Patch 4.11 is a gift to open pit UFO fliers

[WhistlinggDeath]

After some testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself. Did you really need to boost the ranks of the already numerous and less than adequately skilled 185 M-71 and Spit 25lbs pilots Team D?

I dont believe in aviation history bookfights over whose book is more accurate, so later this week I am working on arranging a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee airman and perhaps a German FW Dora pilot. I dont believe planes overheated in 30 seconds on boost, but I will ask them in detail. This patch is messed up TD in the overheat department. And yes, the TA was a monster in real life and 4.11 just crippled the $%#! out of it.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

[IceFire]

TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.
In a not very scientific test I ran a Ta152H-1 on the Bessarabia map at 90% for two minutes followed by 110% run with MW50 engaged in a slight climb and it was another 2 minutes and 35-40ish seconds before I got the overheat warning. I ran that for another minute and then backed off to 80% and the engine cooled rapidly and I was on my way again.

Whats your testing methodology that gets you a 20 second overheat?

[KG26_Alpha]

After some testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself. Did you really need to boost the ranks of the already numerous and less than adequately skilled 185 M-71 and Spit 25lbs pilots Team D?

I dont believe in aviation history bookfights over whose book is more accurate, so later this week I am working on arranging a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee airman and perhaps a German FW Dora pilot. I dont believe planes overheated in 30 seconds on boost, but I will ask them in detail. This patch is messed up TD in the overheat department. And yes, the TA was a monster in real life and 4.11 just crippled the $%#! out of it.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

Nice first post lol.

Anyway......................before getting on the phone and bothering those elderly gentlemen with your dilemma.

Please read the v4.11 manual regarding overheat.

4.11 introduces a more detailed and more accurate radiator model. It is different from the
previous model in many ways, the main differences being:

• radiator settings now have an impact on both water/cylinder and oil temperature
• outside temperature now has an impact on oil temperatures
• engine rpm has a bigger impact
• impact of WEP is dependent on extra power generated
• mixture setting has an impact
• the density of the air has an impact
• aircraft speed has a bigger impact
• there is no longer a fixed period after which damage occurs in case of overheat
• introducing a random chance for damage depending on how strongly the engine
overheats
• type of damage is depending on if it is water/cylinder or oil overheating

You will generally find that the planes overheat a lot more, in particular if you are not on a cold
map in fast level flight. As a guideline, on hotter maps you can expect fighters to be able to
sustain about 70% power at 70% pitch without overheating radiators closed, for bombers it is
somewhat more. The values in many cases are reasonably close to real life maximum
continuous settings (please don't go by cockpit gauges, they aren't always accurate).
If you start a low speed full power dogfight with a closed radiator, you can expect the engine
to overheat rapidly and to get damaged quickly. War emergency power settings should
therefore only be used in an emergency, otherwise your plane might get destroyed without
your enemy even firing a shot.

To keep engine temperatures low, remember:
• use low rpm (reduce pitch), in particular oil temperature are sensitive towards rpm
• use low throttle settings (and avoid WEP)
• open the radiator
• fly faster (don't climb at too low speeds)
• use an as rich mixture as possible



Have fun with the new style of flying .

:)

.

[IvanK]

Hmm !

just done some quick testing aimed and engine destruction. Ignored Overheat message.
Just went balls to the wall to maintain Vmax for as long as possible. Note Overheat message does NOT mean damage imminent ... its just a heads up to keep an eye on things.

TA152H
Sea Level Normandy Map, Midday, Rad Full open Max ATA, Max RPM, MW50
Overheat message appeared at 1min 33 secs elapsed time
No engine damage noticeable until 5min 58secs elapsed ... feint grey smoke
At 8min 38 seconds significant damage ... RPM reductions in the order of 100RPM
Progressive performance deterioration until at 10min 19secs insufficient power to maintain level flight.

P51D
Sea Level Normandy Map Midday,Rad Full Open, 67"MAP (WEP) 3000RPM,
Overheat message illuminated at 2min 4 seconds elapsed
Slight performance degradation (loss of 10Kmh IAS) after 5min 4 seconds elapsed
Oil splatter at 9 min 10 seconds elapsed

You will get slightly different results from test to test as a randomness factor is also at work.

EDIT: since some card read. Start was at Sea level or the closest QMB would give i.e. 100metres.

[WhistlinggDeath]

I will check that objectively Ivan in a bit. You did not specify what alt you started the planes with. Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown). After one or two high climbs (say from 500m back up to 2500m), we are already on overheat. I think I and the other BnZ online fliers welcome proper engine management (at least I do) but why did you ruin the TA ? Across the board, the super planes (185, spit 25lbs, La7) just arent that affected but the BnZ planes are hit hard. It means we spend all our time cooling engines at 70 pitch before we engage again. For offline combat where any IQ 120 seven year old can defeat the AI things may be fairly even, but in online combat, there is now little balance between the BnZ planes which already had a tough time at even steven alt, and the uber planes.

Will check your figures tonight. Please correct the FW, and TA models and make the overheat apply equally to all. The spit 25lbs can go a long time (it seems) with nada, nothing bad happening.

