To Oleg or Luthier: 4.09 / mods question [Archive] - Official Fulqrum Publishing forum

x__CRASH__x

06-08-2008, 10:31 PM

First, let me say Thank You for the long awaited updates. BoP looks like it will be a good boost for the 1C brand, and hopefully fuel your machine for future work. I really look forward to the release of all the SOW series.

On to the question: It's been a long time since any 4.09 talk. I know the 1C team has been incredibly busy. I'm not asking "when", but I would like to know what your thoughts are regarding the mods that have come out, and any possible addition of them to the 4.09 patch, making them "official".

I haven't personally added any mods, but I have read a good deal of info on them. Some sound great, like the Sounds mods, and adding exsisting cockpits, like a bf-110 cockpit to a me-210 to make it flyable. I'm all for the addition of new planes. Some mods seem nefarious, like 6DOF, and the possibility of messing with FM's or DM's. And some I'm on the fence about... especially the change in cockpit for the FW-190, removing the lower bar. (Yes, that old arguement again)

I'd like your opinion, and would like to know if there are any plans for some of these to be added to 4.09. Or what plans are there for 4.09?

and when might we see it? (Sorry, had to ask :-D)

Xiola

06-09-2008, 01:29 AM

The problem that the mods bring is that seeing as its possible to remove the bar on the FW190 and change the cockpits, then its obviously possible to have no cockpit at all on cockpit always on servers. Just make a cockpit mod which has all the gfx missing, it would be simple for anyone to do this. THATS the big problem and why so many are against the mods.

Its not the people who add fantastic content, obviously thats great. Its the bad side which comes with the modding which makes it all undesirable.

You cxant have one without the other. The person who broke the code basically opened the game up to unlimited cheating.

Feathered_IV

06-09-2008, 03:16 AM

CRT2 takes care of that to an excellent degree. Any serious mods that use class files get booted automatically.

x__CRASH__x

06-09-2008, 06:40 AM

You cant have one without the other.
Maybe I'm niave because I don't understand game codes and such. But if 1C were to approve certain mods and add them to 4.09 then lock the game up again, wouldn't that be having the benefits without the negatives?

If this were possible, there would be a big debate about what to let in and what not to let in. I would think sounds would be a huge bonus, and of couse I have other preferences, but it really comes down to what 1C decides. My bigger concern is just to lock the game back up so we don't have the possiblity of cheating anymore.

proton45

06-09-2008, 06:49 AM

Maybe I'm niave because I don't understand game codes and such. But if 1C were to approve certain mods and add them to 4.09 then lock the game up again, wouldn't that be having the benefits without the negatives?

If this were possible, there would be a big debate about what to let in and what not to let in. I would think sounds would be a huge bonus, and of couse I have other preferences, but it really comes down to what 1C decides. My bigger concern is just to lock the game back up so we don't have the possiblity of cheating anymore.

my understanding is that a lot of the "mod" sounds (like the BF109) come from the micro$oft flight sim products so they could never be officially included in IL2 1946...

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 07:10 AM

CRT2 takes care of that to an excellent degree. Any serious mods that use class files get booted automatically.

Would be really cool if that was the case. But honestly this function was never fully supported. On Vista-based systems it doesn't work at all. :(

I recently saw an Me-210 attack an airstrip on a non-AI airquake-server, so for me it's not a funny mod any longer.

Feathered_IV

06-09-2008, 08:12 AM

An unexpected hostile aircraft isn't so bad. It's not like you got bounced by a Hello-Kitty Tirpitz or something.

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 08:31 AM

An unexpected hostile aircraft isn't so bad. It's not like you got bounced by a Hello-Kitty Tirpitz or something.

Considering the Me-210 only has AI-flightmodel and thus no overheat and fuel consumption, probably not even an ammo-count, I think it's not far from a flying Tirpitz.

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 08:33 AM

my understanding is that a lot of the "mod" sounds (like the BF109) come from the micro$oft flight sim products so they could never be officially included in IL2 1946...

That is correct - and the most funny part of it ;) - what is okay for a crack is not okay for an official addon, patch or modification.

Feathered_IV

06-09-2008, 09:32 AM

csThor

06-09-2008, 09:37 AM

Question: Does it provide the same functionality for non-TIR users (I mean the "shift POV" functionality)? No? Then you already have the answer, because in the current form it is nothing but a money cheat for those who can afford TIR4 (I've got a TIR4 Pro so "sour grapes" isn't going to work here).

Apart from that I think the mere thought of legalizing the effects of an illegal action (the cracking of the file protection) is pretty ludicrous. Get over it. :roll:

6S.Maraz

06-09-2008, 09:50 AM

Also the new maps have nothing in common with Microsoft or other products
Maraz

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 09:56 AM

The 6DoF mod is not reliant on any other title. It works so very well that I'd love to see it incorporated and made available to the wider community. If nothing else, that alone would bring Il-2 so much more up to date. It would mean opening the correct SFS file, substituting five tiny class files, totalling 24.2kb (thats all it is) and closing the SFS file again. Too hard you reckon?

As long as you can stick your head through the canopy in some planes and look through nose and other parts of the planes in most others, this should remain an option to the non-pit-flyers.
Realistic and immersion are no words I'd bring together with this 6DoF-mod.

KOM.Nausicaa

06-09-2008, 11:03 AM

I don't believe either in the inclusion of mods that are undeniably bound to an illegal crack of a code, and I don't think it will happen.

But, in all fairness, it has to be said that (sometimes to the modders surpise also) some very little changements made it possible to solve old bugs and improve other things. I would say here for example: 1) planes do not fly all the time with nav lights "on" in night missions. 2) the "hole in the wing" bug solved in all BF109 planes 3) the "bar" solved in the FW190 cockpit 4) windgusts now possible on different heights or possible bad weather with and without windgusts...5) option to see smoke/fire much further away...and last but not least 6) possible in mission builder now to select objects by groups (HUGE economy of time for serious mission builder!!) Last one made me, I have to be honest, a little angry at Oleg (sorry Oleg, still love you), because the modder said this option was there all the time, it just needed to be activated with a little number....took about 20sec of work....Do you have any idea how many hundreds of hours I and other mission and campaign builders have lost with object placing....while the option for group placing was there all the time.....I think such thing really deserves "official" activation in 4.09..

Feathered_IV

06-09-2008, 11:21 AM

As long as you can stick your head through the canopy in some planes and look through nose and other parts of the planes in most others, this should remain an option to the non-pit-flyers.
Realistic and immersion are no words I'd bring together with this 6DoF-mod.

Those issues were fixed with version two.
Whatever. Anyway, it won't happen so there is no point making a fuss. Presumably Thor is strongly against 6DoF being a feature of SoW, just in case it offers an advantage against non-tir when online.
If and when SoW sees release, you will find yourself grateful that there is a ready-made community and network of individuals, ready to work on 3rd party projects for BoB's open source component.

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 11:25 AM

You got some valid points there KOM.Nausicaa.

But I still think this is a completely different aspect. These mods are literally done by hundreds of people a lot of them taking codes and sounds from other games, changing certain items, which cause problem on other sides.

Oleg didn't have this choice, because there were other priorities, because he could not just implement code or sounds from other games, because he has to see that a simple patch doesn't make it necessary to upgrade your PC, because for example more units in more packed areas suddenly appear on standard-missions or fires with new OpenGL-routine suck up performance.

he also has to see that an effect on one plane doesn't change the effect on another plane and of course if he'd changed the bar in the FW190 a lot of folks would have cried out loudly, demanding various minor fixes on other planes. You can see what people demand here for justification that just a little thing is promised or changed for another "group of fans".

Developing a game for a market is a lot more complicated than changing a few elements for some fans. ;)

Bobb4

06-09-2008, 11:39 AM

Those issues were fixed with version two.
Whatever. Anyway, it won't happen so there is no point making a fuss. Presumably Thor is strongly against 6DoF being a feature of SoW, just in case it offers an advantage against non-tir when online.
If and when SoW sees release, you will find yourself grateful that there is a ready-made community and network of individuals, ready to work on 3rd party projects for BoB's open source component.
6DOF will be supported in SOW as far as I have read?
Does it give a pilot an unfair advantage over another player? I for one play against several pilots flying with trackir and to be honest I really could not care which way their heads are leaning, neither could my Me109's cannons :grin:
It would be almost as bad as complaining about some pilots having expensive joysticks... It may help but not that much :grin:
The only real mod I have an issue with is the sound mods.

Feathered_IV

06-09-2008, 11:50 AM

..It would be almost as bad as complaining about some pilots having expensive joysticks... It may help but not that much :grin:

I know. I feel like the quest for online parity, at the expense of adding realism to this and future simulations is a fools notion. Perhaps we should pack up the internet and release Storm of War as a card game.

HundertneunGustav

06-09-2008, 11:54 AM

From a neutral/official point of View, the modders snuck in from the back door and made them comfortable in the house, putting their feet on the table, emptying the beer keg and taking bites off the chicken in the oven.

Do oleg and the team now have to go and serve these "bastards" :) dessert? Creme brulee and after that a good irish wishkey, double malt Jameson 1876?
Possibly also apologise?

Because "the community wants"?

Now just WHO are we? Or is the question more like "Who do we think we are"?
Reflect on that question for a moment.

I understand, and mostly agree with what Nausicaa is saying (small features mods, nothing too big and complicated), and i have flown the Liberator too for a few moments, but... N-N, I will stick with what i have been given for about 100 bucks over a 4-5 year period.

And even manage to say thank you. For that BoP vid too.

KOM.Nausicaa

06-09-2008, 12:06 PM

Developing a game for a market is a lot more complicated than changing a few elements for some fans. ;)

I know, I do that for a living.

KOM.Nausicaa

06-09-2008, 12:07 PM

But not activating the group object placer in FMB, which was ALREADY there according to the guy who did it, is beyond my comprehension.

HundertneunGustav

06-09-2008, 12:26 PM

Then let us ask the man and his fellow workers that question, and add to your, and mine and our communities comprehension...?:grin:

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm 8) 8)

HundertneunGustav

06-09-2008, 12:28 PM

That mad complaining of mine, over at the SoH, has reminded me that patience is a virtue...:grin:

Wenn man den Teufel nennt kommt er gerennt!:grin:

skarden

06-09-2008, 03:08 PM

I think this is all being blown out of proportion be be honest,for me the best thing i think to come out of it all(hack's/mods) is def 6DOF,it's made it all soooo much more natual and easy to see what going on around me(plus I'm pretty sure real pilots had 6DOF too ;) ) and i find it kinda ironic that the server's that this would be most usefull(ie full switch server's) are the server's that can't allow it due to CRT2(which i DO totally understand the need for).
As far as it being and advantage,yes it is,but......no more then having trackir as opposed to not having it and having to use the hatswitch(which could be played with so you could use it with a hatswitch,lean button anybody?)or other buttons,or having a full HOTAS over having a cheap stick and useing the keyboard,or a bigger clearer monitor ect ect...If we got this and only this i would be happier then i can put into writing here.

of coarse that said it'll never happen officially for IL-2 so I'm quiet happy to keep useing it offline to enhance my campaign playing :)

Mysticpuma

06-09-2008, 09:49 PM

I thought about this a lot, I really did.

