Plz convince me that I should get Poison Cloud and Gizmo

[trentjaspar]

Hi, all. I'm at Level 16 Paladin on Normal, have unlocked all four spirits, and have had the opportunity to obtain all Spirit skills, but I'm just not convinced that I should take Poison Cloud or Gizmo. I sense that it's just a matter of play-style, so I'd like to hear the proponents of these skills to "convince" me I should invest in it.

The main reason I don't like these skills is that I like to control and predict the battle as much as I can. Random = bad (obviously it can't be avoided, like damage ranges and %crit, etc.) But why add more randomness?

Specifically, sometimes I use a weak enemy to "block" a more powerful unit. I'd be dismayed to see Gizmo "help" me by killing him. Also, especially at the end of battles, I may try to keep a weak unit around so that I have time to rez troops and regain mana and rage. Again, I don't want Gizmo or Poison Cloud killing him off before I'm ready. I also don't want to have to avoid the Poison Cloud with my own troops for fear of taking losses-- thus my playing field is limited. I'm not playing a no losses campaign by the strictest definition, but I seek to avoid all losses and have only taken 1-2 since Darion, and maybe 10 total (including the tutorial).

Another 'benefit' of not getting them is that it limits the options for upgrades at level so I have a higher chance of getting the upgrade I seek.

Obviously, there would be times that these skills, particularly Gizmo, may provide a great boon at the perfect time. And I can see how mana spring on summoned thorns sitting under the poison cloud would be a great way to regain mana. But the unpredictability of these skills overall makes me want to avoid them.

But I'm open to hearing about why I might want to reconsider.

[Fatt_Shade]

Hello fellow KB player :-)
1) about your randomness comment : this whole game is random, every time you start new game everything is randomly placed - units, items, enemy troops . . . You know where you`re going, and what is at the end, but road to there is your choice and depending on what game gave you, not what you want. So randomness is part of charm of this game in my opinion.
2) percentages %, and number ranges are also great part of planing every move in battles in game. crit% , resistance% , and numbers initiative, dmg, HP, speed . . . So you should know all about your units and enemy to plan good battle with low loss.
3) this comment i`m not saying you should forget no loss play, but you said you play normal so try to get to know what everything do in game, and try no loss/low loss at hard diff lvl it is much more interesting and challenging to finish then on normal. I say this because normal you have fast rage spirits and hero advancement and much gold and relatively weak enemy troops, so play it to learn about game and what every unit /spell/skill can do. Later on higher diff lvl`s spirits/hero gain exp lvlup slower and you must calculate moves better to finish game at all, and not just breeze through it.
4) you didint mention are you playing normal game, or some mod, so i`ll just recommend this mod to try it ( it have better AI settings for gizmo, and changed some rage spirit skills to work to higher lvl`s, among many other tihngs changed and improved in my opinion) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29080
And finally about rage skills you asked about (for detailed info try to find file : game folder/data/data.kfs/slime.atom for Sleem skills / lina.atom for Lina skills):
Poison cloud : good at start , high dmg overall but totally unpredictable and unable to control. On high lvl it have great dmg and last long but all in all not worth it. As you mentioned stack of plants with magic shield and magic spring under it will generate huge amounts of mana for you, same goes if you use undead units, they will take low dmg from poison cloud but i dont think there is much use for it during whole game. On max lvl it makes 300-600 dmg, 13 times, for 16 rage, rest 3 turns.
Gizmo - unable to control same as cloud but have great option to resurrect units. It works on % like many other things in game, and if enemy unit in it`s radius higher leadership value than some of your units it will attack it, but if you cast it in background near your range troops and keep only 1 unit near enemy to block it while gizmo revive your lost units it will work great for you. Also in situations when you need to revive couple units for some amount it is better to have gizmo then cast 3-4 times resurrect spell for lots of mana. And gizmo is only way to heal black dragons in original game (not in mod i mentioned above). In end gizmo is a must for me, while is almost skip frozen orb and ice shards (Line is hardest spirit to lvlup because her skills make lowest amount of exp of all rage skills). On highest lvl gizmo make 1600-2500 dmg, heal 700 , 2 times, -1speed enemy/ +1 speed ally, act as dispel spell 3rd lvl, for 25 rage, rest 2.
So Gizmo is YES, Poison cloud is NO :-)

[trentjaspar]

Thanks, Fatt_Shade. You also responded to my inquiries from a few months' ago, LOL.

