The armament of the LaGG3 S4

[Koenig67]

I would like to point out what I believe to be an error in the armament of the LaGG3 S4.
Originally the LaGG3 was to be armed with the Taubin MP-6 23mm gun.
However the recoil of this weapon proved to be 2.5 times greater then expected, something that besides playing an important role in the arrest end execution of the designers, caused early LaGGs to be armed with a third 12.7 mm gun firing though the propeller's hub.
So early in its career the plane had 2x7.62mm and 3x12.7mm guns.
This can be seen in many photographs.
Starting from the fouth batch, one UBS 12.7 mm was replaced with a 20mm ShVAK (actually some planes had the earlier armament, pending the availabily of 20mm guns).
However in order to save weight with the installation of the 20mm gun LaGG3s were no longer fitted with the starbord 12.7 mm gun.
This is quoted in Lavochkin's Piston-Engined Fighters (Gordon), Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War Vol.I (Gordon and Khazanov) and LaGG Fighters in Action (Stapfer).
I checked several pics of LaGG3s from the aforementioned books, and I could not find any with the 20mm gun and that showed the starbord 12.7 mm UBS. On the other end I found two pics of LaGG3 S4 fitted with the nose 20mm where the starbord hole for the 12.7mm was clearly closed - and none of a 5 weapons LaGG3 with the 20mm.
If we consider that later LaGG3s had only the 20mm and the port 12.7mm and that in the summer 1941 Russian engineers were desperately trying to reduce weight on a very unsatisfactory LaGG3, it makes sense to believe that the correct armament of the LaGG3 S4 was 2x7.62mm, 1x12.7mm and 1x20mm.
It would be very easy to correct.

Best regards

Koenig

[Grach]

Series 4 aircraft produced in Leningrad had the two 12,7mm synchronised Berezin. Those produced elsewhere had one removed. The Leningrad aircraft only went to one 12,7mm BS gun when the Series 8 production was introduced which also saw the removal of the pair of ShKAS. So the in game Series 4 is not incorrect, it is just perhaps incomplete. Things are made murky by unit armourers removing weapons too.
Also, Series 1 aircraft did not mount a synchronised Berezin firing through the hub. The weapon was an unsynchronised BK nominally designed for wing mountings. UB 'family' was perfected a little later, most early war production aircraft had the not fully developed BS & BK versions of 12,7mm guns.

I'd like to see the LaGGs redone. There are some quite interesting options available.

[Koenig67]

Thank you for your reply, Grach.
Here's Yefim Gordon's quote on Leningrad production of LaGG-3s from his "Lavochkin's piston-engined fighters".
"Series production of the LaGG-3 in Leningrad did not last long. The precipitous advance of the German troops towards the city on the Neva river necessitated a speedy evaquation of the plant to Novosibirsk.... In all plant No. 23 built only 65 fighters, and the remaining, uncomplete airframes were used for repairing LaGG fighters in the besieged Leningrad" .
It doesn't mention which batches of the LaGG fighter were produced in Leningrad, anyway if the author is right the number of LaGG-3 S4 armed with 2x12.7 mm should be very small compared to the overall production. And probably also if the author is not right, as I don't think the majority of LaGG-3 S4 were produced in besieged Leningrad.

I agree, it would be nice having some early LaGG-3s. I think post-1941 models are well represented, but the same can't be said for the early variants.
Here's a list of suggestions, not meant to be exhaustive:

S1: 2x7.62 mm + 3 x 12.7 mm. Engine M-105P (starved of fuel on negative Gs). Serious longitudinal instability

S2: As above, instability solved by applying counterweights (It is not clear from my sources if counterweights were applied to S1, S2 or S3)

S4: As above, armament 2x7.62 mm + 1 x 12.7 mm + 1 x 20mm.

S4: Fitted with the M-105PA (Able to stand negative Gs)

S8: As above, Armament 1 x 12.7 mm + 1 x 20mm.

By the way I suspect the planes built in Leningrad had the M-105P, so the LaGG-3 S4 we currently fly should suffer from negative Gs.

