Project " Battle of France and Low Countries " : Add-on for BOB

[FAW_SAUMON]

Hi all and Oleg,

I open this thread to sensitize community Il2 with " forgotten war " in period 1939 /1940 in western Europe ... especially to fly on forgotten planes : French, Dutch and Polish. Despite everything, they have beautiful and rich history !

That wants to also generate envy for the Developpers from 1C, players or people of third party team who would like to join to the realization of this project.

I propose to carry out Topos (with photos) describing History as well as possible these planes.

I thank you by advance for your support ...

( Post scriptum : A topic had already been open on this project here : http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/6961091644 )

Sorry for my approximative English...

[FAW_SAUMON]

Arsenal VG 33

Don't forget Internet site of "Arsenal VG 33" from Monsieur Franck DEVILLERS :

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/8235/vg33highrez8lm.jpg

HISTORY OF VG33 (http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/historique.htm)
CARACTERISTICS OF VG 33 (http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/caracteristiques.htm)
COCKPICT & INSTRUMENTS OF VG 33 (http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/Cockpit&Instruments.htm)
ARMAMENT OF VG33 (http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/armements.htm)
MOTOR OF VG 33 (http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/moteur.htm)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5571/25358qw.jpg

Performances :

Powerplant: 1 Hispano-Suiza 12Y31 of 860 hp at 2400 tr/min at 3320 m.
Wingspan: 10,80 m
Length: 8,55 m
Height: 3,31 m
Wing area: 14 m2
Empty weight: 1716 Kg
Loaded weight: 2448 Kg
Maximum speed : 455 Km/h at level Sea; 554 Km/h at 8000 m ; 545 Km/h at 6000 m.
Time of climb at 5500 m: 6 min 5
Time of climb at 8000 m: 10 min 16
Service ceiling: 11 000 m
Range: 1200 km
Endurance: 2 hours 50 min
Armament: 1 canon HS 404 of 20 mm (60 per outboard gun) placed between cylinders of the engine + 4 machineguns MAC 34 M39 of 7,5 mm ( 500 per outboard gun).

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9291/vg302gc0.gif
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3161/vg301up9.gif

Obviously that remains theory, one did not know his performances in operationnal configuration ...

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8806/vg33photo11gu.jpg

The performances of "Arsenal VG 33" seems to be unreal with a less powerful engine of 60 hp than that of Dewoitine D-520
and with only 200 kg less in load. A VG 33 of series could climb to 5500 m in almost 3 min of less than D520... it's almost too beautiful one could say.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9232/vg3316lc.jpg

Would the performances of the production aircraft have been the same ones as those of the prototypes? (DO not forget that the conditions under test are always ideal !! ) The pilots of tests were enchanted by qualities of flight of the various prototypes tested, without hesitate to qualify them so exceptionnal.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3689/vg33double7xs.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5617/vg330035ij.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7949/vg3010lj9.jpg

2 unknown factors of size about Arsenal VG33 :

- which would have been the fire resistance of these planes out of wooden?
- Which would have been the resistance of the adhesive employed on this apparatus entirely built out of plywood?

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7373/vg30c1la9.jpg

Arsenal VG 33 had some developpments, here:

- VG 32 : alternative of VG 33 équiped with american powerplant Allison V1710 (C15) 1040 hp.
Biggest size of this constrained power plant to a lengthening of fuselage of 0,48 m... consequently improving the smoothness of plane.
Armament envisaged: 2 canons of 20 mm and 2 machinguns of 7,5 mm.
The first flight of l'appareil was pushed back in June 1940 by lack of the American engine (not launched in great series of production).
But it was too late...The VG32 has never take off.

- VG 34 : Powerplant HS 12Y45 of 910 Hp. 575 Km/h at 6200 m (official test).

- VG 35 : Powerplant HS 12Y51 of 1000 Hp. First Flight 25Th February 1940 ... it disappears without leaving traces after 15Th April 1940.

- VG 36 : alternative of VG 35, powerplant HS 12Y51 of 1000 Hp, it is provided an ventral radiator embedded in the fuselage
with a Flush exit thus a new canopy with side panes. Speed : 590 Km/h at 7000 m (official test).

VG 36 :

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7554/vg360ow.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3313/vg3601hx7.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5265/vg36xz5.jpg
(Source : http://www.aviafrance.com )

- VG 39 : Powerplant HS 89ter of 1200 Hp. With this special powerplant, impossibility to place 1 gun of 20 mm enters the
cylinders of the engine as on the preceding models a armament of 6 machine-guns 7.5 mm in wing. Max SPEED : 625 Km/h at 5600 m (official test).
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9782/vg391pp9.gif

VG39 :

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7924/vg396bm.jpg
( source : http://www.aviafrance.com/ )
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9047/vg39fp2.jpg

Projects :

- VG 37 : Development of VG 36 with powerplant HS 12Y51 (with carter de 89 ter) et compressor Szydlowski B generating 1200 Hp.

