Lorenz for Long Runways

[greybeard1]

I would just ask which are Long Runways.

Thanks a lot to TD and whoever collaborated to this great piece of realism and immersion for IL-2.

GB

[Pfeil]

Heh. I posted this topic (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29196) over a week ago with the same question. I've yet to get a reply.

I greatly enjoy using the navigation objects. However, the "ILS" systems are hard to place correctly without detailed information.

The regular Lorenz is described, but for runways longer than 1700m you can hardly place the shack in the middle of the tarmac.

[Buster_Dee]

I don't have anything useful to add. If you're talking about the checkerboard building, that was the 1st model I ever officially got into a game.

Woohoo!!!

[greybeard1]

I don't have anything useful to add. If you're talking about the checkerboard building, that was the 1st model I ever officially got into a game.

Woohoo!!!

Do you mean you're the author of Lorenz Blind Landing System added in 4.10? :shock:

And you're calling it "checkerboard building"? I wonder if you were aware of what you were doing... Sure I believe you've anything useful to add!

Pitifully yours,
GB

[Buster_Dee]

I think there are two landing systems now (I don't fly much, as I'm plugging away trying to learn modeling). The one I made has the orange and white roof and a generator next to it (there's a variant in game for the beacons I sent them later). The array is on 3 posts, with clearance lights on one of them. I think TD may have used parts of models I did for them before (they made changes or just used part of those models. I just don't remember the chronology), but I think this is the 1st model they were able to use as is.

That said, I have no clue how it gets programmed or incorporated into the game. That's a lot of work and pure smoke and mirrors to me.

[KG26_Alpha]

I would just ask which are Long Runways.

Thanks a lot to TD and whoever collaborated to this great piece of realism and immersion for IL-2.

GB

Heh. I posted this topic (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29196) over a week ago with the same question. I've yet to get a reply.

I greatly enjoy using the navigation objects. However, the "ILS" systems are hard to place correctly without detailed information.

The regular Lorenz is described, but for runways longer than 1700m you can hardly place the shack in the middle of the tarmac.

This will you help with beacon placement and how to use the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrUnwHc4Kg&feature=player_embedded#!

[Pfeil]

I would recommend that video to anyone looking to learn about the navaids added in 4.10.

However, I don't see how it's relevant to this particular question. Unless I missed something, the video only shows the placement of the regular lorenz beacon through the FMB.

My question is not how to place it or use it, but how far from the runway the other directional landing beacons should be placed.

For the regular Lorenz, we know it's designed for a 1700 meter runway. If the runway is shorter, the beacon(the shack itself) can be placed further from the end of the runway to compensate.
If the runway is longer, another beacon must be used.

What I need to know for accurate placement is what runway length these beacons are designed for. This information is not in the manual.


Initially I assumed the landing beacons would bind to a runway, like a landing waypoint(or a sided light) does, and take the runway location data from there. However the distance of the marker beacons is independant of runway location, as I proved by placing a beacon in the middle of nowhere.

[KG26_Alpha]

I would just ask which are Long Runways.

Thanks a lot to TD and whoever collaborated to this great piece of realism and immersion for IL-2.

GB

Long runways are usually the concrete ones.

Heh. I posted this topic (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29196) over a week ago with the same question. I've yet to get a reply.

I greatly enjoy using the navigation objects. However, the "ILS" systems are hard to place correctly without detailed information.

The regular Lorenz is described, but for runways longer than 1700m you can hardly place the shack in the middle of the tarmac.

There's along runway Lorenz object in the FMB

I would recommend that video to anyone looking to learn about the navaids added in 4.10.

However, I don't see how it's relevant to this particular question. Unless I missed something, the video only shows the placement of the regular lorenz beacon through the FMB.

My question is not how to place it or use it, but how far from the runway the other directional landing beacons should be placed.

For the regular Lorenz, we know it's designed for a 1700 meter runway. If the runway is shorter, the beacon(the shack itself) can be placed further from the end of the runway to compensate.
If the runway is longer, another beacon must be used.

What I need to know for accurate placement is what runway length these beacons are designed for. This information is not in the manual.


