that I have been put to do a boring chore for someone... Doing the same thing over and over doesn't really make for a fun game. Heck, as I entered the second map and fought an enemy that did not feature undead, I selected the Anti-Undead Edda without thinking, because it became kind of a habit...

Damn it, a game isn't only about having the highest score, people... Give us more options to have fun... I hate to see the fun coming as a paid DLC a few months later...

[Nevar]

The repetitiveness is really annoying. I made a new game as a Soothsayer and fighting through all those undead units again almost makes me want to throw up.

I even installed the "all units available" mod so I could at least use a different army, but yeah, the sheer number of skeletons, zombies and necromancers in this game are a huge turn-off.

[Mandea]

it relates to the story (fighting all those undead), but unfortunately they overdid it. From island 5 on it's way better, but still a little tedious.

[Razorflame]

well at least they said what was coming

an invasion of undead armies:p

can't say they lied lol:P


but the beginning is really ridicoulous

[DGDobrev]

Yes... This is the end of 2012 - and there are so many games that allow for much more fun than KB does even for less money. Games, that allow for awesome replayability and numerous options. I am sad to see that they are turning KB into a competition game where all you want to do is get to the end of the game the fastest way possible and get a good score.

Games are not only about score and bragging rights, you know...

Ugh, Nevar, I feel for you... I also started a Soothsayer after the Skald, and I gotta say I am not seeing anything different, it is the same boring chore of casting spells/bashing undead between the eyes, as the trainer NPC's put it...

[camelotcrusade]

Yeah, maybe in addition to the undead invasion they could have had a bandit uprising at the same time trying to take advantage of the situation. So you at least got to fight bandits too. Part of the fun in earlier KBs was the fact that sooner or laster you'd encounter an enemy army that you weren't optimized to destroy. So you had to decide whether to use your less ideal troops and maybe take losses, or whether to reorganize for those fights. But in WoTN so far I haven't felt stretched that way.

[Nevar]

Yeah, maybe in addition to the undead invasion they could have had a bandit uprising at the same time trying to take advantage of the situation. So you at least got to fight bandits too. Part of the fun in earlier KBs was the fact that sooner or laster you'd encounter an enemy army that you weren't optimized to destroy. So you had to decide whether to use your less ideal troops and maybe take losses, or whether to reorganize for those fights. But in WoTN so far I haven't felt stretched that way.

This. I wound up trying to look for a good army to kill undead quickly.

At first I tried to be clever and run Undead, too, but that just made it even more tedious. It was like watching two guys stab each other with spoons, since Undead are immune to their own unique attributes (Plague and Curse, I mean).

In the end, I went with an army that had Paladins, Jarls, Battle Maidens, Assassins and Soothsayers. Bear in mind I'm using the "all units available at start" mod for my Soothsayer file.

Lots of extra turns available and I plowed through Nordlig with a lot of 2 or 3-round wins. I wonder how viable this is late game with Distraction level 3. Not gonna find out with this file since I'm just using an army while I still don't have good summons.

Could be worth looking into for my Skald, though.

Slight derail there. My apologies.

[Karlos]

Yes... This is the end of 2012 - and there are so many games that allow for much more fun than KB does even for less money. Games, that allow for awesome replayability and numerous options. I am sad to see that they are turning KB into a competition game where all you want to do is get to the end of the game the fastest way possible and get a good score.

Games are not only about score and bragging rights, you know...

Ugh, Nevar, I feel for you... I also started a Soothsayer after the Skald, and I gotta say I am not seeing anything different, it is the same boring chore of casting spells/bashing undead between the eyes, as the trainer NPC's put it...

Frankly, for me it's the other way around. I absolutely adore the KB franchise but haven't played any KB game for more than a year. When I found out that WoTN is coming to Steam (like a week before the release :) I was ecstatic.

Now that I'm playing I find it as fun and addictive as ever. I personally don't find WoTN any more or less "repetitive" than the previous installments. Yes, I can imagine the hordes of undead on the first island can be a bit tedious on the third or fourth playthrough but I just started a second game and don't mind it at all. As for going through the game and bashing enemies on the head, well, that's pretty much what KB is all about :)

Sure, not all is rosy, I did expect more new units, some deeper changes to the skill trees and gameplay mechanics - and I don't find the rune system very important or interesting (I almost never use the runes, doesn't seem to have that much an impact) - but those are only minor quibbles. I don't think WoTN is better or worse than the predecessors. It's almost completely the same and that's (mostly) a good thing.

