The MOD mentality....

[Jumoschwanz]

From another thread:

I think tomorrow, I am going to release a flight model for the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 that sets specs for it back to the 4.10.1 flight model. I will call this new model TA 4.10.1, but it will be made only for fully patched 4.11 versions of IL2.

If it is too hard for them, then they change it to make it easier......

WD thinks it is going to be revealing something extraordinary because he is flying a 4.10 aircraft against more realistic 4.11 versions? Why doesn't he just figure out how to import CFS2 hacks where they were flying zeros with Corsair engines that shot 500lb bombs out of their cannons? It would prove the same thing.

We are moving on to a more realistic flight sim and it is called IL246 version 4.11m. It has only been out for a very short time but already "experts" on engineering and WWII history are changing it to suit their flawed and twisted thinking on the subject. It is a slap in the face of Oleg Maddox and TD, it is an insult and disrespectful for a group of guys who bust their nuts coding and doing research to bring you the very best WWII flight sim out there.

Real IL2 aces and make do with what is given to them and fly the official patches without resorting to mods, hacks or cheats.

I know that mod pacs bring impatient kiddies lots of new aircraft and sparkly and shiny effects and tweaked weapons to keep them from getting bored while stuck in their cribs, but they are not tested by anyone of the caliber of Team Daidalos, and they are not quality products.

[fruitbat]

2007 wants its thread back.

I see you completely ignored what some of the members of Team D said in another thread though, lol.

Oh, it might surprise you to know that i've been exclusively flying 4.11 since it came out.

[swiss]

lock/delete request sent

[Jumoschwanz]

Talking about mods is allowed on this forum, does that mean that it has to all be positive? Blowing sunshine up someone's skirt? Opposing opinions and criticism are part of free speech and free societies, especially if they are facts.
The last things I have to say on the subject is that if I can learn to fly, compete, fight and have fun using the official patches of IL2 and you can not without using modifications, hacks and cheats, then yes, I am better than you.

And if I choose to stick by the official version of IL2 and back up those who work on it instead of complaining about it and modding it after only trying it for a few days, then that makes me feel better about myself too.

Those who can do, and those who can't use mods, hacks and cheats and will still get shot down anyway... They are not smart enough to realize that the problem lies not with their tools, but with themselves.

Thank you for moving this to the proper forum, the mod forum, and thank you for letting me have my say. I think I am finished now.....

[too-cool]

If I understand you correctly, IL2 should be exactly as it was when it was initially released, anything done to it between then and now is a modification to the original to include Offical Patches or as a lot of user say, and improvement. Changing anything from it's original is modifying it so you are also playing with a modded game. TC


4.11 is a modification of IL2 believe it or not........

[Jumoschwanz]

If I understand you correctly,

Apparently you did not even read what I said. I never said anything against the official patches of IL2. So in effect you are talking to yourself right?

Those that were not around to see the fall of the CFS2 online community, and those who were not around in the early years of IL2 when the entire online community all flew the same version of IL2 probably can not see what was discarded and lost so that a few impatient people could have some extra or special aircraft, toys and effects.

The online population on Hyperlobby is way, way down compared to what it was before MODS.

When all IL2 pilots(except cheaters) were flying the same version of IL2, you could join any server and fly with anyone else, all squads could fly and compete with each other, and all the forum discussions were centered around one thing. Hyperlobby would have over a thousand flying on it on weekends and even sometimes during the week. You could be reasonably sure that nine out of ten people you were flying with on any server were not using hacks or cheats. The official version of IL2 was a standard that existed for the community to follow and glue them together.

Wasn't that a lot to lose?

The online IL2 experience and community has been in steady decline since mods have become common. Online population is way down, and even that small population is divided into fragments flying different versions of IL2.

Newcomers to IL2 are faced with not just figuring out how to install the official version of the sim, but they are courted by the various special interests that make up the different mod factions each crowing how their MOD pack is the best, so they have that choice to make, plus more software to install and more bugs to deal with and have to do more footwork to figure out how to fix bugs. This makes IL2 much less attractive than it was pre-MOD.

These same new pilots have no guarantee that they will ever fly with or against anyone that is using the same version of the sim they are, or even if it is the same version or hack, that extra hacks have not been inserted into it by it's individual user. In the old days we called these people cheats.

What was lost was liked and important to a lot of people.

If you go look at any old pre-mod forum banter that may still be in the archives of various websites for IL2, you will see the same arguments that you see now with the release of new patches. This is not good enough, that is no good, why wasn't this fixed or included or why was this porked?

Some of the complainers will point out something legitimate, but most are simply individuals with limited knowledge of aircraft and WWII history, or the specific subject they are complaining about wishing that IL2 met their ideal wet-dreams or matched their favorite Hollywood movie, or they are too impatient to wait for a small team of developers to get to their special interest.

So these people made their own version of IL2, Squads adopted the hacks that suited their favorite aircraft and maps and switched their servers to suit them, and divided we fall.

Cliffs of Dover is interesting and offers hope of getting an online community that is all on the same page again. I have flown it and had fun with it but I really need a new computer and OS etc. to be serious about it. If it is hacked and modded before I get the money together to spend on it, then I will just keep it in my wallet and not even begin with it.

[Asheshouse]

Jumoschwanz -- I presume you do not use mods and therefore have no real idea of what they are about. Why do you waste your time posting in a thread about Mods when you know nothing about the subject?

The online population on Hyperlobby was dwindling before Mods began and has actually increased since then not reduced. Try and get your facts right please.

[too-cool]

The last things I have to say on the subject is that if I can learn to fly, compete, fight and have fun using the official patches of IL2 and you can not without using modifications, hacks and cheats, then yes, I am better than you......[/QUOTE]

Official patches are modifications, so that's OK but any other modifications that enhances the game from other than 1C or labelled Official Patch are what you call hacks and cheats? If I'm incorrect on this point please disregard and my sincere apology's. TC

[Beowolff]

i actually can 'see' where he's coming from here... in a way.

he's bemoaning the loss of 'what was'... and yeah, the 'GOOD OLE DAYS' of any sim are always best and most exciting when viewed thru the rose-tinted glasses of a person's memory. i feel the same way about a few of my old girlfriends, going to grammer school in a one horse town, growing up on a farm in the 1950's, my first rock concert (The Four Seasons), etc, etc...

however, as good as all those things were, they definitely weren't as perfect as i remember them to be and i clearly know it... only thru passed time they just 'seem' better than they were. ---and no doubt this sim wasn't as perfect as he'd like to 'remember' it was either if he really sat down and thought it over before blowing off steam at 'who/what' he perceives as destroying all those good memories.

but hey yeah, i miss those heady ole days too... good times. but then 'these' days CAN be good times too if a person wants them to be.

i'm a modder, with likely over two hundred mods in the game, and with my mods used by many, many people all over the world. and i can HONESTLY say i've never (as in NEVER) built a cheat (as he calls it) and i honestly don't personally know any other modder (and i know a heck of a lot of 'em) that has either. i NEVER touch the stock files. my planes are always new slots, new names, and though i may tweak an FM on those planes to be what i think is correct for the model i'm making, i have NEVER put a changed FM in the game for ANY stock plane. so yes, i have modded planes in the game, but they're still basically 95 percent stock parts...and the stock planes right beside them are completely untouched by me so when you fly those stock planes, you're flying Oleg Maddox and crew all the way, baby!

you have a choice with my mods... fly MY P-40_E1 new slot plane with the small changes i've made... or fly the STOCK P-40E with NO changes made by me. and such is most mods like that. nobody's forcing anybody to fly my mod, the choice is there and clear. it was a choice NOBODY had back in the old days of this sim. (except the real cheaters and yes they WERE around even back then, we just didn't know it.) now days we have the choice, which is what modding is really all about.

why anybody would want to go wild and get mad over getting/having choices is beyond me.

but it seems the original poster here wants to 'go back' in time and re-live the great, 'good ole days.' and wow...the clock moves FORWARD not BACKWARD. we can't go back, just like i can't go back to 1962 (one of the best years of my life.)

everything evolves and changes... or it stagnates, rots and dies, law of the universe. nothing stays the same. and the same with the game here. the 'stale' was setting in...and modders breathed NEW life into it. fact! whether he wants to admit it or not. i don't expect him to thank us for it, no, but the least he could do is not ATTACK us for it.

