Any plans to finally get a re-crypting?

[Longroad]

At least for FM and DM.

I sort of miss the good old sim.

If anyone else feels the same way, pls let us know.


Longroad

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

It will always stay an option. But currently we are not planning it, since it doesn't seem necessary to us.

[Storebror]

I'd personally ask myself what for.
Offline it's everyone's own can of beer whether to use modified FM/DM sets or not.
Online if you're afraid to face players using edited FM/DM, just join crt=2 servers. You can be sure that there's no chance for them to join such kind of server.
Cheats like the famous "radar" thing are much more of a concern there.

Best regards - Mike

[jermin]

At least for FM and DM.

I sort of miss the good old sim.

If anyone else feels the same way, pls let us know.


Longroad
+1

[FC99]

I'd personally ask myself what for.
Offline it's everyone's own can of beer whether to use modified FM/DM sets or not.
Online if you're afraid to face players using edited FM/DM, just join crt=2 servers. You can be sure that there's no chance for them to join such kind of server.

CRT=2 is not a protection since the game is hacked. Still, as Caspar said, we don't have the plans to re-encrypt the game again,if community doesn't mind cheaters we don't mind either.

[Storebror]

CRT=2 is not a protection since the game is hacked.
Which has what to do with each other?
I assume you know about crt=2 workflow?

Best regards - Mike

[FC99]

Which has what to do with each other?
I assume you know about crt=2 workflow?

If you know how CRT works than why you are asking the first question?

[CWMV]

...we don't have the plans to re-encrypt the game again,if community doesn't mind cheaters we don't mind either.

And there's the attitude we know and love.
Jesus tap-dancing Christ.

[Feathered_IV]

Don't get too worked up. It was just an off the cuff remark, not scripture. ;)

[CWMV]

I know, but without the use of smiles its impossible to tell for certain, lol!
I'd find it hard to believe that anyone still held that sort of assinine, backward view anymore.

[Storebror]

If you know how CRT works than why you are asking the first question?
One of us obviously just doesn't know what he's talking about :roll:
Consequently, it just doesn't make sense to go on discussing about it.
TD doesn't plan to apply any additional encryption, that's fine, halleluja, happy holidays and bottoms up!

Best regards - Mike

[FC99]

I know, but without the use of smiles its impossible to tell for certain, lol!
I'd find it hard to believe that anyone still held that sort of assinine, backward view anymore.
Do you want the game to be encrypted? I guess not, so what is the problem? If you want to believe that nobody cheats , that's fine with me. But in the end this doesn't change the fact that cheating in hacked game is much easier than in an encrypted game. I demonstrated that to WarClouds server owner Sparx way back in Aug 28, 2007 to be precise.

And history of Il2 tells us that some people and squads did whatever they could to cheat when cheating was much harder than now. You want me to believe that all of them now turned into saints? C'mon, I'm not that naive.

Bottom line is,play whatever you want to play, mod whatever you want to mod and cheat if you want, I don't care. But I would like to know why some people want to maintain the illusion that cheating doesn't exist? That kind of attitude only helps cheaters so it is reasonable to believe that cheaters have the strongest motive to maintain that illusion, isn't it?

[Avimimus]

I'd mainly be worried about the creation of a new schism (as happened in the old AAA days).

As an offliner who likes to customise installs slightly, I'd really appreciate a solution which doesn't force me to run two installs (and prevents me from combining the best features of both).

[Storebror]

cheating in hacked game is much easier than in an encrypted game. I demonstrated that to WarClouds server owner Sparx way back in Aug 28, 2007 to be precise.
Warclouds is a prominent example of crt=0 mod enabled servers. Nobody ever said that it would be hard to "cheat" (whatever you call "cheating") on such kind of servers.
Join me on a crt=2 server, demonstrate the vulnerability there and I'll be your captivated observer. I'd owe you a beer even if you'd succeed on a crt=1 server.

I would like to know why some people want to maintain the illusion that cheating doesn't exist?
Tell us who did.
Quite opposite I tell you again that unless the communication between server and client gets encrypted in an effective way, you won't get rid of users of the famous online "Radar" cheat, no matter what encryption you apply to the game itself.

it is reasonable to believe that cheaters have the strongest motive to maintain that illusion
I don't get what you mean. Please express yourself clearly.

Best regards - Mike

[jermin]

In my opinion, the problem is more than cheating. It's more of the general feeling and quality control of the game. Graphics comes in a second place for a flight sim in my opinion (I think most hardcore IL2 fans agree with me on this).

The modded IL2 can never gave me the feeling of original IL2. If you have flown online in The Greater Green server back in 2005 and spits and 109s since its birth, you'll understand what I mean. As for me, the air combat itself, tactics and teamwork attract me more than graphics.

Second, what TD has said before, mods are made by different modders with different point of view on flight simulation and limited understanding of the game structure under different working environments (monitor color accuracy for example). In a word, the congregated game lacks consistency.

For this reason, I have confidence in the future of IL2 managed by TD.

Finally, I suggest with a win-win solution for the re-crypting of IL2. Mod community can still mod 4.101 (or 4.11) as they like. But starting from 4.12, IL2 will be encrypted to save the dying online community.