But if

[DGDobrev]

Yeah, maybe in addition to the undead invasion they could have had a bandit uprising at the same time trying to take advantage of the situation. So you at least got to fight bandits too. Part of the fun in earlier KBs was the fact that sooner or laster you'd encounter an enemy army that you weren't optimized to destroy. So you had to decide whether to use your less ideal troops and maybe take losses, or whether to reorganize for those fights. But in WoTN so far I haven't felt stretched that way.

+1 on that. There are plenty of story-creating elements that could have been used. I agree that the undead are rightfully there, but how about a demon, who entered the wrong portal and showed up right where it wasn't supposed to be, right on our doorstep? Or a shipwrecked human expedition? Pirates and Bandits who take advantage of the chaos? More animal life to prey on?

The way I see it, is that everyone had quite high hopes for the sequel, and we just got another KBAP-type game, but this time with additional limitations.

[BB Shockwave]

This. I wound up trying to look for a good army to kill undead quickly.

At first I tried to be clever and run Undead, too, but that just made it even more tedious. It was like watching two guys stab each other with spoons, since Undead are immune to their own unique attributes (Plague and Curse, I mean).


LOL, reminds me of my own loooong trudging through the Dead Lands in The Legend, when I was playing a Mage with Undead army. :) Vampires fighting Vampires was indeed like watching people fight with spoons. :D
That said, I quickly found that Cursed Ghosts are a lifesaver there - most undead inflict physical or poison damage, so just stone-skin the ghosts and they can even stand up to Death Knights while spells and Necromancers whittle them down from afar. Of course, no life drain meant I had to use my "home-brew" Animate Dead spell a lot. (I just didn't like that you had no way to resurrect Undead troops, like in Heroes games).

[BB Shockwave]

The repetitiveness is really annoying. I made a new game as a Soothsayer and fighting through all those undead units again almost makes me want to throw up.

I even installed the "all units available" mod so I could at least use a different army, but yeah, the sheer number of skeletons, zombies and necromancers in this game are a huge turn-off.

That, and the HIGH Level of the enemies you face! I remember in The Legend, when I first met Necromancers or Ancient Vampires and Death Knights, it was a moment of awe, seeing those imposing creatures and wondering "can I beat those with my army of level 1-3 units?" This 'magic' is gone now when you run into them at every second turn. It's like if in Diablo, you'd run into balrogs and black knights in the very first catacomb, instead of in hell.

The game progresses too soon. It throws you into the thick of things too fast. I want to experience the game slowly. In AP, on the first island you were limited to low-level Human units, Dragonflies and Snakes, and that was fun - because you also faced similar enemies. Remember that first - very clever trap, btw - fight with your first dragon, where you are trapped in a cave and see that big green coming at you? Now, that was an "OMG!" moment... Here, you basically run into a mini-Kalador boss at the end of the first island. Anticlimatic.

I actually wish we had a working editor and people could start and make their own KB campaigns... 'cause I feel some people could do it better.

[Khornn]

Everything feels very copy & pasted from KB:TL, with only minor changes. On some areas it's really blatant that they just went through them in a hurry without much thought, there are flying buildings and mountains because they haven't been placed with enough care, empty spaces in walls where buildings used to be, undead armies everywhere instead of variety, etc...

I have played my first play through on Normal difficulty now for 64h according to Steam and I've maybe completed ~80% of the game, still encountering undead armies on a regular basis. They don't even vary in their composition, so it becomes monotonous labor where I'm just going through the motions instead of getting challenged by the game (move units in tactics mode, choose Edda, cast Phantom, use Rage skill, shoot with mages, hug the enemy archers with my phantom griffons = win, then repeat about a zillion times for every undead army on the map).

[Nevar]

They don't even vary in their composition, so it becomes monotonous labor where I'm just going through the motions instead of getting challenged by the game (move units in tactics mode, choose Edda, cast Phantom, use Rage skill, shoot with mages, hug the enemy archers with my phantom griffons = win, then repeat about a zillion times for every undead army on the map).

Considering how there are less than a dozen undead units, it's probably difficult to vary unit composition.

You know, if they'd introduced more undead units, the game would've been a little less tedious. I kept seeing mention of ghouls, which got me excited, only to find out there are no new undead units in the game at all.

I mean, I would've been happy with new units that were just retextures as long as they played differently.

