How to fly a Spit 1a correctly!?

[Daliaraptor]

So, im flying now for quite few hours. As well in MP.
My problem especially in the ATAG Server, wehre you just can choose the Spit 1 and 1a, ive no chance to get a 109 even close in my gunsight. Even when i attack from above. I have the feeling its like David against Goliath. I doesent bring my Spit faster than 200mph at level flight (without momentum). Climbing as well is very confusing me. With the Spit 2a its the oposite. To easy to catch and chase a 109 and finally shoot down. But im getting frustratet with the 1a. Does i do something wrong? I've tryed a lot but the 1a feels like a Sopwith Camel WW1, without the good glider characteristics:confused: No Power!!!

Has somebody any tipps or is it just like it was, then?
Thanks for Feedbak...

[reflected]

Hi,
The 1a has about the same speed as the 109, at least it had IRL.
I have no such problems online. Always close the radiator until the temps go too high. Trim the aircraft so that you don't need constant stick input. Use 3000 RPM for combat, 2,850 for power climb (I sometimes use it in combat too), 2,600 for normal climbing, and 2,100-2,300 for cruise.
When you maneuver in combat, don't pull the stick all the way, because you'll bleed energy. pull it only just as much as it's needed.

[reflected]

Mind you, the MkIa's radiator seems to be bugged. In single player mode I overheated my engine in about a minute even though I opened it all the way. Works well on the MkII though...

[bw_wolverine]

You shouldn't be able to fly very long in the Spitfire with the radiator closed unless you're at high altitude and low rpm. Otherwise, you should (and will!) overheat rather fast.

[Daliaraptor]

@reflected

Thanks so far!!!
I made a testflight and get more power out of the Spit with more RPM. Ive always thougt that 2850 RPM and more is too high anyway.
But with those RPM i have to open the radiator fully all the time, even then, the engine temperatur is rising slowly to the 100° mark. Especialy in high altitude.
Should i change Mixture and decrease RPM for a while for cool down? When i just decrease the RPM with rich mixture then the engine get struggling below 2600 RPM!

Thanks anyway for support.

[Redroach]

as has been said already, I consider trimming the plane as one of the most important things to do in terms of getting up to speed. I think many people who complain about not being able to catch up to enemy planes don't monitor their side-slip and just trim their rudder in order to fly 'comfortably' straight ahead (supposedly). You don't get up to top speed if you're yawing excessively, flying more 'sideways' than straight ahead. Watch your side slip indicator and center it by applying rudder trim in order to get up to top speed. That may imply that you have to apply more or less constant aileron input at certain throttle/rpm settings(*), but this is the thing to do for top speed. Really, it makes a lot of difference, way more so than closing the rads.

(*) however, most planes are built/set up by design so that the plane is trimmed at full throttle and zero side-slip at a certain 'optimum' prop pitch.

[SEE]

In a word - 'altitude' - wether you are low level furball fan or prefer high alt DF's your Spit1a will always benefit from having that potential energy advantage. I set PP to around 2700 RPM and generally leave it that. In combat open the rad fully.

No point in trying to chase after a BF in the circumstances you describe - it will outpace and outclimb you. Watch the good Spit jockeys around Hawkinge - flying as if they are on some imaginary roller coaster - always trading altitide for speed and vice versa.

[TomcatViP]

Watch the good Spit jockeys around Hawkinge - flying as if they are on some imaginary roller coaster - always trading altitide for speed and vice versa.

The P/W ratio of the Spit looking like highly bugged, it helps a lot ;)

[CaptainDoggles]

So, im flying now for quite few hours. As well in MP.
My problem especially in the ATAG Server, wehre you just can choose the Spit 1 and 1a, ive no chance to get a 109 even close in my gunsight. Even when i attack from above. I have the feeling its like David against Goliath. I doesent bring my Spit faster than 200mph at level flight (without momentum). Climbing as well is very confusing me. With the Spit 2a its the oposite. To easy to catch and chase a 109 and finally shoot down. But im getting frustratet with the 1a. Does i do something wrong? I've tryed a lot but the 1a feels like a Sopwith Camel WW1, without the good glider characteristics:confused: No Power!!!

Has somebody any tipps or is it just like it was, then?
Thanks for Feedbak...

