Oleg and Team.

[GOZR]

Well here a question that will probably hard to answer but i have to say.

Oleg I'm not playing with IL2 for quite some time and the question i want to ask is .. Why the peoples working to modify IL2 do a much much better work then your team ?


I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools.

S~

[Al Schlageter]

It is always easier to mod something than when starting from scratch.

[proton45]

Why do you need to say this? I really do want to know...

Oleg and his team have made the best WW2 flight combat sim ever. The game wouldn't exist without them...

Whats your beef?

[Viking]

A Troll! Please ignore.

Viking

[Robert]

What an asshat.

If you're not playing IL2 for some time then how do you know the quality of the hacks?

Why is he doing it? Because he's a baby. He couldnt get Oleg to make the sounds HE wanted so he's throwing a tantrum. If Oleg did release his desired improvements, but 1C had to charge for them he'd still bitch.

Quite poor form GOZR. Actually hiding behind the anonimity of the internet to make a comment like that is quite pussyish.

[GOZR]

Mais biensure mon p'tit Robert ..
There are some differences in Playing, testing , creating ... ;)
Sounds ? what sounds..

I say that the Moders are doing a fantastic work.

And it is a superior work then almost all the original maps.

For such a long time we have heard that it was impossible etc..
I'm just observing and it's incredible.
I needed to say this because it is breath taking and needed to share.

S~

[Avimimus]

*cough* GOZR, if you want to be banned you can just say so, most likely Evgeny will assist.

Yes, Oleg is imperfect. Yes, the modders have made some simple improvements that were overlooked by the core team. But this sim, this set of standards far above what a purely profit oriented motive would provide, this dedication to consulting with the community... this would not be without him. He is a light in the world of simming.

Would you deny these things?

[proton45]

Lame...

[csThor]

Gozr take off the pink-tainted glasses. There's a "technically impossible" and a "commercially not possible". I give you three milliseconds to find out which "impossible" Oleg was talking about. :roll:

[Chivas]

Unbelievable poor taste GOZR....

Oleg's team had many more maps to make in a short time and guidelines to follow that made these maps useable for most players at the time.

[Robert]

Mais biensure mon p'tit Robert ..
There are some differences in Playing, testing , creating ... ;)
Sounds ? what sounds..

I say that the Moders are doing a fantastic work.

And it is a superior work then almost all the original maps.

For such a long time we have heard that it was impossible etc..
I'm just observing and it's incredible.
I needed to say this because it is breath taking and needed to share.

S~

I'll tone down my rhetoric. I type before i think way too much.

Honestly GOZR, what you claim to be "sharing" was nothing of the sort. To toss in an underhanded insult was something I never expected from you. It was in very poor form.

nuff said by me. apologies for my immaturity.

[LEXX]

Ya, very poor taste, but nobody here can totally refute Gozr's claim, and none have done so. Computer gamers have traditionally been better at creating gaming content than game developers who are best at creating game engines. The new upper level cloud layers look great in some screenshots I saw here recently.

However, I'd say it with better taste. Like thanking Oleg for the fantastic game engine without which no modding would be possible.

[Old_Canuck]

Well here a question that will probably hard to answer but i have to say.

Oleg I'm not playing with IL2 for quite some time and the question i want to ask is .. Why the peoples working to modify IL2 do a much much better work then your team ?


I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools.

S~

Some of us migrated to this forum to get away from this kind of crap. Gozr, I've seen better posts from you back at the zoo. Thanks for the visit but please come back when you can't stay so long.

[Lo0n]

Ya, very poor taste, but nobody here can totally refute Gozr's claim, and none have done so. Computer gamers have traditionally been better at creating gaming content than game developers who are best at creating game engines. The new upper level cloud layers look great in some screenshots I saw here recently.

However, I'd say it with better taste. Like thanking Oleg for the fantastic game engine without which no modding would be possible.

+1 modding can only be as good as the engine the dev's created.
modded maps may be good but... without olegs work there wouldn't be anything. stock still provides ample opportunity to be bounced while enjoying the view.

[6S.Maraz]

Computer gamers have traditionally been better at creating gaming content than game developers who are best at creating game engines.

This thing is very common, see what happened with the "Silent Hunter III" game: it was an unfinished game full of bugs, the modders made it a completely new, amazing game. Without the modders, Silent Hunter would be now forgot, instead it is still selling (I got my copy and started to play this sim few months ago).

The reasons are many, the most important ones are that game developers have a tight schedule (game must be ready and tested for a given date), they have limited manpower (limited investment), and also of course they are doing everything (game engine, models, maps, etc) so nothing can be neglected in favour of something other. Instead, modders can invest their time as they like, maybe work 20 hours one day and then leave the work for a month, and also each one can concentrate on the things he likes best (Skins, 3D models, maps, effects, etc....), and not other aspects of the game.

So that is NOT because modders are better than 1C team (who worked in an excellent way to make a sim that has lived much longer than any expectations, and is still the best one in flight sims after many years), only that they are working in a different way to achieve different results.

It's a very normal thing, I cannot say really why some people are so upset about that.

Maraz

[Feuerfalke]

I think there are a lot of aspects to think about.

SH3 is a very good example for an excellent mod. The same is true for OpenFalcon, which exceeded the original engine by far. But both games are primarily played offline and there is no real competition in either games.
But then again you'll have to look at Falcon4:AF. There are a lot of people playing this game especially online, but the options to change things was drastically reduced to give a solid basis.
Same is for CFS3 and many other games. Infact Lock On is one of the few successfully played online games, that can be modded to a larger extend, but the players are very dedicated and even then, there are a lot of black sheep on the servers.

And to the modding qualities? Well, it's pretty obvious that modders are far superior to developers - at least by pure number! And as 6S.Maraz said, they don't have a schedule to finish their mods. Even better, they can look at the work done by the programmers, use the data and structure to add their own sniplets.

So, while I still really much enjoy some of the screenshots or options presented, I don't loose the touch to reality. Most if not all successful online-games are locked against ANY mods. Most of them even use Punkbuster or similar tools to detect and ban programs like Teamspeak-Overlay, Log-Analyzing, Keyboard-reprogramming and macro-generating, ping variation, package loss, etc.

We will have the ability to add content to SoW and that is IMHO a great offer of 1C towards the mod(el)ers and skinners out there. But I'm still convinced that IL2 was not were it is now, if it was as open as the CFS-series.

[crazyivan1970]

Lamest post in the history of this forum. Didnt expect that from you Gozr. Sad.

[GOZR]

Well i've wrote this with a bit of a strong point .. to wake up some and I agree... quite a bit shocking isn't it.. ;)

To say it's lame well this is a matter of opinion.
The forum was filled with request to fix and redesign textures, cockpits etc..
But we always got an answer that it was impossible .. time.. etc..
Even some really false answers, we also have some maps designer telling that they did the maps quick, rushed and that the engine was very limited .. basicly blaming themself of how bad the engine was.
For Oleg i agree he did what many wouldn't do and we are thanksfull for it , The programmers did a fantastic job with this limited physical engine we are agree but here is what i see the problem it's on the design team, textures etc.. I agree that to have a close sim saved Il2 of destruction but i see also a very good wish from Moders that want just to fix re-textures and maps.. This add so much more to this old sim and suddenly look so much better the last Slovakia map is a typical example of a very well done designed map.

I really suggest Oleg to go into this forum of moder or even contact them to take the best of their works and add it into a new release of 4.09.. why not .. it is so worth it.

Oleg can receive all the help he can get , ask and receive on an heart beat .
Like i say above the moder did what was suppose to be impossible and it is outstanding and Oleg should really take advantage of this for the good of all of us and close the sim for BOB..

But remember guys i love you all .. we are a last breed even Yvan ;)
( Sorry for my rush writing but my 10 months old baby is pulling my leg while writing this and i have to go play now.. )

[csThor]

GOZR ... really. Switch off the PC and take a walk. Are you honestly suggesting that Oleg should retroactively condone the hacking of the file protection by embracing what other people made of it? :roll:

This is out of question - you know the term "precedence"? It's irrelevant if the folks at AAA made a marvelous world map which runs on a 286 SX 20 with 70fps at full settings. Oleg cannot take anything from this source or he'd basically sanction the actions of some goons who hacked the code. What kind of message is this? Which publisher would want to cooperate with such a development studio if they condoned what essentially goes against their own interests? And what would 1C say, which is the company that hands out Oleg's paycheck?

Sweet sookie! :roll:

[proton45]

Well i've wrote this with a bit of a strong point .. to wake up some and I agree... quite a bit shocking isn't it.. ;)

To say it's lame well this is a matter of opinion.
The forum was filled with request to fix and redesign textures, cockpits etc..
But we always got an answer that it was impossible .. time.. etc..
Even some really false answers, we also have some maps designer telling that they did the maps quick, rushed and that the engine was very limited .. basicly blaming themself of how bad the engine was.
For Oleg i agree he did what many wouldn't do and we are thanksfull for it , The programmers did a fantastic job with this limited physical engine we are agree but here is what i see the problem it's on the design team, textures etc.. I agree that to have a close sim saved Il2 of destruction but i see also a very good wish from Moders that want just to fix re-textures and maps.. This add so much more to this old sim and suddenly look so much better the last Slovakia map is a typical example of a very well done designed map.

I really suggest Oleg to go into this forum of moder or even contact them to take the best of their works and add it into a new release of 4.09.. why not .. it is so worth it.

Oleg can receive all the help he can get , ask and receive on an heart beat .
Like i say above the moder did what was suppose to be impossible and it is outstanding and Oleg should really take advantage of this for the good of all of us and close the sim for BOB..

But remember guys i love you all .. we are a last breed even Yvan ;)
( Sorry for my rush writing but my 10 months old baby is pulling my leg while writing this and i have to go play now.. )


Well I guess that shows them... I guess they should have done what you wanted.

[GOZR]

I know all this ...

We can have a solution.. Just a matter or finding it..
What it is possible to do and not to do ?.. There is this HUGE help that many can provide and participate to this great WW2 sim.

