"Realistic Navigation" - yellow light

[Freelansir]

Recently I wanted to learn more about "realistic navigation" and so I flew the B-25 blind landing practice provided in Single Missions.

Everything went smooth but I got a yellow light enroute to the target field. It looks like some kind of marker beacon. However it only blinked on briefly once. I understand the concept of Outer/Middle/Inner beacon markers.

http://imageshack.us/a/img528/1038/marker800.jpg

I searched the internet but all I could find is this gauge, but without a light associated with it.

http://imageshack.us/a/img513/7676/i101indicator.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/MRN-1

So my question is, what in the world is the yellow light for ?

Thanks

[Buster_Dee]

I'm not in the know, but the marker beacons are part of the process. If I recall:

1st time, light says start the standard decent now.

2nd time, light says you're about to cross touchdown, so chop your power.

If nothing to do with those, I'll be no help. Sorry.

[Pfeil]

It's likely the beacons from Lorenz are included with the AN/MRN-1 to allow non-US aircraft to use the hayrake transmitter.

The relevant information is given in the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam):

Two small radio beacons were also used with Lorenz, one 300 m off the end of runway, the HEZ, and another 3 km away, the VEZ, also broadcast on 38 MHz and modulated at 1700 and 700 Hz, respectively. These signals were broadcast directly upward, and would be heard briefly as the aircraft flew over them. To approach the runway, the aircraft would fly to a published altitude and then use the main directional signals to line up with the runway and started flying toward it. When they flew over the VEZ they would start descending on a standard glide slope, continuing to land or abort at the HEZ depending on whether or not they could see the runway.

In order to ease the workload, Lorenz later introduced a cockpit indicator that could listen to the signals and display the direction to the runway centerline as an arrow telling the pilot which direction to turn. The indicator also included neon lamp to indicate when the aircraft crossed over the marker beacons.

[Freelansir]

It's likely the beacons from Lorenz are included with the AN/MRN-1 to allow non-US aircraft to use the hayrake transmitter.

The relevant information is given in the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam):

Thank you for your reply but the Lorenz system was used by the Luftwaffe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam

I'm talking about the USAAF B-25 which is using the AAF Instrument Approach System: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/MRN-1

http://imageshack.us/a/img100/5002/b25wardsfied.jpg

But my question still remains the same: what is that yellow light for.

I only ask that the designers here of "realistic navigation" for what purpose did they include that light.

As for ILS marker beacons see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_beacon

[JV44Priller]

I tried to build a mission that used that system once and now I see where I messed up.

[K_Freddie]

ILS - instrument landing system

As you probably know.. The lights, usually 3, each a different colour, are activated by vertical radio beams placed in the landing path at certain intervals. I don't think the distances were standardised at that time, but they just gave the pilot an indication of how far he was from the runway. As the beams are vertical you pass through them very quickly causing the lights to flash briefly. If you keep the needles in the middle (on the dot) you should 'hit' the runway a couple of meters in.

As you hit the last beacon, you should seriously consider flaring and hold it there until your wheels hit something :)

[Freelansir]

Gents,

We are getting off-topic here from the question.

This thread is not about ILS systems nor tutorials on landing as I am familiar with them in FS2004.

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/8176/ilslanding.jpg

It is about a gauge that is in the B-25 in IL2 and what the yellow lamp means.

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/3888/gaugelight.jpg

I have searched the internet for pictures of B-25 cockpits and have found none that show this gauge nor this lamp.

Ergo, my question.

I appreciate your interest though.

[jameson]

News

Nature 142, 1111-1111 (24 December 1938) | doi:10.1038/1421111c0

Blind Landing System for Royal Air Force Equipment

Top of page
Abstract

THE Air Ministry has announced its intention to equip all R.A.F. bombers and reconnaissance aircraft with the Lorenz blind approach system. If experiments during this winter prove this to be successful, the fighter class of aircraft will then also be so equipped. This follows the announcement that forty R.A.F. aerodromes would have the radio transmitting apparatus for this system installed, as mentioned in NATURE of November 26. The apparatus to be carried in each machine weighs 50 lb. and costs about £200. Its manipulation demands a certain technique, and pilots need, considerable practice before being able to use it in addition to the other movements and observations that are incidental to the operation of landing a modern high-speed aeroplane. A special ‘Link’ trainer is used for practice in the use of the Lorenz system, upon which approaches and landings can be simulated without leaving the ground. These are to be provided at R.A.F. flying schools, in addition to which each service station will carry one. The training of the personnel will be undertaken by special instructors, who will have already attended courses at the Central Flying School at Upavon, Wilts.