1) Yes, certainly there is a lot of randomness in the game and most of it is good (especially for replayability). But for planning a tactical battle, I prefer fewer random elements.
2) Yes, I certainly agree that knowing unit stats (allies and enemies) is key. I make frequent use of the community manual.
3) This will certainly be my only game of KB. It takes me way too long and have way too little play time-- although certainly this is in part because I try a no/low-loss campaign. But I've invested too much time in this game to consider playing again. I might try Armored Princess but not do low/no-loss.
4) I'm probably not looking to use a mod unless it's bugfix-only. The mod you cited has many changes and I prefer to trust the balance of the original game (although certainly a few units/items could be nerfed or enhanced).
- You make some good points about Gizmo. However, does it actually resurrect units, or just heal them? I had thought that it just healed. If it resurrects, then yes, placing the Gizmo in my back ranks would help while lowering the chance that it will kill an enemy I'm trying to keep alive. There are occasions that I would rather keep a debuff on my own unit (e.g., poison on a summoned thorn with Mana Spring) but these are rare instances.
- On the other hand, I use frozen orb almost every battle to prevent archers from attacking units and to distract enemies-- and of course to time it so I can roll over a very low initiative unit (e.g., Cyclops) or place it after enemies have acted. I also use Ice Shards, but not as often.
- Regarding Black Dragons, I thought that Shaman "Dancing Axes" can also heal Black Dragons. I don't have any Black Dragons, but do have Shamans.

So I think based on this, I do like Gizmo a little better than before. I still don't like extra randomness, but if it can resurrect units and I can influence it by placing it in the back, then I can see it being useful late in a battle to help rez/cleanup.

Thanks again for the discussion!

[Fatt_Shade]

Yes gizmo can res units.
As you said using frozen orb, it is good for blocking enemy archers but only ones with low initiative and cyclopes are really few in battles during whole game, and almost all other archer units have much higher initiative and harder to block more so if other flyers or fast units keep them protected.
For healing dragons dancing axes work but not on : plants, undead, mechanical units (cyclops and droids from crossworlds).
Glad to be of help, have fun and until they release KB-WotN :-)

[trentjaspar]

Yes gizmo can res units.
Well that automatically makes it worthwhile to consider. The document I read suggested that it could only Heal.

As you said using frozen orb, it is good for blocking enemy archers but only ones with low initiative and cyclopes are really few in battles during whole game, and almost all other archer units have much higher initiative and harder to block more so if other flyers or fast units keep them protected.
What does initiative have to do with blocking archers? As long as I go first and place the Orb down, they can't shoot around the Orb unless they can move to a free space away from the Orb. (Same for my totems.) In the first round, units are often tightly packed so they can't move away, especially if their Speed is only 2 as is the case with many archers. Beholders can be tougher to block, but even they tend to attack the Orb right in their face instead of attacking my actual troops.

Cyclopes are of course the best to target because the Orb can roll onto them before they attack, but you still have to worry about weak enemy units diving in front of the Orb to protect a powerful unit (I've seen it happen and I was impressed with the AI-- or maybe it was luck, LOL).

For healing dragons dancing axes work but not on : plants, undead, mechanical units (cyclops and droids from crossworlds).
Yes, I've often wished my dancing axes could heal my Royal Thorns. But it does help balance them, so I can't complain.

[Fatt_Shade]

Frozen orb and blocking i never used it since it play almost last every turn, i know to place it in front enemy range units, but never got interesting to do so since i almost always leave range units last , and orb have long rest time and it lowers already pathetic exp gain for Lina spirit :-(
For dancing axes i said if you use it on enemy undead/plant/cyclop will not heal your units. It need to make dmg on living target for heal to effect (or this is in some mod i played, i`m not sure now).
As for mod i mentioned, it is interesting to play, and since this game great feature is to replay it again with some different build and some self set restrictions (like i`m not using plants early game, or no dragons in army etc) so it gives me fun to try new mods other players made and trying to add some of my ideas/thoughts in them. I like to think as making game better, given that developers are really closed about new releases and patches so as players are mostly left to fend for our selves :-)

[trentjaspar]

