Breda SAFAT 12,7mm guns - A real life account of their real power

[Rickusty]

Hi all,

I also wrote earlier a thread on the UBI forum, but perhaps this would be a better place to post it...

The problem of the Italian Breda SAFAT 12,7mm heavy machineguns in the game has been discussed already in the past.

But I still think these guns are not that well represented in the game, power-wise, ROF-wise etc .

Here is an account written by a British pilot based in Malta, that describes the effect of these guns on his plane. It's interesting to read what the (famous but underrated) HE esplosive round was capable of doing in real life.
So many people still think these rounds were "useless" or just "tore fabric or metal skins off".

The action describes one of the first actions of the Macchi C.202s over Malta.
The aerial combat took place on the 22th of October 1941.
One of the Hurricanes was shot down, another one landed heavily damaged withouth Italian losses.

Many thanks to Mapalm that shared this account in the 150GCT forums. This is their link http://www.150gct.it

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http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8834/mikabba1941a1rp5.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6743/file0034grande.jpg

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The amount of damages for a 12,7mm gun is impressive.
One of the bullets almost ripped open a main wing spar and created a hole of about 30 cm. (!)

I still "feel" that the guns in the game are somehow too weak and really inefficients.
Also, the synchronized ROF was around 575. (I reckon we have it at 525)
BTW, the guns didn't always fire at that rate, but that depended by the engine's RPMs, and it isn't possible to create that with the current game engine.

Also, incendiary bullets are not modeled at all, while in fact one of the combination used in the belting was API-APIT-HET.

Some Weapon Mods do exist and they give these guns more realistic datas for bullets, muzzle velocity, ROF etc, and playing with those is totally different.

But perhaps an official change could come in the final 4.09 patch? I really hope so, even considering the fact that it took some of the modders about 5 minutes or less to change their parameters.

What do you guys think?


Cheers

Rick

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8414/macchi202dmetagrandezzafr9.jpg

[uf_josse]

Have just to agree about porked Bredas......

[PBNA-Boosher]

I'm not so sure. I've been able to get satisfactory kills with them. They're by no means 20mm cannons, but as long as you're up close (within 100m) then they do the trick just fine.

[Monguse]

Agreed, the Bredas as well as other guns are not properly belted.

I for one would welcome the proper belting and hitting power for all munitions before the end of the IL2 Series (4.09). That way no matter how the sim progresses, we have the original authority in control of the munitions.

It is my sincere request 1c make the appropriate changes.

50's API thread
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

[IvanK]

So far a lot of subjective comment ref the Breda 12.7mm in game. A browse through this web site might add some real data to the debate:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html

Also in the jpg below from Flying Guns of WWII (Pg 331) by the same authors*whose web site I refer above. The Gun Power column is perhaps the most relevant in this debate. Of all the 12.7mm guns in this table the Breda has the lowest gun Power. In relative terms thats what we see in game imo.

*Anthony G Williams & Dr Emmanuel Gustin , arguably the subject matter experts in this field.

[Snuff_Pidgeon]

OK i took this from my last thread on Bredas.The type of H.E used on the breda 12.7 ammo is PETN!(pentaerythritol tetranitrate, also known as pentrite, or rarely and primarily in German as nitropenta) is one of the most powerful high explosives known, with a relative effectiveness factor (R.E. factor) of 1.66. It is more sensitive to shock or friction than TNT or tetryl, and it is never used alone as a booster. It is primarily used in booster and bursting charges of small caliber ammunition, in upper charges of detonators in some land mines and shells, and as the explosive core of detonation cord. (source wikipedia)

[6S.Maraz]

Many thanks to Maraz and Mapalm of the 150GCT that shared this account in the 150GCT forums.


Just a minor clarification, I am not a member of 150GCT (my squadron is 6S, I just updated my sig) but just a registered member of their forum, and I was not the one who made available the interesting reference about Bredas.

Apart from that I totally agree with your post.

