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Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:29 PM
This thread will contain all updates of my ordnance mods to optimize them to be in line with DT requirements and their future inclusion in 4.13. Hopefully we will be able to introduce some new loadouts, as well.


LOD_0 polycount: NEW STANDARD

1. Smaller bombs/rockets (below 200kg) - up to 300 triangles.
2. Medium bombs/rockets (between 200 and 1000kg) - up to 400 triangles
3. Larger bombs (1000kg and larger), torpedoes, guided bombs, etc. - up to 600 triangles.


COMMENTS AND LINKS TO SOURCE MATERIAL ARE WELCOME.

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:30 PM
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Render_pub-8-1.jpg

List of Navy bombs to come except for one of the No.80s.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/JapaneseNavyBombs-DE.svg/2000px-JapaneseNavyBombs-DE.svg.png

Type 97 No.6 - Land bomb (HE) ~60kg
Type 99 No.6 - Standard bomb (AP) ~60kg
Type 99 No.25 Mod.1 - Standard bomb (HE) ~ 250kg

Please note that they are yet without fuze and the skins are WIP.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Render_pub_1-1.jpg

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:30 PM
-reserved-

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:31 PM
-reserved-

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:31 PM
General Purpose (GP)

250 lbs., 500 lbs., 1,000 lbs.

Medium Capacity (MC)

250 lbs., 500 lbs., 1,000 lbs.

Armour Piercing (AP)

2,000 lbs AP

Incendiary Bombs (IB)

250 lbs IB, 500 lbs IB

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:38 PM
-reserved-

Zorin
10-20-2012, 04:38 PM
-reserved-

Luno13
10-20-2012, 10:07 PM
Good to see, and I will be looking forward to it. Nice work so far.

JG601_Rommel
10-21-2012, 03:44 AM
Looks very good! With impatience I will wait for news!

Pershing
10-21-2012, 09:56 AM
Hi Zorin
What about flare and smoke ordnance?
For example German LC 50, soviet SAB-50-28 and so on?
This would be great addition for night missions

SAB-50-28 (1941)
http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7891.0;attach=1266 60;image

LC 50
http://bodenplatte-45.narod.ru/lc50.jpg

dFrog
10-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Can you make a proper 1000lbs bomb for brits ? So the Tempest can get rid of american, please ?

Zorin
10-21-2012, 12:58 PM
Hi Zorin
What about flare and smoke ordnance?
For example German LC 50, soviet SAB-50-28 and so on?
This would be great addition for night missions

SAB-50-28 (1941)
http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7891.0;attach=1266 60;image

LC 50
http://bodenplatte-45.narod.ru/lc50.jpg

Can you make a proper 1000lbs bomb for brits ? So the Tempest can get rid of american, please ?

Should be no problem. The flares would require a new effect by someone else though, as that is beyond my abilities.

dFrog, there will be plenty of British bombs, fear not.

IceFire
10-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Should be no problem. The flares would require a new effect by someone else though, as that is beyond my abilities.

dFrog, there will be plenty of British bombs, fear not.

Wonderful news Zorin. Keep up the great work!

magot
10-21-2012, 10:35 PM
Hi Zorin,

Until will be any bomb/torpedo done with all things (4 lods with 32bit texture 256*256 resolution) try send max file with PSD on DT mail for revision.
If will be ok, can be object released in next update. Keep low-poly standard. Use alpha-channel for save polys where will be need.

mag

Zorin
10-21-2012, 10:44 PM
Hi Zorin,

Until will be any bomb/torpedo done with all things (4 lods with 32bit texture 256*256 resolution) try send max file with PSD on DT mail for revision.
If will be ok, can be object released in next update. Keep low-poly standard.

mag

I am sticking to the guidelines I have been given.

LOD_0 polycount: OLD STANDARD

1. Smaller bombs/rockets (below 200kg) - up to 200 triangles.
2. Medium bombs/rockets (between 200 and 1000kg) - up to 300 triangles
3. Larger bombs (1000kg and larger), torpedoes, guided bombs, etc. - up to 500 triangles.
You can add 100 triangles to each figure, if it's absolutely necessary. Also, note, that this numbers are given for 2-sided material usage. Therefore, if you are using doubled polygons for 2-sided surfaces instead of 2-sided material, you can count only one side of such surface.

You may also use 512x512 textures, instead of 256x256, but similar ordnance models should use same texture. Alpha channel may be used, if needed.