The guys in the modding community have supplied and created many add-ons/improvements that Oleg and team have no time (just look at 4.09) to create and work on as they are onto their next project.

This doesn't mean that it's ok, but alternatively, they have sparked much interest amongst the dedicated and stalwart supporters and flyers of IL2 from the original to 1946 version! This can only serve 1C and Oleg better as it stirs interest in forth-coming projects.

The downside is that people can see what they can have, and if Oleg doesn't have it in his new Sim or BoB, then the staves and pitchforks will be wielded!

What I did think though with a wry smile, is what about if Oleg turned the tables and took the mods and incorporated them into 4.09? How could the modders complain. They have 'stolen' his code, so what could they do if Oleg stole their mods back and incorporated their code?

Now that would be interesting....

Cheers, MP.

Feuerfalke

06-09-2008, 10:05 PM

Would be interesting indeed. But he cannot.

The modders stole the code and ripped files from other games. Oleg hasn't got the freedom to take these sounds and incorporate them into an official patch.

Besides that, it would take quite a long time to see what changes were done, what effect that has on the rest of the game and if the changes are justified or not. I guess some minor things would be accepted, some others probably not.

Another thing is flyables. The modders can simply copy'n'paste flightmodels from similar planes and that's about it. If Oleg did so officially, a flamewar would start, that surpasses any "50s vs Tigers" and "To bar or not to bar" by far.

Even worse with the 6DOF. Oleg posted before, that he'd like to do that for IL2, but the work on the cockpit simply forbid that. As the situation has not really softened down, I don't see why this has changed. So 6DOF wouldn't be possible.

But if you make these exceptions, you also make it pretty clear that you have to review the mods and it's also clear that those not chosen would be pretty pissed.

leitmotiv

06-10-2008, 02:26 AM

This reminds me of the ferocious arguments among boardgamers in the '70's about SPI (Simulations Publications International) boardgames and the Avalon Hill "classics." The Players of the hoary, old Avalon Hill games had a well-established play-by-mail system, player rating system, and convention competition system. These players of had played AH games for years, there was literally an established literature on their play like chess. They perceived the new, popular SPI games as completely toxic. The SPI games were seen to destroy the carefully established competition system which depended on the perpetuation of the use of the AH "classics." SPI players were seen as anarchists by the hard-core AH players. There were bitter debates. Before long everybody recognized the vast superiority of SPI games in terms of quality, realism, and presentation, and the arguments ceased. Nothing in this world stands still. Especially products for consumers. IL-2 is a game. it is not holy doctrine possessed of some intrinsic, immutable truth. It is just a toy.

Oktoberfest

06-10-2008, 08:00 AM

+ 1.... Sadly, things changed. It's like when the knights at middleage posted a rule banning the crossbow because it was a cheat and not fair weapon against them... Well, at the beginning everyone agreed, but no one stopped using them because it was really an improvment in warfare....

6S.Maraz

06-10-2008, 08:19 AM

The modders stole the code and ripped files from other games.

Feuerfalke, you have a wrong perception of what the modders did, that probably comes from ignorance. So please stop offending. Just to inform you. There are lots of modders that made original works, investing lots of time, without copying anything from other games.

Thanks
Maraz

Feuerfalke

06-10-2008, 08:50 AM

Feuerfalke, you have a wrong perception of what the modders did, that probably comes from ignorance. So please stop offending. Just to inform you. There are lots of modders that made original works, investing lots of time, without copying anything from other games.

Thanks
Maraz

It wasn't my intention to offend you or anybody, but in the "soundmod" I had 99% of the files were taken from other sims. Don't know if that really changed with the latest release, which I didn't test yet.

Same is for some other parts of the code, but I won't go into more detail here. The fact that I don't think legalizing the modding-idea is the best choice doesn't mean I am ignorant or that I don't use or test them or look into the things that were changed, JFYI. ;)

LEXX

06-10-2008, 09:51 AM

leitmotive:: This reminds me of the ferocious arguments among boardgamers in the '70's about SPI (Simulations Publications International) boardgames and the Avalon Hill "classics." The Players of the hoary, old Avalon Hill games had a well-established play-by-mail system, player rating system, and convention competition system. These players of had played AH games for years, there was literally an established literature on their play like chess. They perceived the new, popular SPI games as completely toxic. The SPI games were seen to destroy the carefully established competition system which depended on the perpetuation of the use of the AH "classics." SPI players were seen as anarchists by the hard-core AH players. There were bitter debates. Before long everybody recognized the vast superiority of SPI games in terms of quality, realism, and presentation, and the arguments ceased. Nothing in this world stands still. Especially products for consumers. IL-2 is a game. it is not holy doctrine possessed of some intrinsic, immutable truth. It is just a toy.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

Paraquoting Mark Twain, rumours of the sim's demise have been grossly exaggerated. The FB/PF community, online and offline together, has moved well beyond the old "cheater" accusations of the hostile computer gamers as I long ago predicted.

Feathered_IV

06-10-2008, 09:57 AM

LEXX

06-10-2008, 10:30 AM

The Strikefighters' mods sometimes make use of 3rd Party work from other sims. I assume this may be fairly common in the gaming world. Would this be Correct Thinking? As I only play The Sims, and only one The Sim at a time -- Strikefighters currently no more FB -- I never really thought about it before but it makes sense.

Feuerfalke

06-10-2008, 10:38 AM

The samples now come from Mediterranean Air War - the freeware third party addon for CFS3. It's in the readme.

You noticed that the MAW-team doesn't have a sound-creator, but merely people who did the additional voice-packs? ;)
As a freeware-addon, MAW has little problems to use credits for using other peoples or CFS sounds and mixing them with sounds from other sources for a non-profit-addon.

That's different for MG and IL2, though.

Besides that the readme just thanks Lawdog for allowing to use his engine-samples. It doesn't say that all engine samples are from him. ;)
If you follow the discussion on the boards, you'll notice where a lot of sounds came from.

6S.Maraz

06-10-2008, 10:44 AM

It wasn't my intention to offend you or anybody, but in the "soundmod" I had 99% of the files were taken from other sims. Don't know if that really changed with the latest release, which I didn't test yet.

OK, now I understand what you are talking about, but the soundmod is optional and it is only one of tens of mods available: new planes, new effects (smoke, craters, flak, etc...), new default skins, new cockpit skins, new map textures, entirely new maps, etc... . All these are original work.

Maraz

Feuerfalke

06-10-2008, 10:52 AM

OK, now I understand what you are talking about, but the soundmod is optional and it is only one of tens of mods available: new planes, new effects (smoke, craters, flak, etc...), new default skins, new cockpit skins, new map textures, entirely new maps, etc... . All these are original work.

Maraz

Correct. But the thing I pointed out was the problem that Oleg has to dig through all of these mods and ensure himself that there is no code, no texture or soundfile included from another game or all profit from SoW will go to the lawyers.

I have great respect for some of the work (though I still think the way it's done is wrong), but considering all the circumstances, I'd rather have Oleg and his team working on SoW, so these modders can implement their work officially rather than digging through these mods and implementing them in a patch for an old game.

6S.Maraz

06-10-2008, 10:58 AM

I have great respect for some of the work (though I still think the way it's done is wrong), but considering all the circumstances, I'd rather have Oleg and his team working on SoW, so these modders can implement their work officially rather than digging through these mods and implementing them in a patch for an old game.

Yes, I agree that now Oleg has to work on BoB.

Maraz

Skoshi Tiger

06-10-2008, 12:56 PM

The samples now come from Mediterranean Air War - the freeware third party addon for CFS3. It's in the readme.

Just a point here. Just because a thing is 'freeware' doesn't mean that the creators don't own the copyright for that product. They do and would be able to pursue anyone who failed to a abide by the distribution agreement.

Now as long as it was being distributed within the terms of that agreement there wouldn't be a problem. But if the product was distributed as part of a commercial software package, the copyright owners would be entitled to see some moola for all their hard work!

When the Modder rip samples from here, there and every where, who in their right mind would encorporated into a patch for their game? Not me!

Bearcat

06-10-2008, 02:12 PM

IMO the issue of cheating is now moot... Now in the future things may go south... but fore the most part I have not seen the cheating... Some of the things from AAA are just flat out EXCEDLLENT... like the QMB Plus... and the ability to change default skins... the flyable AI planes... all that stuff is great.. and IMO regardless to how the initial process was done... which is an entirely different issue.. credit should be given where it is due... not only to the AAA community admins for doing the job they do to foster an atmosphere where cheating is discouraged on their site.. to some of the flat out great stuff coming from there.

What this reminds me of sometimes is like Prometheus. He stole fire from the gods and gave it ti man.... Now prometheus in the eyes of the gods was wrong and needed to be punished... and he was.... layed out on that rock with the bird eating his liver for all eternity.. Hower the gods with all their power could not take fire back from man... and man could not be faulted one bit for using the tool provided by Prometheus.

I hope that 1C will look at some of the stuff coming from AAA and incorporate what can be incorporated or at the very least give the nod to some of the stuff coming out of there... because it isn't all bad....

Feathered_IV

06-10-2008, 03:03 PM

What this reminds me of sometimes is like Prometheus. He stole fire from the gods and gave it to man.... Now prometheus in the eyes of the gods was wrong and needed to be punished... and he was.... layed out on that rock with the bird eating his liver for all eternity.. Hower the gods with all their power could not take fire back from man... and man could not be faulted one bit for using the tool provided by Prometheus.

Never seen it so perfectly expressed before. Nice one BC ;)

Feuerfalke

06-10-2008, 03:19 PM

Never seen it so perfectly expressed before. Nice one BC ;)

And look how much damage was done with fire, eventually leading to the destruction of the atmosphere and mankind itself. ;)

It's all a question of perspective.

csThor

06-10-2008, 05:08 PM

Bearcat

I think I have a better analogy: Imagine you buy something like a car, a TV, a hi-fi system, a computer, etc from a private person on the internet ... You bought it in good faith and are happy about the purchase. But now let us assume it turns out to have been stolen from someone else. According to german law you still had to hand it back to the original owner, despite your lack of knowledge. And you won't be compensated, either.

The fact remains that someone broke into the file protection and unlocked files which weren't supposed to be open. You honestly think any developer would approve this act retroactively by embracing what other people made of it? Wouldn't that be a sign to other folks that "anything goes"? It would certainly set a precedent which could hurt Maddox Games forever.

LEXX

06-10-2008, 05:30 PM

Bearcat:: IMO the issue of cheating is now moot... Now in the future things may go south... but fore the most part I have not seen the cheating... Some of the things from AAA are just flat out EXCEDLLENT... like the QMB Plus... and the ability to change default skins... the flyable AI planes... all that stuff is great..
Yes, as I have always predicted at the unmoderated ubi forums (Oleg was ran out) where accusastions of "wanting to cheat online" or "wanting to kill the sim" were allowed and even encouraged to be made against Oleg's customers who asked for legitimate modding. However, there is an ironic side if Oleg hack-mods his own sim as suggested here...