[julien673]

I will check that objectively Ivan in a bit. You did not specify what alt you started the planes with. Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown). After one or two high climbs (say from 500m back up to 2500m), we are already on overheat. I think I and the other BnZ online fliers welcome proper engine management (at least I do) but why did you ruin the TA ? Across the board, the super planes (185, spit 25lbs, La7) just arent that affected but the BnZ planes are hit hard. It means we spend all our time cooling engines at 70 pitch before we engage again. For offline combat where any IQ 120 seven year old can defeat the AI things may be fairly even, but in online combat, there is now little balance between the BnZ planes which already had a tough time at even steven alt, and the uber planes.

Will check your figures tonight. Please correct the FW, and TA models and make the overheat apply equally to all. The spit 25lbs can go a long time (it seems) with nada, nothing bad happening.

mdr

[Jumoschwanz]

After some testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Uh, that is what easy settings/UFO servers and aircraft are for, for gamers not simmers, to have gaming fun in, they are flying there in La7s against other oddball aircraft because history is way down on their list.

The guys flying on hard-settings using wingmen and squads and coms are not worrying about hot-shots in 25lb spit and La7s because their historical tactics easily defeat them, they are not reliant on UFO aircraft like lone-wolf gamers are.

Good job Ivank, bringing reality to the thread, thank-you.

Easier settings dogfight servers are great places to have fun and practice some things, but there is nothing historical or serious about them, and anyone that takes them that way is out to lunch.

Last time I saw WD, he was on a server with outside views and icons flying an La-7 away from trouble as fast as it would go every time and taking the server far too seriously, as gamers do, I can see why he is concerned with the things he is.

[IceFire]

Spitfire LF.IXe CW +25lbs
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Throttle 110%
Rads Auto
Overheat at 1:19
Engine inoperable at 2:29

I-185M-82A
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Rads Closed
Throttle 100% (no 110%)
Forzah (Boost) On
Overheat at 1:31
Engine inoperable at 2:51

Ta152H-1
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Throttle 110%
Rads Auto
MW50 (Boost) On
Overheat at 0:52
Engine damage at 6:50
Engine inoperable at 10:11

I'm seeing a bit of a different picture here. It was the Ta152 that went on and on and on while the Spitfire +25 died after only a couple of minutes. I should mention that this would constitute an extreme example. Full throttle with boost on and using default radiator settings. Twice that was auto and once that was closed. I imagine the I-185 might last a bit longer in this test if I opened the radiators.

EDIT: I also redid the test on the Spitfire (same model)... it was 3:42 seconds before the engine died completely.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Icefire, will check it objectively in a bit. I am not seeing this in combat though. In 4.10.1, the TA was something to be feared, now it is an overheating mess that is good for one pass, maybe two and then you must exit or engine smoke pours out.

Jumowhatever - Not the place to make your inaccurate attacks. If you know anything about me, it is that I ran a full real duel server for 18 months on HL and now run it on Xfire for IL2 1946 (4.10.1), LOMAC FC2 and ROF. Sometimes though bc I live on the West Coast and can only fly at night, there is little to no one in HL (usually about 20 folks), which means the only populated US server is RCAF (which is open pit and filled with 185 M-71s and Spit 25lbs), and the only populated closed pit server is Viril Duel server (Russia) (usually filled with La7s and 185 M-71s with a few Bf 109s thrown in). Check facts before posting hate.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

I just see you complaining, while ignoring the results of others, which are totally contrary to your complaining. In fact, its quite clear, that you are doing something wrong. Maybe you are not even willing to do it right? Thus, as about me, you don't get heard.

[jermin]

Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown).

I can't agree more!

Level flight testing is far from a proper method. You won't fly straight level forever in an air combat, will you? Try turning, climbing, zooming before you compare your test result with real-life data.

Besides, my testing result is similar to WhistlinggDeath's.

I've created a duel quick mission to test the overheating of German fighters and then Allied fighters to do a compare. The mission setup is:

Map: Crimea
Time: 12:00
Player aircraft fuel quantity: 30%
Player aircraft spawning altitude: 1000m
Enemy aircraft: I-185-M71 X 1 with 30% fuel
Enemy aircraft spawning altitude: 1000m

Testing procedures:

Immediately after spawning, I pulled back the throttle and enabled MW50 (or other WEP, if available) and then pushed forward to maximum 110%. The radiator was left to game default. I then did a shallow dive to about 500 meters till I passed the enemy aircraft. Then I started dogfighting with him. I did it mostly in the vertical plane. When I pulled up from the dive, I got the overheating message. It was merely 53 seconds into flight. If I continued dogfighting with full throttle, the engine would be cooked up within 3 minutes. (you can tell it from the oil blotch spilled onto the windscreen and the over-revolution engine sound.)

Then I did another test with 500 km/h level flight with the same power setup. (no enemy aircrafts) The engine was still damaged within 5 minutes.

Historically, MW50 can be used continuously for 10 mins. After that, the engine needs to rest for at least 5 mins before enabling MW50 boost again. But in 4.11, the engine will overheat about 53 seconds after enabling MW50. Well within 3 minutes, the engine will be cooked up.

I also tested P-51D, late-war Fw-190s and Ta-152-H1, Spits and Russian UFOs. I have the same conclusion with WhistlinggDeath:

The new not-so-fair overheating feature in 4.11 has totally shredded the already extremely unbalanced online play into pieces. Leave alone so many unrealistically super uber Western and Russian UFOs.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Wow, this place reminds me of that HL forum.