:confused:

[JtD]

The online population on Hyperlobby was dwindling before Mods began and has actually increased since then not reduced.

That's not true, the number of players in hyperlobby was far larger before mods than it is now. Guess that's mainly because the game was five years younger, though, and the interesting question is if numbers today would be higher or lower. But that would be pure speculation.

Nowadays you usually have around 150 players in Hyperlobby, enough to populate about 5 servers, but it's hard to find two reasonably populated servers that actually run the version of the game you want to play. And the there's a good chance that neither of the two servers running your version also have a set-up to your likings. And that, imho, sucks.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

What Beowolff means, may be true - many things become better or nicer in remembering.
But beside all the nostalgic feelings there ist one valid fact to me: I had more fun back then! And while the game itself, no matter if stock or modded, seems still to be a very good toy to have fun with, the only big difference between now and then, is:
The community is not united anymore!
I see this as the main problem, and this had been caused by the hacking and the following free modding.

[Asheshouse]

That's not true, the number of players in hyperlobby was far larger before mods than it is now.

I would accept that is true but it does not alter the fact that numbers on servers had started to significantly reduce before mods came along.

Nowadays you usually have around 150 players in Hyperlobby, enough to populate about 5 servers, but it's hard to find two reasonably populated servers that actually run the version of the game you want to play. And the there's a good chance that neither of the two servers running your version also have a set-up to your likings. And that, imho, sucks. The servers with greater numbers of users are normally running UP3 mods. Servers with no mods allowed are in less demand, based on numbers seen in Hyperlobby. If you use UP3 its not hard to find a server which is reasonably populated. --- and I'm not trying to promote UP3. I actually use the HSFX mod Pack :) mainly offline and use un-modded online, but online activity is limited by poor internet speeds.


The community is not united anymore!


That is a fundamental problem, but the overall size of the community today is because of continuing developments in both official and unofficial addons. If mods did not exist then yes the community would be united, but the overall size of the community would shrink considerably.

[JtD]

I would accept that is true but it does not alter the fact that numbers on servers had started to significantly reduce before mods came along.
Sure, that's true as well.
The servers with greater numbers of users are normally running UP3 mods.
None of the servers I'm primarily interested in is running UP3. Which is a good thing, as UP3 isn't my cup of tea. But even if it was and my taste in servers was different - weekdays there were hardly more than two or three of them showing reasonably busy, same as with stock or HSFX.

[mkubani]

One thing holds true in my opinion. As soon as you open (any) software where end users are able to create and modify its content, they are creating diversity which will effect their multiplayer interaction. Compatibility was never an issue with the closed IL-2 as far as I remember.

Second, you may or may not agree with me, but for me the biggest drawback is that the IL-2 community forums topics seem to have shifted away from virtual flying discussions. There are many posts regarding modding IL-2, but so much less talks regarding actual virtual combat flying. It feels a bit to me like those car tuning communities, where you spend more time in the garage than actually driving the car.

Just my 2 cents. Peace.

[Jumoschwanz]

Condemning all people who make MODS for IL2 would definitely be wrong on my part and no different than condemning someone for their race or religion.

People who do things for the love of it are a benefit to the world, people who do things to put themselves or special interests forward have a negative impact, and those two forces exist in every human endeavor.

A lot of those into modding IL2 may have never known the sim before mods for it existed.

I just believe that IL2 would be better off if those with the talent and interest to work on IL2 had the patience to all work on it together with the blessing of it's creators on new official patches, instead of breaking off in different directions any time their favorite aircraft doesn't work the way they think it should, or they do not have the patience to wait for something to be in an official patch.

If that would have happened then during the slow times on Hyperlobby, the few that are left there could think a lot more about flying together with others and having fun and less about installing the game, who they can and can not fly with and which version of IL2 is better etc..

[Asheshouse]

It feels a bit to me like those car tuning communities, where you spend more time in the garage than actually driving the car.


How true :)

[Beowolff]

yes, ^^^ i agree with that also. usually much more time spent tinkering/fixing than actual playing (for me personally, anyway.) ---which i sadly bemoan...yet because i have tasked myself to help others mod and be actively engaged in modding and helping 'teach' others to mod, i have little choice but to carry on in that direction (at least for now---though physical hardships such as health problems may soon slow or 'change' that.)

but... remember, we modders on our modding forums may 'sound' as if all we discuss is modding, but that's like the 'tip' of an iceberg as to what's going on around us. for every vocal guy that talks of modding/modding/modding... there's twenty more 'silent' members that never say a word about it. and there's likely fifty more non-members browsing our sites picking up an occasional mod to fly here and there that we don't hear from either.

so yes, it might 'seem' as if everybody's yapping about modding this or that, but in RL there's definitely more mod users than mod talkers.

:grin:

[BadAim]

Condemning all people who make MODS for IL2 would definitely be wrong on my part and no different than condemning someone for their race or religion.

People who do things for the love of it are a benefit to the world, people who do things to put themselves or special interests forward have a negative impact, and those two forces exist in every human endeavor.

A lot of those into modding IL2 may have never known the sim before mods for it existed.

I just believe that IL2 would be better off if those with the talent and interest to work on IL2 had the patience to all work on it together with the blessing of it's creators on new official patches, instead of breaking off in different directions any time their favorite aircraft doesn't work the way they think it should, or they do not have the patience to wait for something to be in an official patch.

If that would have happened then during the slow times on Hyperlobby, the few that are left there could think a lot more about flying together with others and having fun and less about installing the game, who they can and can not fly with and which version of IL2 is better etc..

While your words are pretty mate, your original post did exactly what you are bemoaning, you took the actions of a single fool and broad brushed everyone who you perceive be like him. You are mostly wrong about your so called mod mentality; the majority of Mods add new content to IL2, not modify existing content.

WD is a tit, pure and simple, and I take it as a personal insult if you think any thing he has to say in anyway represents what any person who I associate with thinks, feels or does.

I expect better from you.

[BadAim]

In hindsight, I think the above might be a bit harsh, I don't feel any differently, but it's a bit harsh nevertheless.

[Bearcat]

Apparently you did not even read what I said. I never said anything against the official patches of IL2. So in effect you are talking to yourself right?
Those that were not around to see the fall of the CFS2 online community, and those who were not around in the early years of IL2 when the entire online community all flew the same version of IL2 probably can not see what was discarded and lost so that a few impatient people could have some extra or special aircraft, toys and effects.
The online population on Hyperlobby is way, way down compared to what it was before MODS.
When all IL2 pilots(except cheaters) were flying the same version of IL2, you could join any server and fly with anyone else, all squads could fly and compete with each other, and all the forum discussions were centered around one thing. Hyperlobby would have over a thousand flying on it on weekends and even sometimes during the week. You could be reasonably sure that nine out of ten people you were flying with on any server were not using hacks or cheats. The official version of IL2 was a standard that existed for the community to follow and glue them together.
Wasn't that a lot to lose?
The online IL2 experience and community has been in steady decline since mods have become common. Online population is way down, and even that small population is divided into fragments flying different versions of IL2.
Newcomers to IL2 are faced with not just figuring out how to install the official version of the sim, but they are courted by the various special interests that make up the different mod factions each crowing how their MOD pack is the best, so they have that choice to make, plus more software to install and more bugs to deal with and have to do more footwork to figure out how to fix bugs. This makes IL2 much less attractive than it was pre-MOD.
These same new pilots have no guarantee that they will ever fly with or against anyone that is using the same version of the sim they are, or even if it is the same version or hack, that extra hacks have not been inserted into it by it's individual user. In the old days we called these people cheats.
What was lost was liked and important to a lot of people.
If you go look at any old pre-mod forum banter that may still be in the archives of various websites for IL2, you will see the same arguments that you see now with the release of new patches. This is not good enough, that is no good, why wasn't this fixed or included or why was this porked?
Some of the complainers will point out something legitimate, but most are simply individuals with limited knowledge of aircraft and WWII history, or the specific subject they are complaining about wishing that IL2 met their ideal wet-dreams or matched their favorite Hollywood movie, or they are too impatient to wait for a small team of developers to get to their special interest.
So these people made their own version of IL2, Squads adopted the hacks that suited their favorite aircraft and maps and switched their servers to suit them, and divided we fall.
Cliffs of Dover is interesting and offers hope of getting an online community that is all on the same page again. I have flown it and had fun with it but I really need a new computer and OS etc. to be serious about it. If it is hacked and modded before I get the money together to spend on it, then I will just keep it in my wallet and not even begin with it.