A Solution with out been close minded .. why not going toward a discussion on finding teh best way for all.

We can move mountains when we are unified and working together...

[Jughead]

I'm not a programmer or hacker or a modder, but from what I've seen what has been changed with the hacks are easy things compared to the whole of the program. But to be honest I have asked myself the same question.
Oleg has another product to sell, with fewer planes and fewer maps. Why make an old great game even greater when it could get him less sales of the newer product. The only plus for Oleg in this is that the online confidence has been breached. One reason I wonder who really hacked this game. That said, the hack ain't much without the program.

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Lamest post in the history of this forum. Didnt expect that from you Gozr. Sad.

No that honor is reserved for HFC_Dolphin and his 'facebook' site.

[Bearcat]

While the rightness or wrongness of Gozr's post is indeed debateable... that there is some good stuff coming from AAA there is no question. That is a fact. I don't know about any of the other mod communities... and I am still flying mod free... but some of the stuff coming from AAA is good. A lot of it is good.

I just hope that Oleg takes whatever code for the "wingman/ attack my target" command is there and somehow modifies it and applies it to the wingman/ cover me command so that when the AI wingman is asked to cover you he doesn't go flying off on a vector 90-180 degrees while you get your virtual @ss handed to you by some bandit on your 6 that, btw your wingman is flying right next to if not right behind as he goes off to do who knows what other than cover your tail. That is my biggest gripe with the sim.. I don't mind the ace enemy AI.. it is the all too often brain dead friendly AI that drives me nuts.... but I digress ....

AS I said .. I cant speak much for the other mod sites... but the AAA site should not be lumped up with some of the others I have heard about... and perhaps some sort of compromise is in order....

[fireflyerz]

While the rightness or wrongness of Gozr's post is indeed debateable... that there is some good stuff coming from AAA there is no question. That is a fact. I don't know about any of the other mod communities... and I am still flying mod free... but some of the stuff coming from AAA is good. A lot of it is good.

I just hope that Oleg takes whatever code for the "wingman/ attack my target" command is there and somehow modifies it and applies it to the wingman/ cover me command so that when the AI wingman is asked to cover you he doesn't go flying off on a vector 90-180 degrees while you get your virtual @ss handed to you by some bandit on your 6 that, btw your wingman is flying right next to if not right behind as he goes off to do who knows what other than cover your tail. That is my biggest gripe with the sim.. I don't mind the ace enemy AI.. it is the all too often brain dead friendly AI that drives me nuts.... but I digress ....

AS I said .. I cant speak much for the other mod sites... but the AAA site should not be lumped up with some of the others I have heard about... and perhaps some sort of compromise is in order....




Well said Bearcat:D

[tater]

Well, I, ah, tried it, but I didn't inhale ;)

:D

tater

[crazyivan1970]

While the rightness or wrongness of Gozr's post is indeed debateable...

DEBATEABLE? Are you friggin kidding me? The most disrespectful, poor and baseless post i`v seen in years. Few changes made by group of hackers (sorry, modders) that pleased few people compared with years of work. WTF is that?

[GOZR]

Yvan you are confusing and confused.. just relax... why not trying to resolve something for change.. There is a big amount of potential imo.

Why not doing something out of the commun .. something progressive and not destructive ?

[SlipBall]

I think that Ivan is dead on,

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

GOZR, I understand what you are trying to get at, but your intentions were clouded when you made a very unwise decision to insult oleg and his team. There are probably a hundred ways to say that the modders are doing good work and should be looked at by oleg without the very poorly thought out insult.

[GOZR]

No insults were given.. Noway.. just observations

[Feuerfalke]

No insults were given.. Noway.. just observations

Hm, maybe we all got this wrong then?

"I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools."

[crazyivan1970]

Yvan you are confusing and confused.. just relax... why not trying to resolve something for change.. There is a big amount of potential imo.

Why not doing something out of the commun .. something progressive and not destructive ?

Oh no, i am not confused... I got the picture, loud and clear.

[GOZR]

The AAA work provided on top of Oleg Great sim is Fantastic superior to almost all original maps .. It is also understandable that many are old and even from the first il2 many years back... many years back... This is not about programing nor FM, we can keep this aside and concentrate on design graphics.
If a works has been done promptly rushed as stated before by map maker that mean that the work wasn't real good and it doesn't mean that they were stupid... just a good critic of some design work/time period.

So there is no insult as some others try to imply but instead some raw critic.

Now what about trying to go forward and find that solution.

[GOZR]

Yvan if you have nothing to add or just been destructive well don't read my friend.. I'm just pushing for a good positive solution to all this..

Maybe i'm all wrong but at list why not trying.. what do you think ?

[Feuerfalke]

The AAA work provided on top of Oleg Great sim is Fantastic superior to almost all original maps .. It is also understandable that many are old and even from the first il2 many years back... many years back... This is not about programing nor FM, we can keep this aside and concentrate on design graphics.
If a works has been done promptly rushed as stated before by map maker that mean that the work wasn't real good and it doesn't mean that they were stupid... just a good critic of some design work/time period.

So there is no insult as some others try to imply but instead some raw critic.

Now what about trying to go forward and find that solution.

If 1C had taken the time to finish one map with such a detail and dropped 10% of the planes to compensate, I bet you'd say something different.

[GOZR]

3D guys making Planes and map makers design aren't not suppose to be a different team?....

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Ok, maybe we do have this wrong, one can tell that english is not GOZR's first language, maybe he did not mean his OP to come out the way it did. It sounded pretty bad and it sounded intended but maybe not? Either way lets try and ignore the negative aspect of the OP and maybe discuss the meat of what GOZR is trying to say, which I beleive is to say that there is a wealth of talent as far as maps and textures going on at AAA that may indeed be usable material for oleg and team. I do agree that it would be difficult from a political standpoint for oleg to use work that came out of the original hacking but at the same time much work has gone on at AAA by folks who had nothing to do with the breaking of encryptions.

[GOZR]

A good example tell me why you like BlackShark ? my answer should be in your answer.

[GOZR]

Yes Shinjiro

[HenFre]

Might be a stupid question, but what does AAA stand for?

[GOZR]

"All Aircraft Arcade" rather get "AAA" since the tittle really doesn't reflect well now.. imo

[tater]

GOZR and I had a misunderstanding at ubi, and I'm confident it was entirely a language issue. Pretty wide latitude for that has to be given on an international forum.

<S>

tater

[Feuerfalke]

I think the basic misconception is the fact that there COULD be an acceptance from Oleg. How would that work?

1. 1C does not have the manpower to control the code that has been altered by the modders. So it's basically an all or nothing situation, no compromise or something.

2. We're not talking about new sounds being added to the game. The so-called soundmod includes modifications to the FM, cockpits, effects, physics, view-system, etc. What would YOU allow and what not? How could you say it's okay to have the bar in the 190 removed, but no 6DOF for the Tempest, because most of the cockpits are not modeled for that?

3. How would you control it online? There are already servers allowing the crack, if they are officially accepted, you cannot be sure if your opponent just modded the soundfiles or if he "by accident" reduced his aircraft weight to 0.1 or added a few hundred horses to his engine?


I guess you asked me about BlackShark?

I'm looking forward to see a really detailed modeled aircraft - that is what I am hoping for in BoB, too.
If you are refering to the mods for LockOn:
That is exactly the reason why I understand Oleg and his policy about these modifications: Once you got shot down by an IR-guided Phoenix AA-missile fired from an A-10 or saw some videos on youtube where a plane fires AMRAAMs like from a gatling-gun on an online server, you'd understand me better, maybe. I love the skins, I love the new textures, but I really, really hate to see an F111 fly like an F15, a B52 with the capabilities of an Su-33, etc. And there is no way to control these mods online! :mad:

[TheFamilyMan]

Well here a question that will probably hard to answer but i have to say.

Oleg I'm not playing with IL2 for quite some time and the question i want to ask is .. Why the peoples working to modify IL2 do a much much better work then your team ?


I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools.

S~
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you! Shame on you!

Sure, there are pretty nice mods out there (which I also use), but in no way does it mean that the modders work is "better" than the ones who created it. You need to consider that the IL-2 team had decisions to make within budget constraints about what goes in and what does not. Modders do it as a hobby, just for fun with no deadlines, and knowing the amount of work it takes, I would not be supprised if they were mostly single guys without much else to do in their spare time. I respect the efforts of anyone that works for a living, and then goes home to a well rounded lifestyle (hence my alias). Though overall, my hats off to all teams that have made IL-2 a better experience, and first and foremost its creators. I'm not worried that a mod I use 'sanctioned' or not, but I condemn the use of cheat mod, and I'm sure legal departments would quickly crush any illegal activities associated with the mods.

[LEXX]

Feuerfalke (page 2):: SH3 is a very good example for an excellent mod. The same is true for OpenFalcon, which exceeded the original engine by far. But both games are primarily played offline and there is no real competition in either games.
Oleg's sim has always been primarily played offline. The only air combat sims primarily played Online are all Pay~To~Play, which I believe offers additional ways of preventing cheating, as well as preventing piracy.

Feuerfalke:: 3. How would you control it online?
Same way we control our social life -- don't hang out with "cheaters."

[tater]

No, mostly (all?) married guys, in at least one team around half with toddlers pulling on them as they try to work.

Having to do things with little guidance, so learn as you go. Appropriate sized, located PTO map, every single airfield unique (every single RL airfield there, too. And each field is based on the real shape on maps, BDA images, etc), and 6 different versions for different time periods—all built in 4-6 months. The 1st month or two not really making the map, just learning how. Note that each of the 6 maps is more complex (and 4X bigger) than the NG map (in no small part due to the fact that each important part is actually researched—ie: how many bunker oil tanks were there on a certain date at a certain place, exactly?). There is obviously time saving with 6X the same terrain with only minor changes. Call it 10xNG min boundary value, 24XNG as the max. That's a fair number of maps for 4 guys in 6 months. ;) Times X map teams.

