Spitfire MkII for SoW...please

[Vigilant]

Before you all flame me, I have PM'ed Oleg with this view on the response

Originally Posted by Evgeny
also are you planning on including the Spitfire mkII? squadrons started conversion to them in September '40.
No.
Oleg, I am a bit dissapointed that you have decided not to include the MkII Spitfire - IF YOU THINK that it does not fall into the historical period you are intending to cover (ie. Jun-Oct 1940). For in fact, the first MkII's were first flown by 611 Sqn in August 1940, and 19, 74 & 266 Sqn's in September 1940.

That is almost half of No 12 Group RAF Fighter Command (aka "Big Wing"). And at this point you intend to give them MkI's.

Now I'm assuming if you know the significance of 15 September 1940 - the decisive point of the Battle of Britain - where RAF Fighter Command fought the action that decided the battle, that 59 or so MkII's were operational and fought during that decisive contest.

All I am saying here, is if you are intending to create this simulator with an accurate collection of aircraft during that period, you SHOULD include the MkII. Would it really be that difficult to do this, as essentially 1C would just need to alter the parameters to accommodate the Merlin XII engine (+110hp, better for climbing but slightly lower max speed) and that's pretty much it.

I hope you can understand why some of us are so passionate about this detail - if you didn't have the same reputation, I wouldn't have even asked.

Thanks for listening.

Feel free to throw bricks/bouquets...now

\me takes stage right door - runs into brick wall behind stage door - runs back across stage - dodges tomato - finally finds exit :wink:

[Feuerfalke]

As you posted yourself, those were the FIRST Spitfires MkII flown in those squadrons. Even if 4 or 5 Squads had a couple of them, doesn't mean half the No.12 Group RAF Fighter Command were flying them as regular units! And just because they had them doesn't mean they were using them in combat roles from day 1!

[csThor]

There's no word on the inclusion of the Bf 109 E-1 and E-4, the historically relevant versions mind you, so I guess that is the indicator for the chances of this request.

Not to mention the Bf 109 E-4/N or even the pre-series Bf 109 F-0 ;)

[Vigilant]

Feuerfalke, I agree not all of those Sqns would have had them operational, although some would and that's the point I'm trying to make here.

There's no word on the inclusion of the Bf 109 E-1 and E-4, the historically relevant versions mind you, so I guess that is the indicator for the chances of this request.

Not to mention the Bf 109 E-4/N or even the pre-series Bf 109 F-0 ;)
+1 - I would love to see 109 variants as you listed here.

Is it that hard? Anyway there's no harm in asking is there :wink:

[Feuerfalke]

Is it that hard?

Considering the details in SoW:BoB and the limited time - yes it is. :(

[Foo'bar]

Please keep in mind that after all we're talking about initial release. That doesn't mean that there isn't a chance left to get the requested planes in later releases.

[Vigilant]

Considering the details in SoW:BoB and the limited time - yes it is. :(
I find it funny that you can just quote that like you were Oleg himself - do you work for 1C?

Thanks Foo'bar for that view. I suppose some hope that this would come complete with all BoB aircraft, as long as at SOME stage they are included and we're not asked to shell out more for each one (bit of exagerration here) :roll:

[Skoshi Tiger]

In terms of features, the MkII was vertually identical to the late production MkI's. It had a slightly more powerful engine, had better climb, but slightly less speed than the early MkI's.

It might be hard for the 'Average Gamer' to notice the difference. ( I put myself into the category- Very Average if you ask me!). If they were going to the effort of including another plane, maybe something different would be better?

I know with Il2 a lot of people were complaining about how many spitfires were modelled and how hard it was to tell the difference.

[Feuerfalke]

I find it funny that you can just quote that like you were Oleg himself - do you work for 1C?