Zorin
10-22-2012, 01:21 AM
Question for the community, would you like the bombs to be wearing a skin appropriate for the year and theatre set by the scenario you play?

For example some German bombs would start out being darkgrey to become greengrey, as well as being lightblue if being used in North Africa.

Tuco22
10-22-2012, 01:52 AM
If its not to time consuming and your willing to do it that would be great. :)

Luno13
10-22-2012, 03:22 AM
How would the skins be determined? Tied to the map, or increasing the list of ordinance with each skin version?

IceFire
10-22-2012, 03:32 AM
How would the skins be determined? Tied to the map, or increasing the list of ordinance with each skin version?

Presumably using the same mechanism that works for default skins on some aircraft (i.e. German aircraft now sport correct theatre band markings depending on if East, West or Med).

Aviar
10-22-2012, 04:23 AM
How would the skins be determined? Tied to the map, or increasing the list of ordinance with each skin version?

In the FMB, you can set the exact date for that particular mission/map. This will have an effect on certain environmental conditions such as position of sun/moon/stars, etc. I believe we also have certain ordnance (early/late torps) tied to mission dates.

So, this may be a partial answer to your question.

Aviar

Fighterace
10-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Stupid Question. Will the British ordinance include the Grand Slam/Tallboy bombs?

Zorin
10-22-2012, 02:41 PM
Stupid Question. Will the British ordinance include the Grand Slam/Tallboy bombs?

No, cause we don't have a plane that used them. You can find a list of all British bombs that will be made on the first page in the british ordnance post.

secretone
10-22-2012, 06:22 PM
Stupid Question. Will the British ordinance include the Grand Slam/Tallboy bombs?

Apparently the Wellington, appearing in next patch, and Mosquito could carry the blockbuster which might be worth some consideration.

On the other hand, this may not be the best idea I have ever had... I have no desire to simulate firestorms and destruction of residential areas. It is not clear to me that this weapon had any tactical applications; my apologies to all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbuster_bomb

Zorin
10-22-2012, 07:33 PM
Apparently the Wellington, appearing in next patch, and Mosquito could carry the blockbuster which might be worth some consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbuster_bomb

I have no word from the guy/s who built the Wellington whether they made a HC 4000lb or not.

magot
10-22-2012, 08:20 PM
I am sticking to the guidelines I have been given. yes that ok.

IceFire
10-22-2012, 10:30 PM
Stupid Question. Will the British ordinance include the Grand Slam/Tallboy bombs?
Interesting Wikipedia article on the Grand Slam... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_%28bomb%29

Only able to be carried by the B.Mk 1 (Special) variant of the Lancaster. The bomb would not fit on a regular Mark I-III versions of the Lancaster. Only the special variant with modifications to fit the bomb.

I imagine if we did get a Lancaster that we could potentially have the special version.

Zorin
10-22-2012, 10:36 PM
Final torpedo mesh to be found on first page. Files will be sent to TD shortly.

IceFire
10-22-2012, 10:45 PM
Looks good. Very thorough!

Zorin
10-23-2012, 01:55 AM
Looks good. Very thorough!

Thnaks Ice. There had to be some ommissions to be made, but I think they will do the job just fine.

I also added the last type Cruciform (braced) to the first page.

Willia55m
10-23-2012, 02:25 AM
Hopefully we will be able to introduce some new loadouts,
http://www.rdox.info/01.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/02.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/8.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/04.jpg

T}{OR
10-23-2012, 12:16 PM
Looking great Zorin.

Finally the IJN bombs will get updated as well.

Zorin
10-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Looking great Zorin.

Finally the IJN bombs will get updated as well.

Thanks. :)

If I can keep this pace and TD will accept my work without objection there can be no reason to not have all IJA and IJN bombs in 4.12 as well.

dFrog
10-23-2012, 02:45 PM
Zorin, you have mentioned different skins for bombs depending on time or theatre. Will your japan bombs have two skins ? Army and navy used different colors for bombs.

Zorin
10-23-2012, 03:15 PM
Zorin, you have mentioned different skins for bombs depending on time or theatre. Will your japan bombs have two skins ? Army and navy used different colors for bombs.

There will be different IJA and IJN bombs for starters. Each wearing the correct skin with appropriate base colors and color bands befitting the type of bomb.

dFrog
10-23-2012, 03:38 PM
Great ! Can't wait...

IceFire
10-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Zorin, do you have any good sources for these Japanese armaments? Reason I ask is that I'd love to see the Type 99-1 99-2 and other weapons represented in IL-2 instead of using the nearest German, American, or British equivalent but I've struggled to find any resources anywhere on the details (individual shells, etc.).