The next map will be faster, I'd wager, or maybe the same amount of calendar time, but less actual man-hours ;)

<S>

tater

[Bearcat]

DEBATEABLE? Are you friggin kidding me? The most disrespectful, poor and baseless post i`v seen in years. Few changes made by group of hackers (sorry, modders) that pleased few people compared with years of work. WTF is that?

Only debatable because for one thing.. Gozr can say what he wants.. but anyone with half a brain knows that whatever work the modders are doing would not be possible if Oleg & his team had not made the sim in the first place.. and the sim itself is an undeniable work of art regardless to what anyone else may say about it's warts...

Gozr's choice of words is not the best.... because let's face it, unless I am getting something completely wrong here even the "new" stuff that the modders are making is not really "new" per se... it is modified, repackaged old stuff.. But the basic point he is making is a good one.. and that point is.... there is a lot coming from one mod site in particular, (the only one I know of.. since I don't do mods thus far so I don't know all the places.. but I am sure there are at least a few more... ) that would have been GREAT stuff to have had added to the sim by the 1C team. Is it better than Oleg's team? In true quality? I doubt it.... best analogy I can come up with is that Oleg built this sim on the atomic level... and the work of the modders is on the molecular level... and no matter what they do it will always be on the molecular level so it wont have the same ...... dynamism for lack of a better term as Oleg's work done on the atomic level... but .... it is still some good stuff.

I would love to be able to skin the statics..... which I still cannot do... unless I use the mods.... or skin ships..... or have more maps in the QMB... or have a K-14 on a P-47.. or have a loadout for rockets on a P-51... or have HVARs on a P-47... and I could go on... but as I said.. I still cannot do that... unless I mod up... which I have chosen not to do as of yet..... but the fact that these guys can offer those things is a good thing with hindsight... and I would hope that if these guys "only care about the sim" as so many of them have said... that they would be more than willing to have their "mods" incorporated into the sim if Oleg was willing to make whatever corrections that could or had to be made to make it more seamless.. Yes I know.. wishfull thinking perhaps on my part... but it would be nice.

I think all Gozr is saying is that things many thought were impossible were not impossible.... I never thought it was... I always thought that it was just a matter of priorities.. and 1C's priority was not and is not fulfilling every single wish of every single member of this community.. [i]especially for free[i]... which is as it should not be. I hope that if nothing else the things I mentioned above .. and yes I know it is purely selfish of me.. because there are probably as many "wishists" as there are community members... but I would hope that some of thiose things could be less painfully added to the sim by 1C... since .. lets face it.. how can you have proprietary rights on wrongfully obtained modifications?

[tater]

In the case of the maps, that's simply not true, bearcat, with all due respect.

The map is the map. If anything, the stock maps were molecular, and the new maps are "atomic." That goes for modder built as well as the "official" player map making teams doing stuff like Burma/Slovakia/Bessarabia, etc. They are simply better in every way than the 1C/RRG maps. Period.

It's not because they are not limited by system specs, either. It's map-size independent. The new maps use some techniques not used (possibly not available, certainly on the original il-2) like the use of (free) SRTM data for elevation maps. What they also have is attention to detail, and a little lateral thinking.

Ian's maps are better, for example, because he's damn skilled, and he cares.

The stock maps, and PF maps for the most part simply do not show that anyone cared at some level. Copy and pasted airfields, for example. I always assumed that only a few airfield types were possible, not that the only limit on airfield appearance was bothering to make them look the way you want. Look at the towns, too. Modders built an app to populate the terrain tile that have streets with buildings along the streets instead of sort of randomly placed.

The bones are GREAT, no one argues that. Really, top notch!

But for map making it is exactly analogous to mission/campaign creation, it's entirely the product of user skill and attention to detail, nothing else.

tater

[Chivas]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Why the peoples working to modify IL2 do a much much better work then your team ?

I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't care what language you speak...thats an insult....with very little understanding of the original works constraints of time and making maps for the average computer of the time.

Even if Oleg were interested in AAA's work it would be a total waste of his time, effort, and money. He has moved on to a much improve game engine that should provide the basis for a new series that should keep his company going for many more years.

This should provide us with many more years of game improvements and possibly an even better game engine in time.

Its fine for us to support some part time modders, but be carefull what you wish for.....it could kill the golden goose. There are very few passionate air combat developers out there.

[tater]

The average computer when 1946 was released? Again, map making skill and quality has exactly squat to do with machine specs. Object counts in the SWPA, for example, can be quite high—on huge maps—and still TINY compared to maps like Berlin.

The PTO is a prime example of where bothering to think about it would show that "less is more." They really don't need all that many objects to look good. To get up there with Berlin you'd have to start building copra platations with palm trees touching fronds all over the place, lol.

[Chivas]

Have any of these "much better" unsupported maps been completed so we can judge their content? Links?

[GOZR]

Chivas You give me the Chiva.. don't force anyone to add Links here to get banned, if you are not able to look for yourself at the right places I have nothing more to say to you..

Plz re-read posts thanks..

Do your own researches you really will discover some nice goodies.

[LEXX]

Chivas:: Its fine for us to support some part time modders, but be carefull what you wish for.....it could kill the golden goose. There are very few passionate air combat developers out there.
All the Passionate air combat developers in the field know the benefits of modding to their paying customers, or they are developers of Pay-To-Play Online sims. Oleg is a Newbie in the field, and he is learning as we poast.

[tater]

The Slot aimed at March 31st for completion, and while we didn't hit that date, we are very close, indeed.

[GOZR]

What i saw of the Slot , It that it was a really details oriented map very close to reality..
I was very glad to see it and actually made me want to fly again..

To whom may concern i say Great job.

[tater]

BTW, I think that the continuing interest and desire to improve gameplay options for Il-2 shows how very well built it was in the first place.

<S> Oleg, et al, and I look forward to purchasing SOW.

[Thrud]

hopefully 1c will see that it is user generated content that will extend the life of the product (any product) and all that is needed from the devs is the game engine and the tools to work within that engine and the community will do the rest. 1C will still get thier money because everyone will need thier game engine and tools. let the community do the rest.

look at the MS flight sim business model. they've been making money on that title since 1976. it was around 3 years before Windows was.

[GOZR]

:)

[ElAurens]

In fairness you cannot compare Microsoft's flight procedure simulator to an air combat simulator. The markets are totally different, their uses are utterly different, and frankly the FS series in stock form has worse graphic textures than Oleg's by a mile. And as many map inaccuracies, if not more, as well.

I do give Microsoft credit though, they have made it possible for a number of "entrepreneurs" to bilk customers out of a lot of cash for single aircraft models and improved ground tiles. Quite the scam. Nice damage modeling too...

:rolleyes:

[csThor]

Some people here have a view on life, on business that really scares me. And obviously an amazing ability to ignore things they don't want to hear. :roll:

[proton45]

I was just reading some comments on another forum (research and curiosity) and Gozr's attitude is pretty typical of the contempt that they seem to have for Oleg and his team...

The one big difference that I can see between the "AAA" crowd and the "Grey Wolfs" "Silent Hunter III" crowd is that the "Grey Wolfs" crowd seem to have a little more class then the "AAA" crowd. I haven't seen many examples of the "Grey Wolf" community openly mocking the developers of "Silent Hunter III" like the way the "AAA" community seem to mock Oleg....

Let me start off by saying that I have downloaded and used the Silent Hunter stuff (great mod) but I haven't tried any of the AAA stuff (yet). Some of the maps their working on look kind of interesting (I found it ironic that community members projected a "2 week" wait for some of the "mod maps" to be completed) and I might want to fly them some day...BUT, I just wish that they didn't see their work as a great big "FU" to Oleg...

For now, I don't think that I will try any of the mods...it would make me feel too "dirty".

[Bearcat]

In the case of the maps, that's simply not true, bearcat, with all due respect.

The map is the map. If anything, the stock maps were molecular, and the new maps are "atomic." That goes for modder built as well as the "official" player map making teams doing stuff like Burma/Slovakia/Bessarabia, etc. They are simply better in every way than the 1C/RRG maps. Period.



So are you saying that the new modded maps are made from scratch like Ian's maps were? Or are they created by using what is here officially. I don't count the new maps or Ians maps as modded maps. When I say modded maps I mean maps made unofficially... some of them may be good... but arent they just made from what is already available, that has been officially released by 1C? I ask because I want to know. I was under the impression that they were not.. that they were modified maps that were released.. a little expanding here.. tweaking there etc.... and AFAIC there isnt anything out that can really compare to the new recently released maps. They are just stunning. I have not flown on any of the modded maps, which is the proof in the pudding IMO... so again I dont know.. but as I said.. I am going on the notion that these maps were modifed as accurately as they could get it but modded by basically cutting and pasting and recoloring & naming etc here and there..



I was just reading some comments on another forum (research and curiosity) and Gozr's attitude is pretty typical of the contempt that they seem to have for Oleg and his team....BUT, I just wish that they didn't see their work as a great big "FU" to Oleg...
For now, I don't think that I will try any of the mods...it would make me feel too "dirty".

I failed mind reading 101 miserably.. (ask Mamabear ;) ) so I cant say what anyone over there really feels , however that attitude is one of the main reasons why, although I can see that there is some good stuff there I still have not used any of it... that attitude you speak of. I know all the members there dont feel that way.... Most of the folks who run the site don't.. but many of the folks who use thier work do...

[Chivas]

Chivas::
All the Passionate air combat developers in the field know the benefits of modding to their paying customers, or they are developers of Pay-To-Play Online sims. Oleg is a Newbie in the field, and he is learning as we poast.


Some Newbie...lol...created the definitive combat flight sim. I'm quite sure he's learning as we post, and has proven to have learnt more than any other combat flight sim developer and my guess he will continue to learn and outperform them. I wish he did have more competition, but he won't be getting competion any time soon from modders working on an old game engine.

In time, if we are very lucky, maybe one of these modders will have the ability to create his own game engine from scratch. Then he will have to learn to take the good salted with the crap of dozens of ingrate two book knowitall historians.

[tater]

Bearcat, I mean maps that started from NOTHING, not retextures of existing maps.