At low altitudes the Bf 109E is faster than the Spitfire Mk1a. At high altitudes (around 5000m / 16000 ft) the spitfire is faster. If a 109 is running from you at low altitude you won't catch him, so your best bet is to start out high and dive down from above.

Wait until you see a furball developing, and then cruise around above it looking for stragglers. When you see a straggler, dive down on top of him and shoot.

[SEE]

The P/W ratio of the Spit looking like highly bugged, it helps a lot ;)

Every opportunity you jump in with a Spit bug innuendo. I guess thats why you tend to mainly use the Hurri Rotol in MP.....which is faster and heavier so I guess power to weight ratio isn't a bug issue with that choice?

[CaptainDoggles]

Every opportunity you jump in with a Spit bug innuendo. I guess thats why you tend to mainly use the Hurri Rotol in MP.....which is faster and heavier so I guess power to weight ratio isn't a bug issue with that choice?

Just ignore him.

[TomcatViP]

Did I say something difficult to understand ? Hevier with same power (approx.) means that it can't rulle in vertical zoom what in game it does with many player using this bug.

If it's not right it's not good for the game. No matter what plane it is. I don't care that it being a spitfire, a Gladiator or a 109. You shld relax and take it more rigorously.

By the way the default hurri is not faster. That's not true. But the boost is bugged what I hve long said.

[reflected]

IF you're right, it should be corrected. Do you have any proof though, or you're just saying all this out of frustration?

[TomcatViP]

Frustration of what ?

Even Wiki give you the right Take of weight of both planes ;)

[41Sqn_Banks]

Frustration of what ?

Even Wiki give you the right Take of weight of both planes ;)

Ok wiki gives a reference value. Know tell us the game value so we can compare it with the reference value to proof that something is bugged.

[TomcatViP]

Just maneuverer in the vertical with a 109 and then you'll see.

But I am sure you know tht alrdy as one of the favorite moves of Spits online is the vertical loop.

[SEE]

Are you saying that a Spit should not be able to vertical loop and roll off the top? This was a stock move that all Spit pilots performed both in training and in combat. The Spit would loop with the gentle stick application and this is well documented. Its great advantage over the BF109 was its maneoverability in climb and turn and this is also well documented.

I don't see what your point is or its relevance to the OP thread other tha if flying a Spit use its advantages against the BF109.

[TomcatViP]

c'mon tht is ridiculous I never said tht.

P/W tht's what is all abt.

I think you guys want your little talk here so I'm out. No point to hve a dicussion that way

[David198502]

At low altitudes the Bf 109E is faster than the Spitfire Mk1a. At high altitudes (around 5000m / 16000 ft) the spitfire is faster. If a 109 is running from you at low altitude you won't catch him, so your best bet is to start out high and dive down from above.

Wait until you see a furball developing, and then cruise around above it looking for stragglers. When you see a straggler, dive down on top of him and shoot.

is that modeled in the game correctly??i mean that the spit gets faster than the 109 up high??cause i have yet to see a spit Ia to outrun me at high altitudes..

[CaptainDoggles]

c'mon tht is ridiculous I never said tht.

P/W tht's what is all abt.

I think you guys want your little talk here so I'm out. No point to hve a dicussion that way

I'll be honest with you: Your posts are so illegible that 50% of the time I have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

[CaptainDoggles]

It's hard to determine if you are using online to judge. I mean do you really fly straight and level to try to outrun someone? I know I try my best to use my faster downward acceleration and higher dive speed to get away when I need to. Maybe you'd need someone who agrees to not shoot you to really determine if the higher speed at altitude is correctly modelled, but I can't say for sure either way with the way we fly.

Hard to say for sure, but I do find that spiral-climbing away from Hurricanes and Spitfires is much more difficult at 6km than it is at 2km.

They certainly climb better up there than they do down low, relative to the 109.

