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-)-MAILMAN-
10-26-2012, 03:00 AM
In the game we have the following listed aircraft?

P-51B-NA

P-51C-NT

Which production block do these two aircraft represent?

In the paint schemes folder each is listed as follows:

P-51B-1-NA
P-51C-10-NT

Bearcat
10-26-2012, 03:23 PM
The NTs were manufactured in Dallas Texas while the NAs were manufactured in Inglewood Ca. For the game's sake the P-51C has the Malcolm hood.. The B has the standard canopy.. In this sim in order to differentiate between modded and stock versions of the P-51D20 the modders designated the mod version as P-51D20NT while the stock version remains NA.


You can use any P-51 B skin in a C and vice versa, although there are different skins for both but there are subtle differences if you are a perfectionist and want accuracy. The P-51 Ds use a different skin because the shape of the planes is different.

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr95/99th_Bearcat/P-51C.jpg
Note the line at the base of the canopy on the skins for the P-51C. That is because the Malcolm hood slid back. The C skin is also what you would use on the MkIIIs as well.
http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr95/99th_Bearcat/P-51B.jpg
Note the absence of the line onthe B skins.. that is because the B has a birdcage and opened.

ElAurens
10-26-2012, 05:47 PM
We still need an Allison engined version.

:cool:

Fenrir
10-26-2012, 06:19 PM
We still need the high backed versions to have their wings 3d model corrected too....

fruitbat
10-26-2012, 07:15 PM
We still need the high backed versions to have their wings 3d model corrected too....

But at what cost? If its going to break all the existing skins available, thats quite a high price to pay. If it can be done without doing this, then +10000!

TheGrunch
10-27-2012, 12:40 AM
The skins are only broken if the mappings are changed...but if the model can be altered without stretching the mapping too much then remapping is not always necessary, so your guess is as good as mine. :confused:

-)-MAILMAN-
10-27-2012, 02:31 AM
I guess all of you did not understand my question.

I am not new to the game. I have every version of the game from the original IL-2 Sturmovik, FB, FB +AEP, PF, FB + AEP + PF, 1946, UI, up through the current version of HSFX. I know how the skins work and I know that the P-51B & C were the same plane built in two locations.

I am asking which production block the P-51B-NA is and which production block the P-51C-NT is in the game? This will determine which performance envelope the plane has modeled because of such things as the change from the Packard V-1650-3 to the V-1650-7 which used different superchargers.

What has confused me is that even though you choose either the P-51B-NA or the P-51C-NT when you fly the paint skin folder for each of these planes are labeled P-51B-1-NA & P-51C-10-NT.

The P-51B-1-NA and P-51C-1-NT had the Packard V-1650-3 engine and no 85 gallon fuselage fuel tank (the same as the Allison powered P-51A). The P-51B-7-NA and P-51C-3-NT introduced the 85 gallon fuselage fuel tank. The P-51B-10-NA and the P-51C-5-NT introduced the Packard V-1650-7 engine.

zipper
10-27-2012, 04:31 AM
Just looking at IL2 compare the only real performance difference I see is level speed, the C being anywhere from 2 to 4 kph faster. I have no idea why. It would have been cool to have an early B (no fuse tank and -3) and a late C (fuse tank, -7 and dorsal strake). I don't know what the rationale to include two different models (in name only) with identical performance was.

If you get to looking at any of the game's planes TOO closely you'll find issues with virtually every single one, so I TRY not to - lol.

-)-MAILMAN-
10-27-2012, 05:44 PM
I am not trying to find any issues. I just want to know what performance envelope I am dealing with. With the refining of the heat parameters I use the performance data right out of the Pilot Manuals which differ between engines according to the Pilot Manuals.

The P-51B & C made up approximately half of the operational Mustangs flying combat missions in the ETO & MTO right up to the end of hostilities. In the CBI I have yet to see a photograph of a P-51B or C with a Malcolm Hood. This would seem to explain why they have two versions of essentially the same production block with different canopies.

Now I do wish TD would put the rear view mirrors in the cockpits of P-51B & C that were mounted on the windscreen frame above the reflector gun sight.

Luno13
10-27-2012, 07:36 PM
It's possible that they don't represent anything specific, but have hodge-podge of details from various production blocks.

I know for sure that all P-51s in the stock game have the rear fuel tank. The gauge is visible over your left shoulder.

ElAurens
10-27-2012, 10:16 PM
When the B and C were first mentioned for coming to the sim, wayyyyy back on the UBI forums there were several of us who pretty much pleaded to have the B not have the fuselage tank and the standard canopy, and the C have it with the Malcom hood.

Didn't work out that way, sadly.

An Allison engined version is really needed for the 14th Air Force in China, and perhaps an A-36 version as well for North Africa.

Bearcat
10-28-2012, 02:13 AM
I am not trying to find any issues. I just want to know what performance envelope I am dealing with. With the refining of the heat parameters I use the performance data right out of the Pilot Manuals which differ between engines according to the Pilot Manuals.

The P-51B & C made up approximately half of the operational Mustangs flying combat missions in the ETO & MTO right up to the end of hostilities. In the CBI I have yet to see a photograph of a P-51B or C with a Malcolm Hood. This would seem to explain why they have two versions of essentially the same production block with different canopies.

Now I do wish TD would put the rear view mirrors in the cockpits of P-51B & C that were mounted on the windscreen frame above the reflector gun sight.

The Malcolm hood was a field mod not an official from the factory modification. The planes were identical except for where they were manufactured. Whatever differences there are in the sim are probably attributed to the difference in aerodynamics. I don't think they went into that much detail as far as production blocks..