[rga]

In my opinion, the problem is more than cheating. It's more of the general feeling and quality control of the game. Graphics comes in a second place for a flight sim in my opinion (I think most hardcore IL2 fans agree with me on this).

The modded IL2 can never gave me the feeling of original IL2. If you have flown online in The Greater Green server back in 2005 and spits and 109s since its birth, you'll understand what I mean. As for me, the air combat itself, tactics and teamwork attract me more than graphics.

Second, what TD has said before, mods are made by different modders with different point of view on flight simulation and limited understanding of the game structure under different working environments (monitor color accuracy for example). In a word, the congregated game lacks consistency.

For this reason, I have confidence in the future of IL2 managed by TD.

Finally, I suggest with a win-win solution for the re-crypting of IL2. Mod community can still mod 4.101 (or 4.11) as they like. But starting from 4.12, IL2 will be encrypted to save the dying online community.

Noone is forced to use mods. They choose it. If mods do not give you the awsome feeling of the "original" IL2, don't use them. Less people are playing online (which is quite far from the truth AFAIK) not because mods make them depressive and commit suicide, but because either 1. they chose to fly modded :cool: or 2. they play some newer games with more graphic candy (I personally spend more time to play Silent Hunter 4 than IL-2). What could bring them back is new features, such as the awsome works TD is doing now, and not re-crypting. Imagine that: your cat is playing outside and you cannot call it back by closing the cage's door :evil:

IMHO, re-crypting the game will do only harm. It forces modders to (illegally) copy TD's works and implement them into their mods. Some works are never smoothly implemented (that's the reason I sometimes play vanilla, since modders had hard time trying to make radio navigation works). Face it: TD will have their hard works copied (or stolen, I dislike this word), and players cannot fly MiG-15 while enjoying the new (hopefully revoluntionary) AI. No, if you ask me, it's a lose-lose situation.

[Maori]

No, if you ask me, it's a lose-lose situation.

Exactly. To divide online and offline communities (where offline communities use mods on top of stock game) against each other is not good for IL2.

I am happy to hear there is no plans for encryption. I am both online and offline player and appreciate whataver is done to enrich this game. Encryption only impoverishes the game. Customization is of great value. As onliner, cheaters are not such big concern to me. Just arrange online games with serious squadrons. and crt=2 is more than enough currently.

So, because it is allegedly easier to cheat on an unencrypted game it means encryption is good? no.

It is easier for certain types of social problems to prosper in democratic countries than in totalitarian ones... does it mean dictatorships are better for us citizens to live in? obviously not. Same goes for cheaters and encryption.

online encryption-ortodoxists live more by fear than by reasons. IL2 as it has been up to now (after being unencrypted and thus customizable) is better than ever. Keep it that way, please, also for DM and FM. Otherwise how do we add completely new planes that require completely new FMs and DMs like the ones made by -for instance- Loku, CsoCso and Japancat (all 3 absolute lovers of this game)?

I do have full faith on TD work too, but unencrypted game is the way to go.

[FC99]

As an offliner who likes to customise installs slightly, I'd really appreciate a solution which doesn't force me to run two installs (and prevents me from combining the best features of both).
It has been said few times in this thread already that there are no plans for re-encrypting the game.


Join me on a crt=2 server, demonstrate the vulnerability there and I'll be your captivated observer. I'd owe you a beer even if you'd succeed on a crt=1 server.
Well, I'll have to agree with you now, one of us doesn't know much about CRT.



Quite opposite I tell you again that unless the communication between server and client gets encrypted in an effective way, you won't get rid of users of the famous online "Radar" cheat, no matter what encryption you apply to the game itself.
Encrypted or not there is always a way for cheating but it is easier to cheat when one important layer of code integrity protection is removed. Do you really believe that CRT can't be bypassed?



That kind of attitude only helps cheaters so it is reasonable to believe that cheaters have the strongest motive to maintain that illusion, isn't it?
I don't get what you mean. Please express yourself clearly.

Let's see if this will work. Imagine that you have two houses,one with lock and one without. Who will tell you that both houses are equally safe? Maybe those who are blind and don't see the difference, maybe those who don't understand the purpose and function of the lock, maybe jokers ? But from all of them thieves have biggest interest in spreading the false information because their gain is the biggest.

Same analogy applies to the game too.

Noone is forced to use mods. They choose it. If mods do not give you the awsome feeling of the "original" IL2, don't use them.
Spot on, people have to make decision and play what is most fun for them. Who says that they have to play Il2 at all.

IMHO, re-crypting the game will do only harm. It forces modders to (illegally) copy TD's works and implement them into their mods.
They are not forced to do that.They choose it :grin: and that's what they do no matter if game is re-encrypted or not.


So, because it is allegedly easier to cheat on an unencrypted game it means encryption is good? no.

I do have full faith on TD work too, but unencrypted game is the way to go.You are not exactly right here, encryption and modding doesn't exclude each other. Preventing cheating is only small part of what encryption does. In Il2 problem with modding is that game was not designed to support it and that's where most of the problems arise.