Zorin
10-23-2012, 11:46 PM
Zorin, do you have any good sources for these Japanese armaments? Reason I ask is that I'd love to see the Type 99-1 99-2 and other weapons represented in IL-2 instead of using the nearest German, American, or British equivalent but I've struggled to find any resources anywhere on the details (individual shells, etc.).

http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/tm919855japaneseexpl.ord1953.pdf

These are descriptions of all projectiles used by the Japanese Army and Navy, though it might be a bti too basic for your needs.

IceFire
10-24-2012, 12:25 AM
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/tm919855japaneseexpl.ord1953.pdf

These are descriptions of all projectiles used by the Japanese Army and Navy, though it might be a bti too basic for your needs.

I'm not sure... I may be in over my head at this point but I'll send it in and see what can be made of it. It's much more detailed than anything else I've been able to find!

Zorin
10-24-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm not sure... I may be in over my head at this point but I'll send it in and see what can be made of it. It's much more detailed than anything else I've been able to find!

Let's hope it will prove helpful.

First page updated with a list of Navy bombs and the first 60kg bomb rendered.

Juri_JS
10-24-2012, 04:07 PM
Would it be possible to add German and Japanese air-to-air bombs to the game, that were used against Allied bomber formations or is this beyond the scope of the project?
I guess doing the models and textures shouldn't be a problem, but it would also require new effects and changes to the AI.

Zorin
10-24-2012, 04:28 PM
Would it be possible to add German and Japanese air-to-air bombs to the game, that were used against Allied bomber formations or is this beyond the scope of the project?
I guess doing the models and textures shouldn't be a problem, but it would also require new effects and changes to the AI.

That is entirely up to TD and not my responsibility to decide.

Lagarto
10-24-2012, 05:44 PM
Zorin, your torps look beautiful and the regular updating is most welcome. I wish the map makers working with DT did the same (I mean a separate thread with updates, pics and info).

1984
10-25-2012, 12:38 AM
again, really good news here...

especially, possibility of smoke bombs (it's can be new type of gameplay) and new flares...


and question (sorry, if) - only bombs? what about some rockets, and, maybe, new racks for rockets and bombs?

Zorin
10-25-2012, 12:51 AM
again, really good news here...

especially, possibility of smoke bombs (it's can be new type of gameplay) and new flares...


and question (sorry, if) - only bombs? what about some rockets, and, maybe, new racks for rockets and bombs?

Rockets will be included. Racks are again up to TD. It depends on whether they want improved meshes for them or not.

EDIT: First page updated with second 60kg bomb.

Zorin
10-25-2012, 01:16 PM
Just so you know, I have to get acknowledgement of receipt and/or approval for the torpedos yet.

_1SMV_Gitano
10-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Here is some feedback for you from one of DT modellers

I made a quick rework of Zorin's torpedo (only one variant). You may send it back to Zorin for study, if you think, it would be useful.

Errors and problems, found in his model:

1. Model orientation in Max was wrong. The model should be placed in max so it's nose points downwards on the Max Top view. The CG of the object should be placed at 0,0,0 coordinate.
2. Texture size was too large (1024x1024) while the texture itself was not quite detailed. No point in using large texture, if one doesn't plan to paint anything on it.
3. Texture mapping wasn't quite good and savvy. Too many stitches in UW makes painting details on texture difficult.
4. Thin parts, like fins, should be made, using 2-sided material, their shape can be easily "cut" from a simple rectangle, using alpha channel.
5. No LODs found in the file.
6. No collision object found in the file. Ordnance doesn't need mesh collision, it is enough to use collision sphere which is just default Max primitive, 32 sides sphere, whose diameter is slightly larger, then ordnance diameter without fins. The CSphere object should be placed at the 0,0,0 coordinate.
7. TGA file should be used as texture.

I did a brief remodel of one of the torpedo variants, fixing all the above listed problems. The texture was reduced to 512x512 pixels, but still has a huge portion of unused space. I take it, that Zorin planned to use it for other Japanese ordnance models. I added some small details on the image, to make it look more realistic. There is also space reserved for another torp (fin, actually) variants, should Zorin would want to remodel his torpedoes according to the included sample. I also think, there is no need in such large number of different variants. 2, maximum 3 would suffice.

Here's a comparison image:

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/1850/torpx.jpg

As you can see, the tri-count of the model was reduced by half and the texture made smaller 4 times without any loss to visual quality.