[Pfeil]

What I'm trying to explain is that the function of that light is the same as it is for the Lorenz system, I.E. it illuminates while you're passing over a beacon and then extinguishes.

I'm not claiming the AN/MRN-1 functioned like this in real life, merely that it is possible Team Daidalos implemented it in this manner.

[K_Freddie]

I think that everyone is on topic.. you failed to identify the possibility that the ILS systems then, might have only had one indicator. This was when it seemed to be working the same way as today's 3 beacon indicators ;)

[jameson]

This B25 has two instruments both with indicator lights, watch full screen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl0outc9mQI&feature=related

[Freelansir]

Gents,

We are getting off-topic here from the question.

This thread is not about ILS systems nor tutorials on landing as I am familiar with them in FS2004.

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/8176/ilslanding.jpg

It is about a gauge that is in the B-25 in IL2 and what the yellow lamp means.

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/3888/gaugelight.jpg

I have searched the internet for pictures of B-25 cockpits and have found none that show this gauge nor this lamp.

Ergo, my question.

I appreciate your interest though.

jameson, I thank your effort in finding that video. You must've scanned many YouTubes. However, I already know those gauges are called I-101 indicators and I cannot see any lamp lit or unlit.

http://imageshack.us/a/img203/6562/b25clear.jpg


Pfiel, I was hoping to hear from the TD members who developed this wonderful feature and give them their due credit and thanks.

I will continue to pursue the mystery of the "yellow lamp" in the B-25J introduced in version 4.10.

Thanks to all who read my thread.

Take care,

Freelansir

[jameson]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/op999

[jameson]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/op999.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/op999)
I've marked them for you. They are clearly visible in the video full screen and highest resolution.

[jameson]

Freelansir,
The essential point of the indicator light is given in the system's name "The Lorenz BLIND landing system". I.e. unlike your fs2004 picture the system was used when you cannot see anything out of the cockpit, it's dark or you are in cloud with a low base. Having reached your airfield via the homing beacon, when the lamp first lights you begin the glidepath descent to the runway. The second time it lights. and here's the good bit, if you cannot see the end of the runway it's time to get the wheels and flaps up and get the hell outa Dodge to go round and have another go!

I suggest that you download and read the release notes from the 4.10 patch available here:
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3996
which is when these features were added to IL2. You will find the relevant info under New Navigational Objects. There are also some pdf's in the game's folder together with the game manual which contain lots of useful info.

See http://www.usaaf.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=197 for explanation of the systems used by USAF in England during WW2. From there this image, is this in the game? click on images to enlarge.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/2p49a.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/2p49a)

Anyone whose wishes to learn more can download the Army Airforces' WW2 Air Navigation Manual from here:
http://aafcollection.info/items/detail.php?key=198&pkg=ls!title!!198!1!title!up!20

You can download it in parts. The one most relevant here is:

Section 4: Supplementing Dead-Reckoning by Radio
The Radio Line of Position: The instruments and their use; Obtaining the uncorrected radio bearing; Converting uncorrected radio bearing to radio line of position; The radio fix and log; Other radio and communication equipment in the aircraft.

Additional Radio Aids: Radio range stations; Marker beacons.

and this page the most,
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/n6ca1.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/n6ca1)

At about at the war's end the first completely automatic landing took place in England and is the forerunner of the system in use today. Some of you may not know but nearly all civil flights are landed today by the aircraft's onboard computer which may or may not make you sleep easier :-)

[rollnloop]

Some of you may not know but nearly all civil flights are landed today by the aircraft's onboard computer which may or may not make you sleep easier

Can be landed under certain conditions not too often met true, are landed wrong. 13 years in airline, only a couple autolands (dozens in the sim though).

Thanks for links, some interesting read there :)

[Freelansir]

At the risk of sounding irritated like a father talking to a wandering-mind child, this thread is about the simulation IL-2 1946 version with the feature "Realistic Navigation". Obviously I am using the feature. To suggest I get the patch insults my intelligence.

Being 71 years old my patience does have limits.

It is not about the real world. I repeat, it is not about the real world.

It is mentioned that my FS2004 flight is in the daytime. Of course it is ! As a CFI would you have a student take his first ILS lesson in bad weather or night time ?

Instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) is an aviation flight category that describes weather conditions that require pilots to fly primarily by reference to instruments, and therefore under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), rather than by outside visual references under Visual Flight Rules (VFR). Typically, this means flying in cloud or bad weather. Pilots sometimes train to fly in these conditions with the aid of products like Foggles, specialized glasses that restrict outside vision, forcing the student to rely on instrument indications only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_meteorological_conditions

So within the limits of IL-2 "Realistic Navigation" we have:

For the Luftwaffe:

http://imageshack.us/a/img543/817/blindlanding110.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img99/1656/blindlanding110fmb.jpg

For the USAAF:

http://imageshack.us/a/img100/5002/b25wardsfied.jpg

I have confined myself to these limits.

I ask you to please do the same.

[K_Freddie]

Everything went smooth but I got a yellow light enroute to the target field. It looks like some kind of marker beacon. However it only blinked on briefly once. I understand the concept of Outer/Middle/Inner beacon markers.

So my question is, what in the world is the yellow light for ?

So without trying to insult your intelligence, or experience - you must admit you're sending us mixed messages or questions.

Everybody is trying to 'state/explain the obvious' or explain in simplistic terms, as the only indication of your time on IL2 (and maybe flying) is your post count (= 8, at the time of this post ). Being more precise and/or providing more self information, and or game experience, might lessen the 'insulting advice'.
;)

[Freelansir]

So without trying to insult your intelligence, or experience - you must admit you're sending us mixed messages or questions.

Everybody is trying to 'state/explain the obvious' or explain in simplistic terms, as the only indication of your time on IL2 (and maybe flying) is your post count (= 8, at the time of this post ). Being more precise and/or providing more self information, and or game experience, might lessen the 'insulting advice'.
;)

My post count is low because I read and listen to others. You should not take it as a measurement of experience.

However, the hours in flight simulators spans years of:

FS98
Combat Flight Simulator
Combat Flight Simulator 2
FS2000
FS2002
FS2004
FSX
IL-2 46 (I had IL-2 Sturmovik from 2001 but it didn't work on my machine)
Rise of Flight

From the 410 readme for those who haven't read it:

The B-25 has ILS instrument which is much like the German counterpart, except that it's horizontal needle shows whether plane is above or below correct glide path. This instrument doesn't work with Lorenz beacon. It needs the Army Air Force Instrument Approach System beacon to work correctly.

That's all I'm going to contribute to this thread.

Take care

[K_Freddie]

Well, my experience of flight started in 1980 (actually 1972 with my old man) and with flight sims in 1985.. and I will be contributing a lot more if necessary, to try help others ;)
Have you forgotten Janes...

[jameson]

Freelansir, you asked what the indicator lamp was for and at least three posters told you. The Lorenz system was the same in essence for both the Luftwaffe and the RAF and the USAF early in the war. In 1943 this was superceded by the ingame American system which was just a more refined version of Lorenz. Ingame the later system does not work with Lorenz beacons (as clearly stated in the 4.10 release notes), although the princples are similar. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to grasp that. If you are unable to get it to work ingame, that's a different question to "what's the lamp for?", don't you think? And if that's not your problem what is?

[Freelansir]

Freelansir, you asked what the indicator lamp was for and at least three posters told you. The Lorenz system was the same in essence for both the Luftwaffe and the RAF and the USAF early in the war. In 1943 this was superceded by the ingame American system which was just a more refined version of Lorenz. Ingame the later system does not work with Lorenz beacons (as clearly stated in the 4.10 release notes), although the princples are similar. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to grasp that. If you are unable to get it to work ingame, that's a different question to "what's the lamp for?", don't you think? And if that's not your problem what is?

*sigh*

There you go again trying to give history lessons.

I read about history too.

You are obsessed with the RAF using the Lorenz system; not what's presented in 410.

The B-25 has ILS instrument which is much like the German counterpart, except that it's horizontal needle shows whether plane is above or below correct glide path. This instrument doesn't work with Lorenz beacon. It needs the Army Air Force Instrument Approach System beacon to work correctly.

I even tried pictures lest words didn't convey my question clearly enough but that didn't work.

My problem is people like you who can't restrain themselves to the limits of the thread's question and have to try to impress people.

I want this thread to end because I feel its going to get ugly soon and I don't want to get banned.

So besides my post count as mentioned by somebody as a qualifier of experience what's your next question ? My favorite color ?

[Freelansir]

I want to thank all who have contributed positive comments to this thread.

I have added an edit to my previous post but as an epilogue to this thread, include it here again as to why my query was limited to within 410 and not the real world.

The B-25 has ILS instrument which is much like the German counterpart, except that it's horizontal needle shows whether plane is above or below correct glide path. This instrument doesn't work with Lorenz beacon. It needs the Army Air Force Instrument Approach System beacon to work correctly.

Take care,

Freelansir