Frozen orb and blocking i never used it since it play almost last every turn, i know to place it in front enemy range units, but never got interesting to do so since i almost always leave range units last
The Orb may attack last or almost last, but simply by being placed it did its job: to block archers from attacking my troops and to gather attention from other troops slowing their advance on my back ranks. Interesting, I am opposite from you: I almost always attack enemy range units first because I can't control (other than through Orb, Totem) whom they attack. [The exception is if they have a talent/ability that I don't want them to use and I don't want to "waste" my spell on Magic Shackles. Different play style, I guess. :-)

For dancing axes i said if you use it on enemy undead/plant/cyclop will not heal your units. It need to make dmg on living target for heal to effect (or this is in some mod i played, i`m not sure now).
Yes, I understood. I was agreeing and said it would be nice if it healed my thorns, but I understand from a balance perspective that it probably shouldn't. It's also more logical that way.

Cheers.

[Fatt_Shade]

I`m not really good with using Lina`s skill for battle since they give specific amount of exp comparing to other rage spirit skills that get much more exp depending of dmg they done. Lina on other hand lvlup slowly mostly on her passive skills. I mostly use her in first/second round and after that use other mass rage dmg skills and when Lina get rest most of enemy army is already decimated, and using Lina for rage get me only few exp points, not much of a gain. But as you said, different play style :-)

[MattCaspermeyer]

4) I'm probably not looking to use a mod unless it's bugfix-only. The mod you cited has many changes and I prefer to trust the balance of the original game (although certainly a few units/items could be nerfed or enhanced).

I did fix some bugs in the game with my mod, so you may find it interesting. True, there are a lot of changes in my mod, but you'll find that your game-to-game play will be dramatically different, marrying the wives and having children much more fun and interesting (plus 2 additional wives), and the strategies will require you to be very efficient with your turns as after a certain number of combat rounds, no skills / spells generate rage / mana and your troops become more tired at the drudgery of combat taking many turns.

Anyway, to be clear, Gizmo only resurrects in my mod and only heals in the stock game. Gizmo also gets an increase in its initiative and action points so that it can move earlier in combat (before it rarely used its capability to reduce enemy action points because the enemy almost always had moved before Gizmo) and move farther. Also Ice Ball has increasing initiative as well and so as it gets more powerful, it can move earlier in combat.

There are a lot of "flavorings" like this that enhance the game and make it more interesting.

It is good, though, to play the stock game first so that you can see how different your next play through is with a mod (if you have the time - I'm also very limited in my play time like you and so understand your rationale with wanting to stick with the stock game).

If you haven't checked out the video for my mod, though, you should take a look at it since it will show you a lot of the new features to see if you're interested...

/C\/C\

P.S. I'm also currently porting my mod to AP and CW so if you don't play my mod with TL maybe you'll be interested in playing it down the road when I get finished with it for AP and CW...

[trentjaspar]

Anyway, to be clear, Gizmo only resurrects in my mod and only heals in the stock game. Gizmo also gets an increase in its initiative and action points so that it can move earlier in combat (before it rarely used its capability to reduce enemy action points because the enemy almost always had moved before Gizmo) and move farther.
Ah, Gizmo only rezzes in your mod-- that's a huge distinction! I'm glad I didn't already get Gizmo. I'd rather upgrade the abilities I use. It's possible Gizmo might make more sense later when I have more troops with large HP (so that the healing is useful).

I did end up getting Poison Cloud because, when used carefully, it can help regain mana at the end of a fight, and I don't have any critical upgrades left to my other Sleem skills.

Always nice to hear from a modder-- thanks for replying.

[MattCaspermeyer]

You probably made a good choice with picking Poison Cloud because I found the stock Gizmo seriously lacking.

I'm actually currently working on the Gizmo routine in CW and the stock AI didn't really work very well there either.

I added a lot of "neat" descriptions to Gizmo when it uses its abilities (i.e. Gamma Destructo Ray or whatever its called when it attacks units), variable charges (i.e. in excess of 3, that animate its little "glowy" things on top of it properly), and figured since it was advanced technology, it should be able to not only heal but reanimate "primitive" tissue / creatures. I dramatically improved its AI, although I think I've made an even better improvement in the CW development (that will get rolled back in my TL mod eventually).

As far as Poison Cloud is concerned, the primary stock strategy for it is the way you're using it - it was effectively useless at damaging enemies. So I changed its capabilities in my mod making it more suited for what it was intended (i.e. damaging the enemy).