We will send you the reworked model asap...

Zorin
10-25-2012, 02:39 PM
1. Model orientation in Max was wrong. The model should be placed in max so it's nose points downwards on the Max Top view. The CG of the object should be placed at 0,0,0 coordinate.

How am I supposed to know that?


2. Texture size was too large (1024x1024) while the texture itself was not quite detailed. No point in using large texture, if one doesn't plan to paint anything on it.

I always paint and setup textures in a higher resolution. It was just the base setup and had no detailing yet. Of course it would be resized for the finished product...


3. Texture mapping wasn't quite good and savvy. Too many stitches in UW makes painting details on texture difficult.

I UVW to reduce possible distortion even if that requires a little more time for proper texture painting. Besides, anything that would have had seams you removed anyway...


4. Thin parts, like fins, should be made, using 2-sided material, their shape can be easily "cut" from a simple rectangle, using alpha channel.

Why should I do it if I can keep higher detail within the tri-level limit I have been given? I also was told that I would not have to build for 2-sided material, but could use flipped faces and only count one side per part. Could you guys please make your mind up....

Alpha channels are just to be avoided as far as I am concerned as they only allow for very crude results on this resolution levels.


5. No LODs found in the file.

Surprise, see point one. If I don't get proper info on that, how can I include it? Besides this was clearly labelled as a LOD0 preview...


6. No collision object found in the file. Ordnance doesn't need mesh collision, it is enough to use collision sphere which is just default Max primitive, 32 sides sphere, whose diameter is slightly larger, then ordnance diameter without fins. The CSphere object should be placed at the 0,0,0 coordinate.

See point 1 and 5.


7. TGA file should be used as texture.

Noted.


I did a brief remodel of one of the torpedo variants ... without any loss to visual quality

Cute euphemism and the detonator is not placed where you did "correct" my detonator to. Believe it or not, I actually know what I am doing. Also, the variants are meant to allow every type of torpedo plane to use the proper torpedo tail for any given time frame. If you don't want the four, which could easily be 8 btw, then just leave out the tail assemblies altogether, cause anything else would be a halfarsed job.

But I am glad that the community now has a comparison. I will gladly dumb down the meshes, anyway. Anything is better than the standard crap that is in game at the moment.

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
10-25-2012, 02:58 PM
Hm... just came to my mind... do you need example models? Or do you have already?

Pls don't take poly limits as something to exhaust at any costs - 500 is a number for comparible complex objects. Every saved polygon is a good polygon.

Sorry if we look unsatisfied with the status (LoDs etc.) ... we took it, that the model was finished - at least the one, who wrote the report.

Zorin
10-25-2012, 03:18 PM
Hm... just came to my mind... do you need example models? Or do you have already?

Pls don't take poly limits as something to exhaust at any costs - 500 is a number for comparible complex objects. Every saved polygon is a good polygon.

Sorry if we look unsatisfied with the status (LoDs etc.) ... we took it, that the model was finished - at least the one, who wrote the report.

Examples sure wouldn't hurt, cause those would give me the file structure you want and an insight on how you want to see things done cause it is apparent that that is the only way you accept them.

Well, I usually take limits as something to guarantee the highest level of detail within, so that a plywood plate actually looks like one and not resembles a sheet of paper, but that is clearly not your approach.

Every tail assembly was modelled milimeter accurate and now are just one pixel thick and invisible from a head-on/tail-on view.

But that is fine with me, as long as people are aware that that is the way you want things and not the level I could produce.

If the eMail reads "...file for the Type 91 torpedos LOD0", why would anyone consider it to be anything more?

MicroWave
10-25-2012, 03:22 PM
Just one more info on item 7). Save TGA with RLE compression turned OFF. The game can't handle RLE compression.

Zorin
10-25-2012, 03:27 PM
Just one more info on item 7). Save TGA with RLE compression turned OFF. The game can't handle RLE compression.

Noted.

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
10-25-2012, 04:08 PM
We will see, what we can do, regarding the samples.


Well, I usually take limits as something to guarantee the highest level of detail within, so that a plywood plate actually looks like one and not resembles a sheet of paper, but that is clearly not your approach.

Every tail assembly was modelled milimeter accurate and now are just one pixel thick and invisible from a head-on/tail-on view.