Bear:: I hope that 1C will look at some of the stuff coming from AAA and incorporate what can be incorporated or at the very least give the nod to some of the stuff coming out of there... because it isn't all bad....

In general, it is believed that Oleg does NOT favour the modding through the use of the hacked tools. If Oleg takes into his sim one (1) mod or a derivative of a mod that was originally created by the hacked process, then Oleg personally approves the hack derived modding for me on a moral basis.

Oleg's apparent position against hack-modding process is the "moral" reason why I refuse to use any mods but then I don't play the sim anymore because I would like to mod it up! A central bank chairman may call this an irrational connundrum but it is one that could be resolved if Oleg takes into his sim, and so "approves," even one (1) mod or a derivative of it.

Then I can buy my upgrade, 1C gets a repeat customer, and I can modup some early Easter Front which Oleg abandoned long ago, and some Spanish Civil War. I'd like to see JG52_Tuckie's Spanish Civil War modding team come back to the living FB from TargetWare.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Crissy-ylflower.gif

II./JG1_Wilcke

06-10-2008, 05:45 PM

Interesting thread; good point LEXX. I too would have continued buying Olegs products. To this day I would still pay $30 or $40 or $50 for a Spanish Civil War Campaign based on the old IL-2 Engine! Or a North Africa Campaign or a Med Campaign. He could still be raking in the money on the old IL-2. I could be wrong?

Look at the MS Flight Sim market any single aircraft addon can cost $25 to $50USD.

Interesting thread! Oh I liked Luthiers post about the IL-2 source code going to 3rd party about a year ago! Was that leased or sold?

LEXX

06-10-2008, 05:53 PM

Thanks! Here is Tuckie_JG52's TARGET SPAIN thread at the TargetWare forum. Last poast dates from over one year ago.

Tuckie (July 2003):: Well, as you know in this forum, the Spanish Civil War Project has been moving into TargetWare.
~> http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=196
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Cry.gifhttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Sad.gif

Tuckie come home

Wow, I think Thor and I say the same thing, kinda. just...wow ... If Oleg does NOT approve of the generalized process of modding through the hacked tools, then I don't think he will add any of those mods to 4.09. But who knows...

Sunchaser

06-10-2008, 08:24 PM

Oleg does not need to add any mods to 4.09, they are already being added to the 4.09 beta and in fact some of them require 4.09 to work.

DuxCorvan

06-10-2008, 08:42 PM

Bearcat::
Yes, as I have always predicted at the unmoderated ubi forums (Oleg was ran out) where accusastions of "wanting to cheat online" or "wanting to kill the sim" were allowed and even encouraged to be made against Oleg's customers who asked for legitimate modding. However, there is an ironic side if Oleg hack-mods his own sim as suggested here...

Bear::

In general, it is believed that Oleg does NOT favour the modding through the use of the hacked tools. If Oleg takes into his sim one (1) mod or a derivative of a mod that was originally created by the hacked process, then Oleg personally approves the hack derived modding for me on a moral basis.

Oleg's apparent position against hack-modding process is the "moral" reason why I refuse to use any mods but then I don't play the sim anymore because I would like to mod it up! A central bank chairman may call this an irrational connundrum but it is one that could be resolved if Oleg takes into his sim, and so "approves," even one (1) mod or a derivative of it.

Then I can buy my upgrade, 1C gets a repeat customer, and I can modup some early Easter Front which Oleg abandoned long ago, and some Spanish Civil War. I'd like to see JG52_Tuckie's Spanish Civil War modding team come back to the living FB from TargetWare.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Crissy-ylflower.gif

My feelings and thoughts, exactly. My only objections to Il-2 mods comes from their unauthorized, clandestine nature.

skarden

06-10-2008, 08:59 PM

true suncahser but the big question is not if we CAN do it but if we SHOULD do it and I personly agree with BC on this,it wont happen(although I'd love to be wrong) but i still agree.

Thor i think BC's analogy is much better and more relevent and to be honest and unless you'v NEVER dropped litter,jaywalked or broken the law in ANY way ever i find it a bit hippocritical to keep coming back to the law side of it all.I dont mean offence(really i dont)but i cant think of another way to put it.

and as for fire?well it has caused much destruction(although mankind is still here) but it has also brought warmth,life and security to many the world over.
perspective IS a funny thing.

SlipBall

06-10-2008, 09:03 PM

Why in the world should he ever accept any mod's...duh...it would be like
saying it's ok, Oleg accepted, now lets hack bob

SlipBall

06-10-2008, 09:18 PM

Feuerfalke

06-10-2008, 09:32 PM

With all due respect, I think that you should consider resigning your moderator position over at ubi...condoning hacking is a no no for the staff:-P

You want his job, huh? ;)

Crack will never be legalized. You know that and you probably know several reasons why it won't happen.

The pure fact that it's fun to use and some people put a lot of work in it doesn't mean it would do a better job as a legal thing.

(ambiguity intended ;) )

LEXX

06-10-2008, 10:51 PM

Bah. Bear is right in a sense -- some of these mods NEED to be in Oleg's sim from the narrow standpoint of offering the customers a more immersive product, other objections aside for the moment. Its taken 5 years, but we are finding that Oleg's sim is not CFS3, and that Oleg is not Microsoft. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Wink.gif I just looked at the AAA forum, clouds specifically, and the modders seem to be making advances in the sim that could have kept Oleg's customer base more interested in his base product over the decade.

"If only" Oleg had added many of these AAA created features years ago, or better, offered modding tools without a hack required....many asked, and were called "cheaters" on another forum...well, as I always say: maybe for BoB And Beyond.

proton45

06-10-2008, 11:03 PM

And look how much damage was done with fire, eventually leading to the destruction of the atmosphere and mankind itself. ;)

It's all a question of perspective.

Do you ever feel like Sisyphus? :)

I know I do (LOL)

Tbag

06-10-2008, 11:13 PM

LOL. Prometheus, Sisyphus, who's next?

LEXX

06-10-2008, 11:15 PM

Forged in fire, one of the four base elements. Yes.

proton45

06-11-2008, 01:14 AM

The "mods" would NEVER work as a legitimate update...

The only reason people put up with the limitations (and shortcomings) of the mods is because they are an "illegal" hacked mod. People like the idea of the mods because they feel like they are making an "end run" around the "official policy". People feel like the Robbin Hood feeling... people feel like they are giving (and getting) the fixes that (big, bad corporate) Oleg is not able (or is unwilling) to give the fine and loyal customer base.

If the mods where made official and included in a patch people who become much more critical of the work that has been done... people who expect Oleg and his people to "fix" the things that are not perfect with the mods...

Trust me, everyone will be much happier all around as long as the mods are kept "illegal"...

P.S. DON'T get me wrong... many of the mods look very professional, but as I read through the message boards you can read all types of problems that people have with various mod installs and such...and we all know that their are some people that just like to nit-pick and find fault...

skarden

06-11-2008, 02:57 AM

With all due respect, I think that you should consider resigning your moderator position over at ubi...condoning hacking is a no no for the staff:-P

Come on now I dont agree with that at all,mods are allowed to have an opinion too,and it doesnt have to be whatever there'd told it has to be by the powers that be.

they aren't yes men,nor should they be.

p.s. and this isnt the UBI baords :P

Bearcat

06-11-2008, 04:58 AM

My feelings and thoughts, exactly. My only objections to Il-2 mods comes from their unauthorized, clandestine nature.

The mods are not clandestine... they are being done in the open... and as I said.. there may be some not so good stuff in there.. but what I have seen and experienced has been well done and beneficial.. from the toned down dust to the toned down nav lights, the flyable AI AC... The way I see it.. if I could use Pe-8s to simulate B-17s in IL2... which we did.. then using B-25 cockpits for B-17s is not as much of a stretch... and while I still understand how many feel about the way the mods originally came about as I have said from day one.. and it has proven true. These mods are here.. and they aren't going anywhere.

Just for the record... I have tried the mods in case anyone failed to read between the lines.. and I am glad that I waited as long as I did.. I felt that I had to see how all this would pan out before i put my toe in that water... but I have sen no crocks, no fins floating in the water.... no little brown logs and no yellow water... so I jumped in and having tried them I have no regrets. I watched and read at the AAA site for months.. just to see where this was all going... and again.. as I said in this thread.. there has not been rampant cheating .. the sim is not "ruined" and frankly I think that the sim will actually benefit in the long run. There are still new folks coming to UBI every day.

With all due respect, I think that you should consider resigning your moderator position over at ubi...condoning hacking is a no no for the staff:-P

Well if you think I am the only mod who has tried the mods then you are.... naive.

The "mods" would NEVER work as a legitimate update...
The only reason people put up with the limitations (and shortcomings) of the mods is because they are an "illegal" hacked mod. People like the idea of the mods because they feel like they are making an "end run" around the "official policy". People feel like the Robbin Hood feeling... people feel like they are giving (and getting) the fixes that (big, bad corporate) Oleg is not able (or is unwilling) to give the fine and loyal customer base.

If the mods where made official and included in a patch people who become much more critical of the work that has been done... people who expect Oleg and his people to "fix" the things that are not perfect with the mods...

Trust me, everyone will be much happier all around as long as the mods are kept "illegal"...
P.S. DON'T get me wrong... many of the mods look very professional, but as I read through the message boards you can read all types of problems that people have with various mod installs and such...and we all know that their are some people that just like to nit-pick and find fault...

I totally disagree with that. That statement is assuming the worse.. which the entire anti mod camp myself included at one time did. We assumed that because the sim was hacked that that spelled it's demise and we assumed that all the negative things about mods would be at the forefront and none of the positives... and yes... again... it was not official.. but if i said it once I have said it a thousand times... these mods are not going away ... and not only that... we were flat out wrong... the sky has not fallen in, the sim is not ruined... I am sure Olegs pocket is still getting fatter from 46... The current attitude is just as silly as not recognizing Israel's right to exist by some arab nations... IT EXISTS... and it isnt going anywhere.. and neither are these mods. The enhancements to the QMB, the new maps... that Italy Africa Greece map is a thing of beauty... To toally concentrate on the negatives of the whole issue.. and not the positives..... is naive IMO. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years or who knows 3 0r 4 months , widespread hacks will roam the virtual skies of 1946... and the sim will be ruined.. but it hasn't happened yet.. and frankly.... I will enjoy what I have..... all of it... and I have not taken any money out of Oleg's pocket... people talk about "stealing from the developer".. but I bought my sim... more times than many folks here......... It is a great sim.. still and it has been enhanced by these mods. That's a fact.... and it isn't because of any kind of psychobabble nonsense.. it is because some of those mods are just [really really good.... and we need to get past this.. and move on. Drink the kool aid.. or don't... but don't hate the pitcher.. because it ain't going away. I cant wait for BoB to come out.... I know it will be the best thing smoking.. but in the mean time I am going to enjoy all of 1946 that I can get.. and if another add ion on this engine were to come out.. I'd buy that too.... in the meantime. I am flying what is available to me now..... all of it that appeals to me..... as often as I can.

