Complex Engine Management - need some guidance

[Whacker]

Hello friends. I've had IL-2 for years now and loved it since it came out.

To make a very long story short, with the 4.11 patch and a new HOTAS joystick, I've been having some real troubles adjusting. I've never used complex engine management ever as I've found it a bit daunting and taking my hands off the joystick to search for keys to adjust things in the middle of flight and combat annoying. The new HOTAS stick and throttle with tons of shiny buttons has been wonderful, with 4.10 it was great and I got the inclination now and then to futz around with CEM. With the new flight models in 4.11 it seems I may not have much of a choice any more.

So... I've started to try flying with CEM turned on. It's been a nightmare for me. I've read a number of guides, including this outstanding one here at M4T: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=249 , and a few other bits and pieces that I can find in forums or through Google. I think I get the basics at least now.

My problem and what's utterly frustrating me to no end is I can't find ANY friggin' documentation on individual aircraft and engine characteristics. I've read somewhere that the F4U-1D's optimal powerband is between 2700-3000 rpm, yet with CEM on, 100% PP and 100% throttle it never goes above 2700 RPM, and even at that it overheats like crazy at rad 2. Turning CEM off and letting the PC control it, it keeps the RPM range around 2600-2500. I can't figure out the BF-109 or the FW-190 either.

Please please please please do NOT respond and say "Just get in the plane and figure it out". I do not work like that, never have and never will, my personality doesn't work like that. I have never been good at extrapolating things or figuring things out with zero background or prior information. I am exceedingly good at taking instructions and data and implementing them, though. Nor do I wish to devote dozens of hours to a single aircraft just flying around without enemies trying to figure out the engine, not that I would be able to do so to begin with. I also don't fly one aircraft exclusively, I enjoy variety and flying all of them.

Hence why I am asking ya'll for some guidance here. I've tried Google, I've looked at IL-2 Compare, I've looked through the manuals that come with the game and the patches, I've looked for information on M4T, and I'm coming up dry. If somebody knows where I can look up this kind of data for the game, then please point me in the right direction. If this doesn't exist, then again I would appreciate someone confirming this, in which case I guess I'll just suck it up and go back to flying with CEM off.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I definitely am. Thanks in advance for any help that ya'll can give.

[Luno13]

The instruments in the game aren't the most accurate, and don't always reflect what's really going on in the engine. Many are totally not functional, so it's not always practical to use the original manuals for operating the in-game engines.

Even though it's called "Complex Engine Management" it's still quite primitive, and you can do a lot of things that you shouldn't, although DT have done a lot to improve it.

In game you have something called Prop-pitch which is self explanatory. This is used to control RPMs. Higher RPMs are achieved with a finer (lower) angle of pitch (ie, the propeller disk is flatter).

Power in the game controls manifold pressure, or boost, which is the pressure of the fuel-air mixture going into the engine.

A constant speed prop is among the most commonly used for aircraft in the game. With it, you set the RPMs and it will stay there, and will automatically compensate when you change manifold pressure or dive or climb.

Although Il-2 doesn't penalize for this, you generally want to keep the P-pitch higher than the Power. Otherwise you risk over-boosting and destroying the engine.

Each plane is different, and German aircraft have totally automatic systems, but a general rule of thumb is:

(Regime of flight: power - pitch)

Takeoff: 90-100
Cruise: 50-50 to 65-65
Combat cruise: 75-75 to 85-85
Combat emergency 100-100 to 110-100 or 110+WEP-100
Landing 30-100

In a dive, it's important to reduce p-pitch to prevent over-revving the engine (the prop acts like a big pinwheel). This also helps to reduce drag, allowing you do dive faster. In a climb, higher p-pitch is necessary.

I keep pitch at 100% on landing to allow myself to go to full throttle at a moment's notice, and go around from a botched landing approach.

Radiator is used to cool the engine, but opening the flaps causes drag, lowering top speed performance. If you keep your speed up, and power settings reasonable, you will generally not need to open them much, if at all.

Il-2 doesn't take Magnetos into account, so you can forget about them for now.

Mixture is the ratio of fuel and air going into the engine. "Rich" means more fuel, and "lean" means less. When flying at higher altitudes, you have to lean to keep the ratio the same (there's less air up there). However, most planes do this automatically, especially US types. It's also a good idea to over-rich to pump extra fuel into the engine to cool it down. Some of the fuel doesn't burn however, and you're not getting any extra power in an over-rich condition. In real life, doing this would foul up the spark plugs with soot fairly quickly, and mixture has to be adjusted often as conditions change.

Generally, in game, lean by 20% per 2000m.