FC

[Storebror]

Well, I'll have to agree with you now, one of us doesn't know much about CRT.
Sweet, we're turning in circles.
My offer stays valid: Show me how you cheat with your modded game on a crt=1 or crt=2 server and I'll come back here to tell the world you're right.
No need to go on arguing FC, just show it.

Until then, my word stays: If you want to play online and assure that you're not sorrounded by others using mods (i.e. you prefer "vanilla" unmodded IL-2), join crt=2 servers only.

Best regards - Mike

[TheGrunch]

Storebror, I think cheaters unfortunately have more ingenuity than you think. From what I understand, the most widely complained-about cheats nowadays seem to be memory hacks. CRT probably just checks the files in the game folder to make sure they are the same. As an example, do you think CRT can detect someone using San's FOV Changer? It's not a cheat, but it's the same principle. Anyway, why the hell would FC tell you how to cheat on a public forum? It's not information that needs spreading around.

[SAS~Anto]

Hahaha, this thread is hillarious. It is great news that there are no plans for re-encrypting this game but to think that the lack of it is the reason the online community is dying, is complete bulldust.

Il-2 is a 10 year old game. It has done well and despite the best efforts of DT and the modding community, it is eventually going to fade out into a small dedicated community (or in our case, a dozen very tiny communities that support a plethora of incompatible subversions and modpacks)

[Kittle]

Yes, IL2 is a ten year old game. I am of the mind that says, if a game has been going strong for 10 years and only strengthened as time has passed, it will only continue to do so in the future. Flight Sims are not like other game genres, something better doesn't hit the shelves every two months. The players range a very wide age group, people who started flight sims at age 14 will most likely still have an interest at 54. Unless the successor to CloD is as multi cultured in scope as IL246 is today, I will still be flying IL2 for a while after. I really think history will list IL246 as possibly the greatest combat flight sim ever made, but only time will tell. Even allowing for the fact that the political environment in the community would give the folks up in Washington, DC a run for their money, all in all everyone has the same goal in mind, for people to enjoy the game. That right there is what will keep us together!!!

[Aracno]

Edited - doubled post

[Aracno]

I think this thread is useless, we will not encrypt, end of the story.
For sure we dont need an "hight risk of flame thread" like this, i saw too much forum war in the past and too much good modellers/modders stopping work on Il2 for this stupid things.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Well... I for myself like to check occationally, how public oppinions have developed over the time... so threads like this one are still interesting to me (if you can read beside the harsh tones). ;)

[Aracno]

Well... I for myself like to check occationally, how public oppinions have developed over the time... so threads like this one are still interesting to me (if you can read beside the harsh tones). ;)

You know, fire its alive under the harsh, we must hope wind will not come .....

[WTE_Galway]

Well... I for myself like to check occationally, how public oppinions have developed over the time... so threads like this one are still interesting to me (if you can read beside the harsh tones). ;)

To be honest those players like myself that quit online play at least partly because of the hacking (in many cases the player was probably already thinking of quitting for other reasons and hacking was the final straw) are unlikely to come back now even if encrypting was reintroduced.

[Bearcat]

Yes, IL2 is a ten year old game. I am of the mind that says, if a game has been going strong for 10 years and only strengthened as time has passed, it will only continue to do so in the future. Flight Sims are not like other game genres, something better doesn't hit the shelves every two months. The players range a very wide age group, people who started flight sims at age 14 will most likely still have an interest at 54. Unless the successor to CloD is as multi cultured in scope as IL246 is today, I will still be flying IL2 for a while after. I really think history will list IL246 as possibly the greatest combat flight sim ever made, but only time will tell. Even allowing for the fact that the political environment in the community would give the folks up in Washington, DC a run for their money, all in all everyone has the same goal in mind, for people to enjoy the game. That right there is what will keep us together!!!

The best post in this thread.................

[RegRag1977]

Good points Kittle,

I completely agree that IL2 still has a lot of potential, and that it is not nothing given the fact it is more than 10 years old!!!

My question is rather to find a way to help Maddox games and TD to develop the game farther, to sum up i cannot say for the other people, but i for one would gladely give money for each patch developped. (even if all these patches are priceless)




Yes, IL2 is a ten year old game. I am of the mind that says, if a game has been going strong for 10 years and only strengthened as time has passed, it will only continue to do so in the future. Flight Sims are not like other game genres, something better doesn't hit the shelves every two months. The players range a very wide age group, people who started flight sims at age 14 will most likely still have an interest at 54. Unless the successor to CloD is as multi cultured in scope as IL246 is today, I will still be flying IL2 for a while after. I really think history will list IL246 as possibly the greatest combat flight sim ever made, but only time will tell. Even allowing for the fact that the political environment in the community would give the folks up in Washington, DC a run for their money, all in all everyone has the same goal in mind, for people to enjoy the game. That right there is what will keep us together!!!

[mkubani]

In order to avoid any conspiracy theories and speculations surfacing regarding 4.11 patch, the new DT.dll is our technical solution for implementing 6DoF and new AI improvements, it's not used for re-encrypting the game. Period.

[Storebror]

That's good to know, thank you for your statement mkubani.
Now that there have been users who improved AI for modding communities already, I guess that since you don't want to squeeze them out, there'll be a way to get hands on the DT.dll sources?
After all, otherwise anything being done in DT.dll would be out of reach for mods then, which would mean nothing else but the "e" word, and that's something we just ruled out, didn't we?