Some of the maps alluded to are not based AT ALL on any stock maps. They were created from whole cloth (and space shuttle radar topography mission data).

they are not stretching existing maps, they are not redecorating existing maps, they are... NEW MAPS.

The only stuff reused are textures/objects since there is already a substantial library of decent textures and objects. Reusing stock textures (most all the stock maps, do, too) is desirable since it increases compatibility for anyone who wishes minimal changes. You can absolutely ONLY load new maps as mods, for example.

[tater]

Actually, I don't see that attitude much at all. I see that attitude towards people irrationally attacking mods, but not vs Oleg. I think RRG gets most of the flak on the "official" level since the PTO crowd feels like they got a very poorly executed product, and many of the most glaring problems turned out to be not that hard to fix.

[Feuerfalke]

Feuerfalke (page 2)::
Oleg's sim has always been primarily played offline. The only air combat sims primarily played Online are all Pay~To~Play, which I believe offers additional ways of preventing cheating, as well as preventing piracy.

Feuerfalke::
Same way we control our social life -- don't hang out with "cheaters."

1. Nobody cares if you use cheats offline. Online that is something completely different.

2. The question is: How do you see who's a cheater and who is not?

[tater]

Hang out with them for a while, if they don't seem like the type of jerks that would cheat, they very likely don't cheat.

I have yet to see a "cheat" mod, so for offline, it's not "cheating," it's "added content."

tater

[LEXX]

Chivas:: Some Newbie...lol...created the definitive combat flight sim. I'm quite sure he's learning as we post, and has proven to have learnt more than any other combat flight sim developer and my guess he will continue to learn and outperform them. I wish he did have more competition, but he won't be getting competion any time soon from modders working on an old game engine.
Total Newbie. Oleg lost too many of his Offline play customers who pay for the sim, not just from lack of modding, but from crippling his own combat flight sim in attempts to prevent "cheating" in the (non-paying) Online Dogfight servers.

[LEXX]

Feuerfalke:: 2. The question is: How do you see who's a cheater and who is not?
The answer is -- the same way we see who's a cheater in our social life.

tater:: Hang out with them for a while, if they don't seem like the type of jerks that would cheat, they very likely don't cheat.
Its odd that we have to explain social interaction like this.

[Feuerfalke]

Feuerfalke::
The answer is -- the same way we see who's a cheater in our social life.



Exactly, Lexx. But do we really want that? Do we really want to simply find out by getting cheated? Wouldn't we quickly jump to conclusions, ban people because their nicknames are registered over at AAA, because their statements in the forums leave open the conclusion that he actually uses mods, no matter if for his online installation or otherwise? Reminds you to some bad things happening right in front of your doors?

How many people over the last years were accused of being cheaters in IL2, just because they were pure lucky, had a connection problem that saved their virtual butts or used the well-known print-screen thing. Would you ban them all? Who would still be allowed to play online? How do you think you can identify somebody who uses bright orange-skins for enemy-planes or (like the "mods" for Quake3) landscapes without textures, clouds, fog or icons on, while the server doesn't allow that. Just from the Kill-Death-Ratio?

[LEXX]

Feuerfalke:: Exactly, Lexx. But do we really want that? Do we really want to simply find out by getting cheated? Wouldn't we quickly jump to conclusions, ban people because their nicknames are registered over at AAA, because their statements in the forums leave open the conclusion that he actually uses mods, no matter if for his online installation or otherwise? Reminds you to some bad things happening right in front of your doors?

How many people over the last years were accused of being cheaters in IL2, just because they were pure lucky, had a connection problem that saved their virtual butts or used the well-known print-screen thing. Would you ban them all? Who would still be allowed to play online? How do you think you can identify somebody who uses bright orange-skins for enemy-planes or (like the "mods" for Quake3) landscapes without textures, clouds, fog or icons on, while the server doesn't allow that. Just from the Kill-Death-Ratio?

Members of private servers don't run around accusing each other of cheating like how you describe here. The anti-social behavior you depend on for your argument here is confined to, for example, ubi.com members playing anonymous public servers.

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice. Now, there could be an issue for Newbies and their first time coming Online, before they find friends to fly with, people that they trust. But that is also like real life social interaction. The best things in life take time to accomplish.

[Feuerfalke]

Feuerfalke::

Members of private servers don't run around accusing each other of cheating like how you describe here. The anti-social behavior you depend on for your argument here is confined to, for example, ubi.com members playing anonymous public servers.

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice. Now, there could be an issue for Newbies and their first time coming Online, before they find friends to fly with, people that they trust. But that is also like real life social interaction. The best things in life take time to accomplish.

I'm not talking about pay-for-play-servers and not about purely admins, but if I'd count how many times the word "cheater" was written over the last week on Warclouds, for example... And I only flew a few sorties!

Well, at least I'm very impressed you know all people personally for a long time, you meet on online servers. I'm playing IL2 online since it's original release and I can't say that for me, not even daring to say that I know what the game looks like on their monitors. Hats off to you, if you got that wisdom and knowledge - must have been a hard work. ;)

[msalama]

OK, as a former IL-2 player this is what I think:

You can't really compare SH3 and IL-2. The first one is primarily an offline game, and while you can go multiplayer there the gameplay is still against an AI opponent only. And there's a fundamental difference between the participants all fighting against a common enemy vs. them going at each others' virtual throats anyway - the former promotes unity and teamplay, the latter discontent and competetiveness to the point of the combatants using whatever means in their disposal to win... including cheating.

So in that sense IL-2's anonymous online play is indeed as good as dead now. And it's not as if there wasn't any cheating before this thing went public; there was, but the situation today still isn't the same because you have no way of telling who's flying what now, or even whether the CRT=2 thingy works anymore. So instead of the implicit trust we had w/ the locked FMs of old what we have now is oodles of paranoia and mistrust - and that in itself is enough to wreck the anonymous online component of this game for good, even if no-one took any advantages of the FMs being currently exposed.

Yah, sounds like I'm whining, I know, but I'm not. Hell, I would've quit playing IL-2 even if this thing had never happened, because the old girl was getting pretty shallow and repetitious after all these years anyway. So in that sense I really don't care what's happening w/ the game, but I still think anyone claiming this thing hasn't changed anything fundamental are, frankly speaking, talking out of their butts.

But then, s*t happens and all things must pass, eh?

But as regards modding IL-2 I really don't see the point myself, even beyond any moral and cheating issues. I mean, what IS the point? If you use mods online you get branded as a cheater, and if you use them offline you still have to suffer the godawful AI and other assorted limits of an ancient game engine. Well each to their own, of course, but I'd still use my time in something more worthwhile if I were you ;)

OK, rant off & back to SH3 + GWX 2.0, sez Herr Kaleun Marcus Salmowsky, the commander of U-55 ;) S! all and keep the sunny side up guys.

[msalama]

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice.

...which, OTOH, doesn't alter the fact of the overall online gaming situation having changed fundamentally w/ the crack anyway, cheaters abounding or not, because the psychological consequences of it are still there regardless of what may - or may not - really happen. Surely you understand this, Lexx?

[Feuerfalke]

...which, OTOH, doesn't alter the fact of the overall online gaming situation having changed fundamentally w/ the crack anyway, cheaters abounding or not, because the psychological consequences of it are still there regardless of what may - or may not - really happen. Surely you understand this, Lexx?

+1

Very good posts, msalama.


As I posted before: Who cares if you "add content" to your offline game? But the pure fact that this modding is possible caused a lot of players to quit online playing (as it was allready posted on UBIZoo and here) and accusations of cheating and the overall attitude towards other players has changed dramatically since this crack was released and I have no doubt that it will sooner or later lead to the same effect we have in LOMAC: Only the hardcore fans still play online or people who don't care, whereas the later usually use mods themselves, to my experience.

[msalama]

Thank you Falke!

But all of a sudden it now seems that the Empire is indeed striking back after all ;) See this thread over at SimHQ:

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485150&Board=86&fpart=all&gonew=1#UNREAD

[LEXX]

mslama:: You can't really compare SH3 and IL-2. The first one is primarily an offline game,...
IL-2/FB is primarily an Offline game in number of customer sales and financing of Oleg's business. Granted, Oleg's personal focus and hobby was primarily Online Dogfight fps shooter gaming which alone does not pay the bills without Pay-To-Play.

If you use mods online you get branded as a cheater, and if you use them offline you still have to suffer the godawful AI and other assorted limits of an ancient game engine....
The benefit of Online play is human vs human gameplay. When played Online, the sim becomes real life social interaction. We only get branded as a cheater if we play with anti-social and hostile behaving players, for example some members of ubi.com who frequent the anonymous public servers. The true Online play community is modding up their FB/PF in private servers as we poast.

[csThor]

Get off your high horse now and don't give me that cr@p about the "true online community", Lexx! :evil:

This elitist BS is one of the main reasons why I bother with posting my anti-modding opinion. I have a very low tolerance for arrogance and the snide attitude I see at AAA is IMO the primary reason why you guys are taking so much flak. You guys were a lot easier to get along with (read: easier to ignore) if you weren't behaving like some self-proclaimed cult leaders who claimed to have the holy grail in their hands.

[Feuerfalke]

The glorious days of hacker-groups, that managed to post their label in protected games and spreading them on schoolyards is long gone.

What you call "true Online play community" on anonymous servers, is neither the "true" community, whatever that should be, and it is most surely not anonymous; they're numerous, if at all.

But that's what we're talking about:
This is not about a group of fans flying purely offline campaigns in a Tigermoth, with visible explosions and smoketrails for well above 10km or billboards to make Icons visible over larger distances. I doubt anybody would even care. It's about those who use these mods to fly on "non-elitist" servers and you cannot say who is using what modifications.

[Rama]

That goes for modder built as well as the "official" player map making teams doing stuff like Burma/Slovakia/Bessarabia, etc. They are simply better in every way than the 1C/RRG maps. .../...

And takes a lot of time to built.... except for "simple" terrain like for example PTO or desert.
Maps like Kurland, Norway, Burma, Bessarabia, etc.... took several hundreds of hours to be completed (not even counting testing and corrections). For Slovakia, we know it's a several thousands of hours.