Caspar - I didnt say I wasnt going to try it. I said I would test it later and I am. Be cool dude and no need for the hate.

Other fliers - The critical difference in 4.11 is not level flight speed , it is time to engine overheat while doing an apex climb.

This is the way Boom and Zoom fighters were designed to work. Period. This is the method of the P51, FW, TA, Tempy, etc.... fully 40% of the planes in the game were designed for. You fly it in level flight and turn horizontally, you usually die. They are designed for the vertical fight, to boom down and zoom right back up using apex climbs that get close to stall speed often when they top out.

They dive and then zoom climb back up (say 2000m in one go from base attack back up close to stalling out).

I can faithfully replicate, putting the TA 152 into a dive with 4.11 and then climb to stall speed (it stalls at about 1870m of climb from whatever altitude you started the climb from, and at about 200 kph), by which time the engine is overheating, IN ONE PASS. Which means about 10 seconds. Apologies to Ice for not being clear about this before but was roughly testing earlier. If I keep this up, the engine is fried by pass 3 or 4. This is directly contrary to all the historical evidence of the late FWs and TAs which where specifically designed for zooming up to the clouds.

THIS STALL CLIMB HEATING IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE OF 4.11 versus 4.10.1. In the older patch, I could get three to five apex climbs before overheat (say roughly 2 to 5 min). Now, in 4.11, I must drop pitch, exit and circle around cooling the engine. That makes my TA or FW or P51 damn near worthless. Why ? Cause I must circle to continually cool the engine and after one steep climb I am back in overheat territory. So I am now left with level flight turning combat and everyone knows how bad the P51 or TA sucks at that against a Spit 25lbs or La7.

As to the level flight data provided by others, still checking. I can see though that the TA has had a significant reduction in abilities (and about 30 kph in level flight speed) from 4.10.1 to 4.11.

Still testing.....

I do not appreciate more gifts being handed to the already underwhelming open pit Spit 25lbs/185/La7 princesses.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Just stop flying with WEP (resp. MW50), auto prop pitch and 110% trottle!!!
No plane/engine was designed to fly at maximum output for 10 minutes!
Whats so hard about that? Every other plane, that you might want to attack with B&Z has the same limits now! Even AI! And BTW: Turn&Burn is much more increasing the temps, as you usually get very slow in turnfights and thus the radiator is not cooling so well. In B&Z you have at least high speeds for at least half of your manuevers.

Differently asked: Why I don't have the problems to fight successfully online and offline?

[WhistlinggDeath]

Caspar, an energy fighter needs every single ounce of boost that it can get most of the time to get up above a spit 25lbs in online combat to secure the potential energy advantage and set up the attack. In a pitched fight between myself and a master spit 25lbs ace, I can in 4.10.1 secure the advantage often, but it takes a long time and very, very.... very careful maneuvering to finally get above them. In 4.11, this is impossible. The spit 25lbs can zoom climb several passes before overheat even becomes a problem while I get one pass and then must exit the field (and this is with both planes on say radiator auto or open and boost, full 110% power). The spit engine can simply out last way, way beyond me, which makes me have only one boom to hit them, and that is if I get to start the fight above them. If even steven co-altitude, I am toast, I must simply pass bye and stay straight, and out gas tank them.

I run a server on Xfire, called WD Fights. It is full real but we (our lab) get some really tough opponents (many from Russia). I would be happy, by switching back and forth to show you this in person (or the top ace of Team D) on my server. I will start with 4.10.1 and then go to 4.11. First I take TA and Team D guy takes spit 25lbs, and then reverse. Then I reset server to 4.11 and we redo the fights. You will notice a MASSIVE change immediately when it is your turn to fly the Ta. You can even tape it for Youtube if you want and bring other Team D members. PM me if interested.

This overheating stuff needs to be fixed and the FW/TA flight models restored to neutrality.

[JimmyBlonde]

4.11 is certainly a gift to opinionated, verbose whiners with nothing to back up their accusations.

[Luno13]

I'm not a good fighter, compared to most online players, but the newest radiator settings are...not that hard to deal with.

If everyone else can do it, even someone like me...well, maybe the problem lies with you?

I really hope you don't call those gentlemen. You will probably give them a heart attack. :rolleyes:

[WhistlinggDeath]

You could be right. I might suck at online dogfighting. Many say that. :)

[jermin]

Just stop flying with WEP (resp. MW50), auto prop pitch and 110% trottle!!!
No plane/engine was designed to fly at maximum output for 10 minutes!
Whats so hard about that? Every other plane, that you might want to attack with B&Z has the same limits now! Even AI! And BTW: Turn&Burn is much more increasing the temps, as you usually get very slow in turnfights and thus the radiator is not cooling so well. In B&Z you have at least high speeds for at least half of your manuevers.

Differently asked: Why I don't have the problems to fight successfully online and offline?
Sorry, Caspar. But I have to disagree with you on this point. MW50 boost WAS supposed to be kept engaged for 10 mins (at most). But go test yourself, engines with MW50 enabled will be damaged well in 5 minutes.

Further more, the real-life test of G10 revealed that it can reach 6000m in 5.8 minutes, but I highly doubt whether you can accomplish this before you cook up the engine in game.