[AKA_Tenn]

if you can get a 109 to stay slow, you will eat it alive with a spit... the spit doesn't lock up nearly as bad at high speeds (500kph+) and turns better at any speed. the only things you can't do with the spit are climb with a 109 and run from it.

but i mostly fly the 109...

the main way to win with a spit is to keep your speed up and when you see the 109 get to the point where he can't disengage, but hasn't started to shoot, do a immelman and turn in a random direction, level out, get your airspeed back, rinse, repeat, you'll keep gaining altitude... but the main thing is not to bleed off all your airspeed, keep a good 200mph... and at the same time he'll be losing energy from constantly diving in on you, getting more impatient, and not getting that airspeed back like you keep doing... and don't ever let him behind u... never haha

here's an immelman
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Immelman.gif/250px-Immelman.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Immelmann_turn.svg/220px-Immelmann_turn.svg.png
but instead , once your plane is pointing streight up and down, roll your plane in a random direction first, then finish the turn.

see... 109's are not as good at turning, most guys like to boom and zoom with them... and the only way to win against that is to equalize yours and his energy... if you have the same amount of energy as him, your plane is better :D

[TomcatViP]

I'll be honest with you: Your posts are so illegible that 50% of the time I have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

Well, the way I hear you barking once in a while after me doesn't sound like you do not read me at all. :rolleyes:

[TomcatViP]

It's hard to determine if you are using online to judge. I mean do you really fly straight and level to try to outrun someone? I know I try my best to use my faster downward acceleration and higher dive speed to get away when I need to. Maybe you'd need someone who agrees to not shoot you to really determine if the higher speed at altitude is correctly modelled, but I can't say for sure either way with the way we fly.

For me it is obvious that above 5Km the Merlin breathe better than the Daimler.

One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds.

[Robo.]

For me it is obvious that above 5Km the Merlin breathe better than the Daimler.

One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds.

The problem is the performance and behaviour of all aircraft at higher altitude is a bit off in game (as for 1.05) - this includes actual engine power modelling and overheating. Both DB and Merlins have got the same problems higher up.

What you suggest is a suicide in a Hurricane, you won't be able to climb up from a 109 if you both happen to be in a co-e engagement. If he's higher than you, you have to work really hard to slow him down and outmaneuver him. Good 109 pilot won't allow that and will keep his advantage and you can play in on time making his shooting difficult and climbing whenever possible. The thing with Hurri is you can't get too fast if you want to keep your maneuvrability advantage. You can't get too slow either because fast 109 will outturn you. If the 109 jockey makes a mistake and bleeds his speed he's dead, if you fly well you'll be on top of him rather soon. Even good 109 pilots can lose their patience and / or get frustrated after few attacks and bleed e slowing down going after you, break and climb.

If you catch a 109 down below you certainly won't try to outclimb it to 20.000ft in order to have a upper hand. You have it already, so jump on it and depending how good he is (you'll see after first few moments, trust me), you either go aggressive or you carefully keep your e-advantage and pick your attacks. If you're good shot and if you fly clean, you will win. If he desengages, let him go, you won't catch him (well you will eventually, but that will be in France, far and low)

And I agree with Doggles, I often struggle to understand what you mean and I don't get all your whining and accusing others of cheating on ATAG either. For sure, I don't agree with your advice regarding flying the Hurricane at all.

Of course, flying high will help, on ATAG, some 13-15.000ft is plenty for RAF.

[Robo.]

Regarding the actual topic, flying the Spitfire Mk.Ia - what has been said is valid for any fighter aicraft - e.g. stay fast, stay high (ideally both), loiter around dogfights and pick the strugglers etc.

The usual mistake you'll see on servers is Spits getting engaged with Bf 109s right after taking off (you got no choice sometimes, I know), but a 109 coming fast on you while you're down and slow is a difficult situation even for experienced pilot. You can turn better, but the 109 won't turn with you - he will zoom in and out, shooting at you in the process and you will be defending yourself hoping for a buddy to come over and help you out. It's so much better to be that buddy ;)

The Spitfire is an excellent plane, it has got wings and it has got guns. You've got your head with brain in it. If you make good use of them three you can be very succesful pilot.

1. Unless you intend to practice defensive maneuvers and breaks, don't fly straight underneath the 109s. There are always some 109s near Hawkinge on ATAG - coming in various alts, make sure you're not below unless you have to. Climb instead and watch out for the enemy.