Let's imagine M:1C would have decided to do all the map with the quality work of Slovakia. Because they're used to the tools and pro, it could have took them "only" a thousand of hours per map... with around 12 maps to start, that's around 6 years of man-work (so 3 peoples working full time during 2 years).
.... this in addition to all the rest (graphic engine, planes, FM, AI, etc, etc, etc...)

You must remember that M:1C is a very small team... and choices had to be done about priorities. Maps were probably not ultra-high on the priority scale... especially since they allready took a lot of time to choose the solution (those who have followed IL2 dev before the release remember that different options were envisaged for the map making... including the use of satellite image textures, who was abandonned because too ressource-heavy for the PC of that time), leaving a few time to developp the map tools and then the map themthelves.
After the release they where allways overloaded... that's why Oleg considered to give the map tools to some choosen external teams.

I have no doubt that now the code is cracked, external teams can do some excellent work with map making... especially in low-populated areas (PTO, desert, etc). But I doubt very much they will complete "slovakia-style" maps on european areas in less than 2/3 years (it took 3 years to a very dedicated team to do the Slovakia map).
... In any case, I wont fly with any of the mods... I'm now waiting for SoW and KotS.

Still, I agree that PF was released too early, with a work that was mostly unfinished and that the choice of maps was far to be perfect.

[msalama]

The true Online play community is modding up their FB/PF in private servers as we poast.

Well according to your opinion at least. Us mere mortals may disagree however, because tastes differ.

I did play w/ a closed crowd of participants in private servers for a while myself, and let me tell you, that grows rather boring after a while because you soon know the combatants and their capabilities pretty well. And the rest then tends to be the same old same old repeated ad infitum, whereas w/ the public matches what you used to get when the same rules still applied to all was a good mix of skilled and not-so-skilled combatants. So what you had was an element of surprise combined w/ lots of variety PLUS a known playing field, which is something we plain and simple cannot trust to have anymore w/ the crack out there. No?

Hell, pre-hack you at least _knew_ what to expect for the most part regardless of your personal opinions of some FMs or whatever, but now? Now these anti-social types you keep on mentioning have an excellent means of cheating at least if they're skilled enough, whereas previously you could just ignore them if you wanted. Ergo, the public online part - which used to be something the majority of us onliners preferred, at least to my understanding - is dead and buried now, and not because of the anti-social types out there, BUT BECAUSE of this game having been hacked. Easy and simple, no?

So yeah Lexx, twist this any way you want, but this I think is the jist of it still. And mind you, it doesn't really change anything even if the 'tards _don't_ actually cheat because the trust is just not there anymore...

Not a biggie, though, because this game is getting pretty long in the tooth anyway. But trying to obfuscate what's basically pretty straightforward doesn't really cut it either Lexx ;)

And oh yeah, closed communities and offliners can of course do what they want, provided that they don't come and p*ss on my preferred online cornflakes. It's just that nowadays I've no way of knowing for sure if they actually do, unless it's very blatant - and that, my friend, is the point here.

S!

[msalama]

It's about those who use these mods to fly on "non-elitist" servers and you cannot say who is using what modifications.

Exactly.

[Lo0n]

oh come on, i've only been flying online for a few months now, and only in public non-mod servers, but i have still to see any cheating going on. you do start to recognise the players who aren't just stopping by for a one off visit, and you start geting chatting to them. you do see people getting insta-kicked as soon as they join, evidently because they have the modded files, and then you see them rejoin when (presumably) they have used the version switcher tool to revert to stock. no funny flying, no super p.11's, no 108 armed spitfires. and the trust aspect? well how many times have you had someone warp out of your gunsight, pre- and post-mod days? did that not do anything for your trust of certain players?

the online game is far from dead, there seems to be a bit of ebb and flow of numbers on the servers i play on but it goes up as well as down. but then if you aren't playing cos you don't trust anyone... how would you know about the state of online play?

[msalama]

did that not do anything for your trust of certain players?

Not overmuch... their Internet connections, however, were sometimes a bit untrustworthy ;)

And yes, there were 'tards printscreening and cable-pulling before the crack too, of course. But that still doesn't lessen the fact of the basic situation being different now - and if you can't accept or understand that, fine, your business.

how would you know about the state of online play?

How would I know about some good friends still flying online telling me about the general swing of things in the circles I used to frequent while I was still active myself? By e-mail, among other means... HTH ;)

[msalama]

But hey, this discussion is just so much c**p and little else if IL-2 indeed goes Steam w/ v4.09, now isn't it?

[Feuerfalke]

oh come on, i've only been flying online for a few months now, and only in public non-mod servers, but i have still to see any cheating going on. you do start to recognise the players who aren't just stopping by for a one off visit, and you start geting chatting to them. you do see people getting insta-kicked as soon as they join, evidently because they have the modded files, and then you see them rejoin when (presumably) they have used the version switcher tool to revert to stock. no funny flying, no super p.11's, no 108 armed spitfires. and the trust aspect? well how many times have you had someone warp out of your gunsight, pre- and post-mod days? did that not do anything for your trust of certain players?

the online game is far from dead, there seems to be a bit of ebb and flow of numbers on the servers i play on but it goes up as well as down. but then if you aren't playing cos you don't trust anyone... how would you know about the state of online play?

No, online playing is not dead - nobody said, but it changed.

Surely we've had warping and stuff before, but that's not the point. I can see somebody that jumps from my gunsight to my six, while his ping rises and I know he's a printscreener and usually he's getting kicked before he can use that advantage. You knew that, everybody knew certain bugs and exploits and you could easily identify people, at least by watching the tracks.
But I cannot detect, if somebody uses a transparent cockpit or wonder-woman view on a Cockpit-locked server or if he detected me over 30km or over 3km. Can you?

[ElAurens]

To understand Lexx's posts you must understand that he does not fly online, and he doesn't fly this sim at all anymore, and the few times he did fly online he was blown out of the sky. He is very active in the Strike Fighters modding community. He is a modder looking for another sandbox to play in.

He has made the same baseless arguement about "onliners not paying" for years.

Ignore him.

The poor soul is lost.

[msalama]

OK, "dead and buried" is admittedly a gross overstatement, granted... but still, do people _really_ think that an existing cheating loophole _wouldn't_ get exploited in an ultra-competetive environment such as IL-2? I find that extremely hard to believe myself, us humans being the a$$hats that we unfortunately are :P

[Lo0n]

fair point on human nature, and ok you are kept up to speed on the state of online play, but people rarely mention the days when nothing untoward is seen so it can (possibly) paint an uneven or distorted picture of things. i don't think that because the loophole exists it won't be exploited, but i am of the opinion that it is not that widely used, certainly not as widely seen as forum posts would have me believe. maybe that's just the servers i use.

and no you can't detect if someone is using a transparent cockpit or is just an exceptionally lucky/good shot. watch them, if they consistently correct and rounds connect with a target that is manouvering in the blind spot under their nose then yeah, could be onto something. one thing i have seen a couple times is a fairly new player on a server getting owned by one of the better server regulars - out comes the "you cheat" message in the chatbar. it's pretty much certain that the player is simply bloody good, not a cheater. i don't know, i just am not seeing the rash of mod users making impossible moves, shots or climbing like a saturn 5. when i get outflown i immediately put it down to them being a better pilot, not "they must be cheating". and then i take off again and look to get one or two thousand metres higher than i was before, and go looking for them.

[LEXX]

mslama:: And oh yeah, closed communities and offliners can of course do what they want, provided that they don't come and p*ss on my preferred online cornflakes. It's just that nowadays I've no way of knowing for sure if they actually do, unless it's very blatant - and that, my friend, is the point here.
Any player who would use mods to cheat you in anonymous public servers are neither a member of a closed community nor an Offline player.

Only anonymous pubic server players would want to cheat you in anonymous public servers.

Now you know.

Now these anti-social types you keep on mentioning have an excellent means of cheating at least if they're skilled enough, whereas previously you could just ignore them if you wanted.
Not exactly. The anti-social types I refer to are the ones crying on the webboards about potential cheating on anonymous public servers -- like in this thread -- who have always run around the boards accusing the *true* Online community and accusing Oleg's *true* paying customers, the Offline players, of cheating in anonymous public servers.



Tip: I've only played this sim Offline, but I do know social interaction on the street. If you wish to learn the basics of Online gameplay, as social interaction, just ask. :grin:

[LEXX]

csThor:: Get off your high horse now and don't give me that cr@p about the "true online community", Lexx!

This elitist BS is one of the main reasons why I bother with posting my anti-modding opinion. I have a very low tolerance for arrogance and the snide attitude I see at AAA is IMO the primary reason why you guys are taking so much flak. You guys were a lot easier to get along with (read: easier to ignore) if you weren't behaving like some self-proclaimed cult leaders who claimed to have the holy grail in their hands.
Woah Thor, did you fall off the horse again. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Wink.gif

If you can get back into the saddle, we can talk about the points discussed over the last few pages.

[tater]

Good points, Rama. I didn't mean to imply that doing all the maps at the quality level of Slovakia would be cost-effective for them. Really, that underlines the point that the map tools should have been included with the game from the start. Actually, the primary tool IS INCLUDED with il-2, the only thing needed was a map file structure open like Paint Schemes. The community would have done the rest (it's exactly analogous to the quality of what we see in the default game for skins vs some of the accomplished skinners—some later patches have great skins... done by the community skinners).

Regarding the simplicity of the PTO maps, I don't disagree, I was posting as much at ubi before and after PF release. Posting that the very simplicity of the most important areas of the PTO (not CBI) is largely jungle and water, and as such, larger maps should be possible as the object counts would be low.

That said, there are still hundreds of hours work in even such a "simple" map. Research alone was substantial. In regards to PF as a title, really some focus was what was needed with that project, and a couple areas done well would trump a wide array of the Pacific, done and chosen poorly. Concentrating on the Solomons and SWPA would have clearly made the most sense. Huge bang for the buck time wise because the area is easier to map, with the added benefit that it was the primary air theater of the war, AND it had back and forth combat like the maps in earlier Il-2 theaters, not just air start vs scramble.