We are not complaining one type of aircraft is not as uber as other aircrafts. We are actually comparing the in-game aircrafts to their real-life counterparts. Isn't this what a flight sim is supposed to do?

To your differently asked question, one possible reason might be that your opponents are not good enough.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Still checking on the various data posted by Ice and others.

Interesting data:

Seems the Ta can be caught now in level flight by the Spit 25lbs when both have rad open and boost 110% on (TA levels at 530/540 kph, Spit 25lbs at 550 kph)

Sorry, what... did I just write that. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

But so far, that is what I get in QMB on the Okinawa map.

Not sure yet, but seems the FW and TA dives are not as fast now (will check code maybe tomorrow).

P51, the monster of WWII that soared at 12000m escorting bombers and dove on opponents at 900 kph, can be caught in level flight by spit 25lbs and several other uber planes (P51 goes about 550/560 on 110% with boost, and Spit can now catch it, as can the well known 185 M-71 (two of these were made in WWII) at 580 kph).

Still testing.....

Who designed this patch anyway ?

[jermin]

Come on, TD. Do you really think an aircraft produced in 1939 (I-153P-M62) is able to give a late-war German piston fighter (Bf-109K-4 C3) a hard time in dogfight?

[Zorin]

Still checking on the various data posted by Ice and others.

Interesting data:

Seems the Ta can be caught now in level flight by the Spit 25lbs when both have rad open and boost 110% on (TA levels at 530/540 kph, Spit 25lbs at 550 kph)

Sorry, what... did I just write that. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

But so far, that is what I get in QMB on the Okinawa map.

Not sure yet, but seems the FW and TA dives are not as fast now (will check code maybe tomorrow).

P51, the monster of WWII that soared at 12000m escorting bombers and dove on opponents at 900 kph, can be caught in level flight by spit 25lbs and several other uber planes (P51 goes about 550/560 on 110% with boost, and Spit can now catch it, as can the well known 185 M-71 (two of these were made in WWII) at 580 kph).

Still testing.....

Who designed this patch anyway ?

Good god... breath.

1. Okinawa is not the map to execute tests on.
2. You give no details on the conditions of your testing, like altitude, fuel lelvels etc. Therefor, they are not valid at all.
3. Learn to fly and accept that planes have optimum fighting altitudes. Your beloved TA-152H has never been a low alt turn fighter, for once.

[JG27_PapaFly]

Our squad did extensive internal matches in 4.11, specifically to get a feeling for the new overheat models + FMs. We did A LOT of spit9/8/9_25lbs vs FW series 2 vs 2 fights, switching planes afterwards.

None of us had the impression that the spits are uber concerning overheating.
To the contrary: being forced to turn hard to evade FW190 gun passes overheats spit engines real fast, while the 190s faired very well, as they kept their speed up. When keeping the spit engine close to overheat and pulling vertical to follow a FW zoom, we usually got the overheat message right away, which meant we could follow FWs during zooms only 1, maximum 2 times. With a hot engine, the spit driver now has to cut back on the throttle a lot, and give up altitude in order to maintain maneuvering speed.

In all game versions prior to 4.10, the spit25 was absolutely ridiculous: the engine got cooler when flying at full boost + WEP at slow speeds! I'm glad those times are gone.

Guys flying high as a team, supporting each other and managing their engines will blast any spit/la/185 out of the sky, and much faster than in previous patches.

WD, if you picture energy fighting as an endless succession of full power vertical climbs, followed by diving attacks, preferrably performed by a lone wolf who tries to dominate a server, it's time to change tactics. Any friggin engine will be cooked if run at full power and very slow speeds, and that is realistic.

All so-called tests presented in this thread so far are invalid. With random effects now being part of the overheat model, you must test each plane at least three times under the same conditions. Preferrably a steady max power climb at slow speed. After that, you calculate the average time to overheat, and then perform student's T-test on the obtained values. Only this or similar statistical tests of significance (like Mann-Whitney's U test) will tell you whether the average time to overheat of 2 planes are significantly different. Everything else is bollocks that wastes people's times.

There is one more point to consider: engine temps at spawn are well below what you can attain as a steady-state temp in-flight. Measuring time to overheat from spawn is not relevant to time to overheat as experienced during fights long after spawning. Plus we don't really know whether all planes spawn with the same oil/coolant/cylinder heat temp on a given map.

S!

[WhistlinggDeath]

Interesting info Papa, but I respectfully disagree. The TA in particular has been toasted and the FWs and Mustangs to a slightly lesser degree. And yes, any team (even relatively untrained members) can use five FWs to bring down one Spit 25lbs. I could use five Japanese float planes to do the same thing too. That is pretty much meaningless. And that is not a true test of metal. What counts is one versus one, same alt, ... no firing on first pass, then the fight is on. Try it and you will clearly see the deterioration of the engine in most BnZ centered planes with 4.11.

I think tomorrow, I am going to release a flight model for the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 that sets specs for it back to the 4.10.1 flight model. I will call this new model TA 4.10.1, but it will be made only for fully patched 4.11 versions of IL2. Then Ulti and I will demonstrate quite clearly for all who enjoy ntrks, just how badly it has been borked in 4.11. Whichever one of us flies the 4.10.1 model will beat the living s%%! out of the other one, and do so easily.

