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View Full Version : Weapons effects not matching hits?


Jumoschwanz
01-30-2012, 01:44 PM
My main tool for aiming guns and cannons of the fighter aircraft is watching tracers and the hits landing on the opponents aircraft.

With the 4.11 patch I have seen the visual effects of hits not matching the damage to the aircraft receiving them.

I was flying an La5fn and received a hit from a Bf109 with a mk108 cannon and there was no visual effect or effect to the FM of the La5, I kept right on fighting and shot the other guy down, I am sure he was disappointed.

On the same server map another La5fn took more than one hit from an FW190A8 armed with dual mk108s in the wings and the same thing happened, no visual damage or change in the La5s ability to fly.

This is not limited to allied aircraft, as I was flying a Bf109 with the single 20mm nose cannon and did a head-on with an IL2 Sturmovik, which landed a large cannon hit on my aircraft, which again had no effect on the Bf109 visually or with it's flight model, and a P-39 with the 37mm cannon also landed a good visual hit on another Bf109 of mine to no effect.

When you see one or more 30-37mm cannon hits on your opponent you might expect some damage that will change the dynamic of the fight you are engaged in, but this is an assumption I am not going to make too often in the future as apparently seeing is not believing in IL2 land these days.....

I have not noticed this with 20mm or machine-gun visual effects, only the large cannons that some axis and allied aircraft are armed with.

S!

FC99
01-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Only reliable tests and reports regarding the damage are those made offline. Online, anything is possible due to lag and packet losses.

Jumoschwanz
01-30-2012, 02:36 PM
Okay, that is good enough for me!


S!

Robert
01-30-2012, 03:47 PM
Lately, I've been doing a lot of La5 flying off line against 109s. I can assure you there is DM and FM modeled when I'm hit. I see and felt both...... all too often. Way too often.LOL

Luno13
01-30-2012, 04:40 PM
You're also less likely to notice this packet loss if you're coming under a hail of hundreds of bullets from 8 machine guns :) From one or two cannon with low firing rates and which only happen to land a single hit, you will notice right away when something's wrong with that hit.

You can also see this effect when one guy collides with you, yet keeps flying, unaffected.

BadAim
01-30-2012, 04:47 PM
I wonder if the extra information being transferred with the new patch could be pushing already marginal connections "over the edge" to packet loss. I'm not even sure if there is all that much difference. One thing for sure is I've seen very strange things online plenty of times before. (this is one of the reasons I take "cheating" reports with a grain of salt)

Edit: Damn good point Luno!

T}{OR
01-30-2012, 06:27 PM
I should think not. All the above mentioned I have personally witnessed many times online. Offline is the way to test it.

swiss
01-30-2012, 06:40 PM
Okay, that is good enough for me!
S!

This also means the hits displayed on your screen must be confirmed by the server, often this is not going to happen, due to lag.
Have you ever been invisible online? ;)

Jumoschwanz
01-30-2012, 09:04 PM
I am sure these axis pilots were pissed. I was flying this La5fn and a 109 hit me well with a mk108, then I proceeded to outmaneuver him and shoot his wing off:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8739/cannonhits2.jpg

This is a FW190A8 landing at least two mk108 hits on La5fn, neither of these aircraft are mine, just two others on the server. After these hits the La5 was fine and went about fighting and shooting etc.. I thought it was extra-unusual to take a beating like this and not have it register:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/528/cannonhits1.jpg

For me I could understand because I am in USA playing from around the world on a Russian server. If it is common on this server then maybe the server simply does not have a lot of bandwidth.....

In most cases we all managed to get the job at hand finished.

So I am sure there is no problem here besides what Fatcat is talking about, it is not an issue, but it is still interesting to see the odd things that can happen when playing online....

S!

IceFire
01-31-2012, 03:27 AM
I've seen this happening for a long time. I'm not sure if 4.11 makes it worse but maybe it's just a placebo? I honestly don't know. Just the other day I was flying a P-38 in 4.10.1 and got hit with a MK108 shell and absolutely nothing happened. He hit me three more times several seconds later and all of those were devastating but that first hit (in that case) didn't do anything.