What you forget is, that:
1. it mostly won't be noticed by most of the players due to moving angles, limited zoom, cockpit always on, uninterest, unknowlede etc. or whatever
2. its look has to fit with the rest, so it doesn't break the 'visual composition' of the game

Both issues suggest the use of compromises between details and saving polys/textures, even if the limits are not reached. Thats part of game development.
If the world was perfect, there would exist quite a few more different limits for different objects or it should be defined exclusively for every new project.
But its not that way, because its easier as it is ... BUT on the other side it demands some kind of good sense for what is reasonable and what is exaggerated.


But that is fine with me, as long as people are aware that that is the way you want things and not the level I could produce.


Ha, I doubt, anyone will blame on you. ;)


If the eMail reads "...file for the Type 91 torpedos LOD0", why would anyone consider it to be anything more?

Not everyone of the team reads the inbox. The model was handed over without the note. That issue is clear now.

SaQSoN
10-25-2012, 04:45 PM
How am I supposed to know that?

Well, generally, you don't. Now you do. On a side note, however, it is rather logical to have a front projection of your model in the front view window of the Max. But, don't worry, it's a typical error, I did that too, when I was only starting. ;)

I always paint and setup textures in a higher resolution. It was just the base setup and had no detailing yet. Of course it would be resized for the finished product...

For an objects with relatively small pixel rate (a number of texture pixels per polygon) I wouldn't recommend such approach. Because it is quite possible that after resizing the texture, a details painted on it, would shift way too much relatively to the existing UWs. And some pieces previously carefully aligned on UW seams or near 3D parts would become misaligned.
Therefore, it is strongly recommended to painted a texture exactly into the size, which would be used on the final product.

I UVW to reduce possible distortion even if that requires a little more time for proper texture painting.

It is a very good approach for a large objects and large textures. In current situation, however, with relatively small pixel rate it is better to avoid making too many seams because with only few pixels per polygon it sometimes would be impossible to align texture on the seams properly.

Besides, anything that would have had seams you removed anyway...

The main hull wasn't removed, or so it seems and it was the place with the most unpleasant number of seams in most unpleasant place (were fin attachments were supposed to be painted.

Why should I do it if I can keep higher detail within the tri-level limit I have been given?

For a starters, the very thick fins, you modeled, wouldn't be accurate to the real thing. The metal fins on the torpedo had "hydrofoil" shape, so their outer edges were almost knife-sharp. The thickest part of the fin would be at the middle of it's root and it would be around 10mm or so, judging from the photos. The only image of the torpedo with that thick fins is from USS Intrepid museum, where an inaccurate wooden replica is displayed.

Another reason is that on all other IL-2 models (planes, vehicles, ships) parts, which are thinner, then 30mm or so, are considered as 0-thin. We have to keep general visual detail of all models on approximately the same level.

And finally, making those parts 0-thin allows use of alpha channel, which allows to further reduce polygon count.

I also was told that I would not have to build for 2-sided material, but could use flipped faces and only count one side per part. Could you guys please make your mind up....

Don't see any contradiction here. You can use both approaches, even on the same model, if you please. But generally, it's easier to use 2-sided material.

Alpha channels are just to be avoided as far as I am concerned as they only allow for very crude results on this resolution levels.

Do they really? Looking on the model which was sent back to you, I can not say, they do. :cool:

Surprise, see point one. If I don't get proper info on that, how can I include it? Besides this was clearly labelled as a LOD0 preview...

LODs were mentioned along with basic triangle and texture requirements somewhere on this forum.

Also, the variants are meant to allow every type of torpedo plane to use the proper torpedo tail for any given time frame. If you don't want the four, which could easily be 8 btw, then just leave out the tail assemblies altogether, cause anything else would be a halfarsed job.

Sometimes, you got to get into account, that you work with other people, not just alone. In this particular case, making a gazilion variants of basically the same weapon, which differs from others only extrnally generates a lot more work for a programmers who will implement this ordnance into the game. Throwing at them more work at a time, when they are already overwhelmed with other work isn't a good example of team work.

That's approximately the same story, as with polygon limit, as Caspar explained it to you.

Zorin
10-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Well, generally, you don't. Now you do. On a side note, however, it is rather logical to have a front projection of your model in the front view window of the Max. But, don't worry, it's a typical error, I did that too, when I was only starting. ;)

Noted.


For an objects with relatively small pixel rate (a number of texture pixels per polygon) I wouldn't recommend such approach. Because it is quite possible that after resizing the texture, a details painted on it, would shift way too much relatively to the existing UWs. And some pieces previously carefully aligned on UW seams or near 3D parts would become misaligned.
Therefore, it is strongly recommended to painted a texture exactly into the size, which would be used on the final product.