While I agree with much of what you have said .. the fact is that this is an old debate that has been beaten to death ad infinitum.

The mods are here and have been here publicly for 5 years and it will NEVER go back to the way it was ... once that happened everything changed.

Not all the mods are of poor quality either. From where I sit, from my limited understanding, the fact that for better or worse one mod group has decided to operate within the parameters of TD while others have not .. for me that makes a choice of where to get my modded sim from crystal. The demise of the population on HL while I am certain may be influenced by mods to a degree, it is also influenced by the fact that this is a 10 year old sim. If I am not mistaken it has the largest community of any 10+ year old sim on the market .. what few there are that are still around.

+1 to what BW said too...

While mods have definitely changed the sim IMO they have improved it as much as they may have hurt it.. Look at this... we have 6DoF in the stock sim now.. and that was one of the earliest mods to come out .. There are so many great mods out there that had nothing at all to do with FMs or DMs or new planes .. and I don't care what anyone says.. The disaster that many, myself included , expected when this sim was modded based on our experiences in other sims DID NOT HAPPEN. Yes there were issues and there probably still are given human nature. No we do not have the security that we once had, but we have a D@MN good product... STOCK... and I do not believe we would have what we have now had the sim not been modded. You are an old timer.. just look at 4.11 and compare it to IL2.. the original... it is MILES beyond IL2. Not only in terms of aircraft and features but sheer functionality.

Personally I prefer HSFX as a mod pack.. I have my issues with some other mod packs and what I have seen with them so I have chosen not to use them .. others think they are the best thing out there.. but we all have choices. I think that incorporating the features that are now in 4.11 have gone a long way towards making the stock sim more appealing ..

People have made excuses why they don't want to fly this sim anymore .. I say if you want the community to be more robust you have to be a part of it to make that happen. I am still amazed at the fact that this 10+ year old product can still make me go wow.

[Asheshouse]

Some things will never (for legal reasons) appear in official patches.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/Asheshouse/image06-8.jpg

[HundertneunGustav]

bullseye.
XD

[KG26_Alpha]

Jumoschwanz -- I presume you do not use mods and therefore have no real idea of what they are about. Why do you waste your time posting in a thread about Mods when you know nothing about the subject?

The online population on Hyperlobby was dwindling before Mods began and has actually increased since then not reduced. Try and get your facts right please.


Nope its reduced due the mods and the fractured HL community.

[Bearcat]

Nope its reduced due the mods and the fractured HL community.

Yes but be all that as it may very well be. It is what it is and if it is too much to handle then find another hobby but to continually whine and bemoan a 5+ year old issue in a 10+ year old sim .. that will never change. NEVER. Even if there is a recrypting the IL2 community will never be a single monolith again. At the very least it will be a two tiered world from here on out. It was great while it lasted but that part is done.

[BadAim]

Wow. This place reminds me of a political forum. No one has anything new to say and no one really cares what any one else thinks. Only the party line, nothing else.

Every one is so busy assuming what everyone thinks there is not even the remotest possibility of dialogue. The sad thing is that no one cares, so long as their right.

Blah, blah, blah, freaking blah.

[CWMV]

Nope its reduced due the mods and the fractured HL community.

Ha! Whatever dude.
Good thing this is being presented as an opinion, rather than a fact. Which it patently isn't.

[Bearcat]

FWIW I still get a h@ell of a lot of fun out of this sim. Modded and stock, online and off.

[Kittle]

FWIW I still get a h@ell of a lot of fun out of this sim. Modded and stock, online and off.

There it is, in so few words, the real meaning of life. If it's fun for you, awesome, have FUN! If you're not having fun? Awesome, cause you don't have to do it anymore and move on to things that are in fact fun. Everyone is looking for something different, and get it through whatever way works for them. I say, if they're having fun, why mess with them??? We are fans of a genre that doesn't have enough people as it is, and I guarantee that at least one person gets turned off the community enough from all of this that we never even hear from them, and that's just a shame any way you look at it. Why oh Why must mods fire some people up soooo much that this is necessary???

[Asheshouse]

Disclaimer: No mods were harmed in the making of this thread.


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/Asheshouse/image08-4.jpg

[fruitbat]

Disclaimer: No mods were harmed in the making of this thread.


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/Asheshouse/image08-4.jpg


lol.

[KG26_Alpha]

Ha! Whatever dude.
Good thing this is being presented as an opinion, rather than a fact. Which it patently isn't.

Where's the regular 800+ users gone to before the mods arrived ?

Have a look at the HL servers.

@ 19:30 GMT the 2 busiest servers are running v4.11 over 40 pilots in both.

other servers are running

v409 + UP 201

v4101 + UP rc3

Throw HSFX + Expert mode into the mix also and tell me mods didn't fragment and loose new people coming to the sim due to the mess thats out there with hacked games,
as well as users leaving IL2 due to the mods.

I have used the mods in the past and found the user made maps to be the only real benefit as it opens up the games longevity through more interesting theatres.

I'm sure that TD have things they would want to put into IL21946 but are restricted, (Channel Map for one) lets hope some of the maps can make it into the stock game at least.

.

[Bearcat]

Where's the regular 800+ users gone to before the mods arrived ?
Have a look at the HL servers.
@ 19:30 GMT the 2 busiest servers are running v4.11 over 40 pilots in both.
other servers are running
v409 + UP 201
v4101 + UP rc3
Throw HSFX + Expert mode into the mix also and tell me mods didn't fragment and loose new people coming to the sim due to the mess thats out there with hacked games,
as well as users leaving IL2 due to the mods.
I have used the mods in the past and found the user made maps to be the only real benefit as it opens up the games longevity through more interesting theatres.
I'm sure that TD have things they would want to put into IL21946 but are restricted, (Channel Map for one) lets hope some of the maps can make it into the stock game at least.
.

I have no doubt that mods have had a negative impact.. I am just saying that it is not all negative .. and truth be told .. if TD keeps gong in the direction it is going things will be more unified .. 6DoF is now in the stock sim .. and done better than any mod pack IMO.. MDS is in there ... a few more maps .. a few more planes... only the best of the mod planes ... and really ... it is not that difficult anymore. Most mod packs have some kind of switcher to go from modded to stock...

Those who "left because of mods" are just making excuses and need to admit that they either got bored .. or are too stupid or lazy to install and patch the sim, modded or not. It is much much better than it has ever been since this all started except for in the Golden Age of IL2 .. and as I said.. those days are gone forever and they won't be back. The fact that there are now more stock servers running than there have been in a long while also says a lot.. so those guys actually have a place to go.. Folks need to just do what they do .. and enjoy the sim. Modded or stock, whatever your flavor, If you aren't trying to keep the sim alive by participating in it then you just need to shut up and move on (that is a general "you" not directed at anyone in this thread..) and that is the real .. and the ONLY bottom line in all this... the debate on mods pro or con is moot and just a foolish waste of time.

[fruitbat]

+1 to what Bearcat said.

From my own point of view, if stock had one of the FoV mods as part of it to enable true widescreen support i could quite happily live with that and fly completely stock.

As it is, i've modded my 4.11 just to have that as for me, thats a must.

That along with some cockpit repaints and some map repaints, and some visual effects mods since its already modable. I can live without the mod planes, there's enough in stock to keep me and my squad busy in the main.

I understand why Team D can't incorporate many of the cockpit repaints because of the size of the textures etc, but i've got a good computer so it doesn't hinder my performance, and i do like the eye candy.

I do miss the maps though, but again understand why TeamD can't use many of them.

