Best Dogfight Maneuver Ever???

[DoolittleRaider]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuipnDc7dms&feature=related

Best Dogfight Maneuver ever???? OR, CGI make-believe? It would appear that Lucas must have seen this 'documentary' clip (with its History Channel CGI), and had the same maneuver CGI'ed into his Red Tails movie. I didn't buy it when I first saw it on History Channel TV, nor recently in Red Tails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjNeOhi40AM&feature=youtu.be

If someone were to re-create this movie clip using IL-2, specifically this maneuver while successfully hitting the Bf109, it would make a great entry in the On-going "Cliffs of Dover and IL-2 Series Movie Competition" (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29389).

[SgtPappy]

I, too have wondered about this. Someone did it in a Yak-3 a while back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70wzAceUcm0

It's apparently possible in Aces High II as well in at leas the 109, P-51 and Spitfire. I'm waiting to see if someone can do it in at least the 4.11m P-51 or 109 here.

[4./JG53_Task]

This is make-believe hocus-pocus. You would stress the airframe, rip your wings off, or stall.

[Treetop64]

You can certainly snap-roll and stall an aircraft, but I would guess that at supremely optimistic best, it takes sheer dumb luck to actually get a shot off like that displayed on those clips. Besides, if an aircraft can actually stop instantly and change direction in mid-air like that without tearing itself apart then it must be made of solid iron.

I've said it before, but these recent History Channel documentaries are a joke. More and more you see stories being told more for entertainment value, virtually on a fantasy level, than for truthfully and accurately documenting historic events. The "Dogfights" series is a particularly blatant offender. This is especially sad considering that so many people's "knowledge" is based on what they see on TV and in movies.

[EZ1]

I tried that P51 manuver many times off-line, but I could never get it to recover--just when tumbling.

[WTE_Galway]

The WWII vets description does not match the video.

He seems to be describing throwing the aircraft into an extreme skid and firing as the pursuer overshot. Feasible but you leave yourself vulnerable, and its sheer good luck not skill if the pursuer flies through your line of fire.

The video instead shows the plane spinning once and then recovering. Seems unlikely.

On the other hand the red tails shot looks to me more like half a wing-over. A real wing-over would occupy a lot more vertical space and slow you down a lot, again leaving you vulnerable.

More importantly these are three entirely different maneuvers.



All a bit suspect, however it is worth noting that Luftwaffe ace pilot Hans Joachim Marseille was renowned for using spins to quickly and safely exit his attacks on allied Luftberry circles. So deliberate spinning in dogfights is not unheard of.

[Kittle]

Post stall maneuvers are not unheard of in the aerobatic realm of aviation. Do I think the maneuver is possible as shown in the video??? The pilot would have to have been near stall speed already to not break airplane parts. We must remember gents, the pilots of WWII didn't treat their kites the same way pilots treat warbirds today. They treated them more like we treat Honda Civics from the 1990 era :D Bent frames and popped rivets were not uncommon, as the skid was a vital part of evasion in this era. We shouldn't discount everything we see on TV as impossible from out perspective.

[Ra'Kaan]

Ah interesting.

I recently viewed all of the History Channel Dogfights series.

I have yet to try this maneuver, but after I saw that episode I have been meaning to try to "attempt" it in IL-2.

I can, however, tell you exactly what will happen in a P-51 in this game :grin:

One wing will stall out dumping me into an ir-recoverable stall / spin / tumble into the ground. Every time.

I will have to re-watch the episode, because I think I recall hearing the pilot interviewed describe this maneuver as something that he had practiced at least a few times before his miraculous shot in combat. I remember thinking "wow, when did these guys have time to get to altitude and practice hair brained maneuvers like that?!"

Maybe I can fly this weekend and try it out. lol Wish me luck...

[IceFire]

I'm pretty sure that the movie versions of this maneuver are totally off. It just... looks wrong.

[MrBaato]

Looks as real as Captain America to me ;)

a stall can be somewhat controlled, but it's totally exaggerated of course

[DKoor]

I'm pretty sure that the movie versions of this maneuver are totally off. It just... looks wrong.
+1
Looks wrong because its impossible according to the physics in this world.:)

Luckily game models this very well, even much less optimistic evasion will end up in stall and turkey shot for your opponent let alone trying something like this.

[swiss]

We shouldn't discount everything we see on TV as impossible from out perspective.


Chuck Norris?

[T}{OR]

When you listen closely what Richard Candelaria is saying it is easy to see how poorly the Dogfights show the maneuver. Especially the part in which he is describing how the (K-14) gunsight was too slow. From what I understood, he had much more altitude at his disposal. All in all it was 1 in a 100 shot.

When you see it re-done in Red Tails, it looks 10 times more unreal.


Chuck Norris?

The only logical explanation.

[rakinroll]

Newton says that it is impossible... :D

[DoolittleRaider]

Ah interesting.

I recently viewed all of the History Channel Dogfights series.
...
Maybe I can fly this weekend and try it out. lol Wish me luck...

I am hoping that some folks might try to make a Movie (for the ongoing Movie Competition (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29389)) using clips from one of the History Channel Dogfight shows. I think that IL-2 (with Mods) and definitely Cliffs of Dover could be used to present Visuals at least as realistic as the expensive HC CGI aircraft, and definitely more realistically maneuvering, physics effects,etc. Such a movie could simply re-create one of the Dogfights in the HC Series, but do so much better....keeping the Movie entry down to 10 minutes or less, though. The 30 minute HC shows always had repeats of the visuals, several repeats of the same clips. Blatantly obvious too. When they were stretching a possible 3-5 minute dogfight to 30 minutes, they had no choice I guess, as it would have been WAY too expensive to do mutiple CGI scenes from different perspectives....but, with IL-2 Trks, that could be done easily.

Such an IL-2 Movie entry might show some HC Dogfight footage interspersed with IL-2 'footage', for comparison, as just one approach.

So...there's the challenge! Jump into the Movie Competition (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29389)...you've got 3 month to create your movie. Re-create the Red Tails scene/maneuver and you might get a special award.....no promises though.

DR

P.S. Remember that no Icons, text, HUD, etc will be permitted in a Movie Competition (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29389) entry.

[IceFire]

+1
Looks wrong because its impossible according to the physics in this world.:)

Luckily game models this very well, even much less optimistic evasion will end up in stall and turkey shot for your opponent let alone trying something like this.

Perhaps we need to recreate this using physics ... on another world! :)

[K_Freddie]

I have a Snap-Roll type move, but it's done going into the stall, with a stall recovery within half a roll followed by a pull out.. I use it mainly to get out of trouble.
Have old video of 3 online track sections on 3 different a/c... works on any a/c ;)

To do a full 180 nearly horizontal turn on the rudder within, even 5 seconds.. well that's for a magician = optical illusion :)

These new air combat films are going to be a dissapointment.. sad that they cannot get their facts right.