Feuerfalke

06-11-2008, 05:32 AM

I agree that some of these mods are well done and a lot of hard work are put into them, yes.

I don't agree, though, that IL2, Oleg or MG will benefit from it and neither will they ever implement these changes officially. If it does happen against all odds, it means that Oleg officially abandoned his firstborn.

I also disagree that this crack hasn't stolen anything. It's not that they stole money from Oleg, lowered number of sales or anything, but for a lot of people it took away a lot of faith in the brand and in the ability of MG to react in a way to these mods, for example to ban them from certain servers. I've seen it with my own eyes, that these mods were in used on protected servers and I it is exactly what you, Bearcat, and I feared a while ago: It's not about the people who did the mods, it's about people who abuse it.

Besides that, we have to face another threat: While these mods become more popular, a lot of people already posted here and on UBI, what the deal is about BoB. There are a lot of people who think that with the new engine sounds and additional flyables, even their favorite planes, that BoB can't get any better, especially with the limited timescale and the limited number of planes compared to IL2. And on this end of the story, it does steal money away from Oleg, because BoB will have less appeal to people who primarily fly in the Pacific and modern planes like the P51 or Dora and why should they go for SoW, if IL2 seems to be realistic enough and appears to have a larger community working on mods to make it even better? Just look at this board, how many people directly attack Oleg because he didn't fix XY while it was so little effort to do so!
So the second direct effect it has for MG is to push the limits even further up. What that means in terms of delays and further anger of people using the mod or not, well, you know the comments as good as I do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the mods are bad and neither are those working on them, but it's not as easy as to say: The mods are good work and they make IL2 better, so they're perfectly alright. It will always be a two-edged sword. :(

csThor

06-11-2008, 05:32 AM

Feuerfalke

06-11-2008, 05:35 AM

And, judging by the self-righteous attitude and the shoulder clapping I see in "The Dark Side Boards", I cannot help but agree with what proton45 said. There are enough folks over there who'd like to cultivate themselves a "Robin Hood" image and who consider Maddox Games part of the "evil big corporations" who dare to keep features from the "poor little flight simmer". :roll:

Another good point - Agreed 100%.

LEXX

06-11-2008, 06:18 AM

Falke:: Another good point - Agreed 100%.
The "poor little flight simmer" csThor speaks of -- Oleg's paying customer -- seems to enjoy the hacked mods.

csThor

06-11-2008, 06:37 AM

That's the image they cultivate Lexx - the "poor little fan" is nothing but the image of a victim that is forced to resort to "modding" because he's not getting stuff from the "big evil developer".

And don't generalize - I don't and won't ever use the macks. And I still consider myself an Il-2 fan ;)

Arrow

06-11-2008, 06:44 AM

I think that these so called "mods" are just a mess to ruin a stable running sim. Some of them have a lot of work invested in them and I respect that, but from sim compatibility point of view, they are just a mess - that noone of the modders really knows what issue their mods cause in the internal code. From that point of view it is just naive to expect Oleg to include this in his sim. As with all mods, you end up more fiddling with them than playing the game...Just my opinion..

kapteeni

06-11-2008, 06:44 AM

[QUOTE=Bearcat;43751]The mods are not clandestine... they are being done in the open... and as I said.. there may be some not so good stuff in there.. but what I have seen and experienced has been well done and beneficial.. from the toned down dust to the toned down nav lights, the flyable AI AC... The way I see it.. if I could use Pe-8s to simulate B-17s in IL2... which we did.. then using B-25 cockpits for B-17s is not as much of a stretch... and while I still understand how many feel about the way the mods originally came about as I have said from day one.. and it has proven true. These mods are here.. and they aren't going anywhere.

Just for the record... I have tried the mods in case anyone failed to read between the lines.. and I am glad that I waited as long as I did.. I felt that I had to see how all this would pan out before i put my toe in that water... but I have sen no crocks, no fins floating in the water.... no little brown logs and no yellow water... so I jumped in and having tried them I have no regrets. I watched and read at the AAA site for months.. just to see where this was all going... and again.. as I said in this thread.. there has not been rampant cheating .. the sim is not "ruined" and frankly I think that the sim will actually benefit in the long run. There are still new folks coming to UBI every day.

+1
I think, that this game should be opened for modding legally. It would be moneywise too! Lots of people would buy if they could add new maps, buildings, vechiles and yes, even planes to it. What about official "Mod addon" with maptools, 3d converter?
Almost all the new games comes with somekind of possibility to add mods. It is not Filthy, it's progress.
We need open conversation about adding new things to this best flightsim ever. We can make it even better.

PS New maps looks great. Be sure

LEXX

06-11-2008, 06:57 AM

csThor, as you are not the only FB fan, just be careful not to use sloganistic gamer webboard insults against non-modding FB fans who may enjoy mods made by modders.

csThor

06-11-2008, 07:09 AM

Your previous post could be read in a way that you consider people opposing modding as non-fans. ;)

But we both made our point. No need to dig deeper.

LEXX

06-11-2008, 07:19 AM

Okay! No need to insult Oleg's "other" customers here. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

Arrow:: I think that these so called "mods" are just a mess to ruin a stable running sim. Some of them have a lot of work invested in them and I respect that, but from sim compatibility point of view, they are just a mess - that noone of the modders really knows what issue their mods cause in the internal code. From that point of view it is just naive to expect Oleg to include this in his sim. As with all mods, you end up more fiddling with them than playing the game...Just my opinion..
My analogy is the Messy Sandwich. You can get a nice, well behaved "clean" sandwich at say...McDonalds, or a dripping mess sandwich at a real Italian or Polish Deli.

But you are right. You get what you pay for in time invested. Some are willing to spend the time tweaking to satisfy their historical interests, others are not. The tweaking required in this case is probably increased because of the unofficial or "hacked" nature of the modding methods. That, and the modding is still just starting out, in early discovery process so to speak.

Having started out with Oleg's FB as my first modern (Windows) sim, I used to make fun of other sims that required players to "downloading half the internets" to tweak a computer game, until I started a modding project in another sim that no sim developer has ever covered, and I had to download half the internets. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/banghead.gif But its worth it to put it all together and create something never done before.

Arrow

06-11-2008, 08:01 AM

Okay! No need to insult Oleg's "other" customers here. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

Arrow::
My analogy is the Messy Sandwich. You can get a nice, well behaved "clean" sandwich at say...McDonalds, or a dripping mess sandwich at a real Italian or Polish Deli.

But you are right. You get what you pay for in time invested. Some are willing to spend the time tweaking to satisfy their historical interests, others are not. The tweaking required in this case is probably increased because of the unofficial or "hacked" nature of the modding methods. That, and the modding is still just starting out, in early discovery process so to speak.

Having started out with Oleg's FB as my first modern (Windows) sim, I used to make fun of other sims that required players to "downloading half the internets" to tweak a computer game, until I started a modding project in another sim that no sim developer has ever covered, and I had to download half the internets. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/banghead.gif But its worth it to put it all together and create something never done before.

I get that ... I've also spent lot of time with modding, SF/WoV, Silent hunter, Falcon 4.0 - but in the end it always ended in always some tweaking, something was not working right, performance issues, than again reading forums and looking for answers and which mod is incompatible with which. Anyone who wants to do it and has time for it - can do it. But the point I wanted to illustrate was that Il2 alone should be kept as a clean finetuned running sim, which it already is.

Feuerfalke

06-11-2008, 08:29 AM

I get that ... I've also spent lot of time with modding, SF/WoV, Silent hunter, Falcon 4.0 - but in the end it always ended in always some tweaking, something was not working right, performance issues, than again reading forums and looking for answers and which mod is incompatible with which. Anyone who wants to do it and has time for it - can do it. But the point I wanted to illustrate was that Il2 alone should be kept as a clean finetuned running sim, which it already is.

Well said. I personally don't miss anything with the original.

@ LEXX:

I agreed with csThors posts, because it says a lot about what is currently going on: As you can see with Bearcats statements, peoples minds change. It's no longer good vs evil, the unspeakables against brown-noses and the reason why you get in trouble when posting links to the mods is not because the mods are damned, but because the initial crack was and is illegal.

But while official sides remain silent, the so-called "brown-noses" made their decision or tend to test the mod sooner or later, the modding-community is still fighting loudly against windmills. And it IS just like csThor put it: This self-shoulder-padding of some people showing MG how easy it is to fix problems with IL2 (even on this board!) is just as misplaced as it is unfair. And this Rebellion against the evil Olegian Empire story is just ridiculous, sorry.

I've been active in the F4-modding-community for a long time, now, and though the modders did an awesome job making the game much better as it initially was, the idea of making the job better than the original programmers did themselves was new to me until this modding-thing with IL2 arose.

Bearcat

06-11-2008, 01:01 PM

BC ... you've gone a long way to a mack cheerleader. Why is it so hard to understand that Oleg can't and won't give them his blessing? Not going to happen so bringing up the point is just

a) pointless
b) prone to bring up the old discussions again

I don't think anyone here really believes that the macks are going to go away if they only pray enough, but these "Oleg please incorporate ..." posts aren't exactly helpful to board peace, either. They're just pointless.
And, judging by the self-righteous attitude and the shoulder clapping I see in "The Dark Side Boards", I cannot help but agree with what proton45 said. There are enough folks over there who'd like to cultivate themselves a "Robin Hood" image and who consider Maddox Games part of the "evil big corporations" who dare to keep features from the "poor little flight simmer". :roll:

I doubt if Oleg would use any of them either.. but some of them IMO are worthy.. but thats just my opinion... which is just mine. As for Bob.. I really think that BoB will be so good that when it does come out even the folks who want to fly in other theaters will still buy it. I think the sim will be so revolutionary and just so plain old good that it will sell like hotcakes. I believe Oleg said that it would be partly moddable for off line use. I know it will be on my HD the day it is released.. as was FB, the AEP, PF,Pe-2, and 46..

I am just being a realist Thor... thats all.

AS for the attitude of many on the AAA boards.. well I have to totally agree with you there Thor... and I told them as much when one of their members started talking about how dead the UBI forums were.. which they aren't... and then the whole litany of "the UBI noobs" "If Oleg gave us BoB it would be done" etc etc came out. Truth be told for all the trash they talk many of the members are just leeches.. they take take take and don't even support the site... which is a shame really. My posts on the issue were removed.. but I do agree that ther is an elitist mentality over there.. and of the over 10000 members I bet less than 1/10 is supporting the site either with work as in mods or $$$ in doantions to keep it running.

JG52Uther

06-11-2008, 01:16 PM

SlipBall

06-11-2008, 02:33 PM

I doubt Oleg would ever use any of the mods developed from AAA for il2,and thats fine with me,as I want Oleg to concentrate on SoW.il2 is dead to Oleg.

BC I agree with you about the lack of the donations there.Some of the most vocal on the site are the ones who give nothing.