Thanks Foo'bar for that view. I suppose some hope that this would come complete with all BoB aircraft, as long as at SOME stage they are included and we're not asked to shell out more for each one (bit of exagerration here) :roll:

Why does everybody ask me, if I was a part of 1C, just because I understand some difficulties they have?
I want SoW:BoB to be released as much as everybody else. I'd just like to point out, that there are people wanting to release that product even more than we do: 1C !

So if you ask me wether to release BoB (hopefully) before christmas or risking to miss the date for including a Spit, a 110 C or D, I'd rather have BoB released now and addons with those planes. Where do you stop anyway? If you include the Spit Mk.II, you have to add a stronger plane for axis, too. You just can't cover the complete WW2. Just look at IL2 - there was only a fraction of the number of planes we have in 1946, yet it was the release that made this series so famous.

[Al Schlageter]

Not to mention the Bf 109 E-4/N or even the pre-series Bf 109 F-0 ;)
Didn't the F-0 have a tendency to loose its tail?

I have heard there was 3 staffels of E-4/Ns but have never come across an actual number. Besides the N engine was terribly unreliable and the required C3 fuel was scarce.

[Razer]

imho, I will be personally ecstatic with only a few in the initial release, followed by the remaining aircraft with future releases..

Looking @ the history of IL2 - i wouldnt be the least surprised;

That doesn't mean that there isn't a chance left to get the requested planes in later releases.

[Kurfürst]

I see little reason to include the Mark IIs; their performance was overall extremely similiar to the Mark Is, I guess the cocpit too, and even the externals are only marginally different. Yet it takes away development work from other areas.

... so, whats the point in having it? There are much better and interesting candidates to be added rather than a marginally different Mark of the Spitfire. Say, the Mark II Hurricane is far more different.. An then there`s the E-1 version of the 109 with an all-MG armament that was very numerous in the fighter force.

Besdies, hopefully BoBSoW will not as much fighter-oriented as Il-2 was, good MP experience requires many aircraft with different roles, ie. bombers, seaplanes etc.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

The MkII was not of relevance in the" BoB" as defined from July 10th to September. Most of the time there wasnt even a mk1 to be seen. Hurricanes ruled the skies, that is too easily forgotten.
I really think I rather would like a flyable Do17. (thats just me)

[madsarmy]

I really think I rather would like a flyable Do17. (thats just me)

Not just you. I'd like to fly a pencil also.

[JG52Uther]

Obviously we don't know what oleg is planning,but I hope we don't go down the same route as il2,with major planes left out of the relevant theatres of operations.No flyable Do17 in BoB would be a strange decision.

[Al Schlageter]

The MkII was not of relevance in the" BoB" as defined from July 10th to September. Most of the time there wasnt even a mk1 to be seen. Hurricanes ruled the skies, that is too easily forgotten.
I really think I rather would like a flyable Do17. (thats just me)
Yet the Do215 is being worked on. From what I have read ~100 were built and mostly used for recon.

SQUADRONS THAT TOOK PART IN THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN

1 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded JX, Operated from Northolt & Tangmere
1RCAF SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded YO, Operated from Croydon & Northolt
3 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded QO, Operated from Kenley & Wick(Scotland)
17 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded YB, Operated from Debden & Martlesham Heath
19 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded QV, Operated from Fowlemere & Duxford
23 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded YP, Operated from Colyweston & Wittering
25 SQUADRON: Blenheims & Beaufighters, Coded ZK, Operated from North Weald
29 SQUADRON: Blenheims & Beaufighters, Coded RO, Operated from Debden
32 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded GZ, Operated from Biggin Hill & Acklington(Rest)
41 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded EB, Hornchurch & Catterick
43 SQUADRON "China-British": Hurricanes, Coded FT, Operated from Tangmere & Northolt
46 SQUADRON "Uganda": Hurricanes, Coded PO, Operated from Stapleford
54 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded KL, Operated from Hornchurch & Catterick(Rest)
56 SQUADRON "Punjab": Hurricanes, Coded US, Operated from North Weald & Boscombe Down
64 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded SH, Operated from Kenley, Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
65 SQUADRON "East India": Spitfires, Coded YT, Operated from Hornchurch & Turnhouse(Rest)
66 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded LZ, Operated from Coltishall & Kenley
72 SQUADRON "Basutoland": Spitfires, Coded RN, Operated from Drem & Biggin Hill
73 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded TP, Operated from Church Fenton
74 SQUADRON "Trinidad": Spitfires, Coded ZP, Operated from Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
79 SQUADRON "Madras Presidency": Hurricanes, Coded NV, Operated from Acklington & Biggin Hill
85 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded VY, Operated from Debden & Croydon
87 SQUADRON "United Provinces": Hurricanes, Coded LK, Operated from Exeter
92 SQUADRON "East India": Spitfires, Coded QJ, Operated from Hornchurch & Biggin Hill
111 SQUADRON "Treble One": Hurricanes, Northolt & Drem(Rest)
141 SQUADRON: Defiants, Coded TW, Operated from West Malling & Biggin Hill
145 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded SO, Operated from Tangmere & Westhampnet
151 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded DZ, Operated from North Weald
152 SQUADRON "Hyderabad": Spitfires, Coded UM, Operated from Warmwell
213 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded AK, Operated from Exeter & Leconfield
219 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded FK, Operated from Catterick & Redhill
222 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded ZD, Operated from Kirkon-in-Lindsay(Rest) & Hornchurch
229 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded HB, Operated from Wittering & Northolt
232 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded EF, Operated from Sumburgh
234 SQUADRON: Spitfires, Coded AZ, Operated from Church Fenton & Middle Wallop
235 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded LA, Operated from Thorney Island & Bircham Newton
236 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded FA, Operated from Thorney Island
238 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded VK, Operated from Middle Wallop & St Eval
242 SQUADRON "Canadian": Hurricanes, Coded LE, Operated from Coltishall & Duxford
245 SQUADRON "Northern Rhodesia": Hurricanes, Coded DR, Operated from Aldergrove
247 SQUADRON "China-British": Gladiators, Coded HP, Operated from St Eval
248 SQUADRON: Blenheims, Coded WR, Operated from Dyce
249 SQUADRON "Gold Coast": Coded GN, Operated from Church Fenton/Boscombe Down/Nth Weald
253 SQUADRON "Hyderabad": Hurricanes, Coded SW, Operated from Turnhouse & Kenley
257 SQUADRON "Burma": Hurricanes, Coded DT, Operated from Northolt & Debden
263 SQUADRON: Whirlwinds, Coded HE, Operated from Drem
264 SQUADRON "Madras Presidency": Defiants, Coded PS, Operated from Fowlmere & Hornchurch
266 SQUADRON "Rhodesia": Spitfires, Coded UO, Operated from Wittering & Hornchurch
302 SQUADRON "Poznan": Hurricanes, Coded WX, Operated from Northolt & Westhampnet
303 SQUADRON "Warsaw": Hurricanes, Coded RF, Operated from Northolt & Leconfield(Rest)
310 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded NN, Operated from Duxford
312 SQUADRON: Hurricanes, Coded DU, Operated from Speke
501 SQUADRON "County of Gloucester" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded SD, Operated from Middle Wallop/Gravesend/Kenley
504 SQUADRON "County of Nottingham" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded TM, Operated from Wick/Hendon/Filton
600 SQUADRON "City of London" Auxiliary Air Force
Blenheims, Coded BQ, Operated from Northolt
601 SQUADRON "County of London" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded UF, Operated from Middle Wallop & Tangmere
602 SQUADRON "City of Glasgow" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded LO, Operated from Drem & Westhampnet
603 SQUADRON "City of Edinburgh" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded XT, Operated from Drem/Turnhouse/Hornchurch
604 SQUADRON "County of Middlesex" Auxiliary Air Force
Blenheims/Beaufighters, Coded NG, Operated from Middle Wallop
605 SQUADRON "County of Warwick" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded UP, Operated from Wick & Croydon
607 SQUADRON "County of Durham" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded AF, Operated from Usworth & Tangmere
609 SQUADRON "West Riding" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded PR, Operated from Middle Wallop & Warmwell
610 SQUADRON "County of Chester" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded DW, Operated from Biggin Hill & Acklington(Rest)
611 SQUADRON "West Lancashire" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded FY, Operated from Digby
615 SQUADRON "County of Surrey" Auxiliary Air Force
Hurricanes, Coded KW, Operated from Kenley & Northolt
616 SQUADRON "South Yorkshire" Auxiliary Air Force
Spitfires, Coded YQ, Operated from Leconfield/Kenley/Coltishall/Kirton-in-Lindsay
http://www.battleofbritain.net/contents-index.html