Best regards - Mike

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

This is in fact not of our concern. The DLL is not encrypted in any way. People in the know will easily access it, if they want to. So do as you please, but don't expect us to help on modding. We have by far enough to do already.

[CWMV]

Ok, gents, please! could we at least let ONE week (actually, preferably more) pass before tearing everything apart? :-\

TD might be generous, but they are still (human) people, and emotions could get touched. Please don't over abuse of what seems a green light from their part.

.....

[Nuke]

Sweet, we're turning in circles.
My offer stays valid: Show me how you cheat with your modded game on a crt=1 or crt=2 server and I'll come back here to tell the world you're right.
No need to go on arguing FC, just show it.


I feel like you are ignoring the fact FC might actually have access to the source code of the game as a TD member...

I do not, but as I understand what CRT protection does is this: when the CRT option is enabled on the server, it will send request(s) to the client (either when joining the server or regularly) to check the 'integrity' of the client game files. This only works if some 'data' files are modified (SFS files holding aircraft and modelling data and logic). The game being hacked means that whatever the server ask, we can lie to it. My client can tell that my files are intact while they are not.

A couple of years back a friend and I were kind of shocked by the news spreading that SFS protection is broken and cheats started to flow online. We wanted to prove it and we created a simple engine hack (with tools found online), which we successfully demonstrated on War Clouds (informed the admin team). The server I believe was running with CRT=1 at the time though.

So I would like to join FC: if you want to believe that CRT=2 can protect you, be my guest...

Nuke

[EAF331 Starfire]

Well... I for myself like to check occationally, how public oppinions have developed over the time... so threads like this one are still interesting to me (if you can read beside the harsh tones). ;)

Ill two cents but you have to sort the meens out yourself since I don't know a what encryption does to the game.

I and my fellow Sqd mates in EAF like to fly Scorched Earth campaign.
(I might be overexplaining this to much. Sorry if I sound condecenting)
This requires us History mod (HSFX), since the database behind the planning website need to 100% combatible with objects in IL-2.

Most of us fly Ultra Packs as well.

We like features that enhances realisme. To most of us the work of Olegs team and Team Daidalos are the soul and groundwork behind all the mods we fly.

We all have the install dance; Some because of their lack of computer skills and some because we have to use non-flying time to keep them flying :evil:

I wishes where horses I would wish for a perfect game where the Sim was updated automatically over the internet and mods was simi-automatically installed, just as it was in the FPS "Joint Operations" by Novalogic.

I would wish for a Sim that had a campaign system like Falcon or Enemy Engage. Grapihs like real life. Full size maps. A campaign system like SEOW.


But I guess I will have more luck by wishing for peace on earth ;)

[swiss]

Finally, I suggest with a win-win solution for the re-crypting of IL2. Mod community can still mod 4.101 (or 4.11) as they like. But starting from 4.12, IL2 will be encrypted to save the dying online community.

Fact is it's the non-mod servers which are dying, not the mod ones.
If you care more about a clean game than beautiful smoke and hi-res cockpits, then fine, fly offline.
Who gives a sh1t about the cheaters out there? They are in the low one digit percentage. If you get killed it's usually because your gunnery or SA sucked once again - happens.
When I was new to the game I've seen cheaters all around me. Now, over a 1000 hrs later I realized it usually was due to my crappy skills - sometimes it turned out the guy with the incredible FM were actually two different planes.
This is game, not online cash poker.


Sweet, we're turning in circles.
My offer stays valid: Show me how you cheat with your modded game on a crt=1 or crt=2 server and I'll come back here to tell the world you're right.
No need to go on arguing FC, just show it.


and another thing. crt=2 is not a panacea. it can be overcomed too. who knows how to do this - rules anywhere. As for me - i'm awaiting BoB, where all engine will be moved to the server side. this will make any cheating impossibile.
http://www.skiesoffire.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1698

This guy got busted because he turned a i-16 into an i-180.
Feel free to PM him.

[Storebror]

The DLL is not encrypted in any way. People in the know will easily access it, if they want to.
I hope you ain't trying to fool people. Getting back c++ code from a gcc compiled DLL is literally impossible. What you get back from disassemblers is plain useless. You can "access" that file as much as you can read tea leaves.
For the time being, the functions inside DT.dll are out of reach for modders, they can't modify what's inside. That's exactly the same result like if the same functions would reside encrypted (read: obfuscated) in java code.
In previous versions of IL-2, all the functionality which has now been sealed in that DLL has been available for modifications to modders, now it isn't anymore.
It's a valid question to ask what the intention of this step has been and what it will lead to for future versions. If it ain't about locking out modders, opening the sources would be the logical step which would take about a minute of the precious time of a TD team member.

we created a simple engine hack (with tools found online), which we successfully demonstrated on War Clouds (informed the admin team). The server I believe was running with CRT=1 at the time though.
War Clouds is a crt=0 server and AFAIK has ever been.

skiesoffire
crt=0 again. No news that there are individuals who just can't hold back cheating on such kind of servers.