Did you read where Oleg refering to SOW said, you want your Son to have along life. I don't think that Oleg views IL2 as dead, only views it as a child of his violated and mangled by some who are never happy, they always wanting more, and more

Feathered_IV

06-11-2008, 02:40 PM

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd119/Feathered_IV/grab0000-11.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd119/Feathered_IV/grab0002-7.jpg

proton45

06-11-2008, 03:58 PM

from BearCat:

I totally disagree with that. That statement is assuming the worse.. which the entire anti mod camp myself included at one time did. We assumed that because the sim was hacked that that spelled it's demise and we assumed that all the negative things about mods would be at the forefront and none of the positives... and yes... again... it was not official.. but if i said it once I have said it a thousand times... these mods are not going away ... and not only that... we were flat out wrong... the sky has not fallen in, the sim is not ruined... I am sure Olegs pocket is still getting fatter from 46... The current attitude is just as silly as not recognizing Israel's right to exist by some arab nations... IT EXISTS... and it isnt going anywhere.. and neither are these mods. The enhancements to the QMB, the new maps... that Italy Africa Greece map is a thing of beauty... To toally concentrate on the negatives of the whole issue.. and not the positives..... is naive IMO. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years or who knows 3 0r 4 months , widespread hacks will roam the virtual skies of 1946... and the sim will be ruined.. but it hasn't happened yet.. and frankly.... I will enjoy what I have..... all of it... and I have not taken any money out of Oleg's pocket... people talk about "stealing from the developer".. but I bought my sim... more times than many folks here......... It is a great sim.. still and it has been enhanced by these mods. That's a fact.... and it isn't because of any kind of psychobabble nonsense.. it is because some of those mods are just [really really good.... and we need to get past this.. and move on. Drink the kool aid.. or don't... but don't hate the pitcher.. because it ain't going away. I cant wait for BoB to come out.... I know it will be the best thing smoking.. but in the mean time I am going to enjoy all of 1946 that I can get.. and if another add ion on this engine were to come out.. I'd buy that too.... in the meantime. I am flying what is available to me now..... all of it that appeals to me..... as often as I can.

I feel ya Bearcat, but I don't think your reading what I'm really saying...your response doesn't address any of my concerns.

My point is that many of the mods are far from perfect, and Oleg would end up spending a great deal of time making sure that everything was up to standard (and running smooth). Many people (over at AAA) have problems with the game running smoothly after they installing mods... My point is that people are tolerant of these hick-ups because they are dealing with "hack-mods", if they where made official people would not tolerate "hick-ups in game performance"...

Feuerfalke

06-11-2008, 04:08 PM

I feel ay Bearcat, but I don't think your reading what I'm really saying...

My point is that many of the mods are far from perfect, and Oleg would end up spending a great deal of time making sure that everything was up to standard (and running smooth). Many people (over at AAA) have problems with the game running smoothly after they installing mods... My point is that people are tolerant of these hick-ups because they are dealing with "hack-mods", if they where made official people would not tolerate "hick-ups in game performance"...

That's exactly the point. As long as this has the charm of a rebellion against the mighty empire, people can even live with the holes in the cockpit when using 6DOF.
Now considering what fuss was made about the 1cm larger bar on the 190, imagine what happens when people who don't know anything about the charm of Luke vs Darth Oleg have to install that patch in order to play with other people. Or take the pictures of the clouds posted above. People would whine because these are the same clouds, just blown up to the point where the minor texture problems become a big mess on the outer rims. Not even daring to speak of the effects on casting shadows on the land below in the right size, too, or the effect when tuning clouds to other types.

Revolter

06-11-2008, 04:28 PM

Bearcat

06-11-2008, 09:38 PM

I feel ya Bearcat, but I don't think your reading what I'm really saying...your response doesn't address any of my concerns.
My point is that many of the mods are far from perfect, and Oleg would end up spending a great deal of time making sure that everything was up to standard (and running smooth). Many people (over at AAA) have problems with the game running smoothly after they installing mods... My point is that people are tolerant of these hick-ups because they are dealing with "hack-mods", if they where made official people would not tolerate "hick-ups in game performance"...

I dunno..... For me thre things I have seen... I like... little things.. and IMO they are improvements to the sim. As I said... the tioned down nav lights.. the reduced dust... ther flyable AI pits are done nicely.. the 6DoF is done nicelyh.. there are not a lot of gaps and holes as we or I thought there would be. IMO from the mods that I have seen.. and those are the onmly ones I can comment on... they have made a great sim even more special. Far from mangling and violating it. I didn't have major issues with the original sounds.. but these new ones sound real good.. at least to me. I for one am not "tolerant" of of "hack mods" .. if it doesnt work well IMO then I don't want it on my HD.... and I dont think I am alone.. so far all the ones in that mod pack I got.. which was not the "official" one on AAA but one put together by another community member for his group, but all those mods only make the sim better.... look at those clouds up there.... look at that Italy Africa Greece map... and tell me that the sim is suffering.. or is violated because of that.. Of course it is all up to individuals.. as to what they want to do.... but after seeing that the online integrity of the sim has not been ruined as I and many others were afraid of.. and there aren't a lot of garbage mods out there that I have seen.. but I am sure they exist.... My needs are pretty simple... I think the sim is damn near perfect even in it's stock form... and like I told the guys over @ AAA , they were acting like they had invented something out of thin air.... Oleg made the platform that they are working on... and they need to be mindful of that and not slag him because without him none of this would be here.

proton45

06-11-2008, 10:02 PM

I dunno..... For me thre things I have seen... I like... little things.. and IMO they are improvements to the sim. As I said... the tioned down nav lights.. the reduced dust... ther flyable AI pits are done nicely.. the 6DoF is done nicelyh.. there are not a lot of gaps and holes as we or I thought there would be. IMO from the mods that I have seen.. and those are the onmly ones I can comment on... they have made a great sim even more special. Far from mangling and violating it. I didn't have major issues with the original sounds.. but these new ones sound real good.. at least to me. I for one am not "tolerant" of of "hack mods" .. if it doesnt work well IMO then I don't want it on my HD.... and I dont think I am alone.. so far all the ones in that mod pack I got.. which was not the "official" one on AAA but one put together by another community member for his group, but all those mods only make the sim better.... look at those clouds up there.... look at that Italy Africa Greece map... and tell me that the sim is suffering.. or is violated because of that.. Of course it is all up to individuals.. as to what they want to do.... but after seeing that the online integrity of the sim has not been ruined as I and many others were afraid of.. and there aren't a lot of garbage mods out there that I have seen.. but I am sure they exist.... My needs are pretty simple... I think the sim is damn near perfect even in it's stock form... and like I told the guys over @ AAA , they were acting like they had invented something out of thin air.... Oleg made the platform that they are working on... and they need to be mindful of that and not slag him because without him none of this would be here.

I like some of the stuff I see too...

But all the mods are available and people can add them to their hard drive if they want too...I just don't think that they have to be made into official updates. I think in the long run it would be creating far more work for Oleg and team then they need right now.

If Oleg started including "the mods" in the official up-dates their would be no end to the requests he would start getting. "Oleg could you fix this unrealistic thing?" or "Oleg could you fix the 50cal's?" or "Oleg, so and so says its easy to fix the DM so you have to fix it...", ect...

I want him to finish "BoB SoW"...

LEXX

06-12-2008, 12:43 AM

Arrow:: I get that ... I've also spent lot of time with modding, SF/WoV, Silent hunter, Falcon 4.0 - but in the end it always ended in always some tweaking, something was not working right, performance issues, than again reading forums and looking for answers and which mod is incompatible with which. Anyone who wants to do it and has time for it - can do it. But the point I wanted to illustrate was that Il2 alone should be kept as a clean finetuned running sim, which it already is.
Yes, that's prove's my point -- using mods works for some, but not for others.

The modders can't technically do "better" than Oleg, especially with unsupported modding methods, but they create things Oleg never tried to, and so the modders are "better" at creating gaming content. Content creation is the general goal of independent 3rd Party modding.

LEXX

06-12-2008, 12:53 AM

Arrow (again :) ):: But the point I wanted to illustrate was that Il2 alone should be kept as a clean finetuned running sim, which it already is.
I thought more about this, paying better attention I hope. I assume your I-L2 is clean finetuned running sim now without any mods. The mods exist "out there" somewhere else. Mods don't hurt your IL-2. It seems like you made a logic error here, but I don't think so. Instead, you may be thinking of something that we don't know about. For example...

Reading between your lines -- If you are, in your mind, narrowing your point with respect to modding and anonymous public servers, but not telling us this, then we must find out before we can have a discussion (if this is the case). I can see how modding might hurt anonymous public servers, especially innocent Newbies to the sim before they find a private server.

Bearcat

06-12-2008, 03:07 AM

I like some of the stuff I see too...
But all the mods are available and people can add them to their hard drive if they want too...I just don't think that they have to be made into official updates. I think in the long run it would be creating far more work for Oleg and team then they need right now.

If Oleg started including "the mods" in the official up-dates their would be no end to the requests he would start getting. "Oleg could you fix this unrealistic thing?" or "Oleg could you fix the 50cal's?" or "Oleg, so and so says its easy to fix the DM so you have to fix it...", ect...

I want him to finish "BoB SoW"...

You misunderstand.. thats not what I mean... I may have not been clear... What I meant was not that Oleg should incorporate the mods into patches.. but that he should get involved now that the paste is out of the tube to make the process more..... stable. Since he knows the code..

LEXX

06-12-2008, 03:45 AM

You mean modding tools? That would be dreamy but then, honestly, Oleg needs BoB And Beyond more than bread and FB mods. Focus on the Beyond part. The faster Oleg pushes out BoB, the faster we get P-51Dora in Beyond.

proton45

06-12-2008, 03:49 AM

You misunderstand.. thats not what I mean... I may have not been clear... What I meant was not that Oleg should incorporate the mods into patches.. but that he should get involved now that the paste is out of the tube to make the process more..... stable. Since he knows the code..

I guess I misunderstood...

I thought that because you where responding to something I said, that in some way you where responding to something I wrote (?)... :)

I guess you where reacting to the way I characterized the attitude/talk on the AAA forum (sorry but thats the attitude I see their a lot of the time)... I think that they are far more demanding and critical of Oleg and his team then they are of the people who contribute game modifications...

x__CRASH__x

06-12-2008, 06:58 AM

I was really hoping to have a 1C answer by now. :\

LEXX

06-12-2008, 07:27 AM

We are all 1C now http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/00.gif

Feathered_IV

06-12-2008, 08:41 AM

I was really hoping to have a 1C answer by now. :\

The silence is telling enough don't you think? If MG can not bring themselves to comment, here on their own forums, I suspect they are well past caring. When the Lerche appeared in the planelist, I took that as the signal that Oleg Maddox no longer personally endorsed the Il-2 series.

DKoor

06-12-2008, 09:39 AM

When the Lerche appeared in the planelist, I took that as the signal that Oleg Maddox no longer personally endorsed the Il-2 series.Can't agree more.

Remembering the times when one couldn't ask for a plane with good data info coverage, good pics, but if some detail was lacking it couldn't make in.

Feuerfalke

06-12-2008, 10:05 AM

I was really hoping to have a 1C answer by now. :\

Just as with the updates, people never get the answers they want to get.