At the moment the dangerdogz are flying a mix of 4.11 and UP3. UP3 because we have an event running at the moment for which we need it, but more and more 4.11 for regular flying, especially if i'm hosting as i love the ai and overheat in 4.11.

Of course, with the new ai, it doesn't always go to plan....... Somewhere near Berlin after getting bounced by La7's, Doh!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/grab0021.jpg

[Bearcat]

+1 to what Bearcat said.
From my own point of view, if stock had one of the FoV mods as part of it to enable true widescreen support i could quite happily live with that and fly completely stock.
As it is, i've modded my 4.11 just to have that as for me, thats a must.
That along with some cockpit repaints and some map repaints, and some visual effects mods since its already modable. I can live without the mod planes, there's enough in stock to keep me and my squad busy in the main.
I understand why Team D can't incorporate many of the cockpit repaints because of the size of the textures etc, but i've got a good computer so it doesn't hinder my performance, and i do like the eye candy.
I do miss the maps though, but again understand why TeamD can't use many of them.
At the moment the dangerdogz are flying a mix of 4.11 and UP3. UP3 because we have an event running at the moment for which we need it, but more and more 4.11 for regular flying, especially if i'm hosting as i love the ai and overheat in 4.11.

True. Most of the mods I use regularly have nothing to do with planes.. they are feature mods.. I am so pleased that they actually listened and added a specific request I made (don't know it it was my specific one .. but I made it and I now have it so I am a happy camper there..) .. the map zoom. It is mods like that that I really like.. The Splash Screen mod is another one
http://file.walagata.com/w/bearcat/splash_0.JPG
.. perhaps one day I will be able to edit that so it no longer says Mod Enabled.. I also think the default skin mod is another one that is a keeper. If TD did incorporate it though it would be great if they did it so that you could specify which planes had that skin .. or better yet if they let it apply only to static AC.. I think the fears of "hot pink enemy planes" is waaay over exagerrated.. I have gotten shot down so may times by pilots I saw coming .... LOL..
http://file.walagata.com/w/bearcat/il2fb_2008-07-05_02-32-48-98.jpg
... maybe a handfull of skinnable objects ...
http://file.walagata.com/w/bearcat/il2fb_2008-07-05_02-30-12-28.jpg
There are 50 109 variants in HSFX and even more in UP .. The stock sim carries 22 Spits, 15 109s, 9 190s, 10 Zeroes. I would love to see even one of the mod Mustangs either the D25 or the D30 and additions to the lodouts that are already there ... They have already fixed the FM of the stock Mustangs.. a huge plus .. and maybe.. just maybe if doable .. openable canopies.. I know what a nightmare that was with the mods.. but if it was done in the stock sim.. some of those issues would be rendered moot and I also believe that that too wold add to the immersion factor of the sim. It is still about immersion. That was one thing that this sim did better than any other... for a very long time.. and stil does very well .. over a decade later. That's saying tons.

Some of the mod maps are nice as well.. even if TD took them and made them better because they have to full tools so to speak.

All in all I think that the future of this sim lies with TD and not with mods.. How bright that future will be .. (60W, 75W, 100W 150W+ etc.. :) ) I honestly believe will depend on how many of the feature mods they incorporate into the stock sim.

I realize that there will probably be things that 1C will just not allow because it may conflict with the SoW series.. but there is still a lot that can be added that would not take goo gobs of work but would make the stock sim that much more appealing.

[fruitbat]

Again +1 on Vpmedias skin mod, over the last 4 years or so thats gone in every one of my various installs slowly getting more comprehensive, and i've pretty much changed all the default skins now to my favs. Love that it changes static planes as well, makes populated airfields look so much better imo, and like how you can specify a desert, winter and summer skin that changes automatically depending on the map.

changing

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/1606201012-47-15.jpg

to

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/1606201013-42-16.jpg

[Bearcat]

I never knew I could do that with the skin mod..

[daidalos.team]

@Asheshouse, nothing personal against you, but releasing additional NG content could harm the IL-2 owner financially (if done by TD). It's easier to break rules then to follow them even though you may not like them. If there was a real threat to you from NG, you would drop your work tonight. It's the anonymity of Internet that allow people to bypass rules they will or do respect in their real lifes.

There is a finished model of Yorktown available to TD for years, but we will not release it not to jeopardize 1C. One 3D model is not worth the risk.

Martin

Disclaimer: No mods were harmed in the making of this thread.


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/Asheshouse/image08-4.jpg

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

...and its looking like this:

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/8363/yktna.jpg

[KG26_Alpha]

The problem is your getting a very particular single thing from the mods to make your experience better, but the overall impact is bigger.

New pilots coming to HL give up because of the complexity of getting into a server due to the variation of installations.

I can sit there for hours giving advice on installing IL2 1946 patches, then the mods mob take over bombarding new guys with the best mod pack the new guys leaves confused or follows the advice and cant join any servers due to time outs or messed up installations.

I'm all for developing IL2 1946 into a bigger better sim/game and it seems to be heading in the right direction, the quality control probably filters out most of the "feature mods" you mention as some of them cause more problems globally rather than individually, ecran wide heavily loaded cockpits polys etc etc.

As it stands were loosing new pilots by the bucket load.

And calling them fools is not the way to go just because they don't follow your way of mod's thinking.

UP3 RC4 is no longer supporting CooP missions only MDS code.

And I see Fruitbats already calling for the death of CooP missions. > http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php/topic,5059.0.html

How long will it be before the mod pack makers start deciding the way they want you to fly IL2 1946 ?


.

[Asheshouse]

Very nice model of Enterprise (not Yorktown). Believe me. I fully understand why this cannot be released through TD. As for NG, in my view, the only rights they have gained are those which they obtained when 1C were forced into an agreement under duress. --- but thats all covered on another exhausted thread. I do not believe that I am breaking any rules or laws or breaching any ones copyright by working on my current project. If I did believe that then of course I wouldn't do it, anonymously or otherwise.

Ashe

[Jumoschwanz]

KG_26 Alpha pretty much sums up my thinking with his last post on this subject.

I have installed mods and flown them both off and online in the past. The extra features and aircraft and hollywood effects they offered were interesting but I never thought they were worth risking the flight sim and community for.

I tried track IR too, bought one brand new for myself, and it seemed more trouble than it was worth. I don't know how many guys I have flown with that had it go wacky on them during a flight and had to bow out to get their **** back together and working for them.

Very often I always told newcomers to IL2 that all they needed to fly online with anyone toe-to-toe was an up-to-date installation and a twisty-stick with a good hat-switch. It is all I have been using for many years. My Microsoft Precision 2, which I recently bought for $5 at a thrift shop, is installed and used with all default settings.

That is the way to sell the sim to those newly interested in it as far as I am concerned. Then they can just have fun instead of worrying about gadgets and extra software that they certainly do not need at all to have fabulous times with IL2 Sturmovik.
Later on after they get their sea-legs then they will do whatever they want, but Like Alpha said, I have seen dozens of people on Hyperlobby chat struggling for no good reason with mod installations and fancy hardware, and I would not blame them at all for quickly deciding that it is all too much compared to their gaming boxes and simpler distractions out there.

After over a decade I still enjoy flying the official version of IL2 and using the same stick because it does the job and I don't have to think about anything unless I feel like it.

Thank you to all the modelers and coders who have helped Oleg and company and TD work on the sim to keep improving it, and no thank you to those who have put themselves before it. That has always been my point.

[Bearcat]

The problem is your getting a very particular single thing from the mods to make your experience better, but the overall impact is bigger.
New pilots coming to HL give up because of the complexity of getting into a server due to the variation of installations.
I can sit there for hours giving advice on installing IL2 1946 patches, then the mods mob take over bombarding new guys with the best mod pack the new guys leaves confused or follows the advice and cant join any servers due to time outs or messed up installations
I'm all for developing IL2 1946 into a bigger better sim/game and it seems to be heading in the right direction, the quality control probably filters out most of the "feature mods" you mention as some of them cause more problems globally rather than individually, ecran wide heavily loaded cockpits polys etc etc.
As it stands were loosing new pilots by the bucket load.
And calling them fools is not the way to go just because they don't follow your way of mod's thinking.
UP3 RC4 is no longer supporting CooP missions only MDS code.
And I see Fruitbats already calling for the death of CooP missions. > http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php/topic,5059.0.html
How long will it be before the mod pack makers start deciding the way they want you to fly IL2 1946
.

