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View Full Version : Increase /Decrease keys for radiator - Request for 4.11.1 or 4.12


Syrius
01-18-2012, 06:51 PM
4.11 has introduced a much welcome (IMO) improvement to engine management, with better modelling of engine overheat that requires more detailed adjustments of rpm, radiator, throttle and mixture. As currently implemented, radiator opening is controlled by a single key binding ("Cowl or Armor Flaps" in the controls screen) that keeps increasing radiator setting by 2 notches up to 'Open' and then cycles over to 'Closed' and so on. Because we now need to adjust radiator more often and more precisely, it would be helpful to have two incremental keys available for radiator status: 'increase' and 'decrease', similar to what is available for prop pitch, mixture and throttle. 'Increase radiator opening', for instance, would add a notch to the current setting and would stop at the open setting without cycling over; 'decrease' would work the other way round and stop at closed setting. This would help operating the radiator more quickly and predictably, without risking that one extra keypress will close the radiator when we want to set it open.

I'm aware that radiator can be assigned to a joystick axis, but I simply don't have any additional axes available after assigning the ones on my HOTAS throttle to trim controls and prop pitch, and I'm guessing this will also happen to most users. Would it be possible to add those incremental key bindings for radiator in 4.11.1 or 4.12?

Thanks Team Daidalos for all your work.
Cheers,
S.

Snake
01-18-2012, 07:41 PM
I think, in Hotas controls, you can assign an axis to Radiator so in this way you can obtain values from 0% to 100%.
P.S.
So you know about axis asigning. Sorry for my useless post.

WTE_Galway
01-19-2012, 12:42 AM
+1 on this feature.

On many planes the radiator is the only remaining reason to leave the HUD turned on. Everything else can be worked out from cockpit view.

Mabroc
01-19-2012, 03:15 AM
Yes, you can use a "wheel" control or slider in a HOTAS setup to get full control of the radiator, it was just recently implemented on the 4.10 patch. Before that I was using the single key method....and yes, is really annoying

Blackjack
01-19-2012, 04:50 PM
I myself use an axis , but I understand the need for increase decrease via key , maybe support controls like the prop pitch , so for every 10% step 0-100% AND increase / deacrese keys?

At least that would make the control scheme more consistent


-my humble 2 € cent

Artist
01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
I use Autohotkey (http://www.autohotkey.com/) for all key-mappings and I solved that for myself in the following way:

In IL-2 I mapped the 'r' to the radiator, so pressing 'r' repeatedly will cycle radiator through 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 0...

In Autohotkey I defined the following two functions:MapCommand_RadiatorOpen:
Send r
return
MapCommand_RadiatorClose:
Send rrrrr
return
and map two keys or buttons to them respectively:
Hotkey, %iIdSelfMade1%Joy32, MapCommand_RadiatorOpen, On
Hotkey, %iIdSelfMade1%Joy17, MapCommand_RadiatorClose, On

Now one key/botton will open the radiator by one step and the other will close the radiator by one step.

Not perfect, but useful.

Artist

Syrius
01-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Hi Artist,

I'm using the X52Pro HOTAS, and the Saitek profile software allows quite complex programming of macros for the joystick/HOTAS buttons; I use those macros for other functions, like continuous zoom in/out and others. I also tried to use a macro for the radiator settings long time ago, but there is a particular problem with the radiator control for different planes. A few plane types, like the the late Spitfires, simply don't have manual control of radiator, the radiator is always automatic in these planes, so they are of no concern here. But most aicraft types fall in one of the following two categories:

- Planes with automatic radiator setting: the radiator key (I use 'R' as well) cycles through
Closed/Auto (default position at start) -> Closed -> 2 -> 4 -> 6 -> 8 -> Open -> Closed/Auto, etc. That makes 7 different positions and then repeat.

- Planes with no automatic radiator setting: the radiator key cycles through
Closed (default position at start) -> 2 -> 4 -> 6 -> 8 -> Open -> Closed, etc. That makes 6 different positions and then repeat.

In other words, Closed/Auto is an additional position that only some planes have. One group of planes have an even number of radiator steps, the other has an odd number of steps. Some aircraft types (for instance Fw190, Yak and possibly others) go from one group to the other as they evolve throughout the years and models. As an example, the macro for 'RadiatorClose' you showed in your post, with 5 key presses of 'R', will work as intended in the FW190-A types (no Auto/Close setting), but won't work well in the FW190-D9 which does have an Auto/Close setting. Same thing happens when going from an early Yak to the Yak3P or when switching from P51 (has auto) to a Zero (no auto) in the next sortie or mission and then to a Bf109 (has auto) in the next. One macro does not rule them all! :)

Of course, one could use two different macros for decreasing radiator setting in planes with/without auto radiator, but that would still make things complicated. If it is at all possible (programming-wise) for the developers to add the two incremental keys as explained in the first post, that would be a much simpler solution that would work in all cases.