The silence should really be answer enough for now, as are the many people stating why it's impossible or at least highly doubtable, that Oleg would officially accept the mods or even officially support them with tools (that is really the most unlikely thing to happen in all this debate, IMHO)

Let's also not forget that this choice is not up to Oleg alone, but also to 1C and UBI. And considering the history of Falcon4 I have absolutely no doubt, that they'll ever give their okay.

KG26_Alpha

06-12-2008, 10:17 AM

Ermmm ???

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2384

Pike

06-12-2008, 12:49 PM

Dear All,
Regarding the MODS situation......I think that any slight problem with MODS is tolerated because they, as with Olegs updates to his game, were given freely...I don't think it is a case of the 'Robin Hood' syndrome. If I had to pay for them with my hard earned money, I would expect it to be virtually flawless. Also it has often been the case that people were required to make slight adjustments to get things to work and many of them were not exactly computer literate......let alone the question of language and being understood...(Thank god English is widely spoken otherwise I would be hopeless.)!
Some of the work coming from the AAA site is incredible, and they do it for the sheer love of the Sim......something that perhaps is lost on those harbouring more corperate views. However, Oleg, whatever his personal views can never be seen to support hackers for obvious reasons.
Best regards,
Pike.

Arrow

06-12-2008, 12:49 PM

Arrow (again :) )::
I thought more about this, paying better attention I hope. I assume your I-L2 is clean finetuned running sim now without any mods. The mods exist "out there" somewhere else. Mods don't hurt your IL-2. It seems like you made a logic error here, but I don't think so. Instead, you may be thinking of something that we don't know about. For example...

Reading between your lines -- If you are, in your mind, narrowing your point with respect to modding and anonymous public servers, but not telling us this, then we must find out before we can have a discussion (if this is the case). I can see how modding might hurt anonymous public servers, especially innocent Newbies to the sim before they find a private server.

I was refering to the request to include the MOds into official patch. The other point I wanted to illustrate is that, the big chunk of MODs can bring more problems than benefits really, but that's everyone's personal choice (with no regard to their illegal nature)

Feathered_IV

06-12-2008, 12:57 PM

Almost all of the mods (with the exception of sound samples) are so far nothing more than retextures and tweaks to existing codes. MG would be quite within their rights to adjust their default settings to something similar without being seen to "adopt illegal hacks".

Feuerfalke

06-12-2008, 01:16 PM

Pointless discussion. No matter how often it is repeated.

LEXX

06-12-2008, 02:33 PM

Feather:: Almost all of the mods (with the exception of sound samples) are so far nothing more than retextures and tweaks to existing codes. MG would be quite within their rights to adjust their default settings to something similar without being seen to "adopt illegal hacks".
That's what I'd hope. A good business watches the customers and learns what they like doing and make future sims that keep long term customers. I can only WISH for The Sims developers to get ideas of the air warfare environment from my Strikefighter cirrus clouds, contrails, etc...but some of my 3rd Party stuff is bizzaro weird -- never done before -- and breaks the game as-normal so I understand what Arrow is saying (big time), but the Devs can build their future sims so stuff works right.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Cockpits/Yak-25M-2.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/img00007.jpg

For me, the sticking point for The Sims seems to be restricting visually seen grafix to about 10km...except for terrain and in some cases clouds, the player only sees things inside a small "dogfight" radius. Now the DR does expand with sim era...a India/Pakistan sim would have a larger dogfight radius than a WW1 sim.

Seeker

06-14-2008, 07:07 PM

What a bunch of whining cheaters <shakes head>

Feuerfalke

06-14-2008, 09:54 PM

Completely unnecessary comment.

Doesn't help anybody except your own post-count.

fireflyerz

06-14-2008, 10:58 PM

Pointless discussion. No matter how often it is repeated.

:arrow: spot on.... :arrow:

leitmotiv

06-15-2008, 01:37 AM

The mods are not clandestine... they are being done in the open... and as I said.. there may be some not so good stuff in there.. but what I have seen and experienced has been well done and beneficial.. from the toned down dust to the toned down nav lights, the flyable AI AC... The way I see it.. if I could use Pe-8s to simulate B-17s in IL2... which we did.. then using B-25 cockpits for B-17s is not as much of a stretch... and while I still understand how many feel about the way the mods originally came about as I have said from day one.. and it has proven true. These mods are here.. and they aren't going anywhere.

Just for the record... I have tried the mods in case anyone failed to read between the lines.. and I am glad that I waited as long as I did.. I felt that I had to see how all this would pan out before i put my toe in that water... but I have sen no crocks, no fins floating in the water.... no little brown logs and no yellow water... so I jumped in and having tried them I have no regrets. I watched and read at the AAA site for months.. just to see where this was all going... and again.. as I said in this thread.. there has not been rampant cheating .. the sim is not "ruined" and frankly I think that the sim will actually benefit in the long run. There are still new folks coming to UBI every day.

Well if you think I am the only mod who has tried the mods then you are.... naive.

I totally disagree with that. That statement is assuming the worse.. which the entire anti mod camp myself included at one time did. We assumed that because the sim was hacked that that spelled it's demise and we assumed that all the negative things about mods would be at the forefront and none of the positives... and yes... again... it was not official.. but if i said it once I have said it a thousand times... these mods are not going away ... and not only that... we were flat out wrong... the sky has not fallen in, the sim is not ruined... I am sure Olegs pocket is still getting fatter from 46... The current attitude is just as silly as not recognizing Israel's right to exist by some arab nations... IT EXISTS... and it isnt going anywhere.. and neither are these mods. The enhancements to the QMB, the new maps... that Italy Africa Greece map is a thing of beauty... To toally concentrate on the negatives of the whole issue.. and not the positives..... is naive IMO. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years or who knows 3 0r 4 months , widespread hacks will roam the virtual skies of 1946... and the sim will be ruined.. but it hasn't happened yet.. and frankly.... I will enjoy what I have..... all of it... and I have not taken any money out of Oleg's pocket... people talk about "stealing from the developer".. but I bought my sim... more times than many folks here......... It is a great sim.. still and it has been enhanced by these mods. That's a fact.... and it isn't because of any kind of psychobabble nonsense.. it is because some of those mods are just [really really good.... and we need to get past this.. and move on. Drink the kool aid.. or don't... but don't hate the pitcher.. because it ain't going away. I cant wait for BoB to come out.... I know it will be the best thing smoking.. but in the mean time I am going to enjoy all of 1946 that I can get.. and if another add ion on this engine were to come out.. I'd buy that too.... in the meantime. I am flying what is available to me now..... all of it that appeals to me..... as often as I can.

WOHEEE!!! Go Bearcat---all your analogies are on target, and your logic is on target. The Israel analogy is brilliant!!!! Prometheus---wowwwwww!!!!!!

TUCKIE_JG52

06-16-2008, 09:22 PM

Thanks! Here is Tuckie_JG52's TARGET SPAIN thread at the TargetWare forum. Last poast dates from over one year ago.

Tuckie (July 2003):: http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Cry.gifhttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Sad.gif

Tuckie come home

I read your words with big surprise, I was out of this forum due to a lot of work in other aeronautical areas, and when I come back interested in mods, I read this :)

Soon, there will see some SCW related big surprise... I can't write more for the moment :)
But no, it's not an SCW mod or new simulator. Just something different. :)

For the moment, it is clear for me that I cannot use the sound mod for that surprise. What a pity :(

proton45

06-17-2008, 12:09 AM

WOHEEE!!! Go Bearcat---all your analogies are on target, and your logic is on target. The Israel analogy is brilliant!!!! Prometheus---wowwwwww!!!!!!

He joined the "dark side", not with a whimper but with a bang! ...strutting with attitude and swagger (LOL)... :)

(Now I may have to check them out too...LOL)

LEXX

06-17-2008, 01:58 AM

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/marchmellow.gif
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Crissy-ylflower.gif

Tuckie came home! http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Yippee--fast.gif Man/Manette, its great to just see you on a Maddox forum. AwSim

TUCKIE_JG52:: I read your words with big surprise, I was out of this forum due to a lot of work in other aeronautical areas, and when I come back interested in mods, I read this

Soon, there will see some SCW related big surprise... I can't write more for the moment
But no, it's not an SCW mod or new simulator. Just something different.

For the moment, it is clear for me that I cannot use the sound mod for that surprise. What a pity

ElAurens

06-17-2008, 03:18 AM

We are all 1C now http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/00.gif

So, Oleg is paying your salary over at TK's dead end sim?

I didn't think so.

Such arrogance Lexx.

Feuerfalke hit the nail on the head, this whole thread is pointless.

Crash, A for effort on a troll post buddy. You bagged your limit for sure.

Bearcat

06-17-2008, 03:55 AM

He joined the "dark side", not with a whimper but with a bang! ...strutting with attitude and swagger (LOL)... :)

(Now I may have to check them out too...LOL)

No attitude & swagger.. just a hard shot of reality. I havent tied all thos emods.. but the ones I did try were well done. Had that not been so , had all of them been crappy hacks.. I really dont think they would have taken off. Thin about it.. do you really think that the same sim community that gave Oleg hell ove improper gauges and load outs would tolerate really slip shod mods? I don't think so.. Granted Oleg & 1C probably could have done a lot of this better.. but I just cant believe that these modders were able to do things that 1C couldnt. If 1C couldnt it was certainly not because of a lack of skill.. if these modders can do it.. 1C could have too... but perhaps it was contractural things or.. who knows.. but the bottom line is it is done.. and it aint bad. I don't know if Oleg has tried any of the mods.. out of curiosity... but I bet he wold be impressed by a few of them.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 06:33 AM

So what do you really want Bearcat?

Do you just want to advertise people, because you once were against these mods and are now enthusiastic all over?

Or do you want a general amnesty for the modders, so they can post and advertise their mods freely? Then look at this thread and that it was not locked, though there were even direct attacks against 1C and MG, because modders fixed things that they couldn't and even you mentioned this, no matter that you tried to make it look more friendly then some others, probably out of some rest of remaining respect?

Or do you want Oleg to officially accept and support the crack?

Don't get me wrong. As I posted a lot of times before, I really have respect for a lot of hard work put into this, but it is your message, that I can't take. Just because some people put a lot of effort in something to achieve things that you expected from official sides for years doesn't change the fact that it is all based upon an illegal crack and that a lot of people fell offended and irritated by these discussions.
If the MonaLisa was stolen from the Louvre, repainted in 3 years work, her fainted smile turned into a real one, her breasts upgraded and hair styled, reworked with modern techniques and published officially for free, would you think that's a good idea either, just because there was so much work put into it and it's now available for free?

Superficial equation, I know, but true in 2 things:
1. Something based on a bad thing isn't good because a lot of good people worked on it and some people like it.
2. The only sense this whole thread has is to keep this worn out topic on top of the list, but what you don't see is, that it damages your intentions a lot more than it could have ever helped to put this on THIS forums.

LEXX

06-17-2008, 08:06 AM

FFalke:: So what do you really want Bearcat?
I have not bothered to ask Oleg to add "some" AAA mods to his sim, although I would think it a great idea from the narrow standpoint of customer immersion -- other real concerns aside. But then, I won't tell others not to ask either, unless they are snotty about it, and neither Bear nor Crash have been.