Look at this link for a/c deployment. http://www.battleofbritain.net/0006.html

[KOM.Nausicaa]

No a Do 17. There were used as bombers quite a lot in the beginning. Lots of attacks on shipping.

[Al Schlageter]

No a Do 17. There were used as bombers quite a lot in the beginning. Lots of attacks on shipping.

SaQSoN at SimHQ

"We now need more refs on bomber variants of Do-215. I guess, it is more difficult task, since, as far, as I know, no plane of that type exists by now.

If anyone have photos, or pictures from manuals, which haven't yet been published in various books - feel free to post them here."
http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2371111&fpart=8

[Avimimus]

Why does everybody ask me, if I was a part of 1C, just because I understand some difficulties they have?
I want SoW:BoB to be released as much as everybody else. I'd just like to point out, that there are people wanting to release that product even more than we do: 1C !

So if you ask me wether to release BoB (hopefully) before christmas or risking to miss the date for including a Spit, a 110 C or D, I'd rather have BoB released now and addons with those planes. Where do you stop anyway? If you include the Spit Mk.II, you have to add a stronger plane for axis, too. You just can't cover the complete WW2. Just look at IL2 - there was only a fraction of the number of planes we have in 1946, yet it was the release that made this series so famous.

Hear, hear!

I'm all for people taking Maddox Game's side (1C is the distributor). Something needs to be done to balance the whining after all.

On top of this I trust Oleg to make the best product possible. ...I suspect that he may never understand the importance of the night war (not 41' but bomber command) and that he will model Eastern Front tactics instead of the different philosophy of air warfare that developed in the West. But, still I will be happy.

This is wise young ones. It is perhaps a hard earned peace of mind (to accept things as they are without demanding perfection and to give Oleg a chance to succeed in most areas and mess up a few).

I too hope for an add-on with a couple of the earlier and later variants of many of these aircraft. Most of all though, I hope for Oleg's success (which our success is tied up in) and also for his own peace of mind (which he rightly deserves).

My two cents...

[Friendly_flyer]

Al Schlageter, a short note about squadrons:

No 79 Squ flew with the markings AL during Battle of France and Battle of Britain, only changing to NV as they where retrained on Hurricane Mk.IIb around Newyear 1940-1941.

[Al Schlageter]

There is most likely other errors in codes to Petter. ;)

Posted to show what squadrons used what a/c.

This site gives a better disposition of a/c.
http://www.battle-of-britain.com/

[Vigilant]

Why does everybody ask me, if I was a part of 1C, just because I understand some difficulties they have?
I want SoW:BoB to be released as much as everybody else. I'd just like to point out, that there are people wanting to release that product even more than we do: 1C !

So if you ask me wether to release BoB (hopefully) before christmas or risking to miss the date for including a Spit, a 110 C or D, I'd rather have BoB released now and addons with those planes. Where do you stop anyway? If you include the Spit Mk.II, you have to add a stronger plane for axis, too. You just can't cover the complete WW2. Just look at IL2 - there was only a fraction of the number of planes we have in 1946, yet it was the release that made this series so famous.