I am obviously not used to low poly modelling. I shall adapt.


It is a very good approach for a large objects and large textures. In current situation, however, with relatively small pixel rate it is better to avoid making too many seams because with only few pixels per polygon it sometimes would be impossible to align texture on the seams properly.

The main hull wasn't removed, or so it seems and it was the place with the most unpleasant number of seams in most unpleasant place (were fin attachments were supposed to be painted.

Noted and I am eager to see how you guys mapped it now.


For a starters, the very thick fins, you modeled, wouldn't be accurate to the real thing. The metal fins on the torpedo had "hydrofoil" shape, so their outer edges were almost knife-sharp. The thickest part of the fin would be at the middle of it's root and it would be around 10mm or so, judging from the photos. The only image of the torpedo with that thick fins is from USS Intrepid museum, where an inaccurate wooden replica is displayed.

I mostly used tech drawings and photographs of the salvaged original torpedo, though my latest version of the tail planes had little to no resemblance to the original as I had to cut down polys left, right and center.

Another reason is that on all other IL-2 models (planes, vehicles, ships) parts, which are thinner, then 30mm or so, are considered as 0-thin. We have to keep general visual detail of all models on approximately the same level.

Good to know, then nothing will need to be made accurate in the thickness regard. Should save me some time calculating measurements ;)

And finally, making those parts 0-thin allows use of alpha channel, which allows to further reduce polygon count.

Don't see any contradiction here. You can use both approaches, even on the same model, if you please. But generally, it's easier to use 2-sided material.

Do they really? Looking on the model which was sent back to you, I can not say, they do. :cool:

Alpha channels always feel like a short cut to me and that is why I have avoided them so far, perhaps you guys can teach me how small resolution textures acan produce accurate alpha results.


LODs were mentioned along with basic triangle and texture requirements somewhere on this forum.

Can't recall ever having seen any specifics about them in all my years around here.

Sometimes, you got to get into account, that you work with other people, not just alone. In this particular case, making a gazilion variants of basically the same weapon, which differs from others only extrnally generates a lot more work for a programmers who will implement this ordnance into the game. Throwing at them more work at a time, when they are already overwhelmed with other work isn't a good example of team work.

That's approximately the same story, as with polygon limit, as Caspar explained it to you.

See, how are we outsiders supposed to know that? Basic logic would dictate that a visually different model would only require a simple copy and paste effort in the coding department as nothing has to be changed except for the name and path info and that is hardly a limiting factor.

This leads us straight to an important question:

Is there a point to making new types of bombs (HE and AP) for the Japanese (and othernations) or will the bombs stay as simple as they are now and therefor it will make no difference what kind they are?

SaQSoN
10-27-2012, 07:59 AM
nothing will need to be made accurate in the thickness regard. Should save me some time calculating measurements ;)

Low-polygon modeling for games always requires to simplify RL objects for two reasons: save polygons on large objects and make smaller and simpler objects (where one could care less about polygon number) at equal detail level, so they would fit into general visual representation of the virtual world one is building.

Because, if you have too detailed object in relatively low detailed world, it would make look the whole world unrealistic, the same as if you have low detailed object in the high detailed world, it would make this object unrealistic and out of place.

Alpha channels always feel like a short cut to me and that is why I have avoided them so far, perhaps you guys can teach me how small resolution textures acan produce accurate alpha results.

IL-2 game models use alpha channels everywhere, on every plane and cockpit model there are plenty of it. Many ground objects, all ships, etc. use a lots of alpha-channel textures. Many polygon-saving techniques, used in the game models, are based on alpha-channel usage. So far, that doesn't seem a problem.

See, how are we outsiders supposed to know that? Basic logic would dictate that a visually different model would only require a simple copy and paste effort in the coding department as nothing has to be changed except for the name and path info and that is hardly a limiting factor.

In case of multiple variants of the same thing, a programer would have to program appearance of respective model according to correct service time, which would require him to check all those dates, check what model should appear when, etc. Not a big deal, when he has only this stuff to do, but another fraction of an ass-pain, if he has a lot more stuff to do as well, which should have been done yesterday and so on. So, whenever you can ease his job - why not?

This leads us straight to an important question:

Is there a point to making new types of bombs (HE and AP) for the Japanese (and othernations) or will the bombs stay as simple as they are now and therefor it will make no difference what kind they are?