Falke: a friendly tip for webboard behavior -- You can read Bear's poasts if you wish to know what Bear "really wants."

The Mona Lisa parable is a howl, and easily worthy of computer gamer forums. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 08:12 AM

Well, Bearcat posted we have to accept it, because it's there and won't go away.

As you can see this thread still exists, so he's at least running in open doors. The pure fact that there is no official invitation to discuss these things here doesn't change that.

What strikes me is the argumentation, though. Just because something is there doesn't mean we have to like it. ;)

LEXX

06-17-2008, 08:13 AM

ElAurens, that was my attempt at humour -- like the quip "we are all keynesians now" often attributed to Nixon although some say Friedman originated this. After the fact, I can see how it could be none too obvious.

I see you still carry the burden of bitterness and are still Whining about me molding another sim we have been assuming you are not playing.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/QuestionMark.gif

LEXX

06-17-2008, 08:33 AM

Falke, I don't think Bear said we have to accept unauthorized mods in our sims. But I can see how we have to accept the visible fact that the modding is there -and- the fact that it won't go away.

I don't think Bear ever said "falke" has to or is required to like unauthorized modding. Shucks, Oleg probably doesn't like it. Granted, it is said on the forums that Oleg knew about the hack several years ago, yet he did not prevent the hack from becoming widely used after the end of the sim's development.

Falke:: Well, Bearcat posted we have to accept it, because it's there and won't go away.
:
:
:
What strikes me is the argumentation, though. Just because something is there doesn't mean we have to like it.http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/QuestionMark.gif

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 09:09 AM

Then I even less understand why there's so much fuzz about it? If it's just to accept it's there, well, we wouldn't discuss here, if we didn't know, so that can't be the goal.

So, just for my slow personal understanding: Is this to advertise on the existence of the mods? Well, if that's the case, then this thread is by far the poorest way to do so IMHO.
People who are interested in modding the game won't need much help to click the various links on www.google.de

But either way, I think it's a bad choice to discuss this HERE. IMHO this campaign is like advertising on alcohol or cigarettes on a blue-cross-site. Sure you may find some people interested, but you piss off a lot of other people (as you can see in this thread) and it's the best way to not show respect towards the people who made the game and maintain this forum. And even in Bearcats post above, intentionally or not, it's very easy to understand like "look what the mods have done, what MG didn't do for years" and that attitude won't help anybody, including mod-makers, MG, the community or BoB.

Even what you just posted, Lexx, that MG knew about the crack and didn't intervene is easily seen as a bad support for this game, incompetence from MG and 1C to handle such a situation and act accordingly. And after all the stuff that was given to us for free, is that really your message?

Again, just to make that perfectly clear: I am not against the mods themselves, but against the way it is discussed and promoted. IMHO the old words "The end justifies the means." completely backfires on the Mods, 1C and BoB the longer this discussion goes. And THAT is the only point to this discussion, because it failed on anything else, the moment this was posted on the publishers site.

Pike

06-17-2008, 09:09 AM

Well, Like it or not it has certainly breathed new life into an older Sim and I suspect it will continue for some time yet.
One point though.....I think that given Oleg's resources and time constraints....now we have people all over the world simultaneously producing new maps etc which Oleg's team would have neither the time, people nor money to do in such a short timespan. I'm sure if he could have done them he would have eventually. If I were him I would just be quietly contented about my achievements and legacy......I can see one day in the future when there will be statues dedicated to him as the founder of modern flight sims if his work continues at this quality and rate.
I also don't quite understand the view on cheating, because you only play with your friends whom, I would have thought, would have no wish to cheat you. So any 'cheaters' would end up banned and with no-one to play with anyway.
Best regards,
Pike.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 09:41 AM

Nice words but ...

a) Oleg IS quit about it for a lot longer than the mod-promoters are

b) cheaters get only banned if they're caught, but there were never before as many accusations of cheating against other players. How do you decide who's wrong and who's right?

IMHO the mods are not the danger, even the few cheats are not, but the idea that your opponent just shot you down because he cheated and nobody does anything against it, THAT is the real danger, not only for IL2, but beyond.

Pike

06-17-2008, 10:58 AM

Dear FF,
Could you just clarify what you mean here??

"a) Oleg IS quit about it for a lot longer than the mod-promoters are"

I don't quite understand the statement........do you mean Quiet about it....or does Quit mean annoyed?
Best regards,
Pike

LEXX

06-17-2008, 11:16 AM

Falke:: Even what you just posted, Lexx, that MG knew about the crack and didn't intervene is easily seen as a bad support for this game, incompetence from MG and 1C to handle such a situation and act accordingly. And after all the stuff that was given to us for free, is that really your message?
I'm not sure. Its something that I read on the forums so your guess or conspiracy theory is as good as anybody's. You will have to go back to re-read what I poasted before quoting me again at this forum. That seems to be a behavioral problem you are having with others as well, at least in this thread, and leaves others wondering what your "message" is.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 11:22 AM

*Quiet - Typo, sorry.

The mods-promoters just shout so loud and consistent in this thread, that nobody noticed it isn't locked yet and nobody was banned or warned.

Since nobody with a bit of common sense expects Oleg to officially promote the Mods anyway, it just can't get any better. Any further comment is just ole Luke Skywalker in a rusty bucket circling around a deserted Deathstar and nobody cares. IMHO it just takes the "glory" of this "rebellion" further away, nothing else.

That's why I posted before, that this thread has evolved to be absolutely pointless in any regard.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 11:26 AM

Falke::
I'm not sure. Its something that I read on the forums so your guess or conspiracy theory is as good as anybody's. You will have to go back to re-read what I poasted before quoting me again at this forum. That seems to be a behavioral problem you are having with others as well, at least in this thread, and leaves others wondering what your "message" is.

Your Quote from a page before: "Granted, it is said on the forums that Oleg knew about the hack several years ago, yet he did not prevent the hack from becoming widely used after the end of the sim's development."

As I said, it's not that difficult to interpret this comment as a direct critics on Oleg and his lack of ability to do something against it. I don't think you wrote that due to my behavioral problems? You surely had a message and I just asked myself what message was and how people interpret messages like that, quoted or originally written by yourself.

LEXX

06-17-2008, 11:48 AM

Falke:: As I said, it's not that difficult to interpret this comment as a direct critics on Oleg and his lack of ability to do something against it. I don't think you wrote that due to my behavioral problems? You surely had a message and I just asked myself what message was and how people interpret messages like that, quoted or originally written by yourself.
There are other interpretations. The most comedic was made by hysterical anti-mod anonymous public server players at the unmoderated ubi forums claiming that Oleg allowed the hack mods to "kill" FB to push customers to BoB And Beyond.

I found it funny since it would theoretically push a small minority of anonymous public server people to the new sim, leaving the private server players and the larger offline customer base to enjoy FB modding. The claim doesn't make sense, unless FB is purely an Online Pay-To-Play sim with no independent private servers. But then, these hysterical anonymous public server players always considered FB to be a pure Online sim with no independent private servers. So the claim *does* make sense when viewed with that fogged perspective.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 11:59 AM

Falke::
There are other interpretations. The most comedic was made by hysterical anti-mod anonymous public server players at the unmoderated ubi forums claiming that Oleg allowed the hack mods to "kill" FB to push customers to BoB And Beyond.

I found it funny since it would theoretically push a small minority of anonymous public server people to the new sim, leaving the private server players and the larger offline customer base to enjoy FB modding. The claim doesn't make sense, unless FB is purely an Online Pay-To-Play sim with no independent private servers. But then, these hysterical anonymous public server players always considered FB to be a pure Online sim with no independent private servers. So the claim *does* make sense when viewed with that fogged perspective.

Agreed, that's funny indeed and equally pointless.

LEXX

06-17-2008, 12:22 PM

I won't say it was pointless. Fruitless yes, obviously.

The Simhq FB forum restricted hackmod discussion to one (1) thread. Maybe that would be a working compromise here. I don't have membership on any modding forums, but obviously I enjoy poasting about Mod Theory.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 12:32 PM

Well, I think it's okay for SimHQ and there are a lot of other forums, where these things are not banned any longer. People who are interested in that will find it and that's okay with me.

On the other hand, you may call me an old-schooler, but to me it is a question of respect to not discuss mods on the official boards.

LEXX

06-17-2008, 12:44 PM

Well, that's why it would be a compromise. No mod discussion outside of the one thread, and any attempts to do so get snipped and the snippee pays a fair and balanced price.

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 12:52 PM

Well, that's why it would be a compromise. No mod discussion outside of the one thread, and any attempts to do so get snipped and the snippee pays a fair and balanced price.

Hm, that's exactly my message:
The way it is already IS a great compromise. What other crack is promoted so much in the open? What would it help to post that here, too, other than to have 1C, UBI and MG agree, that they can't do anything against it?

That's what I mean with respect. :(

Bearcat

06-17-2008, 01:34 PM

So what do you really want Bearcat?

Me? I want to fly as much as I can.. I wish I had more time in the day...

As for you.. well you can do what you want to. All I am saying is that the debate or the conversation or whatever you want to call it needs to shift from "Oooo look at all the pretty mods." "But they are hacks and illegal" "Are not" "Are too" "ARE NOT" "ARE TOO" to either just enjoying the sim or thinking of other things that might make the sim better... IMO it is a meaningless point how you or anyone else feels about the mods... because they are here.

LEXX

06-17-2008, 01:41 PM

Falke, it is an alternative to what you seem to be complaining about here. I could go either way.

Pike (last page):: Well, Like it or not it has certainly breathed new life into an older Sim and I suspect it will continue for some time yet.

One point though.....I think that given Oleg's resources and time constraints....now we have people all over the world simultaneously producing new maps etc which Oleg's team would have neither the time, people nor money to do in such a short timespan. I'm sure if he could have done them he would have eventually. If I were him I would just be quietly contented about my achievements and legacy......I can see one day in the future when there will be statues dedicated to him as the founder of modern flight sims if his work continues at this quality and rate.

I also don't quite understand the view on cheating, because you only play with your friends whom, I would have thought, would have no wish to cheat you. So any 'cheaters' would end up banned and with no-one to play with anyway.

Best regards,
Pike.

Mod cheating is a potential theoretic threat to anonymous public servers, especially to Newbies to the sim before they find friends to play with. However, as of now it seems the old rumours of the "online" sim's demise had been greatly exaggerated....so far...

Beautifully said Pike. Those are not just "nice words," you also help us prove false the idea that modders or mod users in general are insulting Oleg on the forums. Perhaps some are out of honest frustration or dishonest jealousy. I can see the breathing of new life into the sim. Looking at the simhq boards, it seems there are people buying the sim specifically with the intention of modding up -- as a replacement for EAW perhaps (not sure).

Feuerfalke

06-17-2008, 01:48 PM

The points presented in this discussions are all valid.

The crack is illegal. That's a fact - no debate will change that.

The mods are not illegal in general, but they won't be officially supported and some of them use copyrighted material.