-)-MAILMAN-
10-30-2012, 11:19 PM
I know the gauge is behind the left shoulder. Unfortunately the game does not have this tank drain first (yes I know the COG is static and does not change as fuel is consumed).

I know the Malcolm hood was not factory production, but rather installed in the field.

I was hoping someone from TD or 1C would answer and say definitively that the P-51B-NA is .... & that the P-51C-NT is ......... This way I would know exactly what power plant is in each one of these two planes.

Regardless of which production block these represent the stock game planes should have a rear view mirror above the reflector site (so should both F6F's for that matter).

Bearcat
11-01-2012, 10:33 PM
I know the gauge is behind the left shoulder. Unfortunately the game does not have this tank drain first (yes I know the COG is static and does not change as fuel is consumed).

I know the Malcolm hood was not factory production, but rather installed in the field.

I was hoping someone from TD or 1C would answer and say definitively that the P-51B-NA is .... & that the P-51C-NT is ......... This way I would know exactly what power plant is in each one of these two planes.

Regardless of which production block these represent the stock game planes should have a rear view mirror above the reflector site (so should both F6F's for that matter).


All of the P-51s in 4.11 have the Merlin.. There is a mod version of the A with the Alison perhaps it will make it's way into the sim. I have tried to find this but I cannot remember where I read it but as far as the gas tank goes since this sim does not have switchable tanks the code was altered so that if you have less than 75% fuel it is in the wing tanks.. not the fuselage tank. If I find this info I will post it. Someone from TD please correct me if I am wrong..

-)-MAILMAN-
11-02-2012, 12:22 AM
All of the P-51s in 4.11 have the Merlin.. I have tried to find this but I cannot remember where I read it but as far as the gas tank goes since this sim does not have switchable tanks the code was altered so that if you have less than 75% fuel it is in the wing tanks.. not the fuselage tank. If I find this info I will post it. Someone from TD please correct me if I am wrong..

But which Merlin is in the the P-51B-NA and P-51C-NT in the game, the Packard licensed built Merlin V-1650-3 or the V-1650-7?

P-51B-NA 1943 (framed canopy in game)

Inglewood Plant
P-51B-1-NA: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ no 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51B-7-NA: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ introduced the 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51B-15-NA: introduced the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7/85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot


P-51C-NT 1943 (malcolm hood in game)

Dallas Plant
P-51C-1-NT: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ no 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51C-3-NT: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/introduced the 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51C-5-NT: introduced the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7/85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot

P-51D had the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7

The V-1650-3 & V-1650-7 had different superchargers. The V-1650-3 was better at High Altitude, when compared to the V-1650-7, giving it a top speed of 440 MPH at 29,000 feet. The V-1650-7 gave better performance at middle and low altitudes, when compared to the V-1650-3, giving it a top speed 437 MPH at 25,000 feet.

I know that Oleg placed a static COG in the planes and does not change as the fuel is consumed (which is too bad). As far as the COG in the P-51B, P-51C, Mustang III, P-51D-5NT and the P-51D-20NA in the game the COG is placed in the position as if the 85 gallon tank is half empty regardless of how much fuel is carried, according to Aaken. It is too bad that the gauges couldn't indicate the proper fuel tank selection even though we physically can't select which tank is placed in service. In the P-51's that had the fuselage fuel tank it was always selected first and drained 1/2 way for stability before switching to external fuel tanks.

IceFire
11-02-2012, 01:17 AM
But which Merlin is in the the P-51B-NA and P-51C-NT in the game, the Packard licensed built Merlin V-1650-3 or the V-1650-7?

P-51B-NA 1943 (framed canopy in game)

Inglewood Plant
P-51B-1-NA: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ no 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51B-7-NA: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ introduced the 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51B-15-NA: introduced the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7/85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot


P-51C-NT 1943 (malcolm hood in game)

Dallas Plant
P-51C-1-NT: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/ no 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51C-3-NT: Packard built Merlin V-1650-3/introduced the 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot
P-51C-5-NT: introduced the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7/85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot

P-51D had the Packard built Merlin V-1650-7

The V-1650-3 & V-1650-7 had different superchargers. The V-1650-3 was better at High Altitude, when compared to the V-1650-7, giving it a top speed of 440 MPH at 29,000 feet. The V-1650-7 gave better performance at middle and low altitudes, when compared to the V-1650-3, giving it a top speed 437 MPH at 25,000 feet.

I know that Oleg placed a static COG in the planes and does not change as the fuel is consumed (which is too bad). As far as the COG in the P-51B, P-51C, Mustang III, P-51D-5NT and the P-51D-20NA in the game the COG is placed in the position as if the 85 gallon tank is half empty regardless of how much fuel is carried, according to Aaken. It is too bad that the gauges couldn't indicate the proper fuel tank selection even though we physically can't select which tank is placed in service. In the P-51's that had the fuselage fuel tank it was always selected first and drained 1/2 way for stability before switching to external fuel tanks.
Going by IL-2 Compare it definitely appears as if the P-51B and C both have the V-1650-3 as they have a higher critical altitude. Interestingly, it shows a 10-15kph discrepancy between the two at all altitudes with the P-51C being slightly faster. Takeoff weight is listed as essentially identical for all 3 types so I would guess they all have the extra tank modeled. Not sure exactly how reliable that information is but that would be my guess.

So... theoretically, based on your information, the types we have are:

P-51B-7-NA
P-51C-3-NT

Interestingly the top speeds seem to be a bit on the high side. The P-51C gets 729kph at 7,700 meters which translates to 453mph at 25263 feet. The P-51B is slightly less.