2. When engaged in a fight, say 109 above dives on you - break hard enough to make his shooting difficult, but keep your speed and gain some height whenever possible. Don't even think about outclimbing him, your plane can't do that. You won't be able to catch him either if he decides to break away. The key is to fly your maneuvers clean and make him bleed his energy trying to attack you, climbing afterwards, ideally rolling into his turn so he can't do a hammerhead on you. You will see if you're gaining, but carefuly with your nose up as if you get too slow trying to get a shot, your Merlin III will cut as your nose drops in a near stall situation and you will lose precious seconds. That's not worth it, if done correctly, you might as well gain some angles depending on the initial energy difference. Obviously, if he comes in with massive E advantage and zooms up 2km above you, you better bugger off. ;) If you feel you can fight him despite his advantage, try doing this, chose trajectory where he won't be able to roll into you and shoot and don't pull more than necessary. It's a thing to master on all the aicraft - keep you energy, fly clean and smooth. Then, eventually he either notices he's sort of co-e with you and disengages, in which case let him and climb away and watch him closely. Or he won't notice the danger until you make some .303 holes in him. Just shot him down. If he hits you though, that's pity because you already made a mistake of being below a 109 and this is just a way to fix that mistake, doesn't work against good 109 pilots. Good news there is not many of them ;)

3. Ideally, you made it to some 11-13k and you see a dogfight, perhaps some RAF chaps chasing a 109. Let them do their job, there is nothing more annoying than some hot shot spoiling your fight when you're behind your target. If you see a pair engaged in a fight in paragraph 2., e.g. a 109 zooming a Spit or a Hurri, it's your turn. Don't go in being another Spit the 109 zooms! Climb and get the bugger when he can't see you. It's all about timing, the Emil yo-yos up and down, slowing down for a hammerhead or immelman - that's when you want to get him. He probably won't see you at all as he's busy not losing the contact underneath him. You can dive on him or even better, make a zoom climb as you got more control that way. Even if he hears you or sees you coming, there is nothing much he can do. Make sure you hit him, the 303 are devastating if used right. Practice your shooting!

3. The 109 pilots sometimes think they can outclimb you. But they can not. If you come from good position, if you can keep your energy and if you fly clean, you'll catch them and let them have it. That is priceless feeling in any aircraft, but slightly more so in a RAF fighter against a 109 because you beat them on their own ground so to speak. ;)

4. If you happen to be in a co-e fight against a 109, what you do all depends on how your oponent handles the plane. You can outturn him (but don't bleed too much speed), he's stronger on the vertical (especially stall fight as your engine will caugh, his won't), fly yo-yos to trade speed for alt and fly better than him. Shoot better than him and you will win. Good 109 pilot won't turn with you and rather decides to extend and come back with advantage. This is rather hypothetical as if you see a Emil turning after you you know he doesn'k know what he's doing and if he keeps doing that you'll be shooting at him after 2 cycles. Still, don't go too horizontal, fly clean lag and pull only as hard as you need to win the fight and keep your speed. Careful with 109s going in fast, they turn better than you for at that speed (theirs is high, yours is low) and certainly can get few 20mm holes in you.

Above applies to Hurricane as well, the difference being mainly maneuvrability, speed and roll rate, but they somehow share the main characteristics regarding basic advantages - disadvantages against a 109.

[ATAG_Snapper]

One of the best posts I've read in this forum. Kudos, Robo!

[TomcatViP]

The problem is the performance and behaviour of all aircraft at higher altitude is a bit off in game (as for 1.05) - this includes actual engine power modelling and overheating. Both DB and Merlins have got the same problems higher up.

What you suggest is a suicide in a Hurricane, you won't be able to climb up from a 109 if you both happen to be in a co-e engagement. If he's higher than you, you have to work really hard to slow him down and outmaneuver him. Good 109 pilot won't allow that and will keep his advantage and you can play in on time making his shooting difficult and climbing whenever possible. The thing with Hurri is you can't get too fast if you want to keep your maneuvrability advantage. You can't get too slow either because fast 109 will outturn you. If the 109 jockey makes a mistake and bleeds his speed he's dead, if you fly well you'll be on top of him rather soon. Even good 109 pilots can lose their patience and / or get frustrated after few attacks and bleed e slowing down going after you, break and climb.

If you catch a 109 down below you certainly won't try to outclimb it to 20.000ft in order to have a upper hand. You have it already, so jump on it and depending how good he is (you'll see after first few moments, trust me), you either go aggressive or you carefully keep your e-advantage and pick your attacks. If you're good shot and if you fly clean, you will win. If he desengages, let him go, you won't catch him (well you will eventually, but that will be in France, far and low)

And I agree with Doggles, I often struggle to understand what you mean and I don't get all your whining and accusing others of cheating on ATAG either. For sure, I don't agree with your advice regarding flying the Hurricane at all.