Superchargers suck in more air for the engine, and is useful to help the engine breathe at higher altitudes. I don't have a table of values on hand, but I generally engage Stage 2 superchargers for most aircraft at 3000 meters. Many US aircraft have 3 stages, and so these are engaged at 2000 and 6000 meters respectively. Many planes have totally automatic systems, and you don't have to worry about them.

Hope this helps. Although you didn't want to hear it, you will have to spend time and practice with your favorite planes. A chart won't tell you how each one responds and feels at a certain power regime.

[MaxGunz]

It varies by plane but there is a better pitch for different combinations of power and speed. And once you are fast, 400kph or more, you can lower RPMs without losing speed if you were still accelerating when you did lower them. The slower you go with CSP, the higher you want the prop speed even for landing.

You can learn much by running solo at lower power 60%-80%, adjusting prop pitch while running yoyos. You won't be bumping against max speed and the worst drag so results of your handling will show more. The less power you learn to run well with, the better your energy management sense will become.

Don't cross-control any more than you have to. Always keep The Ball near center. Both are drag-increasers that can make open rads a minor problem.

And yes, it is much about the smoooooth control. To that extent there are things you can do.

- Practice flying (not combat) holding the stick with two fingers and thumb only.

- All the time, do not rest the weight of your hand and arm on the joystick. Do not rest your elbow on the table. Both will make your handling heavier. Keep checking, this is hard to do all the time.

- All the time, grip the stick lightly. This is very hard to do all the time during action. Only a cool head avoids a ham hand.

- Go into hardware and add a bunch of FILTER to your pitch axis. Give it a try when practicing flight. Sure, you may be 2/10's of a second slower between stick jerk and elevator movement (you can see right in the test box) but the idea is that you don't want to jerk the elevator!

- Practice just flying occasionally and every time you switch planes. Do this so you see how you are doing without distractions. Mouse the view down so you see the instruments and a little over the dash.

Keep checking The Ball until you are able to keep it near center without much if any thought. this is hardest in Spits as they have a Slip gauge wayyyy down on the lower right front panel. It is easiest on P-51's with the small ball at the base of the gunsight. In simulation it is much more important than IRL where slip pushes on the pilot.

[JtD]

My problem and what's utterly frustrating me to no end is I can't find ANY friggin' documentation on individual aircraft and engine characteristics. I've read somewhere that the F4U-1D's optimal powerband is between 2700-3000 rpm, yet with CEM on, 100% PP and 100% throttle it never goes above 2700 RPM...

You should look at the pilot notes again - the R-2800 as in the F4U is supposed to work at 2700 rpm at WEP setting, so the 2700 you get in game is what you can actually expect out of it.

Anyway, it appears you're giving a little too much attention to detail - for in game purposes it is mostly enough to know that 100% pitch will give you the highest rpm possible and also the best power output in almost all situations. My recommendation here is that you simply fly with whatever settings you want to have, and if the engine overheats you reduce power and pitch to a similar amount until it stops overheating. Unless you're flying on a hot map, most planes will work fine at 90% pitch and 90% power.
On the 109 and 190, don't bother adjusting pitch, leave it on auto and just reduce throttle.
Don't panic about the overheat message, it's merely an indication that the engine cannot work like that forever. It doesn't like permanent abuse, as in 100% pitch & WEP engaged, but if it overheats just slightly it will probably last longer than your fuel supply.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Whacker, here is a link which will help you a bit:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=6692

For Corsair, 2500 to 2800 rpms is the powerband, with decrease after 3000 rpms. Want to go thru it step by step, look me up at my server called WD Fights. It is a full real server with full CEM enabled, and we can switch over to 4.11 to help you out. That way you can learn step by step with direct instruction.

[Snake]

Where is this server, WD, because I can't find it at all!!!

[jermin]

I think it's called WB Flights Ops

[Epsilon Eridani]

100% pitch for taking off closed rads
Open rads roll back prop pitch when you are cruising, and the plane will have more lift,

Lower pitch when diving

lower pitch when landing

Listen to engine, when it sounds like it's idling, the balance is there. Watch prop as well, you'll see what I mean if you try this.

Good luck :c)
Another Rookie

[swiss]

100% pitch for taking off closed rads
Open rads roll back prop pitch when you are cruising, and the plane will have more lift,

Lower pitch when diving

lower pitch when landing

Listen to engine, when it sounds like it's idling, the balance is there. Watch prop as well, you'll see what I mean if you try this.

Good luck :c)
Another Rookie

Closed rad for takeoff?!
low pitch(%) for landing?!

[BadAim]

DT has made it so you have to fly more realistically, more like these planes that are simulated were flown in real life. Pilots in WWII did not fly around at max power and max speed all the time, their aircraft were life to them, and they treated them well (at least the ones who survived did).