Nowhere did I call anyone a fool. If that is not how I roll. If you interpreted my statement as saying you or anyone else was a fool then I apologize, but you misunderstood (If that was indeed your interpretation of what I said). What I said was that this argument or debate if you will, over mods is a foolish waste of time.... and I stand by that firmly. The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time. What will save this sim in the long run is for as many well done mods as possible to be incorporated into the stock sim where and if they can be and for whatever new stuff TD can come up with based on their having the green light from 1C, that the mod community will have to piecemeal being added as time and resources permit thereby making the stock sim more appealing to a broader spectrum of simmers. Evidence for this is already seen in that there are more people flying stock now than any other time since the whole mod community took off. I believe that this is because TD added some of the better, more functionally imersive modsntonthe stock sim and added more of their own content as I said. I think it is great and I would like nothing more than to be able to go into a few decent stock servers, coops ot otherwise, and have a blast. That will be more likely as long as TD keeps going in the direction it is going. That is all I am saying.

[HundertneunGustav]

easy online = new pilots?
are we losing?
the online arguments are okay.
but if we discuss "pilot losses" then one question must also be asked: where are these new pilots recruited from?
online in some sort (forums, mail, newsgroups, other online sims) or do they have an offline providence of some sort?

[KG26_Alpha]

easy online = new pilots?
are we losing?
the online arguments are okay.
but if we discuss "pilot losses" then one question must also be asked: where are these new pilots recruited from?
online in some sort (forums, mail, newsgroups, other online sims) or do they have an offline providence of some sort?

A lot of new guys are coming from Steam's IL2 1946 and Cliffs Of Dover.

Also, especially on a few squads I speak with, one guy tries it and tells his friends etc etc.

[HundertneunGustav]

4 new members of the SAS have discovered how to fly a "tiger moth" on my desktop... two months ago.

2 of them never considered flying a plane before at all - to them, they were just flying buses with toilets and stewardesses.

Their luck - Monday the youngest of them, 11 years old, beat all of the others: he was the first to be able to take off, place a set of rockets on target and land properly.

Full switch, in a T-6 Texan. It lasted no more than ten minutes, but the Kid was exhausted after that. X-52 and TrackIR... sure got his brain heated up. The others are soon to follow.

they felt the pressure, and are sending me UP/DBW tracks everyday.

;)

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Love that it changes static planes as well, makes populated airfields look so much better imo, and like how you can specify a desert, winter and summer skin that changes automatically depending on the map.

cough cough... stock 4.11... ;)
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/grab0116.jpg

[KG26_Alpha]

[QUOTE=_1SMV_Gitano;389602]cough cough... stock 4.11... ;)

LOL

I saw that too but thought surely he must know :)

[fruitbat]

Yes, but i can't choose the skin myself, that's the difference.

Would love that to be a stock feature though.......

[KG26_Alpha]

Yes, but i can't choose the skin myself, that's the difference.

Would love that to be a stock feature though.......

We are referring to the fact you were talking about automatically changing the skin for the map in your earlier post.

Also

You can select the skin as the default skin for the map in v4.11.

[Bearcat]

Yes, but i can't choose the skin myself, that's the difference.

Would love that to be a stock feature though.......

Precisely .. make it so there is a default .. and a variable slot .. even if there is only one variable.. and if that is set to say 0 in the config file then it will automatically use the default .. but if set to 1 it will use whatever custom skin you have selected.

.. and guys just be absolutely clear on this .. I use mods .. I like some of them .. but IMO as I have said .. the future of this sim lies with TD and their work.. whatev4r mod pack tat makes itslef most compatible with the stock sim will be on my HD .. but the work that TD does isn ivaluable to keeping this sim alive and IMO if it were just left solely to the mod community we would have even more fracturing. The fact that there have always been dedicated stock servers on HL says a lot .. the fact that there are more now ... and that they are being utilized says even more.

[KG26_Alpha]

Precisely .. make it so there is a default .. and a variable slot .. even if there is only one variable.. and if that is set to say 0 in the config file then it will automatically use the default .. but if set to 1 it will use whatever custom skin you have selected.



It looks like the automatic skin selection for static planes might be dependant on the type of aircraft, it might be that there's no skin for it because it was never used in that map/theatre.

Certainly a manual skin option for static aircraft/vehicles would be preferred so we can place stuff in there with a winter/desert skin on it :)





.

[Oscarito]

Interesting thread! I've read almost all the posts just to realize that everyone has a good reason. Talking by myself I could live without Mods if the official team paid more attention to some subtle aspects of this game.
Realistic FM's and all related historical/technical stuff are very important, of course. But this is still a "game" (at least for me..), and games are intended for fun. In this sense I mean sound and image, basically. Yes, terrific sounds, amazing effects, etc. Like a Matinée:grin:
For example, I can not understand why that ugly smoke effect from damaged planes remains untouched all these years! Same for some engine sounds that remembers me a scooter instead of a fighter plane. Such things seems to me as easy to be implemented. I'm sure you can do that at a wink of an eye if you want. Then everyone would be satisfied, with realism, historical accuracy, immersion, fun, everything! Community would be joined again and we could experience a revival!
You see, currently I have two game versions installed:
.Official version, to play campaigns, etc, alone at home.
.Modded version, to make vids and proudly show to my friends.
Why not just one game?;)

[csThor]

The sound issue is quite easily explained: Daidalos has to do things "by the book" and adhere to copyrights and such things whereas what an individual does on his own PC is of no importance to anyone else. Which means TD just can't pick sound samples from "somewhere" and plug them in. The result could be an ugly copyright infringement and that would be the end of TD.

Remember TD signed a contract with 1C so we're bound by rules and regulations which we can't and won't break.

[daidalos.team]

Oscarito, we will be turning our attention to visuals/audio in the future (within the limits Thor has mentioned above). For the last 4.10/4.11 TD patches, we wanted to update the core features of the sim first.

[fruitbat]

Oscarito, we will be turning our attention to visuals/audio in the future (within the limits Thor has mentioned above).

Interesting.......:grin:

[Jumoschwanz]

The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time.

Well Bearcat then why don't you take that advice and quit participating in something foolish? Debating it? I guess you have to here because you can not BAN people here for starting threads that have critical discussion on the subject like you can at the UBI General Discussion Forum huh? That is why I am banned from the UBI forum. That is what Hitler and other Dictator's do to those with critical opinions who want to practice free speech, and it has been your choice to follow their practices......

It is worth my time to try to make sure people see my point of view, which has always been that the negative impact that non-official mods have had on the IL2 Community and the IL2 sim itself makes them not worth spending time on except for those with self-serving motives.

To some people IL2 Sturmovik is a historical flight sim, to others it is a game, to some it is a social network, and to others who enjoy making mods it is a hobby. That is all fine because IL2 can be all those things, but at times in the past members of some of those groups have put their interests forward at the expense of others.

I was just reading a statement in another thread a modder made about decreasing the armor of tanks from their historical value in UP to "maintain game balance". That is a simple personal judgement call they have made there that can not be switched off by those flying UP. This is just like WD's big tirade about how HE thinks aircraft should overheat and his personal efforts to revert the overheating back to 4.10.

True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around.

For five years Bearcat you have tirelessly put energy into promoting mods on the UBI forum and you have tirelessly suppressed naysayers to serve your special interest. That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh?

[Asheshouse]

Free speech is a right not an obligation.

[HundertneunGustav]

" That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh? "

I think that Bearcat has the ability to sort of "stand on the moon" and observe from a distanced, far off neutral point the pros and the cons of something. Mods, no mods...

The man might see both sides of the medal, could that be the case? choosing which side he wants depending on what he wants to do with the Program at a given time?

And, is that not, sort of, wisdom?

"True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around."