Once we test it and make some laughable NTRKs, we will release it to some select testers.

Another point many of you are not catching is that I (or we, my few buds) are not against overheating models or more realistic engine handling.

WE $%^&$%! LOVE THAT STUFF !

Heck, I wrote a guide about prop pitch at M4T to help out guys who got confused. We welcome more realistic engine flight models. We just dont think it is applied fairly as it stands in 4.11. The BnZ planes took it in the butt, and the TA got double teamed into the toilet, while the Spit 25lbs and 185 are very lightly affected. Also, from what I can read so far (and I have more to learn), the 4.11 TA or FW models arent holding up to the general consensus on real world planes. In real life, I keep seeing a figure of ten minutes for boost with the TA. It was designed to be a diving killer, .. not an overheating Ki-61 turd that exits out of the fight after pass one.

So Papa, do what I did. Take the TA 152 H1, get her up to 1000m in level flight at 530 kph and dont pressure the engine (take a bit to get up to full speed). Then take a small dive to translate a little KE and put on boost and power up to 110% and climb steeply (as if escaping a chasing spit 25lbs). By the time you reach your apex (after about 1870m of climb) and are close to complete stall, your engine will be in serious overheat.

In one pass.

Now try this in ole 4.10.1 and notice the extreme difference. The delta is large in 4.11 for the TA. Very large.

Now try this for say the Spit 25lbs. The difference between 4.11 and 4.10.1 is fairly small. A bit of overheat but nothing really kicks in for quite a bit.

Ponder on it a bit.

[jermin]

Our squad did extensive internal matches in 4.11, specifically to get a feeling for the new overheat models + FMs. We did A LOT of spit9/8/9_25lbs vs FW series 2 vs 2 fights, switching planes afterwards.

None of us had the impression that the spits are uber concerning overheating.
To the contrary: being forced to turn hard to evade FW190 gun passes overheats spit engines real fast, while the 190s faired very well, as they kept their speed up. When keeping the spit engine close to overheat and pulling vertical to follow a FW zoom, we usually got the overheat message right away, which meant we could follow FWs during zooms only 1, maximum 2 times. With a hot engine, the spit driver now has to cut back on the throttle a lot, and give up altitude in order to maintain maneuvering speed.

In all game versions prior to 4.10, the spit25 was absolutely ridiculous: the engine got cooler when flying at full boost + WEP at slow speeds! I'm glad those times are gone.

Guys flying high as a team, supporting each other and managing their engines will blast any spit/la/185 out of the sky, and much faster than in previous patches.

WD, if you picture energy fighting as an endless succession of full power vertical climbs, followed by diving attacks, preferrably performed by a lone wolf who tries to dominate a server, it's time to change tactics. Any friggin engine will be cooked if run at full power and very slow speeds, and that is realistic.

All so-called tests presented in this thread so far are invalid. With random effects now being part of the overheat model, you must test each plane at least three times under the same conditions. Preferrably a steady max power climb at slow speed. After that, you calculate the average time to overheat, and then perform student's T-test on the obtained values. Only this or similar statistical tests of significance (like Mann-Whitney's U test) will tell you whether the average time to overheat of 2 planes are significantly different. Everything else is bollocks that wastes people's times.

There is one more point to consider: engine temps at spawn are well below what you can attain as a steady-state temp in-flight. Measuring time to overheat from spawn is not relevant to time to overheat as experienced during fights long after spawning. Plus we don't really know whether all planes spawn with the same oil/coolant/cylinder heat temp on a given map.

S!

Thanks for your input.

Flying as a team seems like a pro's suggestion. But please find me a decent populated stock 4.11m non-arcade server where teamwork can come into play.

What's more, we are talking about purely aircraft performance here. Please keep tactics and teamwork aside.

Although I haven't pointed out how many times I had run the same test, but since you have taken part in so many internal matches, did you find the randomness feature play a big part in overheating time? Or in other words, should it make such a big difference?

I did agree with you on your last argument though. But don't you think that MW-50 can only be used for 3 minutes before the engine is damaged is a bit too ridiculous?

[WhistlinggDeath]

BTW, for the folks who want to see the differences quite quickly, here is a link to a switcher so you can move between 4.10.1 and 4.11 very fast to test flight models. (hope this is okay here, if not, no bad intentions meant):

http://www.thefoxbats.ch/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=278

Was going to build one myself, but Neuro did it for us.

S! Neuro

[Robo.]

What counts is one versus one, same alt, ... no firing on first pass, then the fight is on. Try it and you will clearly see the deterioration of the engine in most BnZ centered planes with 4.11.

How exactly do you perform this BnZ with BnZ centered plane in a co-alt co-E situation as described (e.g. classic duel)?

Doing usual BnZ a lot, I didn't find anything unusual in 4.11.

[Luno13]

German planes may have had 10 minutes if WM50, but that doesn't mean it HAD to be able to be used continuously throughout that time.

Your average Mustang has ~25 seconds worth of ammo, but if you held the trigger for that long, the guns would be ruined. If gun overheating were modeled, would you complain about that too?

Flying as a team seems like a pro's suggestion. But please find me a decent populated stock 4.11m non-arcade server where teamwork can come into play.

What's more, we are talking about purely aircraft performance here. Please keep tactics and teamwork aside.