Currently the 12.7mm Bredas in game have about the same firepower of a 7.7 mm gun.

Cheers
Maraz

[Rickusty]

Hi Maraz, changed that. Thank you for the clarification.

Monguse, I'm with you, maybe just a change in the belt compositions of these weapons could be somehow sufficient.

Cheers,
Rick

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

I still feel the Italian .50 cal is the most undermodeled round in the game. If anything it should at the least be as effective as the US or Russian equivalent.

S!

[IvanK]

I still feel the Italian .50 cal is the most undermodeled round in the game. If anything it should at the least be as effective as the US or Russian equivalent.

S!

With respect no it shouldnt. The Russian Berrzin 12.7mm was perhaps the best 12.7mm Gun made and deployed in WWII. Have a look at the chart in my previous post and compare the Gun power column. 12.7UB gun power of 78, M2... 58 whilst the SAFAT comes in at 36. (though the 12.7Ub value is for a sync installtion)

This is a relative index comparing the total gun system ammo the lot. Sure an invidual round might have some cosmic HE compound in it but that needs to be seen in terms of rate of fire,Impact velocity etc. The Gun power index does that. Again if you research the book and or website you will see the data indicates the Breda SAFAT 12.7mm to be a realtively underpowered gun/ammo combination.

What we see in IL2 (imo) is at least in relative terms borne out by the available data.

[uf_josse]

What we see in IL2 (imo) is at least in relative terms borne out by the available data.

No, far of that..... ;) clearly underpowered... (i have in game datas....)

[IvanK]

So exactly what in game data do you have ?

How about showing it here to support your argument :)

Say for the M2, 12.7UB and the breda SAFAT. Then we have something we can get our teeth into and compare to authoritative sources.

[SlipBall]

No, far of that..... ;) clearly underpowered... (i have in game datas....)




I would like very much to see some of your findings, and comparative's to rl data

[uf_josse]

Beliveve me or not, but i think not the right place to expose code of the game....

But, belting is AP /HET (with explosion radius of 4 cm, instead 15 for the US m.2 with similar power) and APT

No API, no APIT.... era pictures show clearly API and APIT in belt with a more probable belting with API/APIT/HET.... (what i have done).

So, clealy undermodeled..... they are now more efficients, but less than M2 or Berezin.

BTW, for IAR 81a, we have standardard 303 and MG131, for A6M5 MG-FF and MG131, US M2 at 900 rpm for KI43-II and so on....

DOn't speak about HO103, Hispano and so on :rolleyes:

[150GCT_Veltro]

It's still very impegnative but now with @@@@@@@@ SAFAT, we can finally fly the maccaroni (C-200 first of all) in the russian front. Not bad after more than 6 years of prayers. Personally i've added some more italian Squadriglia for the Russian front. I've spent 5 minutes of my time to do it......."copy and paste", very impegnative.

Thank a lot mate! LaGG-3 and Rata now can be shoot down.

After CSIR @@@ i'm working on ANR @@@ (also with brasilian "Senta a Pua!"), and it would be nice have also a @@@@@@@@ version of 0.50 for private game. In the next future i really hope to play another "megamission" with our american friends in the Air War Italy 1943 - 1944, to repeat the fantastic online experience we did some times ago.....but this time with @@@@@@@ B-24 instead of B-25. No Learche and UFO of course.

But please don't forget: "Sorry no time, you're wrong!".

Macchi C-202 SAFAT 12,7

http://www.150gct.it/users/150GCT_Veltro/Fotogrammi_nastri_Pagina_1.jpg

http://www.150gct.it/users/150GCT_Veltro/Fotogrammi_nastri_Pagina_2.jpg

http://www.150gct.it/users/150GCT_Veltro/Fotogrammi_nastri_Pagina_3.jpg

[Monguse]

Ciao Velto!

I agree 100% with what has been said. Also, the next megamission WILL BE phenominal!