SaQSoN
01-31-2012, 06:24 AM
On-line each player in the same session sees somewhat different picture because of the net lag (which is time, required data to pass from one player to other(s)). All damage and hits are calculated on computer of the player, who fired the projectile. I.e. player A fires a lead shot at player B and, his shells (on his PC) hit the target fine. At the same time player B may see player A firing with not enough lead and all his shot are miss. Next moment Player A's PC calculates damage, inflicted to B and sends it to B. So, what does B sees? A visually missed him, but still he gets destroyed.

Now, same situation, but A makes too much lead. On his PC he misses B, but due to lag B may see A's projectiles passing right through his plane, without hitting it.

Or, there may be a different situation, where both players play with minimal lag, and both see very close picture on their screens. But, for whatever reason, there happens lag fluctuation at the moment, both see hits on B, but the damage was not transferred yet (due to increased lag, or packet loss). So, B, despite getting visually hit, doesn't receive damage immediately. Instead, the damage from, say, 3-4 hits, separated in time, comes to B all at once, destroying him instantly. So, other players see 3 hits, which do not inflict any damage and then single 4th hit, which has effect of 4 simulations hits.

Sometimes, this damage packets may not come at all, so everybody see hits on B, but he isn't hurt, because packets with information about damage, A inflicted on B did not come from A (where lost).

That is why visual representation not always match actual events in the on-line game, or situation in the off-line session.

Korn
01-31-2012, 11:22 AM
I flew i bunch of quick missions a couple of days before and managed to break an 109F4 in two with just two-three hits from a La-5. This happened a few times in a row so i made a track to show my squad mates for a laugh.

This is just an edited pic but i have the ntrk for it:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zgt0t4.jpg

I'm not one to whine, but the La-5 series weapons always seemed somewhat strange.

jermin
01-31-2012, 11:54 AM
Yeah, and they give me a feeling that they are made of titanium. 1 MK108 hit is usually not enough to take out their combat ability.

IceFire
01-31-2012, 11:36 PM
I flew i bunch of quick missions a couple of days before and managed to break an 109F4 in two with just two-three hits from a La-5. This happened a few times in a row so i made a track to show my squad mates for a laugh.

This is just an edited pic but i have the ntrk for it:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zgt0t4.jpg

I'm not one to whine, but the La-5 series weapons always seemed somewhat strange.

Any cannon armed aircraft can do that to the earlier 109s. Spitfires, Yaks, La... I did it 109 versus 109 to similar effect as well :) Some planes (and models of planes) seem more likely to loose their entire tail. The F6F Hellcat is another...

WTE_Galway
02-01-2012, 12:04 AM
I've seen this happening for a long time. I'm not sure if 4.11 makes it worse but maybe it's just a placebo? I honestly don't know. Just the other day I was flying a P-38 in 4.10.1 and got hit with a MK108 shell and absolutely nothing happened. He hit me three more times several seconds later and all of those were devastating but that first hit (in that case) didn't do anything.

Yet more evidence of partisan sabotage of mk108 production. Conscripted labor from the work camps can be sooo unreliable sometimes.

IceFire
02-01-2012, 01:35 AM
Yet more evidence of partisan sabotage of mk108 production. Conscripted labor from the work camps can be sooo unreliable sometimes.

The first shell was filled with popcorn :)

Jumoschwanz
02-01-2012, 01:39 AM
A long time ago I saw the specs on the WWII 20mm cannons, the Hispano's that the Spit, Tempy and p-38 etc. used were the most powerful, the Russians were a bit weaker and the german mg151 was third, the mgff fourth.

Somewhere I have a track where I took a long shot at an A-20 of probably almost a kilometer with a Bf109f4 on Spits vs. 109s and I blew the tail right off of it. Could not have hit it with any more than a round or two.

I have also blown La-5s in half or simply turned them into fireballs by hitting them apparently in the fuel tank with one quick burst from a 109, so I don't think there is anything funny going on except for the online packet loss etc. and other gremlins that I have no problem living with, it is simply interesting to learn about what causes them, thank-you.....

II/JG54_Emil
02-01-2012, 10:26 AM
This is a long known "problem".
And it is a FC99 says a multifactorial "problem".
It´s depending on whether you are online/offline, on the damage model the weapons characteristics, selective memories.

I the described situation -LaFN vs 109- it´s all of them.