I think a certain someone here claimed that actual pilot references would prove his point about certain aircraft.... Actual pilots used tactics and teamwork, which go beyond pure performance. Furthermore, the proportion of trained to untrained pilots in the Luftwaffe lessened with the progression of the war, while allied pilots could train in safety. Many rookies didn't know how to get the best out of their planes, and that shows in reports.

And how many pilots got the chance to sit in a P-51 and then a factory fresh (not sabotaged by groundcrew to prevent capture, with all pilot manuals to prevent breaking the engine in a silly way) Fw-190 to compare? There is more subjectivity to those old accounts than many realize.

Come on, TD. Do you really think an aircraft produced in 1939 (I-153P-M62) is able to give a late-war German piston fighter (Bf-109K-4 C3) a hard time in dogfight?

Hey cheer up! We've all been there, you just need some practice. :-)

So Papa, do what I did. Take the TA 152 H1, get her up to 1000m in level flight at 530 kph and dont pressure the engine (take a bit to get up to full speed). Then take a small dive to translate a little KE and put on boost and power up to 110% and climb steeply (as if escaping a chasing spit 25lbs). By the time you reach your apex (after about 1870m of climb) and are close to complete stall, your engine will be in serious overheat.


You must remember that the Ta-152 was designed and tuned for high altitude work. Down low, that big wing is just slowing it down.

P51, the monster of WWII that soared at 12000m escorting bombers and dove on opponents at 900 kph, can be caught in level flight by spit 25lbs and several other uber planes (P51 goes about 550/560 on 110% with boost, and Spit can now catch it, as can the well known 185 M-71 (two of these were made in WWII) at 580 kph).


Are you just trolling on purpose? 900kph is 560 mph. No piston powered war-plane could reach that in level flight. In totally level flight, the P-51 can reach a higher max speed than the spitfire in just about any regime of flight except at and below 1000m. According to Il-2 compare, the Mustang's TAS can reach 710 kph at 7000m. The spit's theoretical max TAS is 640 kph, at 5000m. At 7000m with the mustang, it starts decreasing, to 630 kph, and drops considerably above that.

Remember that the Mustang has practically the same engine as the Spitfire, but is 1.5 times as heavy. The difference in performance comes about through aerodynamics. That said, it takes a longer time for the Mustang to reach its top speed than the Spit.

Your "tests" prove nothing.

[jermin]

LOL. Seriously, you really thought I need practice? Trust me, I can easily shoot your ass off in a duel. I really don't know why some of you like to treat complainers as noobs, every time.

As for the MW50 usage, I suggest you do some reading before putting up something like that.

[Zorin]

LOL. Seriously, you really thought I need practice? Trust me, I can easily shoot your ass off in a duel. I really don't know why some of you like to treat complainers as noobs, every time.

As for the MW50 usage, I suggest you do some reading before putting up something like that.

Maybe that is because you are one?

MW50 was not meant to allow you to stay longer in a fight, it was meant to allow you to get your ass back home in one piece. It should allow the pilots to get out of a nasty spot in the fastest way, helping to cool/prevent further heating of the engine in level flight or shallow dives/climbes at max rated power.

You really are not able to present yourself in any way as a respectable contributor to the present argument.

[swiss]

Maybe this problem is connected to the new proppitch in 4.11?
If I understand it correctly, high power means low pitch, low power high pitch.
Now, if u dive with auto pp, you will run the engine with too high rpm, which leads to "premature" overheating.

Just a guess, havent tried, I also always flew with manual proppitch before - and only used low pitch in a dive with low power to slow down.

[jermin]

Maybe that is because you are one?

MW50 was not meant to allow you to stay longer in a fight, it was meant to allow you to get your ass back home in one piece. It should allow the pilots to get out of a nasty spot in the fastest way, helping to cool/prevent further heating of the engine in level flight or shallow dives/climbes at max rated power.

You really are not able to present yourself in any way as a respectable contributor to the present argument.
What creative thoughts! You thought those German aces earned that multitude of kills by running home to mama?

No offense. But now I begin to doubt your sanity.

[swiss]

What creative thoughts! You thought those German aces earned that multitude of kills by running home to mama?

No offense. But now I begin to doubt your sanity.

It's not like they singlehandedly attacked a whole fighter wing and shot down most them*.
It was either hit and run, one to one, or the the foxhunt tactics.

* that did happen, but then it was one German state of the art fighter vs many soviet pos planes.

[Zorin]

What creative thoughts! You thought those German aces earned that multitude of kills by running home to mama?

No offense. But now I begin to doubt your sanity.

No, you are of course quite right, they stayed in their fights against multiple opponents until their engines blew up in their faces and out of respect the enemies darted their planes in the ground as a farewell to them while they were gliding back to base.

God, you are so stupid words fail me...

[jermin]

Well, you two said it as if you have been through the war. Can you please provide some proof to support your argument?

[swiss]

zorin or me?
There are tons of yt vids to confirm this.

I think it was a vid of Hartmann(or whoever collided with a la or lagg midair) where he said:
"I used to say to my fellow pilots; many dogs catch the rabbit, hahaha".

[jermin]

Video? LOL

Seriously, how old are you?