I didn't say, there is no need to replace bad, or innacurate models, but I don't see much use in making a multiple variants of the same thing, which differ only visually, with no functional difference. So, in general, it is enough to have like maximum 3 visual variants of the same ordnance, as it does not affect the gameplay much. The smaller and the more "secondary" an object is - the fewer variants and less visual accuracy can it have. It's just a matter of saving labor resources.

IceFire
10-27-2012, 02:22 PM
Seems to me that HE and AP variants of Japanese bombs would be welcome additions. Being able to select the type of effect one wants on the target depending on the target would be extremely useful just as it is with German ordinance.

Zorin
10-27-2012, 02:28 PM
In case of multiple variants of the same thing, a programer would have to program appearance of respective model according to correct service time, which would require him to check all those dates, check what model should appear when, etc. Not a big deal, when he has only this stuff to do, but another fraction of an ass-pain, if he has a lot more stuff to do as well, which should have been done yesterday and so on. So, whenever you can ease his job - why not?

He would get all those dates and types from me, so no extra work for him.

I didn't say, there is no need to replace bad, or innacurate models, but I don't see much use in making a multiple variants of the same thing, which differ only visually, with no functional difference. So, in general, it is enough to have like maximum 3 visual variants of the same ordnance, as it does not affect the gameplay much. The smaller and the more "secondary" an object is - the fewer variants and less visual accuracy can it have. It's just a matter of saving labor resources.

Well, if you want to see torpedos sticking half their tail assembly into the hull of the plane because it is the wrong assebmly for said plane, so be it.

You also did not nswer the question I actually asked. Is there the will to introduce new bomb types or do you mearly want to see all meshes replaced?

Also, I yet have to receive the rebuild torpedo or any other example file...


Oh and here is the 60kg bomb with 2 sided material and alpha channel setup. 244 tris. The absolute minimum in quality as far as I am concerned.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Render_pub_2resized.jpg

SaQSoN
10-27-2012, 02:35 PM
Is there the will to introduce new bomb types

Yes.

Luno13
10-27-2012, 08:01 PM
Oh and here is the 60kg bomb with 2 sided material and alpha channel setup. 226 tris. The absolute minimum in quality as far as I am concerned.

It still looks very good Zorin, don't worry. It will look great under the wings of the Val. The torps are still a huge improvement over the old mesh, even with two-sided parts.

I can see you're very detail-oriented, which is a good quality to have, but don't allow the pursuit of perfection to frazzle your nerves. If you made every bomb to the initial level of quality you've presented, you would absolutely lose it, considering how many types there are.

Those high-detail models would fit in nicely into the CloD/BoM engine when the Pacific theatre is covered, so not all is lost.

Cheers.

JV44Priller
10-28-2012, 06:07 AM
Not everyone of the team reads the inbox. The model was handed over without the note. That issue is clear now.

Im still waiting on a response from an email I send some time ago.

Zorin
10-28-2012, 02:21 PM
It still looks very good Zorin, don't worry. It will look great under the wings of the Val. The torps are still a huge improvement over the old mesh, even with two-sided parts.

I can see you're very detail-oriented, which is a good quality to have, but don't allow the pursuit of perfection to frazzle your nerves. If you made every bomb to the initial level of quality you've presented, you would absolutely lose it, considering how many types there are.

Those high-detail models would fit in nicely into the CloD/BoM engine when the Pacific theatre is covered, so not all is lost.

Cheers.

Thank you for your encouraging words :)

Inbox still empty... Certainly not me delaying the progress here.

ElAurens
10-28-2012, 03:55 PM
DT are not a monolithic organization. It's just a group of enthusiasts like yourself Zorin, that do this in their free time.

They have family, jobs, and real life issues just like everyone else does, and those take first priority.

Keep checking your inbox.

In my small interactions with them it is my experience that they will get back to you in time.


Cheers.

Luno13
10-28-2012, 03:56 PM
DT are probably having more than one person look over it. In my experience, the guys at DT may not reply the next day, but they always reply, and with a thorough response. :grin:

ElAurens
10-28-2012, 03:57 PM
Indeed.

Zorin
10-28-2012, 06:20 PM
I think the process could be streamlined a lot if a certain amount of time would be dedicated to "SDK kits" and pdf guides.

Those could be given to interested parties and would limit the interaction with TD members to a minimum, not taking away any of their precious time to answer cetain questions over and over again.

HundertneunGustav
10-29-2012, 09:23 PM
DT Modelers guide and philosophy v.2012.pdf

:)

Sita
10-30-2012, 07:17 AM
my attempt to do it ...