These are planes that fought in the (many) hundreds, and it's a pity they are out of the game.
I'm sure the list can be corrected or augmented.
I've read enough aviation books not to take as Gospel whatever I read, I'd be glad to know your opinion about it: I don't speak Russian and I undestand the importance of reading books and documents in the native language of the plane studied.

Then there are other factors when thinking about LaGGs: the uneven quality of the Delta-wood finish on production aircraft; the costant weight increase as production quality deteriorated owing to expantion and relocation of the plants; murky glass and virtually unjettisonable canopy that convinced most pilots to fly with the canopy open (when it was not removed altogether).
All the above factors had a considerable impact on the performances of the planes used at the front, but I understand quantifying them is like opening the proverbial can of worms. I'd be happy to have "ideal" LaGG-3s.

[Treetop64]

Cool thread. Some good info here.

The LaGG-3 is actually one of my favorite aircraft of WWII, despite it's less-than-favorable reputation. When built well and to specifications it was a good airplane, though a bit underpowered, with very good armament. One of the things I appreciate about the LaGGs is it's method of construction. Despite the materials used, the way it was built was actually way ahead of it's time. Many modern aircraft are built in a similar way, but instead of layers of treated "delta wood" they are made with layers of carbon fiber.

Sorry, didn't meant to hijack! Back to topic. :)

[Koenig67]

You are welcome, Treetop64.
Actually I doubt that if you founded a LaGG-3 fan club you would find many enthusiasts.
It was never a very popular plane, even if the last S66s could more than hold their own against the best German fighters down low.
It's a plane that certainly has a merit: it was - to my knowlege - the only successful wooden fighter of WW2.
If only it had a better powerplant...it would have been a La-5!
You praise the plane for its heavy armament, which was certainly useful when attacking bombers or ground strafing, but the Russian pilots must not have shared your view when dogfighting Bf-109s, so the plane was stripped of the heavy armament by late 1941, with the introduction of the S8.
From a historical point of view it was an interesting and important plane.

A piece of interesting information from the usual source (Gordon).
In 1941 a total of 2,463 LaGG-3s were produced: 1,659 in Gor'kiy, 474 in Taganrog, 265 in Novosibirsk, and 65 in Leningrad.
Leningrad built LaGGs were 2.63% of the grand total - and it's the only 1941 LaGG-3 we have in the game.
I hope some good soul will consider the idea of re-working the early variants of this plane.

[Woke Up Dead]

I like the '42 and '43 LaGGs, their performance is inferior to contemporary German fighters, but not by as much as most opponents think, so it often surprises online enemies. The current S4 version is definitely a dog though, I wouldn't mind losing some of those guns to boost flying performance a bit.

[gaunt1]

I agree, we would need at least one additional early LaGG-3 variant.

Later LaGG-3 models are overmodeled ingame. The S66 is almost equal to a Yak-9 1942 model, and definitely better than a Yak-1 and any Yak-7.

[Treetop64]

I agree, we would need at least one additional early LaGG-3 variant.

Later LaGG-3 models are overmodeled ingame. The S66 is almost equal to a Yak-9 1942 model, and definitely better than a Yak-1 and any Yak-7.

It's not a stretch to call something better than a Yak-1 (unless you're talking about the Yak-1B) or Yak-7.

[DKoor]

It's not a stretch to call something better than a Yak-1 (unless you're talking about the Yak-1B) or Yak-7.

Yak-7 is also a dog, while Yak-7B 1942 model is performance fighter one of the better for year 1942 but while it can hold it's own even vs 109G2 is not really his serious match.

[1984]

it's a fact, need to correct all lagg's and give to us some very important series (mainly, "early", like 8 and 11 for 41-42, vs f-2,4)...

and "early" lagg's with other 37mm guns be good too...


S1: 2x7.62 mm + 3 x 12.7 mm.

S8:

i fly on s1,8,11 in online war - s1 with 3xUB=saw:), i mean "пила", and s8-11 it's not bad vs friedrich...