Best regards - Mike

[mkubani]

It's a valid question to ask what the intention of this step has been and what it will lead to for future versions. If it ain't about locking out modders, opening the sources would be the logical step which would take about a minute of the precious time of a TD team member.

Storebror, I will repeat myself: the DLL file is there for our technical implementation of AI and 6DoF. This is the only valid answer to you question. And for opening the sources, you well know our legal limitations. Thank you for accepting and respecting this.

BTW, if you constructive feedback regarding these two features (6DoF and AI), there are debugging threads on this forum - please post your suggestions.

[Nuke]

War Clouds is a crt=0 server and AFAIK has ever been.

It must have been CRT=0 or CRT=1 for a long while now, because they allow both modded and stock games (I believe this was a mistake by the way). I am sure there were times when they experimented with CRT=2, but it was abandoned because it:
1. did not help against cheaters
2. it added some overhead (to the server I guess), and caused problems to some people with legit installs.

I am not sure as I haven't flown online for a long time.

[Storebror]

the DLL file is there for our technical implementation of AI and 6DoF. This is the only valid answer to you question. And for opening the sources, you well know our legal limitations.
I'm repeating myself from elsewhere as well:
This answer is for someone who can't distinguish between donkeys and horses.

Let me raise a comparison and please let me take the liberty to invite you to consider this open minded, so maybe you get a clue of what this step of TD means to the modding community.
There's a house.
The house is your's.
In your house there lives a community of people, some of them call themselves "modders", other's don't carry any particular names but just live in there.
None of those people pays for living in there, they all payed for having access granted once, but now they're living in your house for free.
You like that house, you like the community living in there and you constantly try to repair and renew it. You're a little concerned about the community shrinking considerable lately, but you believe in being able to make the house comfortable enough to keep them in there.

Now once a day you consider to replace the entrance door of your house. Nothing special in itself, but the new door only allows you to enter the house when being naked.

Some of the people living in your house just don't care, others do, and particularly the "modders" ask you about why you replaced the door and whether you could grant them clothed access to the house as well.
Now your answer is "that's our door, we did it like that intentionally, like it or don't.".

It's your house, you're perfectly entitled to do with it whatever you want.
Just as a matter of fact, when you force your guests to enter naked, only nudists will remain as guests in the end and for nudists there's another much nicer house being built around the corner which has just been finished and will be polished to perfection soon.

Got it?

Best regards - Mike

[MicroWave]

As much as I love storytelling, I think I should skip the analogies and use direct approach.
Your request to get the source code of DT.dll from Daidalos Team (or any other part of the code, for that matter) is denied.
Reasons are explained above by mkubani.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Hahaha! Whats wrong with nudists?

To pick up your metapher.
The mentioned people never have payed for any access granted - they swelled in, as one little boy unauthorized sneaked in and got hold of the key of the entrance door and shared this key to everyone else. Some people knew, that it was against the law to break into a house and get the key. Nethertheless they ignored this fact and used their own key to go in to settle down, because they always liked to live in such a house, but never had enough skill to build one themself. (later people just didn't know of what the very first boy did and just found the house open to them). Not only did they settle down, no, they changed the rooms to their likings, using weird or nice stuff to fill it, again without asking. But there were still parts in the house, they could not reach.

The owners, as you said, decided to live in the house as before, renewing and repairing it, ignoring the strange, impatiently, anyway mostly nice people. They couldn't just lock the people out again, as most of them just really didn't know, what they were in fact doing wrong - and the owners weren't moneybegging lawers anyway.

Occationally, the owners had to paint a room, which was used by the people. And the people disliked it of course, because it got uncomfortable for them. But they just got around that problem shortly after anyway, were able to paint their room again and all was well. Also the people complained, that the owners didn't want to let them paint all of the house, including the non accessable rooms. The owners tried to explain, that he thought, not all of their paint was a good match for the house and that these were the very private rooms. The people didn't really understand, but couldn't help it.

One day the owners bought a dog (the people had already a few dogs in the house and liked them, but the owners didn't like them as they were wild mixes). They build a new hut for it, right beside their house, including a small door and a lock, so he was save. It was made that way, because it was the best way not to force such a dog to live in the house.

The people recognised, that their key didn't seem to fit well into the lock of the hut and one of them started arguing, what could be inside and demanded an open hut. Why? And what would he want to do with the dog anyway? Petting?
Anyway, the other people didn't care much for long, as they still could live well in the house and do what they wanted to do in their rooms.

End of the story.

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/4/41/Fraggleslookup.jpg

[Storebror]

The mentioned people never have payed for any access granted - they swelled in
You didn't get a single word of the story, sorry.

Your request to get the source code of DT.dll from Daidalos Team (or any other part of the code, for that matter) is denied.
Reasons are explained above by mkubani.
While the reasons aren't, the statement is clear and understood.

Thanks and best regards - Mike

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

You neigher.

@Admins: Thread could be locked now.

[Robo.]

While the reasons aren't, the statement is clear and understood.

Hi Mike,

I would say the reasons are also very clear - the source code is not to be shared with any 3rd party as per legal agreements between DT and 1c.