Certainly the more populated areas of the Pacific will become far more challenging to decorate, every bit as complicated as Slovakia, really, considering that the maps will have to be so very much bigger by default, so even if they have fewer colonial (which in effect means european style places) towns/cities per square km, they will have a multiple of the number of km^2. The Philippines would also be daunting in that regard... huge map, very inhabited, western looking places. Obviously the same applies to the mainland (it's a mistake to think that the entire war in the PTO took place away from modern inhabited areas).

Slovakia is a tour de force, really, it plays to the strengths of the engine, visually. The not so great land-sea interactions in the engine make it tougher in some ways in the Pacific (and the in many cases extremes of relief).

Regarding the tone... elsewhere... I just don't see it. Sometimes someone shows up with an agenda and trolls, and they get what they troll for, which must reenforce their POV.

<S>

tater

[csThor]

Lexx - I won't bother argueing with you. I could do the same with a wall of my flat and achieve the same results. I've seen your "discussion style" over the past few years and I have neither the time nor the nerves to do your routine of "posting-the-same-stuff-over-and-over-again-until-the-other-is-fed-up-and-quits". I simply don't care. :roll:
However you infered that people who do not use mods are not "true" simmers in a very underhanded way. This is what I object to - the steady (more or less hidden) imputations that modders are somehow "better" and that people objecting what goes on at AAA aren't "right in their minds". I don't take this kind of cr@p from anyone. You don't want to cross me? Then think before your post and look at the choice of your words. Nuff said ... and I am still diplomatic.

tater - If I'm not completely mistaken the software Maddox Games used to create maps (commonly known as "Mapping Tool") is a commercial product of some obscure russian company. Maddox Games licensed its use so "opening" it or parts of it may have been out of question right from the start.

[JG52Uther]

These threads never go anywhere,or achieve anything.

[Baron]

Well here a question that will probably hard to answer but i have to say.

Oleg I'm not playing with IL2 for quite some time and the question i want to ask is .. Why the peoples working to modify IL2 do a much much better work then your team ?


I take off my hat to the Moder team maps maker . and imagine this... a much better work with well less tools.

S~


Much better? Until for ex. the machingun/some engine sound is NOT taken straight out of CFS3 i wouldnt claim to much.

As for the other "great" mods, granted there are som noveltys thats nice(ish) ,that took, what..5 min each? (Changed canopy here, new tire sounds there and so on)


So until u actually know what u are talking about, have a nice day.

[Oktoberfest]

I'm not talking about pay-for-play-servers and not about purely admins, but if I'd count how many times the word "cheater" was written over the last week on Warclouds, for example... And I only flew a few sorties!


Yeah, beware with the word cheater... Once I said that to a P47 that took a lot of 108s from my 110, rolled then behind me not even smoking, and shot me down...

Fact is it was another P47 that got me and that was Elanski.

But sometimes it's just easier to say that....

[Feuerfalke]

LEXX, I really wonder how you know all these details if you don't play online. Some things from the social street-life just don't transfer into computer business.

For example:
There is no such thing as an enclosed community as you mention it. The modifications are publicly available - you don't even need to go to any pirate or illegal download area, if you invest a little search, you don't even need to register somewhere (as if that was, what makes a community 'closed').
With the same logic you could place a crate of handguns in the park and say "that is only for my dearest friends", who are old and wise enough to not do any harm with it.

I don't even doubt the intentions of the modders themselves. Infact I think most of them are very much dedicated to IL2, but that doesn't change the fact people are tempted to gain an advantage. And honestly, those who get banned are not the ones using the best mods. It's those you wouldn't expect it from.

[Feuerfalke]

Yeah, beware with the word cheater... Once I said that to a P47 that took a lot of 108s from my 110, rolled then behind me not even smoking, and shot me down...

Fact is it was another P47 that got me and that was Elanski.

But sometimes it's just easier to say that....

Correct. And you hear it a lot more often now, since everybody knows what is possible. :(

[tater]

csThor, the primary mapping tool is called the FMB. Really. It is turned on with no hacking/modding, either. YOU have altered the file used to change it to the tool, I'm certain (assuming you have "hacked" your conf.ini by changing anything).

Actually, for 3d parties, another primary tool (aside from Adobe Photoshop) are the tools to extract Space Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data (not at all related to il-2, and free to all).

tater

[Feuerfalke]

csThor, the primary mapping tool is called the FMB. Really. It is turned on with no hacking/modding, either. YOU have altered the file used to change it to the tool, I'm certain (assuming you have "hacked" your conf.ini by changing anything).

Actually, for 3d parties, another primary tool (aside from Adobe Photoshop) are the tools to extract Space Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data (not at all related to il-2, and free to all).

tater

The conf.ini is not a protected file, so you cannot hack it or crack it. You can modifiy it at best. Same is for missions. As those are created with the mission editor with locked objects and maps, it is not needed to remove file-encryption or protection-measures to create new missions or change them. For protected missions, that is something different again, but you cannot do that with unmodified editors.

[tater]

BTW, I think that the guys who are primarily interested in the PTO or Med, are probably somewhat "evangelical" regarding new maps for the simple reason that very few existed (Med), or very few were good/useful (PTO). As a result, they are excited, and want to share.

I don't think it's out of any sense of superiority, or that "only real simmers play with X, Y, and Z." It's wanting to share something they think is a good thing with others that might enjoy it.

Don't assume malice where it's likely exactly the opposite.

<S>

tater

PS, Feuerfalke, csThor suggested that there was some special map tool that was hacked from someone else to make maps. I was merely pointing out that this is not true, and the FMB is in fact the primary map tool. Not just for placing buildings, for placing terrains, making hills, and so forth. I know the conf.ini is not protected, I was making a joke since all that is required to enable map-building is a few changes to that file. (USING the changes is another matter entirely, but I was only discussing the tool to do so).

[LEXX]

csThor:: However you infered that people who do not use mods are not "true" simmers in a very underhanded way.
Perhaps I did, and if so I was sloppy as usual.

For the record, a true Online play community, whether they use mods or not, is a group of people that does not fall apart in anger over something as inanimate and non-living as little mods in a little computer game. This is what a social community is all about.

[tater]

Ideally there would be a solution that would allow both worlds to (happily) coexist (like the ability to fully "lock" a version).

Locking a certain version is fine up to a point, but I have to say that having to fly stock Pacific maps to be online would be a major downgrade. I'd rather pick people more carefully to fly with, and have the best of both worlds.


tater

[Feuerfalke]

Ideally there would be a solution that would allow both worlds to (happily) coexist (like the ability to fully "lock" a version).

Locking a certain version is fine up to a point, but I have to say that having to fly stock Pacific maps to be online would be a major downgrade. I'd rather pick people more carefully to fly with, and have the best of both worlds.


tater

Yeah, but the bad thing is, we don't have that choice. ;)

[LEXX]

Feuerfalke:: LEXX, I really wonder how you know all these details if you don't play online. Some things from the social street-life just don't transfer into computer business.
Hi Falke. I'll take the two items in turn.

I know these details from (1) hearing about snotty gamer behavior in anonymous public servers and (2) having myself seen for years many of the "leading" anonymous public server computer gamers attack and insult Oleg's paying customers who only asked for either some additional modding abilities or for Oleg not to cripple his sim to prevent "cheating" -- an example is crippling the flight models for non-slider users by slowing elevator trim. This snotty anti-social computer gamer behavior seen among even "old timer" anonymous public server gamers is one reason so many Online players either go back to Offline play, retreat to private servers, or leave the sim entirely.

Social street-life may or may not transfer to computer business, but it translates directly to social interaction among Online players. Online players have always advertised that human vs human gameplay is superior to Offline play against the AI. Why? Because when played Online, the sim becomes real life social interaction, and not just a simulation anymore. Online play can add the only true hint of reality to a sim -- social interaction.

The flip side is that many anonymous public server players, after advertising that social interaction is the prime mover of Online play, refuse to admit that Online cheating is a social behavior that can only be consistently avoided through social awareness. When you play with society, you take risks, risks that some here don't want to talk about, so they blame the mods, or the modders and happy mod users, but never blame the cheaters since they can't find them. Somebody has to take the blame.

[tater]

While community is one (important) aspect of online play, it is far more than that, lexx.

The AI is pretty crappy, frankly. The reason it's better to play vs people is that people are both better AND worse than AI in important ways. They have real LOS issues, so you can actually surprise them (well, if the idiotic ability to hear anything but your own motor was removed). When you get in a real fight, they are not predictable (except maybe their target-fixation).

Even a few human players mixed among the AI (coop) makes a huge difference because the automatic tendency to fly vs AI in a way you know will win becomes ineffective... we all do it offline, it becomes habit. You KNOW a shallow turn will throw off the AI, they'll waste all their ammo astern of you. Try that vs a person, lol. If you know that even ONE of the AI is not AI, but real, you cannot do that behavior.

[LEXX]

Well yes, those are more technical aspects of social interaction I had in mind. Thanks for brining them up though tater, especially the mixing of multiple humans and AI together. One good one that I think I maybe might have possibly heard about being used Online is pretending to fly like AI, sucking in any opposing humoid player to a nice surprise.

[csThor]

Lexx - *holds out hand to shake* Your post cleared it up. The matter is settled from my side.

tater - The problem with humans is simply that they're (we're!) playing this game for enjoyment. And this means noone likes to be on the receiving end of a fighter's weapons and/or flying an aircraft that cannot defend itself or is an easy picking, which does stuff that's boring or unpopular. This results in a flurry of "adjustments":

- servers go for pure fighter vs fighter engagements
- planesets are being doctored to keep certain "groups" happy
- historical facts are being thrown out of the window for "player's convenience"

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The result of all of this is the extreme number of fighters and fighter-bombers compared to other aircraft classes as the Stukas, the bombers or dedicated ground-pounders (such as the namesake of the series). You don't see swarms of gunner-less Il-2s trying to destroy all artillery pieces in the target area on a 1942 map nor will you see a large formation of Stukas hunting tanks. These jobs are being done by fighter-bombers or destroyers because they can deal with the load of fighters and do not take that long to reach the target zone. The issue here is that people are unwilling to venture off the beaten tracks, even on so-called "historical servers". This is the primary reason why SoW will need to combine the strengths of the dedicated dogfight server with the ability of the COOPs to have moving AI units (aircraft and ground/sea objects) - to overcome the insane fighter and dogfight fixation. Otherwise it's always going to remain "Quake in the air" as opposed to a simulation of aerial warfare in WW2. You can't change the people - you have to change the rules and the environment.