[Luno13]

Well, in Il-2 WM 50 works a little differently and is only associated with higher boost settings. Don't expect to be able to run 10 minutes of high boost just because WM 50 is engaged with absolutely zero consequences, especially if you're slow and turning ;)

If you do some reading as well you will find that the max continuous operation time could vary, and be as little as 5 minutes. There was a required "cold-down" period before it could be engaged again. Engines that went to full boost for any practical length of time developed cracks and fouled spark plugs and had to be overhauled. Engines that went to full boost without the WM 50 would have seized within a few minutes.

Anyway, I did a quick run in a Bf-109, and it was a full two minutes before the "Overheat!" message appeared (it is a bit conservative, BTW). A little over 15 minutes later, the fuel ran out (I spawned in the air with 50%). There was no loss of RPM or manifold pressure throughout the time that WM50 was engaged.

So what exactly is the problem again?

[swiss]

Video? LOL

Seriously, how old are you?

Videos, thats the device with which you can record pictures and voice of people, sometimes they call it interview.
Although it might surprise you, some German aces survived the war - and later gave interviews.
You can find those now on yt, as "videos".

[Zorin]

Videos, thats the device with which you can record pictures and voice of people, sometimes they call it interview.
Although it might surprise you, some German aces survived the war - and later gave interviews.
You can find those now on yt, as "videos".

swiss, just ignore him, he isn't worth the bother.

[Jumoschwanz]

Just stop flying with WEP (resp. MW50), auto prop pitch and 110% trottle!!!
No plane/engine was designed to fly at maximum output for 10 minutes!
Differently asked: Why I don't have the problems to fight successfully online and offline?

Caspar is dead right on this. I have been friends with an actual WWII engineer for all my life, Pete. He flew fighters and bombers and was in on the development of the B-17 and B-29 and worked directly for Hap Arnold.
He said that any aircraft that came back to base and had used WEP, as in breaking the wire at the end of the throttle quadrant to get to WEP, that engine in that aircraft was removed from service to be either overhauled, scrapped or used for parts, the aircraft was not sent back into combat with it.

Also I have worked on internal combustion engines my entire life and know a LOT about them. Even now there is no form of racing where engines are run at WOT for more than a minute or two, everyone has to shut down for turns or the end of the drag-strip or Bonneville salt flats. And sixty years later with all our technology, blown engines are common in the highest levels of motorsports.

If you are zooming and booming in an aircraft and want to keep the engine cool and maintain performance, you have to adjust the prop pitch throughout the entire process. When you are diving and the engine rpms go up you have to change pitch to lower rpms, and when you are zooming back up you have to watch rpms and change pitch to increase them and get the best climb. If you keep one prop pitch in a fight that sees your speed changing from 200km/hr through 700+km/hr, then you are either not going to get all the performance you could be, or you will hurt your engine.

WWII pilots had one engine to get them hundreds or thousands of miles to battle and then back home again, how do you think they treated it?

War Emergency Power was just that for emergencies, the last thing to do to save your life and get home, it was not a combat tool but a defensive feature.

Early B-29s blew entire cylinders off their engines right through the cowling on take-off without even going into WEP.

These pilots were very smart and educated individuals that knew everything about the aircraft they were flying. My friend Pete graduated from Yale University for engineering. Dummies did not get to fly fighter aircraft in WWII, and they will not be able to hack flying REALISTIC settings in IL2 Sturmovik, especially as more realistic features are added to it over time.

If you can not handle flying IL2 on hard settings, then you can merely switch them off and fly settings and fly and host servers that match your caliber......:) Or, you can create a mod-pack that changes IL2 into your personal version and interpretation of WWII history such as UP and HSFX......

[jermin]

You say this every time you are out of words?

[jermin]

Well, in Il-2 WM 50 works a little differently and is only associated with higher boost settings. Don't expect to be able to run 10 minutes of high boost just because WM 50 is engaged with absolutely zero consequences, especially if you're slow and turning ;)

If you do some reading as well you will find that the max continuous operation time could vary, and be as little as 5 minutes. There was a required "cold-down" period before it could be engaged again. Engines that went to full boost for any practical length of time developed cracks and fouled spark plugs and had to be overhauled. Engines that went to full boost without the WM 50 would have seized within a few minutes.

Anyway, I did a quick run in a Bf-109, and it was a full two minutes before the "Overheat!" message appeared (it is a bit conservative, BTW). A little over 15 minutes later, the fuel ran out (I spawned in the air with 50%). There was no loss of RPM or manifold pressure throughout the time that WM50 was engaged.

So what exactly is the problem again?

Who said I expected to run MW50 at 110% for ten minutes every time? But if you have ever lasted for 10 mins before the engine dying out in game, please upload the ntrk.

If 10 mins was historically a rare number that is extremely hard to achieve. Why would they include it into the manual? They must have already left some margin here. 10 mins should have been a quite common number during aircraft service that is not so difficult to achieve.

And we would like to see your ntrk for the test fly you described.

[jermin]

Caspar is dead right on this. I have been friends with an actual WWII engineer for all my life, Pete. He flew fighters and bombers and was in on the development of the B-17 and B-29 and worked directly for Hap Arnold.

I highly doubt American aircraft engines operates in the same manner as German ones.

