Correct Aircraft Service Years and Numbers

[5./JG27.Farber]

Hello.

Can anyone tell me when the following aircraft entered service in any great numbers? Ive tried looking it up but its kind of sketchy.

Hurricane DH 5-20 (I?)
Hurricane Rotol (Ia?)

Spitfire I
Spitfire Ia
SpitfireIIa

109 E1
109 E3
109 E3b
109 E4
109 E4b

110 C4
110 C7

Many thanks.

[csThor]

E-1 - production began in January 1939
E-3 - production began in late 1939
E-4 - production began in spring 1940 (with the great majority of previous versions being re-equipped with MG-FF/M and relabeled E-4)

In August 1940 the majority of subtypes were already of the E-4 and E-1 type.

[5./JG27.Farber]

E-1 - production began in January 1939
E-3 - production began in late 1939
E-4 - production began in spring 1940 (with the great majority of previous versions being re-equipped with MG-FF/M and relabeled E-4)

In August 1940 the majority of subtypes were already of the E-4 and E-1 type.

Post 1000 :-P

Ermm year but just becasue they are in production doesnt mean they are on the front.

So in the BoB they were generally E1 and E4 then?

[csThor]

Correct. There were only 250 E-4 produced in factories but there were a lot more "in the field" since the earlier versions were reequipped and relabeled as E-4. I think Kurfy had some hard numbers on E-1 v s E-3 vs E-4, but I can't find it ATM.

[5./JG27.Farber]

So really its impossible to say when retrofitted aircraft and how many where in front line service... - This will be why I can't find the dates!

Nuts.

Ok what about the allies?

[_79_dev]

So in the BoB they were generally E1 and E4 then?


This forum has lots of info

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/battle-britain-raf-lw-order-battle-29674.html

[bolox]

hurri production- should be detailed enough;)
http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

spit production- not quite so good on dates
http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/production.htm

spitII
http://spitfiresite.com/2012/01/spitfire-mk-ii-details.html

[NZtyphoon]

hurri production- should be detailed enough;)
http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

spit production- not quite so good on dates
http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/production.htm

spitII
http://spitfiresite.com/2012/01/spitfire-mk-ii-details.html

Spitfire IA was retrospectively applied to Spitfires with 8 x .303s when the Hispano IB - started trials with 19 Sqn in July 1940; before that all were Spitfire Is.
First Spitfire I in service was the third off the production line:

K9789 Ia 3 EA MII 19S Duxford 4-8-38 intensive service trials 4MU VA stripped for detailed exam MMO rep 11-9-39 9MU 10-1-40 65S 27-2-40 8MU 5-7-40 PRU 11-7-40 FACA 1-8-40 57OTU 28-11-40 FAAC 13-1-41 Westland 33MU 19-5-41 61OTU 22-11-41 FACB 7-4-42 ros 45MU 14-12-42 to 359M 14-12-44 2SoTT SOC

http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p001.htm

[5./JG27.Farber]

So there was only Spit I until July 1940 then they became the Spit Ia? The difference is the prop pitch isnt it? But you mention cannons.

[bolox]

1/1a is purely naming convention to differentiate them from the 1b cannon armed spits, so at a stroke of a pen spit 1 became 1a.
CSP modification is not related to mark #, rather part of ongoing improvements program, but as the 2 occurred at ~ the same time.....

[41Sqn_Banks]

The ingame Spitfire I has the DH 2 pitch propeller and the Spitfire IA a has a Rotol propeller with constant speed unit.
Both were in service alongside already in 1939, however those Spitfires with DH propellers were modified to constant speed unit right before the BoB.

[5./JG27.Farber]

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/statistics/gob.htm

This site is very good. Unfortunatley it doesnt show the sub types of the Emil.

[VO101_Tom]

...

sorry for OT. Farber, your PM box is full, pls delete some messages...

[bolox]

Quote:
Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and some more info from Kurfust,

Quote:
I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7.

and,

Quote:
In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september (10th iirc, fenrirs got my copy at the moment so can't check), and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit.

from this thread
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,23678.12.html

[fruitbat]

i recognise that post:-P, quoted from myself from here, over at SAS, lol.

The original post by me is in the fm/dm section here somewhere when i was somewhat irked that only the E3 at the time was in game.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Great information Bolox,

The losses table is good however misleading as its on a piece of the puzzle.

So it seems that in the BoB as thor said before its really E1 and E4 with fewer E3 overall. Thats very interesting.

[Kurfürst]

E-1 - production began in January 1939
E-3 - production began in late 1939
E-4 - production began in spring 1940 (with the great majority of previous versions being re-equipped with MG-FF/M and relabeled E-4)

In August 1940 the majority of subtypes were already of the E-4 and E-1 type.

Both E-1 and E-3 entered production in late 1938. 15 E-1s and 153 E-3s were delivered by 31 December 1938.

The E-4 production started in the spring of 1940, I can't find the production start date but by 30 June 1940 203 E-4s were delivered. By end of October, totals were: 250 E-4, 20 E-4/N, 211 E-4/B, 15 E-4/B (601N). In addition, practically all E-3 was converted to E-4.

E-7 production started somewhere around July-August 1940, and the machine first saw action towards late August in small numbers, and 186 were delivered by the end of October 1940.

By 30 June 1940 844 E-1s (production ceased, only another 50 or so were delivered afterwards), 1136 E-3s (production stopped and no more were delivered afterwards except for 75 for export) and 203 E-4s, and 29 E-5s (DB 601N) were delivered.

110C-4 production begun in May-June 1940 and 155 were delivered by September 1940.
110C-7 production begun in July 1940 and 39 were delivered by September 1940.
(via Mankau-Petrick)

[NZtyphoon]

So there was only Spit I until July 1940 then they became the Spit Ia? The difference is the prop pitch isnt it? But you mention cannons.
The designation had nothing to do with prop pitch - starting in July 1940 19 Squadron was equipped with several modified Spitfires armed with a single 20mm Hispano in each wing; to differentiate them from the standard 8 x .303 Spitfires they were called Spitfire Ib, while the standard model was redesignated Ia. The experiment was unsuccessful because the Hispanos kept on jamming, to the extent that 19 Sqn asked for and got some ex OTU Mk Ias - they were wrecks but the guns fired properly.

At about the same time all Spitfire and Hurricane de H 2 pitch propellers were modified to constant-speed units http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1943/1943%20-%202888.html.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Just bumping this thread as I realised the percentiles for red of spits/hurris was nevery discovered.