Negative. IMO... negative.
Over at the SAS there are a bunch of Dinosaurs ( tongue in cheek) that hold on to a 4.09 version. (with or without mods)

If the official Version is "the most important one to rally around", that would at the moment be 4.11, right?

so, are the 4.09 fans or the standard, 4.07 players making a mistake, are they veering off the right/official track, just like the modders do? For what ever their reasons are?

are the people with 4.07/4.09 + mods even worse, even further, even farther from the official path, because they lack updates AND are screwing with the files?

"The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time."

Thats a good sentence...
It leads to my question, an honest and innocent one:
What exactly is the aim, the goal of this topic? Besides stating your position and opinion?

Besides learning to appreciate your point of View and your arguments, i can not see how it should teach me something else.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

:)

[Bearcat]

Well Bearcat then why don't you take that advice and quit participating in something foolish? Debating it? I guess you have to here because you can not BAN people here for starting threads that have critical discussion on the subject like you can at the UBI General Discussion Forum huh? That is why I am banned from the UBI forum. That is what Hitler and other Dictator's do to those with critical opinions who want to practice free speech, and it has been your choice to follow their practices......

It is worth my time to try to make sure people see my point of view, which has always been that the negative impact that non-official mods have had on the IL2 Community and the IL2 sim itself makes them not worth spending time on except for those with self-serving motives.

To some people IL2 Sturmovik is a historical flight sim, to others it is a game, to some it is a social network, and to others who enjoy making mods it is a hobby. That is all fine because IL2 can be all those things, but at times in the past members of some of those groups have put their interests forward at the expense of others.

I was just reading a statement in another thread a modder made about decreasing the armor of tanks from their historical value in UP to "maintain game balance". That is a simple personal judgement call they have made there that can not be switched off by those flying UP. This is just like WD's big tirade about how HE thinks aircraft should overheat and his personal efforts to revert the overheating back to 4.10.

True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around.

For five years Bearcat you have tirelessly put energy into promoting mods on the UBI forum and you have tirelessly suppressed naysayers to serve your special interest. That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh?


WTF??!!!

First off ...... I pretty much agree with much of what you have said and I have always stated as much even 3 years ago when I was still a mod at UBI. My contention has always been and will always be that it would have been best if the sim had not been hacked .. but it was ... and as I have said I will always roll with whatever is most compatible with the stock sim.. Had TD been created 4 years ago shortly after the hack, the whole mod debate could have taken a different turn... but you lost me at the end (not that it may matter to you ...) .

HELLO!!

I have not been a mod @ UBI for two years so get your facts straight and since that time I have not been @ UBI much. Secondly I never suppressed anything .. What was suppressed, and this after the whole argument was beaten to death, was the arguments over the pros and cons of mods that always turned into flame fests rife with insults and slander and were moot because the sim was modded. Period. I was not the one who banned you .. not that I recall anyway .. because I usually lifted bans pretty quickly and only issued them for obvious infractions .. not just disagreeing with me... I never rolled that way. Anyone I banned got banned for a reason and the fact that they may have disagreed with me on a particular subject was secondary to the reason for the ban. For you to bring that up now is mind boggling to me.. especially since as I said .. I have been a mod @ UBI for two years almost to the day.

There is a better chance now for the stock sim to recapture a base that was lost to mods than at any time since this all started. So if stock is your thing is it not better to just promote that instead of complaining about something that will not change. The only thing that will change the mod situation to any substantial degree is for TD to continue to do what they are doing and incorporate as many of the features, many that were longtime requests from day one into the stock sim as long as they do not conflict legally or historically or compromise the standards of the sim set forth initially by 1C. Many of the things they have implemented have done just that.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

Pretty much...


So ....if you have an axe to grind with me then take it up in a PM from here on out... This discussion is going apace ... regardless to either your or my opinions .. it seems as if it is leaning towards not that mods are good or bad but what can make the sim better.. and we all seem to agree that making the stock sim more appealing is the answer, and that's a good thing.

[HundertneunGustav]

I went back to the first post, and picked a sentence, that i felt was the center of your opinion:

"Real IL2 aces and make do with what is given to them and fly the official patches without resorting to mods, hacks or cheats."

Let me introduce you to the following. open your mind, just gimme five minutes.

Look, there is "a Dude" here... let me fetch that link... here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,19365.0.html

he did a lot of work on the P-47 Loadouts.

concerning this very, very restricted topic of P-47 Loadouts, and the changes in Mission outcomes, by Bombing strafing and aerial Kills...

who is closer to the absolute truth? Ammo-wise. and ONLY about Ammo.
Is this re-shuffling of Information, the application of that info in the game, is that, as you say - a Cheat? Is it a Hack?

I am not out to pull you to the dark side. I do not want to convince you.

What i want, is to show you that not all of the modding work done is evil.

If you understand what has been changed to the P-47, if you by any chance happen to agree: these changes are not official, but, they are reasonable, you might possibly understand why Bearcat can appreciate, or tolerate Mods.

Because Storebror took a Thunderbolt, and spent some time to learn about the plane, and learn how to bring that Plane a bit closer to reality. Virtual reality.

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

:)

[Bearcat]

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.
:)

Exactly ..

That is the very reason why I feel that the "debate" over mods is silly and a waste of enrrgy often, depending on the language we use any kind of reasonable discussion can be cut off at the pass by a few words. There is a post right now over @ SHQ that is a classic example of how not to try to present a case if you want it to be discussed reasonably or be taken seriously. The fact that some of the mods were quite well done .. and would fit right in with TDs mission is a bright spot and reason why for me, the very existence of TD means a brighter future for this sim. That says that there is a group of folks who will continue to make improvements and add to the sim and they won't have an agenda like some of the mod communities definitely have. The P-51 load outs could use a look as well.. That they carried rockets is well known.. but not in the stock sim..... yet. It is doable. Perhaps a lot of this stuff is already in the pipeline for TD and because they are not being paid and have lives and jobs etc . it just takes a while. That's cool.... but I see a lot of features in the totality of 4.11 ... that started out as mods from the many bi directional axii that once went in ne direction only, to some of the chages in the QMB and more ..... so the mod=evil ... or appreciation for mods=a XXXXXX who just wants to see his favorite crate fly like a banshee and rule the skies .... that does not compute, and that notion along with the angst that fosters it needs to become a thing of the past. Even if there are still JERKS running around... I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist. There will always be some who will prefer modded, there have been cries to open the sim from day one, or those who think that they can do a better job than the stock sim .. or that the stock FMs etc are just wrong.. but I bet if given a reasonable choice .. most would prefer to fly stock.. if for no other reason than security because from where I sit it is a fat that some mod packs seem to favor certain aircraft over others.. while other mod packs seem to be more neutral and where they have tweaked a certain plane they left the stock plane untouched. American planes have always .. it seems to me .. gotten less attention. It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist.

Agreed 100%. Widescreen support, anyone?

[Bearcat]

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here..

[Jumoschwanz]

But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.:)

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here.. So that is a good reason because someone wanted something? A lot of people wanted Brittany Spears and Hitler but that doesn't mean they were any good or were better off getting it.

I guess I had a lot more faith and foresight in IL2 and it's creators than most people. There were right around two dozen official patches for IL2 released in ten years with tons of new aircraft and features, that was enough for me.
As soon as I heard the sim was hacked I knew it was trouble as far as splintering the community and compromising the reputation of IL2.

Before the sim was hacked a lot of individuals helped model aircraft and worked on other features of the sim through official channels working with Oleg and crew. If you want to call them hackers or modders do it, but no matter what they were Good Guys in my book.

But that was not enough for someone though. They either did not have the patience to work with the IL2 crew or they thought they could do a better job themselves. The guys who did not think about the community or working through official channels, and did not think about compromising the reputation of IL2 or splintering the community before they went on their merry ways, in my book those are the Bad Guys, and it is a pretty simple distinction between the two.

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

[mmaruda]

Jumoschwanz, I cannot understand why you argue so much about the mods thing. Get over it, everyone else seems to have. So the sim was hacked, big deal, do you realize how many AAA games get hacked 2 days after release?

If it's cheaters you're worried about, I guess we have a lot less than Call of Duty. And as far as mods go, many people like then, they prolong the life of a game that by normal standards would be dead now and many thing from the mods got into official patches.