The DLL has been used to introduce new features like 6DoF and new AI routines and one should not seek any further motives beyond it's existence. You've been told this already and although you don't seem to be convinced, there is nothing much that can be said about that. Following your allegory, I would say that this is not ew door installed on the house, it's rather a new chimney, and the inhabitants (invited or not, naked or not) can use it if they wish. The key still fits the front door. ;)

Regards
Rob

[Storebror]

The bottom line indeed seems to be reached now that we all got it clear, plain and simple that the modding community will not get the required sources in order to further modify the functionalities which now have been shifted into this particular library.

As per legal restrictions, yes, I get that TD has no permission to distribute any sources where 1C is involved. That's sad but it wasn't of any concern as java sources, as long as they ain't obfuscated, can easily be decompiled back into readable and editable format, in contrast to c/c++ sources as we have them in this library.
Now that this library has not been written by 1C but solely by TD (confirm?) and it does not call any particular code back into IL-2 but vice versa, IL-2 just makes use of functions exported by this library, no legal rights of 1C are concerned, it's as much as the distribution of my so called "IL-2 selector" sources are concerned by 1C legal properties.

That's where I say the reasons have not been given, we just got some official version of it. Nevertheless I got the message and I'm confident anyone else got it, too.

Thanks and best regards - Mike

[FC99]

While the reasons aren't, the statement is clear and understood.

Reasons:
1. We could chose between packing parts of new code into separate dll or to repack exe and some of the old dll files. We thought than new dll is cleaner solution. In fact, separate dll makes modding easier so this is certainly not decision that is directed against modders.

2. We can't share source code. We would breach Section 2.2, paragraph (d) of the contract between 1C and DT if we do so. BTW releasing the patches in format that we know is compromised is stretching out the contract already so, again, we are not making decision against modders, just the opposite.

3. None of the old code is packed into DT.dll, only some parts of the code written for 4.11 are in DT.dll (~7% of the new code is in the DT.dll , 93 % of the ne code is in the same old Java classes). We have deleted redundant code from the game but I'm sure that , you, as an excellent coder, understand the reasons for that. Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't use old code if you want or you think that it is better than the code in DT.dll.

I would expect that somebody with your skill level would not have a slightest problem to replace DT.dll functions with different ones, for better or the worse.

4. If you don't like what is inside DT.dll than just replace it with your code, that's what I did with AI. You don't need a source code for that, after all what are you going to do with the code you consider to be bad? Write your own code and use it in the game, can't be easier than that.

OTOH if new code is good that why would you want to change it and if you don't want to change it than you certainly don't need source code.

5. If you think that something is wrong in the game you can report it here on the forum or to daidalos.team@gmail.com . Even better, you can even make your own,better, code and submit it for inclusion into the game. If it is accepted we will gladly thank you and include you into game credits. Again, hardly a thing against the modders.

6. There is nothing in the DT.dll that you can't find on the web, if you have read a single book about AI you will have an idea about AI programming techniques. We didn't invented anything new, we are just applying well known things.

7. Even if I give you the source code for AI it wouldn't mean much if you don't know the background for it, if you don't have hundreds of Excel charts and tables and if you don't have dozen of standalone applications used for AI development.

8. Write your own code.

All the best and have a nice day,

Josip

[MicroWave]

The bottom line indeed seems to be reached now that we all got it clear, plain and simple that the modding community will not get the required sources in order to further modify the functionalities which now have been shifted into this particular library.

Plain and simple, the modding community does NOT require sources in order to modify the game or those particular features. What you're saying is FALSE. Just to clarify for some readers who might be confused by this issue: supplying compiled code (Java or C/C++) with the patch is NOT re-encrypting.
As per legal restrictions, yes, I get that TD has no permission to distribute any sources where 1C is involved. That's sad but it wasn't of any concern as java sources, as long as they ain't obfuscated, can easily be decompiled back into readable and editable format, in contrast to c/c++ sources as we have them in this library.
So it's not enough that owners of intellectual right and copyright are turning a blind eye on modding of parts of the Software which were never meant to be modified? Now modding has to be made easy? You've got to be kidding me. There are loads of games that were successfully modded which had zero (0) lines of code written in Java and without access to the source code.
Do "requirements" of modding community take precedence over what and how we develop our content? What about customers who do not wish to use mods for one reason or another? There was exactly zero (0) effort from DT side to prevent modding in this patch.
What you are asking for is impossible. Not only we are not obliged to grant your request, we are legally bound not to do so.
For completeness sake, we are aware, and I'm sure large portion of modding community is also aware, of the fact that when we introduce changes in the code (be it Java or C/C++ or whatever), certain mods will not work out of the box on top of the latest patch. There is almost nothing we can do about that.
Please note that this does not brake functionality of the mods on top of the previous patch.
And for the record, I and other DT members helped, in this very forum, on several occasions users who had "My QMB got stuck when I hit fly in 4.11" problem. No questions asked.
Now that this library has not been written by 1C but solely by TD (confirm?) and it does not call any particular code back into IL-2 but vice versa, IL-2 just makes use of functions exported by this library, no legal rights of 1C are concerned, it's as much as the distribution of my so called "IL-2 selector" sources are concerned by 1C legal properties.
Check the loading screen and pay attention to the logos on the bottom left. I'm pretty sure none of the entities concerned have waived or transferred their rights regarding the Software in question.