Feuerfalke, you came across as a bit authorative, mayber that's why everyone asks if you're on the 1C payroll. But I appreciate your points you made :)

I actually thought this request (note - not a whinge - that's a different thing), was a fair one seeing as it required just a few parameters to be changed. I even would welcome as many 109 variants. My driving reason however was to depict the conflict as it happened. There were Squadrons that flew MkII's during BoB and I listed them all in the first post.

If it is not possible then I accept that. So thank you all - I have enough bricks to build a small barbeque now. Once I repair the windows and clean up the broken glass I'll start straight away :wink:

[DKoor]

I think I can live without Spit II and extra Bf-109s.
As long as they got the announced stuff right.

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

And let the cries for a better plane then my enemy begin. :-/

[nearmiss]

The entire Battle of Britain took place over the period of only a few months. There were only a specific number and type of aircraft that were actually used in the BOB.

Knowing Oleg you can count on getting the sputtering Hurricanes and Spits, at first I seriously doubt you'll get much more.

You are going to wear your bumm out trying to take down German bombers with .303s. LOL

The amount of firepower must have been a real discouragement to British pilots. Churchill had to do some real motivational talking to get pilots to go up and empty their guns and only get a few smokers.

[Skoshi Tiger]

You are going to wear your bumm out trying to take down German bombers with .303s. LOL

The amount of firepower must have been a real discouragement to British pilots. Churchill had to do some real motivational talking to get pilots to go up and empty their guns and only get a few smokers.

I know we've all seen the photos of the german bomber that made it back with 200 odd .303 rounds through it ( after a forced landing), but I never actually read anywhere if it completed it's mission or how many of the crew survived!

Hopefully the game play will be such that you don't have to rack up kills to be successful in a mission. As a british pilot just getting a german bomber to abort it's mission should be a victory.

[FlyingBollock]

I've been waiting for Bob for as long as you guys. And I have to say, I never in all my God given days witnessed such a bunch of whining fagots in all my life ! not a single one of you would stand a chance in hell in any real war....listen to yourselves...! ohh pleeeeeese Oleg, Ohhhhhhh Oleg !! Ohhhh God pleeeeeseee........when Oleg when! Can we have this Oleg, can we have that? Ohhhh Oleg I'll do anything you ask, pleeeeese respond, why no news ?

You God dam Sissy's! You ought you be ashamed of yourselves. If you where in my company I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

Yours

The Flying Bollock!

[Robert]

I've been waiting for Bob for as long as you guys. And I have to say, I never in all my God given days witnessed such a bunch of whining fagots in all my life ! not a single one of you would stand a chance in hell in any real war....listen to yourselves...! ohh pleeeeeese Oleg, Ohhhhhhh Oleg !! Ohhhh God pleeeeeseee........when Oleg when! Can we have this Oleg, can we have that? Ohhhh Oleg I'll do anything you ask, pleeeeese respond, why no news ?

You God dam Sissy's! You ought you be ashamed of yourselves. If you where in my company I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

Yours

The Flying Bollock!



Dont cha just love online bravery? While I agree the petulent whining can be quite annoying sometimes, your post just stinks of cowardice and personal frustration. I'd say you need to grow up more than the impatient.

Good luck with that, boy.

[nearmiss]

I've been waiting for Bob for as long as you guys. And I have to say, I never in all my God given days witnessed such a bunch of whining fagots in all my life ! not a single one of you would stand a chance in hell in any real war....listen to yourselves...! ohh pleeeeeese Oleg, Ohhhhhhh Oleg !! Ohhhh God pleeeeeseee........when Oleg when! Can we have this Oleg, can we have that? Ohhhh Oleg I'll do anything you ask, pleeeeese respond, why no news ?

You God dam Sissy's! You ought you be ashamed of yourselves. If you where in my company I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

Yours

The Flying Bollock!