Cheers,
S.


I use Autohotkey (http://www.autohotkey.com/) for all key-mappings and I solved that for myself in the following way:

In IL-2 I mapped the 'r' to the radiator, so pressing 'r' repeatedly will cycle radiator through 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 0...

In Autohotkey I defined the following two functions:MapCommand_RadiatorOpen:
Send r
return
MapCommand_RadiatorClose:
Send rrrrr
return
and map two keys or buttons to them respectively:
Hotkey, %iIdSelfMade1%Joy32, MapCommand_RadiatorOpen, On
Hotkey, %iIdSelfMade1%Joy17, MapCommand_RadiatorClose, On

Now one key/botton will open the radiator by one step and the other will close the radiator by one step.

Not perfect, but useful.

Artist

Artist
01-19-2012, 08:57 PM
Hi Syrius,

a particular problem with the radiator control for different planes.you're quite right: that's one of the reasons I concluded my post with "Not perfect, but useful." Naturally a solution by TD would be the optimum, I agree. My proposition was more of a "in the mean time" type :grin:

And "in this mean time" I use different Autohotkey-files for different planes. ;)

Cheers,
Artist

TheGrunch
01-20-2012, 11:07 PM
I would appreciate this too as I'd love to use the throttle mousewheel on my X-52 for radiator settings.

WTE_Galway
01-21-2012, 07:17 AM
The axis mapping is a great improvement but not everyone has a spare control axis.


The current problem is this ...

Very few aircraft have a visual indication of radiator settings. yes, the Hurri does on the floor and in early 109s you can look at the wing and see the radiator opening and closing - but most IL2 aircraft provide no way of telling radiator position from the cockpit just by looking.

Hence if you are limited to keyboard controls only for the radiator and turn HUD messages off you have no way from cockpit view to tell the current radiator position once you forget what you last set it to.

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
01-21-2012, 08:34 AM
The wish for +/- keys for radiators is acknowlegded. Personally I would find such step just logical in face of the latest radiator changings.

EAF331 Starfire
01-21-2012, 11:30 PM
I think, in Hotas controls, you can assign an axis to Radiator so in this way you can obtain values from 0% to 100%.
P.S.
So you know about axis asigning. Sorry for my useless post.

The main problem is that we only have 8 axis available in DirectX.

The Joystick takes 2.
My throttle are dual, so it takes another 2.
My Pedal takes 1.
My pedal breakes could use 2 if I had axes in surplus.
Pitch takes 1 for each engine (I got dual throttle) =2
So 2 for each radiator would be nice.

I have written a request at Microsofts developer forum but never got an answer *sigh*

Pfeil
01-22-2012, 12:09 AM
As far as I know, the DirectX limit is per device. And IL2 already supports multiple(4 IIRC) controllers.

If this is correct, it shouldn't be a problem unless you have single controller with more than 8 axis.

jameson
01-22-2012, 02:56 AM
The axis mapping is a great improvement but not everyone has a spare control axis.


The current problem is this ...

Very few aircraft have a visual indication of radiator settings. yes, the Hurri does on the floor and in early 109s you can look at the wing and see the radiator opening and closing - but most IL2 aircraft provide no way of telling radiator position from the cockpit just by looking.

Hence if you are limited to keyboard controls only for the radiator and turn HUD messages off you have no way from cockpit view to tell the current radiator position once you forget what you last set it to.

You could use the temperature guage, if you're not looking at it, why would you want to change the radiator position?

WTE_Galway
01-22-2012, 09:29 PM
You could use the temperature guage, if you're not looking at it, why would you want to change the radiator position?

It would be simpler (and historically more accurate) to just know your radiator is fully open rather than fly around watching the gauge trying to work out what it is set too.

Artist
01-22-2012, 09:50 PM
Starfire,

The main problem is that we only have 8 axis available in DirectX.Pfeil is correct:As far as I know, the DirectX limit is per device. And IL2 already supports multiple(4 IIRC) controllers.

- 32 Buttons and 8 Axes per device in DirectX
- IL-2 recognizes 4, but only the first 4 devices

For the buttons of further devices use Autohotkey (http://www.autohotkey.com/), for the axes use my YaDeLi (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18781&highlight=YaDeLi)

Artist

jameson
01-23-2012, 01:08 AM
It would be simpler (and historically more accurate) to just know your radiator is fully open rather than fly around watching the gauge trying to work out what it is set too.

