G-Load info

[Aullido]

I am not sure if it has been talk about this before, I did a search before posting.

Can you include the g-load on the speed bar?. It is not like turning the cockpit like a modern jet HUD, but g-loads are feel by the pilot and we don't have any feedback.

I think it will useful for better energy manouvering and learning how much you need to pull the stick.

Thanks.

[Snuff_Pidgeon]

I think black outs & red outs explain g force & negetive g force pretty well no need for scale really.

[QuietMan]

I think black outs & red outs explain g force & negetive g force pretty well no need for scale really.

how long do you have to hold how many g to black out?

QuietMan

[Snuff_Pidgeon]

how long do you have to hold how many g to black out?

QuietMan
"If a force form 4 to 6 G is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout." In game you have a gradual blacking or redding out, so no need for a scale.

[IvanK]

P47 and P80 have G meters.

[II./JG1_Wilcke]

Physiological; short and overweight, high blood pressure, you can really crank the G on....

tall marathoner with low blood pressure....your out like a 20W bulb connected to 220 3-phase...

plus if its something you do everyday your body also compensates and develops tolerance.....remember arteries have muscular layers....

then its the amount of G that the platform can sustain some modern aerobatic aircraft can generate an enormous amount of G but are unable to sustain it for a punishingly long period of time.

Modern day fly-by-wire combat aircraft have computers that limit G loads, how fast they are generated and how long they are sustained....I suspect that if one were to "tweak" the computer the airframe could produce some really debilitating amounts of G....I mean a really bad case of hemorrhoids(not the worst thing to happen but still)....ouchie....

Aviation physiology is really interesting, actually physiology in itself is fascinating that is why I am in healthcare.

[ruxtmp]

"II./JG1_Wilcke....I mean a really bad case of hemorrhoids(not the worst thing to happen but still)....ouchie...."

The infamous or more appropriately notorious G-measles. Then there is always the chicken dance some do after they return to reality after nap time.

[Aullido]

I want something to know how hard I am pushing the plane. I don't fly an particular plane so I can't know how much apparent weight I am making from the stick position alone. This could be useful for knowing how much energy you are bleeding or for doing a sustained turn.

[bomath]

Some forcefeedback joystick would be useful; IL-2 is hands-down the best FF game since NFS-Porsche, it manages to convey some of the feeling from tight turns, stalls etc.
The problem is that (much like the blackout or the red veil) usually the effects come waaaay too late; that is if you push the plane that hard as to feel it in the joystick or to see the black veil...

I have a Logitech Force3D, superb FF effects but somewhat twitchy; the only serious alternative that I know of is Saytek EvoForce (http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/evoforce.htm).

[-Sulan-]

I think the change of the view perspective (ie, the more G's, the more your pilots head lowers)+force feedback+sound gives a good enough hint.
But a G-meter on the speedbar as an option would be very nice me thinks...

[Feuerfalke]

I think the change of the view perspective (ie, the more G's, the more your pilots head lowers)+force feedback+sound gives a good enough hint.
But a G-meter on the speedbar as an option would be very nice me thinks...

Agreed - the headmovement and the decreasing field of view are very good indicators for G-forces. Maybe we'll also see an effect on the audible sensors in BoB? AFAIK while blacking out you can hearing range slightly decreases, but when your vision is gone, you usually have a few seconds left, where you can at least partially control your movements, while you hear less and less until you finally pass out completely.
In real life, this sort of blackout is even more dangerous, as you will die after a few seconds exposed to this condition. AFAIK in IL2 it is only simulated that you not just wake up after you sustained that high Gs for a longer time.

[IvanK]

"In real life, this sort of blackout is even more dangerous"

I disagree. I spent 12 years of my life in the High environment. Few G events result in death ... unless you hit the ground in the "dark phase".

Many confuse Blackout with the relatively new phenomena of G LOC they are very different things.

What does it really look like ? The first phase is the Greying out phase. This appears as a relatively slow reduction in Field of view and reduction in clarity of vision. A good M1 strain manoeuver can just "Push" the reduced field of vision away...but only as long as you can hold the strain.