Of course, flying high will help, on ATAG, some 13-15.000ft is plenty for RAF.

The prob with the kind of ppl like you is that you always intend other to be stupid or single minded like you can be sometime. Well... life is that not such easy and if things are more complicated it's a gift not a plea. So take time to understand that there is not only easy solutions to any problem and then you'll admit how good fighting for something is and preclude the use of mods and cheats.

That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments.

Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ?

Btw : thx this makes me laughing a good min

Regarding your 2nd post and the fact that the Spit can out-climb a 109 that's exactly what I put frwrd that we shld not hve here, especially with zoom climb.
I just went out of a dogfight with a spit that completed his stupid flat 360 at 80+ deg bank and zoom back behind me closing like he just hve been catapulted. Wht was my move ? At the beginning of his 360 I simply extended forward with nose up. ANd no Rob, I was not on the verge of a stall.

[reflected]

TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.

Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased).

What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me :D

But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.

[Robo.]

Regarding your 2nd post and the fact that the Spit can out-climb a 109 that's exactly what I put frwrd that we shld not hve here, especially with zoom climb.
I just went out of a dogfight with a spit that completed his stupid flat 360 at 80+ deg bank and zoom back behind me closing like he just hve been catapulted. Wht was my move ? At the beginning of his 360 I simply extended forward with nose up. ANd no Rob, I was not on the verge of a stall.

If that Spit catched you, you were doing something wrong, that's all. ;)

[TomcatViP]

TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.

Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased).

What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me :D

But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.

Typical...
1. Who said I was shot down ?
2. Where did you read from me a personal attack ?
3. I did say above 5km and around 20kft :evil:

[Robo.]

That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments.

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.

Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ?

This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter ;)

As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting. The problem is, it does not say anything about initial statuses of the a/c involved, e.g. speed and alt.

These kind of situations are all about relative energy, one of the key skills of a sim pilot is a correct (and pretty much constant) judgement of your opponent's energy relative to your own. The usual dogfight situation is usualy far from top speed race or climbing competition. But if you see a 109 that's slower than you, can certainly ouclimb her ;)

[TomcatViP]

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.



And mistake I make ;)



This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter ;)



Yup unless you are at alt ;)

The point here is not to gain from the 109 that seat in your 6 but to hve enough time to drag him were the fight will be on even grounds.



As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting.


That's all the prob with this kind of website. it's biased and partial. You can't take all the good and leave the bad, scientifically doing that you are toasted !

Giving all the efforts the author as provided it's sad that he/she did fall in that muddy ground (personal comment).

Regarding the E state that has to be put in consideration, you said it all.

The 109E was one of the best climber of WWII. Such it was that the late k4 was said to retrieve the same climb speed. There is no secret to that : fined tuned aero coeffs to let a thicker airfoil being practicable with a surrealistic Power to weight ratio (if you make abstraction of the engine weight, the basic structure of the 109 compete with many late war design - exception made of the Zero Zeke).

But this is OT. That's not what I wanted when I jumped into that discussion. Neither being harsh with you.

~S!

[Robo.]

I agree, Tomcat and thank you for you reply, I appreciate that. Although the FMs in game are off in many aspects, the basic characteristics are there already - and simply as that, the 109 will outclimb anything IF flown correctly.

As for the topic - Flying for the RAF, I very much prefer the Hurricane (Rotol prop.) as it's faster than Spitfire Mk.Ia and it climbs better. I know this is weird and historically incorrect, but that's how it is in 1.05. Although the Spitfire has some advantages over the Hurricane (control response, high speed handling etc), some might prefer either due to their style of flying. Testing both on ATAG, Hurricane outran and outclimbed the Mk.Ia at any height. (Hurricane had slightly less fuel, but was still much heavier than Spitty)

Spitfire and Hurricane are both good enough to give 109s some grief, but mind you that if you're a good RAF pilot and you meet a equally good 109 pilot who sees you, he's gonna win unless he makes some mistake. You can make him do that mistake of course, but as for 1.05, capabilities of his aircraft will allow him to win and keep the upper hand and should he be getting in trouble, he can disengage from the fight at any time. I am not saying that flying a 109 'correctly' and be succesful in it is easy though, quite the opposite.