[DGDobrev]

So would I :) As things stand, the game is a chore. It wouldn't have hurt if we were allowed to do some cool stuff at the beginning, rather than only in mid to late game. KBAP had it - the baby dragon's progression was kinda fast, and he was super cute.

Unfortunately, WotN forces the player into pointless repetition for a long time. Use Axe Throwers, Soothsayers (rest is whatever), advance a few paces, beat the undead army using the only damn rage skill you are given for last hits whenever possible until you get the XP medal. Advance a few more squares, beat the next one with the same composition. Rinse and repeat... Kinda takes the fun out of a no-loss game too, as for the first time I felt an inner urge to skip ahead and see new stuff regardless how the battles played and whether I lost units or not - and each and every single no-loss challenge (especially the player created ones) was a big part of this game.

That allowed everyone to forge a new story, to offer ideas for another play-through, to up the replayability of the game. I dont see how differently can this one play for the first 10 hours or so... The game is beating you on the head with the same types of units over and over.

[Colbert30]

I wonder what people are saying in the russian forums... I imagine devs go there more often, being their native language. Not that I think they don't speak English, but I suppose it's easier for them.

Anyway, given the nature of the story and its somewhat linearity, out of giving us random or more variety in units/spells for castles, etc. (which would go a looong way, btw), I don't know if they can do much.

But I suppose that right now their priority is the hunting and fixing of bugs and crashes. So mods will have to suffice for now.

[BB Shockwave]

Considering how there are less than a dozen undead units, it's probably difficult to vary unit composition.

You know, if they'd introduced more undead units, the game would've been a little less tedious. I kept seeing mention of ghouls, which got me excited, only to find out there are no new undead units in the game at all.

I mean, I would've been happy with new units that were just retextures as long as they played differently.

Oh yeah, when the blacksmith said ghouls, I too thought we would get them... a fast undead skirmisher, maybe with the ability to paralyze like Dragonflies. :(

[DGDobrev]

I wonder what people are saying in the russian forums... I imagine devs go there more often, being their native language. Not that I think they don't speak English, but I suppose it's easier for them.

Anyway, given the nature of the story and its somewhat linearity, out of giving us random or more variety in units/spells for castles, etc. (which would go a looong way, btw), I don't know if they can do much.

But I suppose that right now their priority is the hunting and fixing of bugs and crashes. So mods will have to suffice for now.

I can assure you, it isn't much more different than it is here. I speak Russian too, so I go from time to time to the other forum to check if your russian brothers in arms (zini4_tha_grunt for example) created something new.

Most of the time they talk about the bugs - however, since many of the threads are current, I can't escape the conclusion that the game was launched in EN and RU together. We have more stuff listed here as bugs, than there. They also include various glitches (like shield bash stunning before the animation, and such).

They also have a first impressions topic, and I am sad to say, the opinion doesn't differ much than our own. Some are pleased to have a new KB with new units, others dislike the repetition (mainly the veterans) - and others say that if you don't like the game, you can always go back to the Red Sands KBAP mod.

They are also trying for a no-loss, but some hit a brick wall, others do the things we do here in a similar fashion. Oh well...

[Bhruic]

They also have a first impressions topic, and I am sad to say, the opinion doesn't differ much than our own. Some are pleased to have a new KB with new units, others dislike the repetition (mainly the veterans) - and others say that if you don't like the game, you can always go back to the Red Sands KBAP mod.

I have to agree with the general perception that the game doesn't live up to its predecessors. With that said, however, it's still a fun game, just not as fun as the previous iterations. I'm a bit disappointed with it, but I've still put in numerous hours playing it, and this with all the other games that came out recently vying for my attention.

[bsctgod]

Boy that first island was a chore!

go talk to this guy, then this guy, then back to the same guy, kill your hundredth undead army, talk to this other guy, go talk to the same guy again, now track down 4 evil heroes, who just happen to have....undead armies! Meanwhile, the experience is very slow, I am sitting on a ton of scrolls because I've got a lot of mana, but I haven't gotten enough magic runes to even obtain Order or Distortion Magic to start using them. Plus Rage isn't advancing by design so I keep casting the same Viking rage ability for 4-cost once per turn hoping to cause a little damage to the same undead.

Not something I am eager to go through in multiple playthroughs. :-x

/rant off

Hopefully the 2nd island will be better, though from the slight exploring, it looks pretty linear.