Initially I assumed the landing beacons would bind to a runway, like a landing waypoint(or a sided light) does, and take the runway location data from there. However the distance of the marker beacons is independant of runway location, as I proved by placing a beacon in the middle of nowhere.

Placement of beacons can be historical if you have the original maps from that period and place the ndb's as they were then.

Otherwise its up to you as the mission builder to put them where you want to depending on the missions objectives.

I suggest testing the Lorenz placement for the outer marker and inner marker indicators as suits the type used.

[Pfeil]

To partially answer my own question(Are there only short and long runways of fixed lengths), I did the following on the New Guinea map:

Fully zoomed in on each runway, place a waypoint at the beginning and end. Right on the edge, using the lines between the tiles or mats to align them.
A pair of independent waypoints per runway that are only connected to eachother, not the other waypoints/runways.

Set the speed for each waypoint to 6kph using a text editor.

Looking at the second waypoint in each set, noted the time.
At 6kph, 1km takes 10 minutes, so an arrival time of 12:17(mission starts at 12:00) makes for a distance of 1700 meters.

Using this method, I determined the runway length for all airfields(Note that there is a margin of error for the few grass runways, as the beginning, end and centerline are hard to determine):

Vivigani: 1700m x2 (IRL 2000m)
Garuahi LG: 1200m
Turnbull LG: 1600m
Gurney Airfield: 1600m
No. 2 Strip: 1600m
Sagari LG: 1200m
DOB 1: 1600m
DOB 3: 1600m
New Strip: 1200m
Old Strip: 1600m
Soputa: 1600m
DOB 2: 1200m
Unknown(Between Fighter Strip and DOB 2): 1200m
Fighter Strip: 1600m
DOB 4: 1200m
POP3: 1600m
Kila Airdrome: 2200m
Jackson Airdrome: 1700m
Wards Airdrome: 1700m x2
Durand Airdrome: 1600m
Schwimmer Airdrome: 1600m
Berry Airdrome: 1600m
Boera Field: 1600m



This gives us the following lengths: 1200m, 1600m, 1700m and 2200m.

I've checked Vivigani and Garuahi LG, and neither have historically accurate runways. Even then, using historical data for beacon placement is only possible for a small number of airfields.


Measuring this is relatively simple, though time consuming.
This method could be used to determine the beacon location. However, as there are so many variables involved, I believe this would be inaccurate at best.

I just need the hard data, as already supplied in the manual for the regular lorenz beacon, of the two other landing beacons.

[KG26_Alpha]

I didn't find any data except for Lorenz blind landing system.

[Pfeil]

I didn't find any data except for Lorenz blind landing system.

It doesn't appear to be documented.

At this point, I believe only someone with access to the sourcecode could find the proper values. Unless they're in a design document somewhere.

Either way, if someone from Daidalos Team has the time to look into this, it would be most appreciated. Though I do realize other issues have priority.

[Buster_Dee]

Maybe I'm missing the point. It might be easier to place if the center of the icon represented the inner marker, which I think is touchdown. Then, placing the object in FMB might require nothing more than making sure that, in 3D mode, the building is off the runway when the inner marker is aligned with touchdown point. If it can't be done, that particular Lorenze can't service that runway.

[IvanK]

I will check with the coder of Lorenz and ILS.

[Pfeil]

Maybe I'm missing the point. It might be easier to place if the center of the icon represented the inner marker, which I think is touchdown. Then, placing the object in FMB might require nothing more than making sure that, in 3D mode, the building is off the runway when the inner marker is aligned with touchdown point. If it can't be done, that particular Lorenz can't service that runway.

The regular Lorenz has the inner marker 300 meters before the start of the runway, so I don't think that would work.

I would instead suggest a line at the expected runway start. This would also be useful for aligning the Lorenz with the angle of the runway.

Having icons where the outer and inner markers are could also be useful.
If these are combined with objects to represent the markers, they could be placed manually.
This prevents problems with terrain elevation that would occur if the marker objects were part of the beacon model(I.E. floating or underground marker placement).

I will check with the coder of Lorenz and ILS.

Thank you IvanK. I'm looking forward to finding out.