Above is my opinion based on the experience on ATAG, your results may vary ;)

[Daliaraptor]

Thanks a lot so far for all this tips and tricks but it doesent help.
I cant even chase a bomber in free fall, which i have shoot down, gues the Engines were haevy damaged or dead , the crew alraedy ejected. This bomber escaped with out a Pilot in the cockpit and i made a power dive?????:confused:
So i researched just a litle bit about historical correctness. And there was as far as i know now, no Plane that made a faster power dive than the Spit.
Which Plane the fastest was is really difficulty to find out. Some sources say the Spit was faster below 4000 feet some say it was faster in high altitude.
But anyway i think first of all is gameplay and "fun" even its a simulator, in real live is it different either. So pleas ATAG put the 2a in it and let the RAF Strike back:mrgreen:

Or im totaly wrong???

[bw_wolverine]

There's a very simple thing Spitfire and Hurricane pilots can do in the game to avoid being on the unhappy end of a 109's bullets that most pilots do not do because they're either impatient or do not plan ahead:

Don't engage an enemy fighter unless you have a significant advantage.

Obviously there will be times when you don't have a choice. Minimize those!

When I was flying by myself mostly I took to flying very high (always 16k ft or more) while looking for contacts and usually higher than that (around 20k).

I may not have found as many enemy fighters, but those I did find were far less likely to have an advantage on me. In many more cases than not, I came out the victor.

Then I started flying on comms. Grouping up with others, I would usually take a wingman role and not lead the flight. People like to fly low and fast over to enemy bases. They like to go in at max 8k ft because it's easier to find enemy planes. They see a plane and they engage it. It's like crack cocaine to a junkie on withdrawl. MUST. ATTACK. DOT!

Needless to say, I didn't fare as well flying in those situations. I'm not the greatest pilot out there. I have a hard time seeing those fighters before they see me. Unfortunately, at these altitudes and situations once a fight starts, the enemy had the advantage more often than not.

So to any Spitfire/Hurricane pilot who is frustrated by fast flying fast climbing 109s, I say don't play their game! They WANT you to try and beat them at their game. Don't play it! Fly high. Fly smart. And for the love of all that's holy, pick and choose your engagements with thought. You don't have to dive down on that 109 right away the moment you see him. Observe, think, act.

[CaptainDoggles]

So i researched just a litle bit about historical correctness. And there was as far as i know now, no Plane that made a faster power dive than the Spit.If I remember correctly, that particular spitfire was heavily modified (special propeller, etc.) and was not representative of the 'service' spitfires that fought on a daily basis. While it's true that the late-model Spitfire has one of the highest critical Mach numbers of period fighters, there's more to fighter performance than that.

So pleas ATAG put the 2a in it and let the RAF Strike back:mrgreen:

The Spit 2a is the only aircraft getting historical performance at the moment. All others underperform greatly. As a result the 2a is game-breaking in the sense that it outperforms the 109 in every aspect.

109 pilots attacking a Spit 2a must surprise the spit and kill it on the first pass, or die. Once the pilot of the 2a knows you're there, he can out-climb, out-turn, and out-run you.

As it stands, the combination of Hurricane/Spitfire Mk1a is very potent when flown well. If it seems that the 109 is overpowered, that is because so many rookie pilots insist on doing tight circles on the deck, or invading France at low altitude.

[CaptainDoggles]

There's a very simple thing Spitfire and Hurricane pilots can do in the game to avoid being on the unhappy end of a 109's bullets that most pilots do not do because they're either impatient or do not plan ahead:

Don't engage an enemy fighter unless you have a significant advantage.

Obviously there will be times when you don't have a choice. Minimize those!

When I was flying by myself mostly I took to flying very high (always 16k ft or more) while looking for contacts and usually higher than that (around 20k).

I may not have found as many enemy fighters, but those I did find were far less likely to have an advantage on me. In many more cases than not, I came out the victor.