[Feuerfalke]

Feuerfalke::
The flip side is that many anonymous public server players, after advertising that social interaction is the prime mover of Online play, refuse to admit that Online cheating is a social behavior that can only be consistently avoided through social awareness. When you play with society, you take risks, risks that some here don't want to talk about, so they blame the mods, or the modders and happy mod users, but never blame the cheaters since they can't find them. Somebody has to take the blame.

And I think that is the problem here. Nobody blames the modders of anything except their behavior towards Oleg and his team, which has become very obvious several times in this thread and for cracking a protected game and making this crack officially available. That is against the law, that is unfair and it is wrong.

But you have to admit (and already did) that cheating is a problem and that we wouldn't have that problem, if this whole thing hadn't become much larger than most expected.
And when I speak of online-cheating, I do not talking about the "3 or 4" bohoo-hidden top secret servers for pay-for-play registered members only. We're talking about these "100" baddy worn-out-ugly-dirty servers on Hyperlobby, ASE and UBI. You cannot control who's joining and you cannot know everybody online, as well as you cannot really ban them effectively. So, this whole social control thing simply doesn't apply. The same way you cannot check everybodies pockets going down your street.
And the problem is not, that I'm feeling cheated everyday, but because it's in the minds of people you play with.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

2. We're not talking about new sounds being added to the game. The so-called soundmod includes modifications to the FM, cockpits, effects, physics, view-system, etc.

I'm going to have to correct you on this. Your research is not very thorough. The sound mod changes only sounds, adds cockpits to a few AI planes to make them flyable, and that is ALL. No FM's are touched in sound mod, no physics, no effects, no view system, just what I listed. There are many mods, most are confused and think the sound mod does all but it doesn't. There are mods for visual effects, some for maps, some cockpit retexturing (these are amazing), some view mods (6dof), but there are NO FM MODS and no physics mods. There are some new AC with new FM but these are tottally new aircraft that have thier own slot therefore cannot be used online unless the host specifically add them to the missions so in this case new FM is not cheating. Those in charge at AAA have been very careful to avoid afecting online play and have walked a very fine and difficult line to do so. This is why it is upsetting when folks get thier facts wrong because all the effort to do this right goes down the drain when people who don't look for themselves hear these things and assume we are cheating by default of using the soundmod.

[tater]

One, I think that the notion that cheating is new is... naive.

Two, as to csThor's post (no mention of my reply before regarding maps? ;) ), there is a place for mods in the online world in the aspect of reality that you allude to.

One problem we see is that planes have a wide array of loads available, and the servers really don;t have a good way of controlling player load CHOICE.

So we have Zeros with 250kg bombs, even though that load was simply not used except for suicide planes. As a result, online (DF) you see bombed up Zeros all the time at the expense of Vals. The US planes are worse since they all had HUGE (by japanese standards) bomb loads. Why take a bomber when you can take more bombs (and rockets) in a fighter bomber?

Heavies? Not even possible without having cockpits off, which is far worse "cheating" than the theoretical plane with the HP increased a few % for an "edge" that is talked about (but unavailable as a mod).

Mods could add variant planes that are unchanged except deleted loads. Pure fighter US planes, for example, naught but their guns and drop tanks. Ditto japanese planes (or whatever side). Sticking a b-25 cockpit in a B-17 allows cockpits-on servers to have heavies. Given good mission design, targets can be set up for a sort of area bombing that requires loads of bombers (ZvW has messed with this, and you see bettys used).

There is certainly room for online improvement with careful additions, IMO.

The trust factor is still there, use honorable squads as a baseline, and play with them.

<EDIT> well said (and entirely true), Urufu!

[Feuerfalke]

I'm going to have to correct you on this. Your research is not very thorough. The sound mod changes only sounds, adds cockpits to a few AI planes to make them flyable, and that is ALL. No FM's are touched in sound mod, no physics, no effects, no view system, just what I listed. There are many mods, most are confused and think the sound mod does all but it doesn't. There are mods for visual effects, some for maps, some cockpit retexturing (these are amazing), some view mods (6dof), but there are NO FM MODS and no physics mods. There are some new AC with new FM but these are tottally new aircraft that have thier own slot therefore cannot be used online unless the host specifically add them to the missions so in this case new FM is not cheating. Those in charge at AAA have been very careful to avoid afecting online play and have walked a very fine and difficult line to do so. This is why it is upsetting when folks get thier facts wrong because all the effort to do this right goes down the drain when people who don't look for themselves hear these things and assume we are cheating by default of using the soundmod.

The crack was made public as "soundmod" and it replaced the original sound mostly by sounds taken from CFS (and EAW IIRC). Considering the latest Engl. Soundmod (v.093) includes 14 flyable AI-planes with modified FMs (copied from the flyable counterparts), I just wanted to point out, that it is no longer just a replacement of ingame-soundfiles, but a key to the programming-structure itself. I didn't mean to advertise all components you can install additionally.
It's true, that over at AAA people are VERY carefully what mods they support and which they ban or delete. However, in the beta-section are a couple of new posts now and then, that have a direct effect on FM, munitions-loadout, etc. Increasing dot-range and Icon-Range is also freely available.

What the modders don't want so see or simply ignore is the fact, though, that there are other websites, squadrons and groups offering a whole lot of very much different modifications, that go far beyond that.

As I posted before: I don't think the modders at AAA are cheating or intending to lead other to that aspect of online-gaming, but they opened the Pandorras Box and the more popular the modifications on AAA get, the more people get attention to the ability to change the code and will use that for their own purpose.

[tater]

The FMs are copied from the NON-flyable planes that had the cockpits added. The FMs are not changed at all. Ie, add a flyable B-17 by sticking a cockpit in it. FM remains the same as AI B-17.

[csThor]

tater - I did not respond to it as I am not "in the know" about the mapping tool (= I never saw it) nor do I know (and care) about the way "your" maps are being made. I know part of the legit process and so I said how things look from my perspective.

Regarding the rest of your post: I do not care for the operations of the "heavies" as my prime area of interest is the eastern front (so I see no need for additional planes). Basically what the Il-2 engine does best (tactical operations in a limited area). It's certainly true that there are no elegant ways of limiting user loadouts - the way SC and FBD do it is rather clumsy IMO but at least they offer the chance. IMO a player has to update himself/herself on the latest "rules and regulations" regarding the maps played on the server. Those who ignore the briefing and complain about kicks because of wrong loadouts or planes do not deserve any sympathy. I'm certainly not in favor of catering to the "most brain-dead users". You want to play? Then RTFM! :twisted:

[tater]

To me, and I'm strictly talking online for the moment, it requires a cost/benefit analysis. What is the actual incidence of cheating compared to the benefits?

Try as they might, DF maps (even on good servers) are simply not terribly historical. The spawn at will paradigm is inconsistent with realistic play, as is the lack of many types of planes required for context that we can only see in coops.

tater

[LEXX]

Falke, perhaps tater says it better than I...

tater:: The trust factor is still there, use honorable squads as a baseline, and play with them.
Granted, there is something to be said for wide open anonymous Online gaming without a fear of cheating; for one thing that's where I'd guess Newbies would go first before they find friends in the private squads. One of the problems with private servers with trusted people using mods nor not is schedule timing among the people -- but that leads us back to the best things in life take time and effort. However, so far Oleg has not been able to allow, as tater says, the best of both worlds.

Thanks Thor. The whole kill score system seems to encourage fighter vs fighter Dogfight. Oleg has always favoured Online Dogfight, at least until recently as far as I know. I think a good Online War, or Lowengrin's Offline dynamic campaigns, give primary importance to destroying opposing forces or supplies on the ground, of which fighters are useful in either enabling or preventing these ground attacks. The whole issue is confused in the community by Oleg's personal favoritism toward simple Online Dogfight shooter gaming. About 2 years ago, Oleg poasted at ubi that "dynamic campaigns are arcade" but I hope he is learning new things for his new sim. Simulating air warfare through a dynamic campaign depends on success or failure of ground attack or heavy strategic strike aircraft. It seems to me that a static campaign, either Online or Offline, does not require bombers to succeed or fail in their missions.

Oleg or 1C could pay me a Monthly Fee and I still would not join a static Online War with a fixed outcome.

[csThor]

My opposition is not about the cheat-discussion but because of personal experiences and a somewhat "sarcastic" outlook on people in general. Meaning I do not trust "the people" not to mess up everything in the worst possible way. I like centralization and combined efforts under a sensible and responsible management and do not like the "watering can" of "everything goes". Having said that I think the cheater issue is less about cheating itself but about the impression of someone cheating, the suspicions and the resulting bad blood. That could (and will) crack "the community".

Since Lexx posted while I was typing:

Actually I have some serious issues with the way DCG portrays a "dynamic campaign". Namely the influence players have on the frontline. I find that part way overdone, a simplification of factors which are outside the scope of a simple flight simulation. Most of these have to do with strategical decisions of a high command, of wartime economics and supply on a much broader scale.

[Bearcat]

Bearcat, I mean maps that started from NOTHING, not retextures of existing maps.
Some of the maps alluded to are not based AT ALL on any stock maps. They were created from whole cloth (and space shuttle radar topography mission data).
they are not stretching existing maps, they are not redecorating existing maps, they are... NEW MAPS.
The only stuff reused are textures/objects since there is already a substantial library of decent textures and objects. Reusing stock textures (most all the stock maps, do, too) is desirable since it increases compatibility for anyone who wishes minimal changes. You can absolutely ONLY load new maps as mods, for example.