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6620/107711741.1/0_88065_55c3d604_XXXL

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6620/107711741.1/0_88064_a5ed978_XXXL

not finished and not perfect ....
if interesting, i'll say polycount little bit later

Pershing
10-30-2012, 07:29 AM
my attempt to do it ...
not finished and not perfect ....
if interesting, i'll say polycount little bit later

SAB? Soviet flare bomb?

Sita
10-30-2012, 07:49 AM
yep

Zorin
10-30-2012, 04:32 PM
yep

I appreciate your work on Soviet loadouts as they are quite low on my priority list due to limited resources I could gather on them.


Though I have two questions.

1. Was it ten sided in real life?

2. Why do you use a lower tri model for the shadow mesh? That is like using no shadow mesh at all, IMO, total immersion killer.

Luno13
10-30-2012, 05:02 PM
Shadow meshes are always lower quality.

Flares are small, so a 10-sided shape will still look good, especially with smoothing applied.

Sita
10-30-2012, 07:28 PM
I appreciate your work on Soviet loadouts as they are quite low on my priority list due to limited resources I could gather on them.


Though I have two questions.

1. Was it ten sided in real life?

2. Why do you use a lower tri model for the shadow mesh? That is like using no shadow mesh at all, IMO, total immersion killer.

certainly not 10 sided in real life ... but is enough for il2 bomb ... that model with all details some over 280 poly already ... close to limit ...


shadow for lod0 is lod01 but painted in black ...
shadow for lod01 is lod02 painted in black to ...
you cannot see shadow from falling bombs closely ... when it falls down .. its goes too fast ... only in slowMo you can watch more detailed and its really immersion killer

Zorin
10-30-2012, 09:22 PM
certainly not 10 sided in real life ... but is enough for il2 bomb ... that model with all details some over 280 poly already ... close to limit ...


shadow for lod0 is lod01 but painted in black ...
shadow for lod01 is lod02 painted in black to ...
you cannot see shadow from falling bombs closely ... when it falls down .. its goes too fast ... only in slowMo you can watch more detailed and its really immersion killer

I certainly did not expect it to have that many tris with just ten sides.

With regards to the shadows, I obviously meant the shadows that can be seen while the bombs are attached and the plane is on the ground.

Sita
10-30-2012, 09:35 PM
tail parh have many detail ...
double sided stabilizer ... and other small things

Zorin
10-30-2012, 09:37 PM
tail parh have many detail ...
double sided stabilizer ... and other small things

Ah, I see. Thanks for the extra info :)

Sita
10-31-2012, 05:23 AM
you are welcome)

SaQSoN
10-31-2012, 06:13 AM
Originally bombs and other ordnance didn't use shadow models at all. They were introduced for ordnance by DT. For a small bombs shadows are definitely not necessary, as they hardly will be ever noticed by player.

Shadow model usually is built from LOD+1 or LOD+2 model. All cavities on the shadow model should be covered with polygons, all internal parts removed.
Shadow model doesn't require any texture, therefore, alpha channel can not be used on shadow models. The material name for it should start with word "shadow". For example, you may have 2 materials: "shadow1" for 1-sided shadow parts and "shadow2" for 2-sided parts. Obviously, the 2-sided shadow should be used only on 0-thickness parts. On ground object shadow models all polygons, which are parallel to the ground and facing towards it, should be removed (as they won't be ever visible).
Building models do not require shadow models. They are generated automatically from building LODs by export tools.

RPS69
11-01-2012, 04:45 AM
Would it be possible to add German and Japanese air-to-air bombs to the game, that were used against Allied bomber formations or is this beyond the scope of the project?
I guess doing the models and textures shouldn't be a problem, but it would also require new effects and changes to the AI.

Air to air bombs used by the germans were actually standard AB250 used by some enthusiast pilots. It was not an especific weapon.

Juri_JS
11-01-2012, 06:01 AM
Air to air bombs used by the germans were actually standard AB250 used by some enthusiast pilots. It was not an especific weapon.

That's correct. The Japanese had special air to air bombs, but the Germans used standard bombs with a timed fuze, that were dropped from around 1000 m above a bomber formation. So no new 3D model would be necessary for the German bombs, only a change to the AI by Team Daidalos and maybe some new explosion effects.

Luno13
11-01-2012, 06:28 AM
Adding a 37mm explosion effect instead would be reasonable, I think. That way, no new effects would have be created.