He said that any aircraft that came back to base and had used WEP, as in breaking the wire at the end of the throttle quadrant to get to WEP, that engine in that aircraft was removed from service to be either overhauled, scrapped or used for parts, the aircraft was not sent back into combat with it.

Also I have worked on internal combustion engines my entire life and know a LOT about them. Even now there is no form of racing where engines are run at WOT for more than a minute or two, everyone has to shut down for turns or the end of the drag-strip or Bonneville salt flats. And sixty years later with all our technology, blown engines are common in the highest levels of motorsports.

Engine overhaul is not modeled in the game and will never be. No one will play the game if he needs to wait for a week for another flight. So your argument is pointless here.

If you are zooming and booming in an aircraft and want to keep the engine cool and maintain performance, you have to adjust the prop pitch throughout the entire process. When you are diving and the engine rpms go up you have to change pitch to lower rpms, and when you are zooming back up you have to watch rpms and change pitch to increase them and get the best climb. If you keep one prop pitch in a fight that sees your speed changing from 200km/hr through 700+km/hr, then you are either not going to get all the performance you could be, or you will hurt your engine.

German aircrafts had Kommandogerät equipped, which relieved pilots from the heavy workload of adjusting prop pitch. So your suggestion is useless for German fighters.

WWII pilots had one engine to get them hundreds or thousands of miles to battle and then back home again, how do you think they treated it?

Again, this is within the limitation of computer game. It can not be modeled. The original purpose of IL-2 was to portray the air battle in WW2 as realistically as possible. So your argument is pointless.

War Emergency Power was just that for emergencies, the last thing to do to save your life and get home, it was not a combat tool but a defensive feature.

Early B-29s blew entire cylinders off their engines right through the cowling on take-off without even going into WEP.

These pilots were very smart and educated individuals that knew everything about the aircraft they were flying. My friend Pete graduated from Yale University for engineering. Dummies did not get to fly fighter aircraft in WWII, and they will not be able to hack flying REALISTIC settings in IL2 Sturmovik, especially as more realistic features are added to it over time.
You seem to have a good point here. But enabling WEP won't always save your ass. You will finally have to use it in combat. That's why it's called war emergency power not run-home-to-mama power.

Just consider this scenario. You 4-fighter squad has spotted an enymy aircraft formation and soon they also notice you. You ordered to begin the battle, but it turns out that enemy aircraft are on your six because they have better aircrafts, skills or any other possible reasons. You ordered your teammates to enable MW50 and tried to evade. But desperately found that you are not able to out run them. The only way to survive is to destroy them. Now, tell me whether you will use your WEP for dogfight?

You might not want to use WEP for dogfight, but sometimes you don't have choice.

If you can not handle flying IL2 on hard settings, then you can merely switch them off and fly settings and fly and host servers that match your caliber......:) Or, you can create a mod-pack that changes IL2 into your personal version and interpretation of WWII history such as UP and HSFX......


Again, please stop deeming complainers as noobs. They might actually turn out to be better than you.

[swiss]

Ok just conducted some tests, it IS due to the new proppitch.

If you dive with the ta152 at full throttle and auto-pp you will overrev the engine in no time, it only takes seconds.
It like i said below, high power=lowpitch, independent from what speed you're flying.
Manual pp during dives, on the other hand, keeps you out of troubles.


Not sure if this is correct?

[swiss]

If you can not handle flying IL2 on hard settings, then you can merely switch them off and fly settings and fly and host servers that match your caliber......:) Or, you can create a mod-pack that changes IL2 into your personal version and interpretation of WWII history such as UP and HSFX......

It quite entertaining to hear this from a guy who uploads videos of himself fighting AI aces to youtube.
"Be aware, those are four individual AI, not two teams sticking to each other, so it's much, much harder!"
Roflamo. :rolleyes:

Btw: Why do you call yourself Jumocock? Or is it jumotail?

[Luno13]

Ok just conducted some tests, it IS due to the new proppitch.

If you dive with the ta152 at full throttle and auto-pp you will overrev the engine in no time, it only takes seconds.
It like i said below, high power=lowpitch, independent from what speed you're flying.
Manual pp during dives, on the other hand, keeps you out of troubles.


Not sure if this is correct?

With auto-prop-pitch planes, simply reduce the throttle in a dive. This lowers p-pitch and manifold pressure together. You really shouldn't have MP settings exceeding PP settings anyway.

@ Jermin - I can record a track later today.

[T}{OR]

By looking at these kind of threads I can come to only one conclusion: this game needs some kind of brand new cheat protection.

Especially with all the self proclaimed "experts" in engineering and WWII history we have here.

[swiss]

With auto-prop-pitch planes, simply reduce the throttle in a dive. This lowers p-pitch and manifold pressure together. You really shouldn't have MP settings exceeding PP settings anyway.


I'm not complaining, like I said before I usually fly manual PP, sometimes even the 109. And no, I dont burn my engines, neither in 4.11 nor before.

The question is: Is it a bug or a feature?

[Fenrir]

By looking at these kind of threads I can come to only one conclusion: this game needs some kind of brand new cheat protection.

Especially with all the self proclaimed "experts" in engineering and WWII history we have here.

+1 x 10¹º

[KG26_Alpha]

All the information is on page one of this thread regarding the new flying techniques needed, including the v4.11 manual excerpt in my post.

Thanks to all of those trying to educate and explain to the rest.




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