Thanks for the 411 Tater.. I did not know that. That sounds interesting and IMO opens up even more reasons for some kind of resolution oriented discussion.

As for the whole offline v s online , cheating or not BS.. well I think we all have heard enough of that cr@p over the past few months to last me a while and frankly I don't think that nonsense even belongs in any discussion of the subject, particularly with the hindsight of the past few months. The online world has not collapsed upon itself into a frenzy of UFOs and the online community has not abandoned the sim due to it's "ruin" by being hacked.

[tater]

True, csThor, but then again, the people willing to RTFM and actually try to play in a historical way (waiting to fly in a group, etc) are also unlikely to cheat. It's not about the winning, it's about the simulation/immersion.

My very favorite missions (online or off) are those where I have to nurse my plane back with some damage. I'd rather be killed in a realistic mission than live with a bunch of pelts in an unrealistic one.

tater

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

The FMs are copied from the NON-flyable planes that had the cockpits added. The FMs are not changed at all. Ie, add a flyable B-17 by sticking a cockpit in it. FM remains the same as AI B-17.


This is correct, FM's are not touched in sound mod or any other AI-made-flyable planes. They use the same FM that the AI use that was already in place. Even when this is not preferable as in the case of the avenger, it's a pain to fly and is not how it should be but since this is the FM the avenger has that is what we are stuck with as no one at AAA wants FM's touched for obvious and good reasons. The only things done to these planes is the addition of the cockpit.

[tater]

I actually partially agree on the dynamic campaign stuff overly influenced by players. The real key to a realistic online experience is context.

DF maps try (and largely fail due to no fault on their part) to provide context. Real battles were mission based, and the pilots were not cats to be herded. they did what they were told.

Flying as a group is pretty much required.

Even coops will become boring as you play the same one over and over, though. That's really the point of a dynamic campaign. To try and provide a realistic context for missions that vary over time. You need to see the forest, and not the trees, though. Yes, the front may move too much, but what matters is not winning the war, but the answers to specific querstions:

"Are the missions so generated plausible?"

"Do the players have to chose a realisitc plane set to achieve their mission goals?"

That sort of thing.

Regarding the tactical nature of the sim (vs heavies), I'd argue that il-2 is really ONLY a fighter sim. The DMs for ground targets are poor. The AI for ground units (ships in particular) is nonexistent. CAS aircraft, IMO, are window dressing in il-2. When seen from the perspective of a fighter pilot, they provide targets, and a context for the air to air battles. Once inside a ground attack plane, you are in an "arcade game" IMO.

The usual response is that "it's a flight sim, not a tank/ship/infantry/etc sim!" That is true up until the point you attack a target on the ground.

Certainly, the DMs for ground targets can be simplified in many cases. Ships, OTOH, no. If a ship is any less complicated than the most complicated plane in terms of AI/DM, it's a cartoon IMO. Two flights of player B-25s can do to a convoy like the one in the Battle of the Bismark Sea what took hundreds of RL sorties to do. One sunk ship for every push of the pickle.

Or there is the massive damage done by bombs to the cities, a couple bombs will flatten many blocks. All and all, the ground battles are an abstration that is only good to provide context for dogfights, IMO. CAS is 2d rate (odd given the title of the game).

tater

[LEXX]

CsThor:: My opposition is not about the cheat-discussion but because of personal experiences and a somewhat "sarcastic" outlook on people in general. Meaning I do not trust "the people" not to mess up everything in the worst possible way.
Okay, now that is new. What are these personal experiences that went sour? I have great optimism and positive outlook on people in general when it comes to modding in the flight sim world, probably because if I don't like something, I don't have to use it, and I won't, and so any such "bad mods" are of no concern whatsoever -- they don't exist for me, although others may enjoy them for whatever reason. There is more than enough good stuff being made by modders in the open sims so we don't have to worry about any bad modding.

The problem I have is...an example...how in the world did Oleg totally mess up the Volga River on the Stalingrad map? Maybe its because of developer time constraints, which I fully understand, and is why the developers should focus on game engine development and advancement while the customers focus on gaming content through modding. That slip-up is something a modder with tater's or ianboy's fanatical fundamentalist attention to detail would never allow happen to their creations (tater radical fundamentalist about the Pacific, ianboys militant fundamentalist about the Norway).

[csThor]

Experience 1: European Air War

When I gave up in frustration was when there were 3 different FMs along with a devout group of worshippers who fought each other in page-long flamewars in various boards. Not to mention that "the modders" went down the same road as it currently goes at AAA - no coordination, no simplification of the installation process and certainly attempt at creating "packages". It all got sacrificed for the false god of diversity. I even remember a "campaign mod" which required you to download some 20 "mod planes" separately from separate websites. That was the point when I was fed up to the back teeth and uninstalled EAW.

Experience 2: Panzer Elite

Essentially the same as EAW (minus the FM, of course). Even though there were attempts at combining efforts into packs the coordination stopped at the borders of the tight-knit groups. Essentially Mod A (i.e. Britpack) could not be used when you wanted to play Mod B (i.e. Ostpack). Of course it didn't help that the developer (who was willing to cooperate with the various groups) went bancrupt at a critical time.

Plus of course the chore of CFS2. Never regretted spending money on software more than for this POS.

These experiences taught me that "free modding" is essentially an exercise in frustration and often more about "the fiddlers" than about "the players".

[LEXX]

Thor, that sounds believable. I always figured Oleg should open the sim except for aircraft modding, since if there is one thing Oleg does do fairly well, its aircraft modding, and he makes enough to make most everybody happy. Other things, not so well...

As far as the AAA site goes, they seem to have a policy of no modding existing FM/DM/WM. Now there are plans to add new aircraft, but leave Oleg's stuff untouched.

DCG is Lowengrin's campaings right? I never played either them or ...who...StarShoy campaigns (is that DGEN)? What does DCG do, if anything, to slant a campaign towards player centric? StrikeFighter campaigns are extremely player centric, which is why I never bothered to play one of their campaigns either. Shucks, its even worse, since the StrikeFighters sim offers no map-wide combat event recording such as Oleg's eventlog text file, so an independent dynamic campaign engine can't be created. Since I consider campaigns as important as aircraft, ...

FB/PF --- closed aircraft, open campaigns.
StrikeFighers -- open aircraft, closed campaigns.

Neither are open sims, and neither are fully closed sims, just partially open in different ways.

---------

Bearcat:: The online world has not collapsed upon itself into a frenzy of UFOs and the online community has not abandoned the sim due to it's "ruin" by being hacked.
But that claim or prediction was made in this thread, which is what set me off I guess.

btw, you had made those same two predictions for years at the ubi.com. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/Wink.gif

[csThor]

As far as the AAA site goes, they seem to have a policy of no modding existing FM/DM/WM. Now there are plans to add new aircraft, but leave Oleg's stuff untouched.

Ask yourself: How long will this remain policy? How many websites do allow fiddling with FM/DM issues (e.g. in eastern europe or asia)? How many players "feel" there's smething off with Plane ABC or Weapon XYZ and change values 'cause this or that book said so?
The admin's intentions may be laudable but it's rather naive to expect all people interested to abide these rules. The internet is about the lack of borders, about being partially uncontrollable. And this is exactly what is happening right at this moment. Or have you seen any input from russian players apart from cryptic comments that "these things have already been corrected"?

[tater]

I've never even seen a "this things have been corrected" thread. The closest thing to alterations that there are semi-common threads on are things like rebelting ammo (with types already made and in game). So far none has happened on AAA. The threads also get locked/deleted.

Hodge podge mods are temporary. Once things mature, I think you will see "supermods" that are one stop shopping (like GWX for SH3, or TM/RFB for SH4)

tater

[LEXX]

Well Thor, for those who would like to stay with Oleg's FM, they can do that. Its so easy, even a flight simmer can do it.

For those who wish to experiment with FM, apparently they now can. Assume a little better than what I think is your worst case of 100% of aircraft modders are "bad" -- lets assume 90% of aircraft modders are "bad" and would place XLR-99 rocket engine and Phoenix missiles on the P-51 Dora, but 10% of modders are interested in adding a decent Hs-123 for Eastern Front ground attack. I would use the products of the 10%, and if I flew Online, I would fly with or against them.

More important to me would be the AAA advances in grafix, sim functionality, and most important of all -- new maps, especially for Pacific and Eastern Front. New 3rd Party aircraft are not as important to me (in this sim). Now, in the StrikeFighters I totally depend on 3rd Party aircraft modders to make 1940s to 1960s SAC and PVO aircraft that have always been ignored by all combat sim developers everywhere. For strategic size maps and grafix effects matching early jet age strategic air warfare, I have to depend on myself.

[tater]

BTW, I am the least involved of the pacific mapping team. If the machine I can post with during the day ran il-2, that might be a different story :)

I'm no more fanatical, either :)

[GOZR]

Thx guys good to see the discussion going somewhere..

[LEXX]

Ya, and modding offers the possibility of Spanish Civil War. Oleg once poasted that he would personally love to make a SCW sim, but, I think, he doesn't have the time. Maybe the new modding could bring JG_52 Tuckie's Spanish Civil War project back home to FB, and away from DukeNuke...er...TargetWare Forever.

Below is the TargetWare thread on Tuckie's SCW work, but the last poast dates from early 2007, so it may be dead.

~> http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=196&start=100

Interestingly, modder interest in simulating the Spanish Civil War offers yet another contradiction to the (again) false claims made by hostile behaving anti-social FB/PF computer gamers that aircraft modders (1) only can make UFO's and (2) are not interested in researching military aviation history.

Indeed, by definition, a good modder must deeply research his or her subject of modelling.

[Xiola]

Thats it morons, just keep pushing Oleg towards the money from shallow Console games.

Rip his game apart so that he doesnt care anymore and we lose him to the big bucks of arcade games on the Playstation 29.

If these modders are so 'great' then why dont they make their own game? Oh I know, they cant because they CANT.

[GOZR]

Between critics and this, in my language i would say that.. this "IS" an insult..
Like we use to say.. C'est celui qui le dit qui l'est"

It remind me of a old engine bought years ago..