Increase the G (or sustain it) and eventually you loose vision however for a significant period you can still here and feel what is going on. You can still put control input in ... so a reduction of G is possible and a return to normal vision. You don't just loose the plot.

In the case of G LOC the whole process is a lot more rapid with a genuine loss of consciousness. Following a G LOC event the recovery time is significant (30 + seconds). Victims describe this recovery as a period of total dis orientation with little effective aircraft control being possible.So in effect for the entire G LOC period and recovery the aeroplane is in effect pilot less.

G LOC is relatively new as it only really came to be talked about with the advent of early relaxed stability fighters (F16,F20 etc.) Early on a number of hard to investigate crashes occurred the most public being the F20 display crash in Newfoundland. After the investigations G LOC became a real phenomena. G LOC in general is a result of large G forces being applied at a rate beyond the human body's capability to counter it. These G onset rates just could not be achieved by most conventional (i.e normal positive stability) aircraft. The advent of computer controlled fly by wire (yes no computer FBW exists as well) allowed relaxed stability. This coupled with computer assistance (G and AOA limiters) allowed incredible G onset rates to be generated with little fear of over stress or structural damage.

In a conventional aeroplane you need to "feed" the G on so as not to over stress the aeroplane. With a G limiter you can simply pull hard back on the stick as hard and as fast as you like with little fear of overstress or structural breakup. Couple this with relaxed stability and the G onset rate is eye watering. It is in this area where G LOC lives.

Few if any WWII aeroplanes had the ability to generate G at a rate fast enough to induce G LOC. What we see in IL2 is IMO quite well done and represents blackout not G LOC. Even in the IL2 blackout phase some control is possible (trim primarily). Personally I think it takes a little to long to restore normal vision in response to a reduction in G in IL2 but all in all its pretty good.

What would G read out bring to IL2 ? Other than in those aircraft that had G meters ? Apart from not being historically correct not much. In a fight (in a non G limiter aeroplane) pilots refer to the G meter to stay within structural limits. You don't generally use the G meter to gauge turn performance. How hard you turn is a function of the BFM problem you have to solve. Target motion across your field of view being a prime cue as to how hard you need to pull. In IL2 structural load limits are not part of the general FM (except in P51). In a G Limiter equipped aeroplane even G limits become a little academic. G meters are used for some short duration manoeuvers like a 4G pull in an air to ground weapons delivery manouever or a 4g pull in certain pitch events (TAC turns etc). Or a sly glance following a limiter pull to see that the limiter really did do its job :)

G meters are a fine performance instrument in the world of aerobatics. Or sustained turn demonstrations.

My 2Roubles worth

[Spinnetti]

"If a force form 4 to 6 G is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout." In game you have a gradual blacking or redding out, so no need for a scale.

No, not really true... I went up in a aerobatic plane and did sustained 6 g turns according to the cockpit Gee meter (not like minutes, but it wasn't that hard to take, and it was my first time experiencing it).. yea, it felt funny, and my arms and head got real heavy, but there was no risk of blacking out any time soon. Google on it, and people can take quite a bit more. Anyway, the game simulates (oversimulates?) that pretty good anyway as you mentioned.

[II./JG1_Wilcke]

No, not really true... I went up in a aerobatic plane and did sustained 6 g turns according to the cockpit Gee meter (not like minutes, but it wasn't that hard to take, and it was my first time experiencing it).. yea, it felt funny, and my arms and head got real heavy, but there was no risk of blacking out any time soon. Google on it, and people can take quite a bit more. Anyway, the game simulates (oversimulates?) that pretty good anyway as you mentioned.

Agreed, and with a daily dose of 6G's the body will physiologically adapt....really when the grey begins and you loose the color its just the airplane telling you to "let go of the stick dummy". I really don't know how I would implement this in a flight sim. I feel that some elements are realistic in IL-2 but others are rather....for the lack of a better word....unexplainable....I guess I would have to ask the developer what his rationale was for that...but then again. Time to move on.