The first three posts have a lot of useful information. You really have to spend some time with these planes though, to get the most out of them.

Remember that these aircraft that we make believe we're flying were the bleeding edge of technology in their time, and they were flown (for the most part) by highly trained technicians who quite often died trying to master their craft. (some of these planes killed their own pilots at an alarming rate)

As it gets more realistic, we simply have to work harder.

[Whacker]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I've been using Luno's suggestions here:

Takeoff: 90-100
Cruise: 50-50 to 65-65
Combat cruise: 75-75 to 85-85
Combat emergency 100-100 to 110-100 or 110+WEP-100
Landing 30-100

and it seems to be working well enough.

So how important is it to keep on top of supercharger settings? Say I'm in the F4U and I'm at higher alt at SC2 or 3, and end up in a dogfight that takes me down to below 5000 ft. Is being on the higher blower settings going to cause that much of an impact?

[JtD]

Yes, if you are in the wrong supercharger gear it may knock off a LOT of the planes performance. For instance, if you fly the F4U at sea level with SC gear 3, you'll lose about 100 km/h and 5 m/s in climb - that hurts a lot, it makes the plane worse than an A6M.

Also, in a higher supercharger gear you have the tendency to overheat more. So it's better to apply a little bit more power in a lower gear than to apply less power in a higher gear for as long as you can set power higher to maintain the desired performance. Of course, if you need 100% of the performance, you don't have that choice, but for cruising it should be considered.

[Jumoschwanz]

In real life, the effect of too much manifold pressure on any supercharged engine, be it a Porsche 911 or a P-51, is too exceed the ability of the fuel being used to work without detonation.

Running on methanol an internal combustion engine can take as much boost as it can mechanically stand before cylinder pressure pulls it apart, but regular petrol or gasoline has an octane rating and each of those ratings, 91 octane for instance, can only stand so much heat and pressure before instead of waiting for the timed ignition from a spark plug, it ignites spontaneously. This detonation can begin in more than one point in the engines combustion chamber and it produces super-sonic wave-fronts that collide with each other and produce enough force and energy to not only be heard outside the thick castings of the engine, the forces will blow engine parts to pieces, splitting cylinders and breaking pistons, combustion chambers and spark plugs.

So at high altitude when the air gets thin and air pressure and the amount of oxygen goes down, you either have to change the amount of fuel to match the amount of oxygen, or you have to cram more air into the engine to match the existing amount of fuel, or both! There is a specific fuel-air ratio that will give not only good power, but also good economy and it even cools the intake charge and engine a bit to prevent detonation. Too rich a mixture, meaning too much fuel for the available air, and the fuel that is not burned will get into the engine oil, make the engine run too cool and it will foul spark plugs and get in the way of clean burning, black soot comes out of the exhaust pipes!

If the mixture of the fuel is perfect for combustion or lean, where there is only enough fuel to perfectly match the number of oxygen molecules in the burning reaction, or if there is not enough fuel, then the engine will burn hot and either melt the pistons, burn the exhaust valve, or be destroyed by detonation.

The hotter the engine cylinder head, the cooler or less dense the intake charge has to be to prevent detonation. Supercharging intercoolers run the intake charge through radiators to cool it, because compressing air in a supercharger heats it up!

So here is the big trade off: The air is thin up high, so we compress the air to get the amount going in the engine back close to what it is closer to sea level, but when we compress it in the supercharger it heats up, and hot air is thinner and causes detonation, so we have to add more weight and complexity to the aircraft to install an intercooler and hopefully the added weight does not destroy the benefits of the intended use of the machine we are flying. We also have to install either manual or automatic devices to alter the fuel mixture to keep it correct for all the different air densities at all the different pressures and temperatures the outside air is to begin with.

Now you see why it is called COMPLICATED engine management. The ignition timing of the engine ideally even is altered to match different octanes of fuel and different temperatures.

This is why people with no mechanical aptitude or understanding simply can not get the most out of older internal combustion engines, especially high-performance ones.

Now in 2012, all your automobiles and other vehicles with an ICE have a computer which controls spark timing, fuel mixture and even valve timing and shifting of the transmission and supercharger wastegates. But in 1940 the only computer available to do all this was either by inventing complicated mechanical mechanisms such as the Diamler-Benz mechanical fuel injection, or the computer was simply in your head, which used your hands to flick switches and twirl knobs to keep all the above parameters in the correct range.....

S!

[K_Freddie]

There you go.. Now everybody, stop complaining and grab some books and turn yourselves into 'petrol-heads'..
:grin:

[BadAim]

Lots of good information in this thread. I vote for a lock and a sticky before it gets all screwed up. :)