[150GCT_Veltro]

We'll do it Monguse....we'll do it!

[6S.Maraz]

What about a new megamission... over Malta ?? 8)

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

With respect no it shouldnt. The Russian Berrzin 12.7mm was perhaps the best 12.7mm Gun made and deployed in WWII. Have a look at the chart in my previous post and compare the Gun power column. 12.7UB gun power of 78, M2... 58 whilst the SAFAT comes in at 36. (though the 12.7Ub value is for a sync installtion)

This is a relative index comparing the total gun system ammo the lot. Sure an invidual round might have some cosmic HE compound in it but that needs to be seen in terms of rate of fire,Impact velocity etc. The Gun power index does that. Again if you research the book and or website you will see the data indicates the Breda SAFAT 12.7mm to be a realtively underpowered gun/ammo combination.

What we see in IL2 (imo) is at least in relative terms borne out by the available data.

I did not know that! Thanks for the information.

S~

[Rickusty]

Bump...

Let's hope some modifications will be made in the upcoming 4.09... It will be a work of just some minutes.

[Rickusty]

shameless bump...

[Monguse]

Agreed, waiting for the API belting and data to get fixed.

[Rickusty]

Let's hope Monguse...

Something new to add though: a very recent discovery made by Italian experts (engineers and historians) , with original Regia Aeronautica documents and even studying an original Synchronization unit, found out that the synchronized rate of fire of the Breda Safat 12,7mm guns was very high... In fact , depending on the engine RPMs, the ROF varied from 550 to 700 rpm in the DB601 engined Italian fighters (Macchi C.202 and Reggiane Re.2001) and from about 500 to 700 in the radial engine fighters as the C.200, Fiat G.50 and Cr.42 fighters...

So , in theory,we should see an avarage ROF of 625 rds/min for the C.202 and about 600 rds/min for the Fiat A.74 engined fighters (in game ,we have a ROF of 525 for these guns ... :| ) Just to let people understand how the reality was different from the guns modeled in the game...

Add to that the non-included incendiary ammos, and off-values datas for the individual bullet types, and you have what we can see in the game...

After many years of misconceptions and errors, we are probably close to what "it was" in reality, and why in fact Italian pilots never had something to say about those guns in general, apart from being only 2 (and instead considered them very effective against fighters and light bombers).

Hopefully, this recent study will be published shortly.

Rick

[6S.Maraz]

I have no hope that this can be fixed for IL-2, but I hope that in BoB the Italian fighters will have the correct weapons, at last.

Maraz

[JG53Frankyboy]

I have no hope that this can be fixed for IL-2, but I hope that in BoB the Italian fighters will have the correct weapons, at last.

Maraz

i have sometimes read that the CR.42 of the CAI had one of its 12,7mm SAFATs replaced with a 7,7 mm SAFAT to save weight . is this correct ?

[6S.Maraz]

i have sometimes read that the CR.42 of the CAI had one of its 12,7mm SAFATs replaced with a 7,7 mm SAFAT to save weight . is this correct ?

Yes it is.

Maraz

[Xiola]

The Italian 50 cal should not be as powerful as the RUssian of US 50 cal.

But I feel it IS underpowered.

Look at the chart whihc was posted earlier in the thread as to how powerful the gun should be.

[IceFire]

Going by the charts it should only be slightly weaker than the Japanese Ho-103 12.7mm machine gun as the specs are similar. The Japanese gun is better but nothing there suggests a significant discrepancy. In-game the Ho-103 is a reasonably effective weapon while the SAFAT is terrible.

[Rickusty]

Another bump... for I think, a rather interesting thread... and still hoping for a 4.09 modification... ;)

Cheers
Rick

[Insuber]

bump

[=815=TooCooL]

IMHO, I wish all small calibers under 20mm have about 30% power up. :grin:
Large calibers.. why not?
That would be simplest way to please most people.
Just a hasty thought so don't take it serious. :cool:

[Insuber]

bump