- VG 38 : Development of VG 36 with powerplant HS 12Y53 of 1000 Hp, with biturbo Brown-Boveri entrained by exhaust gaz.
Calculated speed : 670 Km/h at 8000 m.

- VG 40 : Development of VG 39 with unknown Rolls-Royce Engine or HS Engine 12Z generating 1600 Hp.
It is envisaged to assemble a radiator identical to that of the VG 36 and one armament of 6 machine-guns ( + 1 canon of 20 mm with HS Engine 12Z).
Wingspan 11,60 m and weight approched 3 tonnes.

VG 40 :

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6594/vg39bisvg402rl.jpg

A small thing that i have forgotten :Arsenal VG33 seemed equal to Dewoitine D520 but it was easier to control (impossible to check now!!).

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5286/arsenalvg334yu.jpg

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/1092/vg33main3by.jpg

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/765/vg33plate13yz.gif

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1295/arsenalds50vf.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/10/76360061pn.jpg

VG 33 tested by Luftwaffe after fall of France :

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/700/arsenalvg33capturluftwaffe1cq.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9840/vg33i7yy.jpg

Only less of ten Arsenal VG33 flew in Squadron in defense of French factory in 1940 ...

ARSENAL VG33 from Squadron GC I/55 - June 1940:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2540/vg30c2jn3.jpg


Sources :

- Hors série n°7 "La chasse française inconnue de Mai-juin 1940" LELA presse 1998 (http://www.avions-bateaux.com)
- Aéro files n°1 " l'Arsenal VG 33 " Aéro-éditions 1998
- Aéro-journal n°46 (Dec 05/janvier 06): article "L'arsenal VG 33" - Aéro-éditions (http://www.aero-journal.com)
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg30.html
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg36.html
- http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/vg39.html

Don't forget Internet site of "Arsenal VG 33" from Monsieur Franck DEVILLERS :

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm[/b]

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6498/dsc0079tl5.jpg

[Asheshouse]

Hi Saumon

I am also interested in the BoF scenario. I've been trying to find sources for details of the early 1940's airfields in Northeast France but most of the web based info seems to be later, after the Luftwaffe took over the fields.

Have you any suggestions?

Nice looking aircraft the VG33

[JG52Uther]

I am so happy you have brought this thread here Saumon! It is a great project and worthy of Olegs cosideration.

[6S.Maraz]

Great project, actually one of the forgotten wars (at least in the air).

I really hope that SoW:BoB will be made open for development by third parties (aircraft, maps, objects); or (if not fully open) at least more available to incorporate works made by others, so that such good projects can be developed.

Maraz

[JVM]

Hello Ashehouse!

Many locations for these "plateformes d'opérations" as they were called then can be found in the "DGAC CD-ROM" which is a historical research attempt at listing airfields created between 1908 and 1948; For each of the bases cited there is usually an extract of the local 1/25000 map with colouring made by the author showing the extent of the original french "plateforme" with the german extensions as needed and sometimes the US ones as well.
This CD-ROM does not list all the fields (there were many) but most of the important ones operationally speaking are there. Also many of the BEF created platforms are not mentioned, nor are the German created platforms. Other info can be found at the STAC in Bonneuil sur Marne (bring your scanner with you...).
Some BEF info can also be found in the recently published "Battle of France" book.

I must say that I wait with impatience the way that BoB-SoW will depict all those German and French places...The accuracy here will be a very important factor for immersion but I am not confident when I see the amount of energy (and of visits on-site) needed to get a grasp about the real layout of these airfields...
I just hope Oleg has an access to amazing information sources and local honourable correspondents neither I nor local historians have never heard of in all these years of passion with these old places in Northern France!
And important it is: you just have to consider the incredible quantity of work and dedication people like Ian Boys and several others have put to create airfields looking like WWII airfields (Banff, Imphal, Herdla...), not like 1960 Cold War Soviet air bases (Il2...)

If needed, I can help a little and I have already proposed to OM...still waiting!

JV

[Asheshouse]

Where can you get the DGAC CD-Rom from?