Then I started flying on comms. Grouping up with others, I would usually take a wingman role and not lead the flight. People like to fly low and fast over to enemy bases. They like to go in at max 8k ft because it's easier to find enemy planes. They see a plane and they engage it. It's like crack cocaine to a junkie on withdrawl. MUST. ATTACK. DOT!

Needless to say, I didn't fare as well flying in those situations. I'm not the greatest pilot out there. I have a hard time seeing those fighters before they see me. Unfortunately, at these altitudes and situations once a fight starts, the enemy had the advantage more often than not.

So to any Spitfire/Hurricane pilot who is frustrated by fast flying fast climbing 109s, I say don't play their game! They WANT you to try and beat them at their game. Don't play it! Fly high. Fly smart. And for the love of all that's holy, pick and choose your engagements with thought. You don't have to dive down on that 109 right away the moment you see him. Observe, think, act.

This is a good post, and highlights a fact that I think others miss quite a lot. One aircraft on its own is worthless. Two aircraft as a pair are effective. That is why most modern tactical documents refer to a pair of aircraft as an "element" i.e. the smallest divisible unit in air combat.

In my 109 and see a lone Spitfire below me? I start rubbing my hands together gleefully because I know that even if I get co-E with him, I can dive for safety.

In my 109 and see a pair of Spitfires below me? I think twice about attacking because I know that they can play the game where every time I dive on one, the other one climbs.

[_79_dev]

~S~

From my experience: it is not plane flying and winning dogfights, it is human pilot who makes decisions ( quick or slow), has situation awareness (more or less of it), shooting skills , and so on and on... Dogfight is war so he wins who make less mistakes... You ask in the post how to fly Spit? Ask Your self a question how do other aircrafts perform and first of all know Your limits. If You want to know how to catch 109 in a climb, grab 109 and check if it's possible and when is it possible. If someone says " FM is overworked because I dove on 109 but could't catch it up" or " Spitfire do his 360 in a blink of eye and I have no chance to run away" that sound for me like some of pilots have not enough imagination and knowledge to fly WWII plane, or has too many bad habits. So You want to know the truth.... grab a plane and take it for the spin, record your flights and analyse mistakes...Lern from other pilots mistakes if possible... Anyway everyone has his own way to fly airplane so rely only on Your own experience as much as You can...

Something to read:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

and

http://www.av8n.com/how/

~S~

[AKA_Tenn]

seems your starting to get a bit off topic here...

in real life u gotta worry bout a lot more stuff... individual aircraft (not type, but single individual 1 of a kind), because not one plane will be performing the same as any other, due to a mechanic with a hangover, or a badly hammered rivet etc... and you can't be assuming your talking about someone who's average in the 109 against someone whos average in a spit... the only thing you can really say, due to the facts about the physics engine we're working with here is... the 109 climbs better, the spit turns better... so to fly the spit, your job is to force the 109 to turn, not climb with it, and vicea versa with the 109

[Robo.]

This is a good post, and highlights a fact that I think others miss quite a lot. One aircraft on its own is worthless. Two aircraft as a pair are effective. That is why most modern tactical documents refer to a pair of aircraft as an "element" i.e. the smallest divisible unit in air combat.

Very much so, but that's all general facts. Of course a good pair of experienced pilots on comms is worth 4 guys and they usually do lot of damage.

I took it as this thread was more about specific tactics in a Spitfire, e.g. general advantages and disadvantages. What you say and what you wrote before (keep the speed, gain alt) is valid of any fighter aircraft. I agree that against the 109s, the cooperation on RAF side is perhaps more essential in order to compensate to the superior performance of the Emil.

[jimbop]

Robo. - good post at #27, thanks.

[Daliaraptor]

Hey guys

So im back after some Testing and practice as well.
I tryed to trimm the spit 1a always like a fish in the water (verry good tip). I made smooth turns to take my energie with me. I tryed to atack from higher altitude. I did actually everything what you guys told me if i dident knew it before.
But no chance against a ME4 so far.
So, after geting verry frustrated, i took a Hurri Rotol.
OMG:shock: the Messerschmid's came down like flys. I think it depends a lot of how good is the pilot, i agree. But even the best F1 Pilot need a F1 Car to win.
So, for all those who have problems to catch up every ME even with a bad pilot, take the Hurri Rotoll.

Cheers and thanks a lot for all your help and good tips which i use now in dogfight.

See you in the air.