In the addressed problem of the gunpower or effectiveness, historically a Mk108 should need 1,046 hits on a average fighter to down it.
Down it means the plane is so badly damaged that either the pilots ditches/crashes, bails or is killed.

The historical average MG151/20mm hits necessary to down a fighter are 4, stated by the Luftwaffe.

Korn
02-01-2012, 12:21 PM
Any cannon armed aircraft can do that to the earlier 109s. Spitfires, Yaks, La... I did it 109 versus 109 to similar effect as well :) Some planes (and models of planes) seem more likely to loose their entire tail. The F6F Hellcat is another...
I flew the Spit against the same 109F4 a lot more then Lavochkin and never noticed this effect (remember, i'm talking 2-3 hits only). I'll try cannons only with Spit / P-400 to see if the Hispano does it as well.

IceFire
02-01-2012, 10:19 PM
I flew the Spit against the same 109F4 a lot more then Lavochkin and never noticed this effect (remember, i'm talking 2-3 hits only). I'll try cannons only with Spit / P-400 to see if the Hispano does it as well.

If you're going for the effect with the Spitfire... try and go for the "perfect" convergence hit on the tail section. I see it less with the Spitfire as I'm usually inside my convergence distance quickly and I end up shooting the wingroots. But... perfect convergence on the tail and off it will come. It's just easier because the La-5 has two 20mm cannons mounted very close to each other.

Luno13
02-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Even if it is accurate, the Il-2 DM can do some strange things. I remember flying a Bf-109 E-4 against LaGGs in FB. One mission, I emptied my entire machine-gun belt into it with no effect. Another mission, I clicked off a couple rounds from the machine guns (no cannon) from long range and blew the tail right off with what must have been just a couple hits.

I remember reading that the cannon shells don't explode on impact with the fuselage, but inside it, bursting out all the rivets, and allowing the skin and stringers to come undone. This is one reason why fabric-covered fuselages were so tough (think SM.79 and Hurricane).

I think that the spontaneous flames each time the 109's tail comes off over-does the effect, however. I realize the fuel tank is back there, but it doesn't have to happen every time.

Last thought: Il-2 renders lopped-off parts a bit differently than what we would expect from reality. If two rounds hit the wing spar at the root, we might see the entire wing fold over as the plane spirals in. Instead, we fire two rounds at the root, and the wing disintegrates into 3 main parts, and ailerons, and flaps, and landing gear, etc. Those surgically precise "cuts" therefore look like being hit with a sledgehammer.

At least CoD does it right, but it would be sweet if Il-2 could too.

WTE_Galway
02-01-2012, 10:55 PM
Last thought: Il-2 renders lopped-off parts a bit differently than what we would expect from reality. If two rounds hit the wing spar at the root, we might see the entire wing fold over as the plane spirals in. Instead, we fire two rounds at the root, and the wing disintegrates into 3 main parts, and ailerons, and flaps, and landing gear, etc. Those surgically precise "cuts" therefore look like being hit with a sledgehammer.



If you want to get picky with the visual effects when destroying aircraft, the really obvious flaw is the way explosions randomly clone aircraft parts so you end up with stuff like two engines or fuselage center sections.

Of course you normally do not notice unless you are replaying a track as it all happens too quickly.

Erkki
02-02-2012, 07:47 AM
Hello Jumo;

Il-2 mp works a bit different to most other games. Hits you shoot yourself are hits, unless packetloss prevents them from reaching server. Effects of those hits might hence come even seconds late. The same goes for collisions, which is why often the other plane survives collision completely intact(games collide only in the other player's game due to latency, warping etc.). The same goes for bombs and other weapons;:for other players you might seem to miss that tank by a hundred meters while on your screen you score a direct hit(and as soon as the bomb explodes, a tank kill).

However when you are yourself shot, you just see planes firing but the hits you see are not the same as the true ones. It goes the other way too: you might see traces fall behind you but still receive damage. The higher latencies the more obvious this is, up to the point where when one attacks a bomber and receives damage from gunner fire only after flying past the target...

This is also easily testable with a friend, over internet or LAN. In the extreme case, either one of you can unplug web cable while the other guy shoots. The shot plane will receive damage as soon as the connection is re-established...