[csThor]

One request Saumon - refrain from posting images upon images. This makes reading the thread and getting its "core" rather difficult. I already "bailed out" of the thread at Ubi because of the image flood. Thx. :)

IMO the BoF is a prime candidate for a full-blown AddOn by Maddox Games (unused topic, interesting types etc). However I disagree on the notion that a load of obscure aircraft types should be modeled - most of them french. For the LW it's easy. There were basically three subtypes of the Bf 109 which formed the backbone of the Luftwaffe fighter force at that time - Bf 109 E-1, E-3 and the first E-4s (although they wouldn't be really necessary - E-3 was much more numerous). The French Air Force had a lot more types but I think concentrating on the historically relevant types - Hawk H.75, MB 152, MS.406 and D.520 - is a lot more sensible than looking up each and any pre-series model or prototype France had in development at the time of the german attack. Why? Because there are french bombers to model, too. And some earlier german ones. And earlier british aircraft. And ground objects. And ... *sigh* ... You get my drift.

[K_Freddie]

That plane looks like a Yak3... makes you think as the French were flying the Yak3 in Russia. Could this plane have been the basis of the Yak3
:)

[Rama]

@Freddie: no, both planes are not related

@Thor: I agree with you. Arsenal VG33 could have only a place in a "what-if"... if one day all necessary aircraft for BoF are modelled (something I highly doubt...) then and only then people could start to think on "what-if" planes.
.... but in any case, IL2 has shown that no third-party 3D-modellers are interested by BoF (only exception was the external model of the H75)... and we all know M:1C will not do it... so the probability BoF will ever see the day is extremelly low.

[Schwarz.13]

Any plans to include the Dewoitine D.520???

http://www.warland.info/IMG/jpg/d520_4.jpg

Formidable little fighter with nose-mounted 20mm Hispano (+ 4 MGs) - comparable to bf109E for potency/performance (apart from direct fuel-injection)...


11)Any plans to include the Dewoitine D.520??? (It’s formidable little fighter with nose-mounted 20mm Hispano (+ 4 MGs) - comparable to bf109E for potency/performance (apart from direct fuel-injection)...

"We - not. But third party will be able to do it in time themselves."

Excellent news!!!:-)

[Rama]

Excellent news!!!

Do you think?

The only good news would be if a third-party team announce that they will develop the D520. at my knowing, it's not the case today.
... so far... the D520 model for SoW is in oblivion.

[Schwarz.13]

Do you think?

The only good news would be if a third-party team announce that they will develop the D520. at my knowing, it's not the case today.
... so far... the D520 model for SoW is in oblivion.

Sorry, but i was under the impression the OP was part of a 3rd party team who were planning on a France 1940 add-on or something.

TBH, from what he wrote it's not really clear at all :-|

[Oktoberfest]

Actually I think third party developpers are interested, but as long as they don't get any infos on how to build a plane in SoW, of course they can't do anything.

I'm expecting a BoF addon for so long already in IL2. I always asked me why they lost time to model fantasy planes or prototypes and not plane that actually saw action during maybe only 6 months of the war, but at least were really existing.

I want a D520 or a MB152 flyable. And a MS406 if possible. And at least one french twin engine (but please not the Amiot 143....)

[FAW_SAUMON]

And at least one french twin engine (but please not the Amiot 143....)

" AMIOT 143 " is the next topo about french airplane :rolleyes: ... sorry

Sure, i don't know if this plane must be created for SOW...So, it must have datas to create something...but now still nothing ... is it clear for all? lol

we are all waiting the informations from 1C and Oleg Maddox ...

[Oktoberfest]

Well, I don't mind the Amiot beeing created, but if the LeO 451 or the Breguet 693 are created also, I prefer one of them flyable in priority to the Amiot.

It's too slow ! We don't need another TB3.

[JG53Frankyboy]

@Freddie: no, both planes are not related

@Thor: I agree with you. Arsenal VG33 could have only a place in a "what-if"... if one day all necessary aircraft for BoF are modelled (something I highly doubt...) then and only then people could start to think on "what-if" planes.
.... but in any case, IL2 has shown that no third-party 3D-modellers are interested by BoF (only exception was the external model of the H75)... and we all know M:1C will not do it... so the probability BoF will ever see the day is extremelly low.


with the planned 3.party tool it will be possible in the SoW engine............. but, with the needed time to modell the highly detailed stuff (planes, groundobjects, maps) for the SoW engine, at least at a good standard ;) , im looking forward highly curious what the time will bring from the 3.party modellers !!

a project like a planned BoF scenario, i guess, that would need a lot of teamwork.

and actually i guess, the first 3.party stuff for SoW will look more like the "typical wanted" Mustang and late Spitcrowd......................................... .....
3.Party guys are free in their time and will what to choose to modell - thats good and correct , but not always to my (very) personal desire :D
and in SoW they even NOT have to ask the Maddox guys if they would include thier stuff in the gameengine. And we all know what even this kind of work brought in the game ;) , from the viewpoint of an historical interested flightsimmer :)

[Oktoberfest]

Well, I think that 3rd party would firstly try to develop 1 aircraft with cockpit and the rest in AI for a start.