That's where I say the reasons have not been given, we just got some official version of it.
Nevertheless I got the message and I'm confident anyone else got it, too.
Accusing us of lying is just rude, man. I do not want to go there.

Best regards,
MicroWave

[Storebror]

Now that all statements have been given and things have been clarified in depth, did we forget anything?

Best regards - Mike

[Storebror]

Fine, hope you feel better now. Anything else?

Best regards - Mike

[Jumoschwanz]

Well... I for myself like to check occationally, how public oppinions have developed over the time...

I never liked hacks(mods) for IL2. Before they became commonplace and accepted the online servers seemed much nicer and easier places to fly.

Installation and flying IL2 is hard enough for beginners without boggling their minds with who's mods to use and who's server to fly on.

Originally hacks(mods) were never implemented for any good reason, but selfish or immature reasons.

Someone who was not a good pilot and got tired of getting their butt kicked started hacking the sim, or someone who did not think that the official patches of the sim fit their personal wet-dream of how WWII or their favorite aircraft or gun should perform started hacking IL2, or lastly they simply did not have the patience to wait x-months for new toys to play with, it is that simple.

IL2 was created as a labor of love, hacks were created out of much less noble reasons and will always be the dark-side of the community, period.

[fruitbat]

I never liked hacks(mods) for IL2. Before they became commonplace and accepted the online servers seemed much nicer and easier places to fly.

Installation and flying IL2 is hard enough for beginners without boggling their minds with who's mods to use and who's server to fly on.

Originally hacks(mods) were never implemented for any good reason, but selfish or immature reasons.

Someone who was not a good pilot and got tired of getting their butt kicked started hacking the sim, or someone who did not think that the official patches of the sim fit their personal wet-dream of how WWII or their favorite aircraft or gun should perform started hacking IL2, or lastly they simply did not have the patience to wait x-months for new toys to play with, it is that simple.

IL2 was created as a labor of love, hacks were created out of much less noble reasons and will always be the dark-side of the community, period.

So you've said, one million times before.

Repeating something a million times doesn't make it any more true.

Yawn.

[Aracno]

Yes, something has been forgotten - so far everyone has been too polite to point out what an obnoxious pratt you are being.


There is no reason insulting Storebror, he is asking, we are responding.
You are not helping us this way.
Insulting is always wrong, we must respect all.

[Aracno]

Originally hacks(mods) were never implemented for any good reason, but selfish or immature reasons.

Someone who was not a good pilot and got tired of getting their butt kicked started hacking the sim, or someone who did not think that the official patches of the sim fit their personal wet-dream of how WWII or their favorite aircraft or gun should perform started hacking IL2, or lastly they simply did not have the patience to wait x-months for new toys to play with, it is that simple.

IL2 was created as a labor of love, hacks were created out of much less noble reasons and will always be the dark-side of the community, period.

You are talking nonsense.
Try to take a look at the name of the first modders, you will have some surprise ....

[Jumoschwanz]

I never had a problem with hacks and utilities that work with IL2 without compromising it's compatibility or add practical capability. I was pretty clear about what I have a problem with and that is those who thought their aircraft should have more speed etc. and did not have enough patience to wait for it to be done correctly.

The hackers could have worked with Oleg and friends, not splintered the community and helped progress with IL2, but they did not. They created multiple versions of IL2 that are not compatible with the official version nor with each other, and none of which have the quality or stability of the original.

They certainly don't sell it that way to new IL2 enthusiasts though, each of the hackers has done the greatest thing in the world, and much better than the official version if you ask them or those not bright enough to see what was and is going on...

[Asheshouse]

Jumoschwanz -- You are talking nonsense. Most mods are about adding new aircraft, objects, ships, maps and effects. Some of the best of these have even found their way into the official patches. If you personally dislike mods then you don't have to use them.

[mmaruda]

Jumoschwanz -- You are talking nonsense. Most mods are about adding new aircraft, objects, ships, maps and effects. Some of the best of these have even found their way into the official patches. If you personally dislike mods then you don't have to use them.

Simply the best post about mods in IL-2. :grin:

[WTE_Galway]

There is little point restarting all the flame wars over hacking. its all childish ego stuff.


Two things are certain.

ONLINE: The many many people that quit because mods came out will not return now if encryption came back. The entire makeup of the online community has changed with mods. A certain sort of player left, and another new type of player started to join because of the mods. There is no turning back time.

OFFLINE: No one really cares. Yes the online people that also play offline use mods offline ... and yes certain historical simmers have taken advantage of modes to make better historical offline campaigns. However overall most offline players, never use mods, never come onto forums, never download anything, often do not even use official patches and play vanilla 4.07.


It really does not matter whether mods and hacking were a good or bad thing for the game, its too late now and going back is pointless.

[TheGrunch]

Fine, hope you feel better now. Anything else?