WTE not having a pop at you btw! It seems that the solution to this problem is for the lever, or whatever's responsible, to be animated in the cockpit, (Open or Closed, kind of thing). This would then permit 'flying by the book', and implementing the +/- keys for control would then be logical and whether the rad is open or shut would be apparent. But it would be some work, given the number of aircraft in the game, for TD to do this. Although the bonus of flying with increased historical accuracy, might tempt them to make the effort. Allied pilots might not appreciate the added workload though!
Are there penalties in game from flying around with rads open aside from drag, like having water and oil too cold fed into a hot engine? The reverse of overheating? I have no idea.

Jumoschwanz
01-23-2012, 01:48 AM
Any bell or whistle that adds to realism is always welcome and applauded.

I never use intermediate radiator settings in fighters though. I am either cruising along with the radiator closed trying to save fuel while on patrol to or from a target or the front, or I have it wide open and am fighting or climbing to the altitude I want to cruise at, so the lack of radiator control never was an issue for me.

Didn't some famous fighter pilot talk about how his missions were long hours of tedium interrupted by second of terror and adrenaline? It is the same for my engine....

Luno13
01-23-2012, 02:35 AM
+1 on this feature.

On many planes the radiator is the only remaining reason to leave the HUD turned on. Everything else can be worked out from cockpit view.

Don't forget bombsights, radio frequencies, repeater compass settings, German electric fuses, and throttle control etc. for those using the mouse-wheel ;)

(Once again, I go off on the request for a customizable HUD).

WTE_Galway
01-23-2012, 03:13 AM
Are there penalties in game from flying around with rads open aside from drag, like having water and oil too cold fed into a hot engine? The reverse of overheating? I have no idea.

Historically it was forbidden to use take-off power in many aircraft until the oil had reached operating temp. (One nice touch in the Lagg 3 is the engine temp warning light is lit on start-up and stays on until the engine reaches operating temperature)

Over-cooling was a common problem at altitude. Both the p47 and the p38 suffered mechanical failures related to over-cooling. I suspect it was a key factor in the p38 being withdrawn from European operations (the story about lack of cockpit heating giving the pilots cold toes is just silly). The LA5F also had over-cooling issues at one stage.

Note that it is quite possible for the same aircraft to suffer overheat problems under climb at sea level and then have over-cooling issues at altitude.

However I do not think over-cooling is modeled in game.

One issue that actually is modeled in game is the effect on low speed handling of some radiator cowls. A good example in game is the Lagg 3 once again, which wallows about like a pregnant hippo with the rad open at slow speed.

Luno13
01-23-2012, 03:52 AM
It may be worth mentioning that sudden reductions in power could cause shock-cooling, and cracks in the cylinders.

Also, one could destroy his engine in a heartbeat if RPMs were set too low while manifold was too high. For this reason some planes had a stopper to prevent the throttle from moving past the RPM lever.

Blackjack
01-23-2012, 12:40 PM
However I do not think over-cooling is modeled in game.


Some many versions of il2 ago I dimly remember reading that restarting the engine could be impossible if the engine was undercooled, but if it was implemented as probability or otherwise I dont remember (and never really tested it).

Is it even possible to start a seized/damaged engine in game if it went out ?
Was it historically possible that a engine gave out and could be restarted ? (Or turn of because of fire, then on again)
In case of fire we have the "ethernal flame" modelling , after dropping speed it will burn 100% again even if turned off, so no point in turning it off and not going 100% power to get to safety and bail out :confused:

jameson
01-23-2012, 05:08 PM
It should not be possible for the engine, or rather the prop, to stop as it does ingame unless something prevents the crankshaft from turning. The prop should windmill, possibly not losing any revs either. If you still had fuel and a spark then the engine should restart if the mixture was near enough correct. Shame overcooling's not modelled, gets my vote TD if to add it. Someone will though have to make some training or info missions, for the benefit of anyone who doesn't know or understand what's going on, i.e. some poor soul who is new to IL2.

Bolelas
01-23-2012, 07:15 PM
In twin engine aircraft its impossible to have to separate radiator settings, eg: left engide is damaged and is overheating, so, i select engine1, open full radiator( no mather if by axis or by keys) and right engine is runing ok, so i can let him with radiator closed, but as soon as i select both engines,(to throttle or prop pitch both, the radiator goes the same (in this case they open both, as was my last choice in the comand) It would be great 2 radiator axis, or one maner to keep them different if we want to. Thanks.