Splitting the community? It would be great if someone could make the mod teams and official developers reach an agreement, but at least we have choice. So if you don't like mods, don't play them. As for FM debates, with all respect for Oleg, he is partially responsible for this. I vaguely remember these days, but when the original IL-2 came out noone was complaining. There are still guys out there who lost interest after FB and PF came out, because a lot of things were off (try going back to 1.2, you may find that some FMs defy the laws of physics in some manouvers, sad but true). Ever since then tinkering and discussions started and haven't ended till today. It's always either the Corsair, or the Mustang, or 190. My only problem are the uber Russian Lavochkins, that should be dead meat against a D9, but somehow it's the other way around - why hasn't this been fixed?

You may not like the fact that the glory days of IL-2 are gone, but it happens to all old games. Blaming modders is just wrong. Just play the game and enjoy yourself or move to something else - there's CloD, RoF, DCS and a lot more coming.

[T}{OR]

Blaming mods is as much as bad idea as forcing stock game on everyone. Though 4.11 does offer much more than any moded version for me currently.

What would prolong the games life is a tool which would give servers the more or less complete control with what content one can and can not join a MP game.

[HundertneunGustav]

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....


Jumo - i think the above explains a lot about you.
No, i am not laughing or making fun of you - not at all.
You have patience, thats a good thing.
You have respect for a Game creator. thats a good thing as well.

You know these script kids, these true hackers? The geeks, and groups of geeks, knowledgeable guys that can knock down websites and steal tons of data?

Today, they are on the "bad" side, because they bend and break the rules- tomorrow they land a Job at norton antivirus, because of the stuff they are able to do.

Today, Asheshouse is doing CV5 for Il-2.
Tomorrow he will work on a Ship Simulator you can buy.

Today, some "evil modder" is hard at work learning Java to create his own mod.
Tomorrow, ha goes to a Job interview and kan put that self-aquired knowledge forth to convince the man in front to take him aboard his team.

Today, people are not patient enough to sail across the ocean. so they build the F^king concorde.

Today, people are not willing to ONLY have software that you must pay for. Because of X reasons.
So they bend the rules and write their own stuff.

Such people are often not endlessly patient, nor are they endlessly respectful.
Such people have (discovered?) that they too, are able to "do".

and people that discover their abilities, push their own envelope, that's a good thing in my book.

and the rules of the world are re-written, once again!

back to Il-2, allow me one honest question:

Is the cracking of the game code 100% bad? Has TD not had some sort of inspiration form all the unofficial stuff? Does this "underground" development never ever spawn anything good in official updates?

Let me speculate, no numbers, just concept.

If the Modders would not exist, a lot of them would have wandered off to other horizons already, playing other games.

The forum would be more empty. There would be less ideas generated. Less ideas realized.

There would be less reason for a group such as TD to exist. (less community)

Il-2 would develop slower.

If it would still develop at all.

I take back your original words:

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

The consequence would be (i am a bit extreme here, take it with a grain of salt)
- you would play a game that has not seen 4.10 (less community, less TD, less motivation, less everything)
-you would play that game with the same old folks on your same old HL servers
-you would have been bored by now.

You wouldn't play this game at all any more.

Hm?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

+1

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Well said. +2

[nearmiss]

Mods malady

The more mods the sicker it gets, especially because when there is no one authority.

The servers are the authority now, for controlling online gaming.

The mod packagers are doing their best, to put out decent work.

Then you are going to have those mod devs that will bend all conventions for a 600MPH corsair.

The MSFT CFS2 and 3 community was plagued with the same disease, but there was not history of a online gaming worth much. So, it's harder to make silk purse from pigs ears.

The choices become overwhelming, which was always the value of IL2. Oleg restricted the overwhelming influences of MODS for a very long time.

Anyway, have fun with what you have and don't go too far out on a limb... it may break with you.

[Bearcat]

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

Well I wouldn't call myself old.. but I am closer to 60 than to 50.. (so maybe I'm just in denial.. LOL) but I dunno man ... You roll with it... float ... like a butterfly ..

Blaming mods is as much as bad idea as forcing stock game on everyone. Though 4.11 does offer much more than any moded version for me currently.
What would prolong the games life is a tool which would give servers the more or less complete control with what content one can and can not join a MP game.

Isn't it pretty much like that now... I have accidentally attempted to go into a stock server modded and in a modded server while stock .. and it didn't work .. at least that's my impression.

[Asheshouse]

Today, Asheshouse is doing CV5 for Il-2.
Tomorrow he will work on a Ship Simulator you can buy.


Hey! Is that a job offer? :)

[HundertneunGustav]

shhhh... its a secret... :)

[HundertneunGustav]

The MSFT CFS2 and 3 community was plagued with the same disease, but there was not history of a online gaming worth much. So, it's harder to make silk purse from pigs ears.


Mods malady?
i would like to strongly disagree.
VERY strong disagree indeed!

I have seen CFS3, so let me get the ball rolling with these arguments:

-stock flightmodels not for real.
a spit that can do 15...20 loopings in a row, starting at treetop level and ending at 1000 feet...
NO.

-stock FMs/DMs incomplete
No overheating... one Bullet coming close to the engine cowling = dead engine within 10 minutes.

-AI not well developped
Stock AI started shooting as soon as they were in Range - if a weapon had an effective Range of 1000 meters, that would be the exactly the range at which you could expect a AI to start shooting at you. (icons)

-Stock Equipment incomplete.
G6, G10; A5 and A8 for german Prop fighters...
B and D Mustang B and D thud for the Yanks.
Spit9C and 9E (spit9E =.50 cals outside the Hispano, on the inner .303 position)

-Game designed in a Way that everyone can see and edit the files, Following the CFS2, Flight simulator Philosophy.

-Microsoft Simulators have always been designed to entice the community to produce stuff on their own.
Hence their releases of SDKs.

CFS2, and 3 had no mod malady.
They worked exactly as designed by their creators.

Mods filled the gaping holes of what was an arcade shooter with
-corrected content, the community went to great lengths to put the credo "as real as it gets" into action
-new content

[ACE-OF-ACES]

CFS2, and 3 had no mod malady.
They worked exactly as designed by their creators.
True..

But, correct me if I am wrong, nearmiss was refering to 3rd party addons, thus simply replace the word 'mod' in his post with '3rd party addon' and I belive his point will be more clear

That being there should be only one! ;)

Which I am on the fence about.. I can see the pros and cons of there being more than one

If I had my way, no mod or mod pack would touch the FMs of the stock (Oleg) planes.. If you as a mod maker and FM tweaker think you can do a better job than Oleg, Fine! Just do us who may not agree with you a favor and make a new slot for said plane and put in your own FM. I know it can be messy, two versions of the same plane, but if all mods and mod pack did it that way it would leave the 'choice' at the user level, that is to say you would not be forced to use the mod makers version of how he thinks it should be.

[HundertneunGustav]

Hmm. Online flying...

well, he was also referring to online playability - for which there were other issues: the online gaming code from CFS2 had these "airplane Bubbles" that made the standard Plane DM redundant, and for CFS3 the code was so messed up, the planes spent more time skidding sidaways and underground than anything else.

But - in CFS3 you couldnt mess with your plane like in CFS2. one change, one adjustment, even if it was a "limiting" one was detected, and you were told to bugger off by the error message system "Game version not compatible - go ***k yourself, you cheater"


Not touching the Stock FM
********************

That's the old AAA way to do things. Limited sharing of knowledge, mistrust in the userbase, concurrence thinking, everyone having different opinions...
Prohibition to touch stock, and a Gazillion of Variants of the same plane by a dozen different people.

The result is those famous Java memory limitations getting in the user' s way.
So far that Slots have to be "unified" and small features dropped, because, as you describe, everyone is able to interpret planes in a different way and add/ remove features as they want.

But - and that is an amazing effect i have seen:
Common sense kicks in, at least somewhat.
An example:
You know we had about , like, 50 or so 109s available for use... a ridiculous amount of 109Gs of every mix and Match, erla, tall tail, AS or not, wheel sizes, MG 151/20 in the nose or MK108 only, Wurfgranaten or not, Recce, semi-whatif variants, pressurized cockpits, *head shaking*

you know the mess the 109 is yourself, they botched them together like a desperate nation does...

there were so many (accurate?) variants of Planes available, that for Major Modpacks to be possible, slots had to be merged, some features that made little if any difference dropped.