Later LaGG-3 models are overmodeled ingame.

in tests all lagg'43-44 (s66 and other, i think after s35) have 532-545 km/h at SL...

so, maybe need some series after s35 and before s66...

and in some books write, what some s66 could have second BS... if this true, cannon (160 rounds, sometimes other ammo boxes) + 2 BS (200 per gun) + 545 km/h = not bad, i think...:)

[tovarisch_Ko]

S8: As above, Armament 1 x 12.7 mm + 1 x 20mm.

machine guns of ShKAS weren't established about the 70th plane of 10 series

Fuel:
1-6 series 405 kg
7-10 series 340 kg
11 (sept. 41)-28 series 260 kg
29-66 series 340 kg

M-105PA - 7 series (aug. 41) first plane №3121715 (type 31 plant № 21 15th plane of 7 series)

It doesn't mention which batches of the LaGG fighter were produced in Leningrad, anyway if the author is right the number of LaGG-3 S4 armed with 2x12.7 mm should be very small compared to the overall production. And probably also if the author is not right, as I don't think the majority of LaGG-3 S4 were produced in besieged Leningrad.

In Leningrad didn't let out planes of 4 series.
Concept "series" LaGG-3 mentioned in all sources belongs only plant № 21
Other plants had other numbering of series
And considerably differed in technology

[1984]

about lagg-3 with ns-37...

here (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/lagg3-34.html) - 30 декабря 1942 года постановлением ГКО пушку НС-37 приняли на вооружение вместо орудия Ш-37.

В 1942 году завод 21 построил 15 ЛаГГ-3 с пушками НС-37, получивших обозначение "тип 33".

В связи с переходом завода 21 на выпуск Ла-5, последующее производство противотанковых ЛаГГ-3 осуществлялось в Тбилиси. Сколько их построили, установить не удалось.

from great Rodionov's Chronology (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/academic/harrison/aviaprom/) (Version 9, updated 9 December 2012, now text is more on 26%) - 22 декабря 1942 вышел приказ Командующего ВВС N 114 о войсковых испытания ЛаГГ-3 с пушкой ОПБ-16 37 мм (757,4).

ОПБ-16 37 мм=ns-37...

Объект испытаний: с-т ЛаГГ-3 М-105ПФ постройки з-да № 21 1943 г.

В отличие от серийного с-та ЛаГГ-3
- установлена пушка ОКБ-16 калибра 37 мм с б/к 36 патронов вместо пушки ШВАК кал. 20 мм

- УБС с б/з в 170 патронов оставлены без изменений

Вес пушки - 150 кг, темп стрельбы - 240-250 в/мин, вес установки на с-т - 35 кг, вес патрона - 1,6 кг, вес снаряда 0,702 кг. Вес боевомплекта - 63 кг. Общий вес пушечного вооружения - 250 кг.

Войсковые испытания проведены в 21 иап согласно приказу командования ВВС № 114 от 22 февраля 1942 г. и № 089 от 26 апреля 1943 г.

За период испытаний с 21 апреля по 5 июня 1943 г. выполнено 174 с/в, из которых 71 были боевыми

well, this quote from report says what number of shells for lagg-3 with ns-37 was 36 for ns-37 and 170 for UBS and these laggs was tested in 43...

in 4.09 22/220 like for SH-37, so, i think need to fix this...

and my opinion, maybe, need give different belts "only AP", "2 HE + 1 AP", "1 HE + 1 AP" (i not saw docs about type of shells in ammunition belt for these laggs, it's just like for yak-9t, later about this)...

next...

mainly, all sources said what lagg-3 with ns-37 it’s around 34 or 35 serie, and, maybe, planes could have bomb racks (photo attached + here (http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/lagg3-37/lagg3-37.htm) photos and good info from russian sources on english, by Massimo Tessitori)...

and on photos we see what, maybe, in game lagg-3 IT have wrong gun barrel...

for reference, if these laggs was produced on 21 plant, last serie of this plant, which i found, it's was 37 - "26 мая 1943 на 21 заводе была авария ЛаГГ-3 N 31213742 с М-105 N 10524 (2129)."

so, if all this true, maybe later need give to "lagg-3 IT" and new name, bomb racks for fuel tanks or bombs, other gun barrel and, likely, performance...