When you use profanity and personal attacks you define yourself... a troll:evil:

[Vigilant]

I've been waiting for Bob for as long as you guys. And I have to say, I never in all my God given days witnessed such a bunch of whining fagots in all my life ! not a single one of you would stand a chance in hell in any real war....listen to yourselves...! ohh pleeeeeese Oleg, Ohhhhhhh Oleg !! Ohhhh God pleeeeeseee........when Oleg when! Can we have this Oleg, can we have that? Ohhhh Oleg I'll do anything you ask, pleeeeese respond, why no news ?

You God dam Sissy's! You ought you be ashamed of yourselves. If you where in my company I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

Yours

The Flying Bollock!

ROFL

Wow. Never had I ever imagined that a simple suggestion (no. it wasn't a demand, or a whinge) would attract so much venom and hate.

Ok. So out of all this, I have:

Bricks - and the the barbeque is now built;

Heat - Thank you for all the flames;

Now we just need some meat - hang on, those bollocks smell nasty :shock:

Now, Bollocks. I won't get personal with you, but your hijacking of the thread had absolutely no bearing on it's outcome. Seriously, get some anger counselling dude.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I've been waiting for Bob for as long as you guys. And I have to say, I never in all my God given days witnessed such a bunch of whining fagots in all my life ! not a single one of you would stand a chance in hell in any real war....listen to yourselves...! ohh pleeeeeese Oleg, Ohhhhhhh Oleg !! Ohhhh God pleeeeeseee........when Oleg when! Can we have this Oleg, can we have that? Ohhhh Oleg I'll do anything you ask, pleeeeese respond, why no news ?

You God dam Sissy's! You ought you be ashamed of yourselves. If you where in my company I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

Yours

The Flying Bollock!


I knew there was a reason I kept comming back here every day! I nearly kakked myself laughing.

I think its time for you to follow some of your own advice and go and



drink another diet pepsi, and surf some more porn and shut the hell up.

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

I would punch your arm till you begged me to stop. Half of you whining fairy's would crap your pants if you ever even stood in front a real airplane let alone fly in one, you make me sick. drink another diet pepsi

Why only in the arm? Oh and wth is a wrong with diet pepsi!?!?

S!

[Ploughman]

Crikey, how rude. Stand together in the face of adversity lads, like our forefathers who licked the Jerries, I think we've got what it takes to lick that bollock.

[Fossil-Goz]

I knew there was a reason I kept comming back here every day! I nearly kakked myself laughing.

I think its time for you to follow some of your own advice and go and

Damn - Now look what you've made me do. Diet Pepsi all over the screen. Unfortunately cant get any porn due to being at work so aircraft porn will have to suffice. Now where did I leave my fairy cleaning cloth.


Goz

[FlyingBollock]

Why only in the arm? Oh and wth is a wrong with diet pepsi!?!?

S!

Aspertain, google it dummy

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

Aspertain, google it dummy

puss!

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/AspartameQandA

[Zoom2136]

I know we've all seen the photos of the german bomber that made it back with 200 odd .303 rounds through it ( after a forced landing), but I never actually read anywhere if it completed it's mission or how many of the crew survived!

Hopefully the game play will be such that you don't have to rack up kills to be successful in a mission. As a british pilot just getting a german bomber to abort it's mission should be a victory.


Well this is great ... but online you always have the suicidal bomber (or fighter) that press on to the end....

So getting the moral victory of seing one actully turn back due to battle damage and the risk of crashing before making it back is slim to none...

[Skoshi Tiger]

[QUOTE=Zoom2136;38231]Well this is great ... but online you always have the suicidal bomber (or fighter) that press on to the end....
QUOTE]

Some times thats whats make the sim fun...

Talking about trying to get a cripled plane back from a mission, last night I had the vertical stablizer removed from my Mustang III, (I'm ashamed to say it took me several minutes to diagnose the poor handling!) What followed was a frantic dash from one edge of the map to try to get over my front line at tree top level with 3 FW190's in hot persuit! (They expended most of their ammo).

I almost made it too! Unfortunately I was over forrest and couldn't get enough height to bail!