I found that awesome. Common sense had kicked in - and it had happened in a community of people that broke the laws, a community that hacked games!

Technical limitations were discovered, and people realized they could not expand limitless. They became reasonable. (if i may call it that)

And also - the modders do not touch the FMs much any more. Once a beta plane has had a few limited workovers, and nobody really complains about the FM/DM any more, its pretty much settled.
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/board,194.0.html
There you see a fair amount of FM discussion, true. But Its not the screaming we have here about a nerfed F4U and entire squads being involved in proving that "TD is wrong" and such things.

And i think that things such as the corrected Loadouts would not be possible either, since FM and loadouts are somehow interconnected.

Online= important
=============

I see your point!
Il-2 was, and still IS, the only WWII CFS to handle the Online thing well.

I never used the Game' s online interface, but last time i was in Hyperlobby (2007... wayyyy back) things were freaking SMOOTH!
Carrier landings!
Formation flights, wingtip to wingtip!
Racing Mig's and Mustangs around the circuit - sometimes mere inches from one another!
accurate 37mm Shots!
little if any lag spikes!

gee, the developers of the game "had it nailed" in my opinion.

Preserving this great asset for the user, i can understand that people are very passionate about it.

Were my life circumstances different, i would be an "onliner" too, and not be in the "pure offliner" camp.
(I would spend an unhealthy amount of time flying online... i f'kin swear!)

I would be, like you, on the fence.

Switching - Being able to join every Game there is.
-------------------------------------------------
Storebror he made that selector program... be able to switch from Stock 4.101 to "any and all mods" with a click.
And with such a setup, joining a specfic server is much less of a hassle than ever before.

not perfect auto-detection of "server game and mod version" --> launching appropriate game, but still...

Its not so bad, i recon.
whats out there at the moment, server-wise?
Stock?
DBW?
UP3?
HSFX? il-2 1956 (?)
Maybe even DBW 1916?

If so, joining them is a matter of reading the server info, and before jumping into the server via hyperlobby, adjusting your game version in the selector.

Its not perfect... but Its the best there is at the moment.

If i had my way
=============
I would want it all.
I would want the stuff that TD puts into the game to be in perfect harmony with my favourite Modpack, which is DBW on top of a UP3.

How that? Let me dream for a moment.
Hmm, maybe TD could focus on the code, the features, the "stuff behind the curtain" while the Modders could bring new content , to make use of the "code behind the curtain".

For example:
Let TD Implement the ability to have 12 prop pitch and 12 power axis per plane.
Let the Modders Make a Plane that has 12 prop engines.

Let TD implement Chaff and Flares
Let the Modders create these countermeasures on the newly released Phantom.

Let TD implement code for ground based interceptions
Let the Modders make a Mig-25 Foxbat.

Let TD implement Carrier Features
Let the Modders Create Carriers from USS Langley to Admiral Kuznetzov.

Let TD implement advanced plane features and malfunctions, failures and Systems (icing on wings, freezing guns and windows, ... the forum is full of stuff like that)
Let the Modders create planes that were well know to suffer from said failures, or put the necessary code into the old planes that have existed for a decade now.
(assymetrical Slats on the 109, de-icing ballons on the american Bomber wings, damaged oxygen systems letting AI gunners die, and AI pilots dive for the deck... your imagination is the limit)

I think such a setup would be ... awesome.
Then it is a Matter to decide whet mods come into the official Updates.

But it aint gonna happen...
:)

[Ra'Kaan]

I was going through some old patch notes and I came across this info:


Content of 410m.exe

Main features:
MDS (Moving Dogfight Server).
MDS was originally released as un-official modification for IL-2 by Zuti.


My point is that is seems that TD and modders have already been collaborating on some things.

This was news to me, but probably old info for most.

I'm sure with the proper communications and permissions etc. we may be seeing some more mods implemented into official patches in the future.

I for one would love to see some coordination to include FOV correction for widescreen such as San's FOV changer in an official patch. :)

[MOH_Hirth]

Talking about mods is allowed on this forum, does that mean that it has to all be positive? Blowing sunshine up someone's skirt? Opposing opinions and criticism are part of free speech and free societies, especially if they are facts.
The last things I have to say on the subject is that if I can learn to fly, compete, fight and have fun using the official patches of IL2 and you can not without using modifications, hacks and cheats, then yes, I am better than you.

And if I choose to stick by the official version of IL2 and back up those who work on it instead of complaining about it and modding it after only trying it for a few days, then that makes me feel better about myself too.

Those who can do, and those who can't use mods, hacks and cheats and will still get shot down anyway... They are not smart enough to realize that the problem lies not with their tools, but with themselves.

Thank you for moving this to the proper forum, the mod forum, and thank you for letting me have my say. I think I am finished now.....


You dont know nothing about mods, you are just a radiacal anti-mod, there is a lot of great improvements by modders with hight quality, but if dont want to see at last close your mounth!

[Whacker]

This thread has been an eye opener, and makes me very sad.

[HundertneunGustav]

Hmm.
Why that?
I mean, the "becoming sad" part?

[Treetop64]

Hmm.
Why that?
I mean, the "becoming sad" part?


I think he's referring to the obnoxiously fascist stance some here have taken in regards to tolerating or respecting (or lack thereof) the opinion of others.

Personally, I'm not a fan of most of the mods, particularly the packaged "mega-mods", and I've experienced that many mods only change something simply for the sake of changing it, without actually making an improvement of some kind, and almost universally at a cost to game performance and reliability. Some mods are fantastic, like the new MiG-3 visual model and some of the maps, a few of which have been incorporated into recent patches.

Many additions in the game going all the way back to v1.10 come from third-party contributors. The user flyable I-16 Types 18 and 24 were originally conceived as mods, albeit policed to an acceptable standard by Maddox Games. So just because something is a mod doesn't mean that's it's evil.

[HundertneunGustav]

well you teach me something new... :)
loved the 24 for a time... resonably fast, a set of rockets and two cannons.... what else could you want?
but you had to take good care flying that sucker... his shortness made him unstable sometimes. and the engine conk-out made me mkuch more aware of how i fly, and made me antcipate manoevers differently.
Yea, yea... the Rata was a good, if difficult, lesson!

people are what people are. Hope for the best. but expect a ****tload of unpleasant surprises.

[Treetop64]

I'm a fan of the later Mark I-16s. Obscenely simple and antiquated by the time of Barbarossa but could still be very dangerous if handled by an aggressive, competent, and experienced pilot. Especially in the game. The 24 in particular can make a bad day for an Emil or even an F2. :)

[JG52Karaya]

Well too bad then that our 24 is actually a 28, the real aircraft was just an upengined Type 18, nothing more. Would be interesting to get the (mod) Type 29 into the stock game though!

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Just stepped in. Didn't take part in this discussion (I'm too frightened of the topic). Just have read the last few pages. Lots of good postings there IMHO.
I get the feeling, that things have settled down and going well all together during the last half year. :cool:

Wanted to tell Bearcat something...:

It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

We only corrected the length, that had a wrong value. Its longer now, which has influence of the calculation of the FM. A bit more stable of course.

[Bearcat]

Just stepped in. Didn't take part in this discussion (I'm too frightened of the topic). Just have read the last few pages. Lots of good postings there IMHO.
I get the feeling, that things have settled down and going well all together during the last half year. :cool:
Wanted to tell Bearcat something...:
We only corrected the length, that had a wrong value. Its longer now, which has influence of the calculation of the FM. A bit more stable of course.


Regardless to what was done the fact remains that you guys fixed it.. the stock aircraft is a much more stable aircraft now than it was before while retaining a lot of the twitchiness that Mustangs are famous for.. and it was obviously a flaw from the beginning that no one investigated until TD took the time to look at the facts as proven by others (thanks to mods) and after all was said and done you guys fixed it .. and for that I am very grateful.. :)