Best regards - Mike

I really don't understand why you feel you have also purchased the right to access the source code of the game along with your copy of the game itself, just because it was originally conveniently released in a language which could be decompiled once its data files were decrypted without authorisation. Even if most EULAs aren't worth the hard-drive space they are written onto, there will certainly be a provision in the license for Il-2 which prohibits reverse engineering. Regardless of legality I can't think of any marketplace for software in which users expect to receive the source code for the software for no extra charge. Il-2 was not free open source software when you bought it and it still isn't. You had better get used to that. The fact that DT are not obstructing modders in any way should be enough.

[mmaruda]

Come one people, this is a 10-year-old-game, it does not look good by today's standards, nor is it developed (like official addons and stuff). Why all the hate towards mods? Is it bad someone is working hard to give you additional content for free? Is it bad someone is spends their free time to make the game look better and you don't pay for it?

Let me hit it with another example - you know why a game like Doom made it big? Because of mods! Why can we enjoy Counter-Strike? Because Half-Life was modable, same goes for many other games (Red Orchestra ring a bell?). Modding is a good thing, it helps the old games to stay alive, look up-to-date and more. We wouldn't have games like Team Forthress 2 or various DOTA clones if the original games were unmodable.

While I understand the concerns of people who say modding allows cheats, there is a simple solution - anti-cheat measures! Not locking the games. The whole "officially mods are bad, boo-hoo thing" was done to ensure nobody makes a Battle of Britain mod or Korea, as these were the plans for the next IL-2/Storm of War releases. Now that CloD is out, you can see for yourself where it has lead us.

Another thing on mods/cheating - ever played Gears of War on the 360? There is a powerful weapon there called the Hammerburst. It's a single shot rifle, but if you can press the trigger fast enough it's almost full auto. Now, there are people out there who use modded 360 controllers to shoot very fast, and they own online. Do the players complain to Microsoft to make Razer controllers uncompatible? No! They deal with it, learn to play tactically, be better.

The same goes for flight sims. I don't have TrackIR, and someone who does has an advantage over me. If I fly with a cheap joystick, I will be owned by someone with TM Warthog. It's a similar thing. Anyone complain abuot that? No!

I played many MP games, and there are always people who think, that they got owned because someone is cheating, but it's really hard to determine a cheat. Maybe the guy on Quake Live who beats me every time uses an aimbot, or maybe he just has awesome aim skills? Same goes for flight models. Maybe they are modded, or maybe your flying just sucks.

IL-2 has a large playerbase compared to most sims, and as far as I know most of this playerbase flies offline - for those people, mods are a way of extending their gameplay experience.

All I'm trying to say here, is that if you really think that mods are an online-competitive problem, either play with people you know, or complain about IL-2 having insufficient anti-cheat measures. Opting for a locked game just sets Il-2 back in terms of content and gameplay experience in general. If you don't like the mods, do not use them, but let those who enjoy them, have some fun. Again, if it's an online gameplay concern, just request anti-cheat instead of hating the free "DLC" you get from enthusiasts.

[WTE_Galway]

Come one people, this is a 10-year-old-game, it does not look good by today's standards, nor is it developed (like official addons and stuff). Why all the hate towards mods? Is it bad someone is working hard to give you additional content for free? Is it bad someone is spends their free time to make the game look better and you don't pay for it?

.

You really do not want to restart the whole mod arguments again.

Lets just agree that ...

- mod users think anti-modders are recalcitrant luddite Oleg fanboys stuck in the 1990's who have no idea what a modern game should be like and want to kill off all the great advantages mods bring
- mod haters think modders are childish thrill seeking 1337 gamers wanting a 3D first person shooter wanting to fly f18s in 1943 over the Antarctic against nazi UFO's using the me262 cockpit with no regard for historical accuracy trying to turn a great historical sim into an online cheating points fest


As such the two sides can never agree ... just leave it be.

[AKA_Tenn]

if you want a mod-less game, don't stick with IL-2, start supporting cliffs of dover... this engine, as much stuff as their adding, is already passed its limitations doing things it was never designed to do, and now requires a computer as fast or faster than cliffs of dover requires to do way less both in terms of physics and graphics.

the reason people still play il-2 is because it has such a broad selection, most of which is directly because of modders. or because their computers are as old as the game...

however, 1 bad onion can ruin a whole bag of onions, same goes with modders, you could have 100 modders adding a lot of value to the game that everyone loves, and then one single person ruins the fun for everyone...

so mods are good, if they can be controlled server side... but since flight models are client side i don't see that being an option.

on that note... maybe they could just re-encrypt the flight models, and leave the rest open for whatever, that way if someone wants to add their own content they could, but not mess with the flight models of already existing content... and that would allow servers to have more control too.

[Storebror]

I really don't understand why you feel you have also purchased the right to access the source code of the game along with your copy of the game itself
That's an unfortunate misunderstanding. I didn't say that any modder "purchased the right to access the source code" and never intended to do so.

The fact that DT are not obstructing modders in any way should be enough.
As a matter of fact, one part of the code which has been accessible for modders before (despite any legal claims) isn't anymore now. That much for the reason of asking for source code of that single part. The question has been answered, no need to argue about it anymore.

Best regards - Mike

[Robo.]

(...)nor is it developed (like official addons and stuff).

Just for the record, it is still developed. 'Official addons and stuff' is exactly what you got with 4.11 ;)