You'll find that my mod is replete with examples like this where I took what I thought were poorly implemented spells / unit / spirit abilities and made them more usefull.

Also the children give bonuses to units that you may not necessarily consider using and so I find that as I play my mod I use signficantly more units than I did when I played the stock game.

For example, if you marry Feanora, her human form gives bonuses to animals while her frog form gives bonuses to snakes, spiders, thorns, devilfish, dragonflies, and beholders. Her children draw mostly from the HOMM3 Fortress heroes and hence give more bonuses to snakes or dragonflies for example. You can also marry Diana (the River Fairy - she gives bonuses to forest creatures) and there is a new Orc wife (Orcelyn) to give bonuses to Orcs.

So if you have time in the future to play my mod, I think you'll enjoy it much more than the stock game!

/C\/C\

Ah, Gizmo only rezzes in your mod-- that's a huge distinction! I'm glad I didn't already get Gizmo. I'd rather upgrade the abilities I use. It's possible Gizmo might make more sense later when I have more troops with large HP (so that the healing is useful).

I did end up getting Poison Cloud because, when used carefully, it can help regain mana at the end of a fight, and I don't have any critical upgrades left to my other Sleem skills.

Always nice to hear from a modder-- thanks for replying.

[Elbyron]

The main reason I don't like these skills is that I like to control and predict the battle as much as I can. Random = bad (obviously it can't be avoided, like damage ranges and %crit, etc.) But why add more randomness?
They may seem random, but there is a little bit of predictability with these two rage skills. Gizmo will ignore friendly units that don't need healing, or who only need a little bit of healing: less than 1/3rd of Gizmo's healing power. Once it reaches level 3 or 4 Healing skill, Gizmo can also target friendly units that have a negative spell on them, or who have no movement points left (a huge bonus since your unit could attack again). All enemy units within 5 spaces are also valid targets. Gizmo likes to move, and will switch to a new target even when currently over one with a probability of 66%. If the current target is the only one it can reach, it will only move away (toward the nearest other target) with a 33% chance. And if Gizmo has nobody below it, you know its going to move to the closest valid target. So yes, there is some randomness, but knowing a few details of the algorithm - thanks to the Russian fan manual - can help you make better use of Gizmo.

Poison cloud is even easier to predict. It moves 1 space in the direction that has more enemy unit stacks - but seems to only consider those within 2 spaces, with 50% more weight given to directly adjacent units. The manual says an adjacent space gets 1.5 points of weight assigned for having a unit on it (regardless of size or level) plus 1 point for each of its adjoining spaces that have a unit. When weighting is equal for 2 directions, the cloud generally tries to move upward and to the right. Knowing this can really help you prevent the cloud from hitting your own units when you don't want it to.


Specifically, sometimes I use a weak enemy to "block" a more powerful unit. I'd be dismayed to see Gizmo "help" me by killing him. Also, especially at the end of battles, I may try to keep a weak unit around so that I have time to rez troops and regain mana and rage. Again, I don't want Gizmo or Poison Cloud killing him off before I'm ready.
This is the main reason I don't like these two skills. At least Gizmo only lasts for 3 turns (though any turns spent just moving without healing/hitting don't count). The poison cloud lasts too long and can wipe out that final weak stack that you want to keep alive.


Another 'benefit' of not getting them is that it limits the options for upgrades at level so I have a higher chance of getting the upgrade I seek.

Very true. I only took Gizmo on the hopes that I'd get its healing to level 4, and be able to add valuable AP points to my units. And I'm in no hurry to upgrade any of Lina's other skills, so it seems worthwhile to accept Gizmo. But with Sleem, I regret taking poison cloud as I could have had more Shoal & Glot upgrades.

As for Lina having poor experience gain, I've found her easier to increase than the Reaper. Her abilities all start out giving 20 base experience per use (30 for the shards) and most improvements add +5 more experience per use. Whereas the Reaper only gets 7 base experience for the starting Soul Drain ability, and it only goes up by 2 with each damage enhancement. Rage drain and black hole also offer fairly skimpy base experience. Of course, this is just the base amount and there is the killing bonus to consider, which is an additional amount of experience equal to 1.8% of the leadership of the killed units (up to a certain max based on spirit's level). With enough upgrades, the Reaper's skills can do some pretty significant damage so I guess that will help later on, but at least initially I found Lina easier to level up.