The mods are there, nobody will change that either.

The peoples opinions will always be different and that is not meaningless.

So, to help you out of this, the only way to stop this debate once and for all would be to let this thread die and discuss it somewhere else. As you put it, there are the ones who just enjoy this sim and there are those who enjoy the mods.
Accordingly there is a forum for the mods and official forums for the game. If you really insist to discuss the mods here amongst people who may not like it, will I have your support when I start a thread at the mod-boards where we all keep reminding ourselves that the crack is illegal? Wouldn't that support your idea, too?

JG52Uther

06-17-2008, 04:17 PM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

proton45

06-17-2008, 06:53 PM

I wonder what the on-line population (growth or decline) has been sense the widespread use of "the mods" was introduced?

I understand the point of letting this thread die...and maybe no one will see this comment (LOL). And I was thinking about posting this on the "IL21946 population thread", but they seem to be on a way different trend of thought, so...

People have said that the mods have been good for "new" sales of IL2 1946, and yet if you are to believe the "stats" on the number of players "on-line" their seems to be a decrease (?) in participants...

I'm not trying to prove any point of view, I'm genuinely curious...

LEXX

06-17-2008, 07:18 PM

Proton:: People have said that the mods have been good for "new" sales of IL2 1946, and yet if you are to believe the "stats" on the number of players "on-line" their seems to be a decrease (?) in participants...

I'm not trying to prove any point of view, I'm genuinely curious...
Modding has created new "word of mouth" sales according to some forum statements, but beyond those statements we won't know if its enough to counteract normal decrease in sim sales near the end of the sim's life. Overall the playing population does not care about personal stats, anymore than people don't care to fill out census forms.

Most players play offline, or if online most play on servers far beyond the famous HyperLobby Stats. From looking at the depth of the AAA forum, I'd guess it takes some time to get up and running with that stuff. I would not expect most Newbies to immerse themselves into modding soon after sim purchase, except perhaps Old Timers from other sims who bought the sim as a moddable replacement for EAW for example, but they are not too many I assume. For most, the sim offers a steep enough learning curve out-of-box without messing around with unauthorized mod installs. However, I have learned to never underestimate the Passion of the computer gamer.

II.KG30_Morgi

06-17-2008, 07:51 PM

Kindergarten...sachmal merkt ihr es noch? Also echt ...schade um die Zeit die man verschwendet um das hier zu lesen!

Feuerfalke

06-18-2008, 06:15 AM

Kindergarten...sachmal merkt ihr es noch? Also echt ...schade um die Zeit die man verschwendet um das hier zu lesen!

Und noch mehr Zeitverschwendung sich dann auch noch daran zu beteiligen. Willkommen in unserer Krabbelgruppe. ;)

LEXX

06-18-2008, 08:24 AM

Falke:: Accordingly there is a forum for the mods and official forums for the game. If you really insist to discuss the mods here amongst people who may not like it, will I have your support when I start a thread at the mod-boards where we all keep reminding ourselves that the crack is illegal? Wouldn't that support your idea, too?
Yes, the mod boards are where the active community is now. If there were frequent detailed discussions of specific mods here, it might cause: "Oleg my mod don't work, plz fix game." But, no real mod discussion is found here except for the occasional Abstract Mod Theory discussions such as this thread. Since I myself don't use any mods, or Oleg's sim anymore, I can only abstractly theorize about modding in this sim.

You were offered an alternative in a friendly manner. Other than that, we can't help you.

fireflyerz

06-18-2008, 09:08 AM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

:arrow:He,he,he....Yeah , its a bit like that.:cool:

csThor

06-18-2008, 09:34 AM

This dicsussion reminds me of this ...

http://www.softwaremag.com/archive/2001feb/images/ChasingItsTail.jpeg

Bobb5

06-18-2008, 10:07 AM

To get it back on track, where the hell are all these mods people are talking about?
I do not have tackir so i cannot use that one. I understand there is a sound mod that helps you hear planes on your six? but bugger if he gets on your six, then hearing him is not exactly going to help, unless you can dodge 30mm cannon shells...
and as for the so-called speed mods they are easy to spot. And the day a Me 109 out turns my i16 then I will really be concerned.
Hope everything is back on track now.
And ps anything that makes a game play better is a good thing. Play Armed Assault and see the difference the sound mods make.
That said, I still do not know where to find them :)
And lastly online is different from offline. Offline you are modding your experience, online you are affecting other players. Most games have strict no-tamper policies in place online, punkbuster etc so why all the fuss. When you play online keep it standard, and when you go offline let your hair down.

LEXX

06-18-2008, 12:00 PM

Bobb:: To get it back on track, where the hell are all these mods people are talking about?
I do not have tackir so i cannot use that one. I understand there is a sound mod that helps you hear planes on your six? but...
Shucks, I don't even have sound on my computer. No speakers, nothing. I jam stereo. It helps me relax during the Dogfight. woof woof

Feathered_IV

06-18-2008, 01:49 PM

To get it back on track, where the hell are all these mods people are talking about? I do not have tackir so i cannot use that one. I understand there is a sound mod that helps you hear planes on your six?

That little exploit is built into the vanilla Il-2 game. You can try to dampen it's immersion killing effect by setting attenuation to 0 in your config.

Urufu_Shinjiro

06-18-2008, 08:15 PM

To get it back on track, where the hell are all these mods people are talking about?
I do not have tackir so i cannot use that one. I understand there is a sound mod that helps you hear planes on your six?

As others have said thats not a function of the sound mod, the sound mod people discuss was the first mod to come out and had improved engine and gun sounds, the mods have expanded far beyond that but everyone refers to the sound mod only cause that came out first. You can read about the mods at www.allaircraftarcade.com , and learn whats going on there and decide for yourself.

Jumo211

06-25-2008, 05:39 PM

Hello,

I would like to take a completely different standpoint on this whole mod issue that matter to me the most.
While we have also 15, 17, 20 year old guys around who may be enjoying photorealistic brand new spanking WW2 flight sim maybe thirty years from now , for those of us who are over 40 years old , clock is ticking , I may not be here thirty years from now , that's why I couldn't give the slightest damn anymore about the way AAA mods were incorporated in to the game .
What is out there ahead of me ? should I take it or not ? , hearing more realistic engine sounds or not ? craters , less and more realistic dust , new maps etc. ?
Answer is pretty clear for me , I am gonna live my sim to the fullest and will be enjoying any current and future immersion improvement that is not looking arcadish .
My point is , that when there will be someday finally some really @ss kicking WW2 flight sim , I may not be here to enjoy it , so who would blame me that I did take my chances with those AAA mods and am now truly happy .
Just to those younger fans here on this and Ubi and other forums , wait , hold on , stop crying , you may get to see brand new generation of WW2 sim toy to play with..... and your IL2-1946 game with or without AAA mods ? life goes on ......................
Believe me, some people are thinking just like me even if it may sound to some as a little bit extreme.

Bearcat

06-26-2008, 03:48 AM

FA_Cheech

06-26-2008, 11:11 AM

What BC said

Tree_UK

06-26-2008, 11:36 AM

I have separate installs of the sim, i use the stock one for online play and a modded one for single player, the mods are brilliant they add so much more to the sim and have brought it back to life, it is a shame however that Oleg and his boys didn't introduce some of these mods themselves. Maybe he could ask the boys who made these mods for some help and introduce them into 4.09. :)

proton45

06-26-2008, 07:46 PM

AFAIC the bottom line is this... These mods are good mods. I haven't tried all of them... No need .. but the ones I have tried are good mods.. and there is nothing I repeat NOTHING out there to top this sim. This sim stock out of the box is still the absolute best WWII combat flight sim made to date.. bar absolutely none. But these mods make it even better... and if it isn't for you then... no problem.. if it is for you then great.. but they are here and they are not going away. You can debate the "issue" till chickens play trumpets.. but in the end.. the mods will still be here.. For me they brought the sim to another level, which I didnt think was possible. The fact that there is not a bunch of rampant cheating online, at least not in the coops i fly in as often as I can, says something about the modders, the mods and the IL2 community in general. All the tension was because many f us , myself included expected the worse.. which never happened, we didn't get the cheats, we didn't get the chintzy mods, and we didn't get the BS mods. Most of the mods that I have seen, even if I didn't try them were practical mods. If you go to the mods Download section there arent a whole lot of nonsense mods.. just things to add flavor to the greatest sim to date. Oleg & 1C couldnt get to it.. NP... Some of those maps are great... and the fact that it builds on 1Cs work.. it is not another sim.. it is IL2 on steriods.. bring it on... I cant wait for BoB.. a whole new engine, better everything.. but i can still enjoy this sim... and I will.. AFAIC 1C gets my $$$ sight unseen for any flight sim they make until they produce a dud... but this one will always have a special place for me, and that place is made even more special by the recent mods.

I don't think that anyone has really disputed the quality of the mods, and I don't think anyone expects them to go away...

I respect your enthusiasm, and perhaps its do (in part) to your initial opposition to the "modding community"...but I don't think that the "virility of the modding community" means that the "modding scene" has to be made "legitimate" by incorporating the mods into future patches. The mods are already available for anyone who wants them...I don't think Oleg needs to waist anymore time on the subject.

Posted by Tree UK

I have separate installs of the sim, i use the stock one for online play and a modded one for single player, the mods are brilliant they add so much more to the sim and have brought it back to life, it is a shame however that Oleg and his boys didn't introduce some of these mods themselves. Maybe he could ask the boys who made these mods for some help and introduce them into 4.09.

LOL...funny stuff! :)

Bearcat

06-26-2008, 08:47 PM

I don't think that anyone has really disputed the quality of the mods, and I don't think anyone expects them to go away...

I respect your enthusiasm, and perhaps its do (in part) to your initial opposition to the "modding community"...but I don't think that the "virility of the modding community" means that the "modding scene" has to be made "legitimate" by incorporating the mods into future patches. The mods are already available for anyone who wants them...I don't think Oleg needs to waist anymore time on the subject.

Alright already........... point taken... and I agree with you... This is what.. the third time you have said the same thing in reference to nme based on one statement in this thread hinting @ incorporating thr mods.. I already said it I dont think it's going to happen and like you said it isn't really even necessary... So can you like... find another issue to press when you qwuote me... please... :P

Sunchaser

06-26-2008, 08:54 PM

So, when SOW gets here it is supposed to be user moddable for offline play with tools Oleg releases and with Oleg in control of what gets added, right?

What better way to beta test the potential problems such a system may encounter than to stand back and see what talented people can do with tools not officially released and in some cases not even IL2 tools?

Sure, some have trouble with some additional content, I have had a couple of glitches myself but in my case and in most cases it is the users mistake that messes things up and if it is a defect in the mod, those guys are all over the problem till it is solved.

If Oleg is not monitoring the mod site daily and with great interest, I would be very surprised.

And, credit to Oleg and his crew that a sim that was not intended to be modded by outside sources works so well with the mods. They surely built an amazing sim engine for the IL2 series.

Oleg, thanks for IL2 and bring on BOB/SOW, guaranteed sale here.