So I guess the D.520 or the MS406 would have good chances to be the first french aircraft modelized with cockpit and 2 or 3 others would be just modelized with no cockpit (surely the twin-engine models).

I think most of the developpers wouldn't mind spending so much time on an aircraft as soon as they know that their plane will be implemented in the game. I know that the standard is high and that we will need to wait 1 year per aircraft type, but hey, at least we can hope to get them in 5 years !

IL2 is 7 years old now and will be 8 or 9 when SoW will be released, so I guess I can hope to see my aircraft flying in it on day. (we had so weird aircraft modelized.... P11, Lerche, Ta183, A5m that had actually even less service during WWII than any french plane). So someone will surely model a french fighter at the end !

[FAW_SAUMON]

Well, I don't mind the Amiot beeing created, but if the LeO 451 or the Breguet 693 are created also, I prefer one of them flyable in priority to the Amiot.

It's too slow ! We don't need another TB3.


Of course, Leo 45 and Bréguet 693 are priorities !!

Leo 45 :
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7709/leo4513vce5.jpg



Bréguet 693 :
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8453/brguet6930og.png
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/3715/712004100breguet690series5infl.jpg

[Asheshouse]

Saumon

A few suggestions.
The level of detail required for models in SoW will be very high.

1. Engine details. You need detailed drawings of engine layouts, mountings and ancillary components including oil and fuel tank layouts etc. Some engines were used on numerous different aircraft so a bit of research here is useful for more than one model if you research the commonly used types.

2. Airframes. You need internal details of the aircraft structure. 3D cutaway drawings or manufacturing photos or similar. Photos of crash sites often show a lot of structural detail not normally seen.

3. Cockpit details. Good internal photos of each crew position.

Better to focus on one aircraft type and get lots of detail rather than covering lots of types with little detail.

I would love to see some French aircraft models created, not just for BoF but also Syria and Tunisia and retaliation raids on Gibraltar etc.

[JG53Frankyboy]

actually , i belive the grade of detail you choose/modell in the 3.party part - can be very low ;)

[Thunderbolt56]

I don't know much about 3D modelling, but there is definitely a window of LOD's and polygons that are "acceptable" for any given application. The BOB:SOW models will assuredly be more detailed than what we're currently used to, but going overboard on the polys could make the addition of a particular model as unlikely as not having enough.

If there are modelers interested and talented enough, I'd say they should get cracking straight away. There were a number of aircraft NOT included into IL2:1946 because the 3D models got to 1:C too late for them to do the hard part...coding the FM's.

Some giudeline criteria from 1:C would be of great help obviously.

[JVM]

actually , i belive the grade of detail you choose/modell in the 3.party part - can be very low ;)

Hello!

I wonder where did you get this information? I may be mistaken but I do not remember having read any definitive statement from OM about this...
I hope that if someone is willing and able to do as good or even possibly a better job of making the 3D-model, the associated DM and FM of a particular plane, by all means let him do it and provide him with the needed tools or at least the needed specifications...

If one does not want to wait for too long after release of SoW-BoB the first proposals of value, it would really be time to give some tech info for the interested parties to begin work! I have a very hard time to understand why it has not been done yet?
Visibly these specs are known to a large degree since quite some time: the 3D images of the Spit cockpit or the wire-3D-DM of the 109 have appeared almost 2 years ago...

Unless of course if giving away some information like max allowed number of polygons outside and inside, number and detail level of LOD, requested info and its level of detail for creating the inertia, DM and FM parameters will give competition a pretty good estimate of what the engine will be capable of?
And what would happen then? Is it a real good excuse to stay silent?

Questions, questions...

JV

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Missed a line...

Does BoF in progress of creating? Or not?

[wannabetheace]

That plane looks like a Yak3... makes you think as the French were flying the Yak3 in Russia. Could this plane have been the basis of the Yak3
:)

I don't think this is the basis of Yak3. Yak3 is improvement of other YakXs and those YakXs have their own basis.

I like to fly with Yak3 in IL2 especially Yak3P with 3 cannon. I'm not so talented for dogfight and Yak3 is very forgiving plane :).

[Rama]

Does BoF in progress of creating? Or not?

.... not

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Very sad. Scirmish over Holland/Belgium would be very nice.

[KG26_Alpha]

I'm in the process of creating a DCG campaign on this map from the Mod community.

DCG > http://www.lowengrin.com/news.php

Progress is slow as the Western Desert campaign I'm in the middle of making has all my time at the moment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/BoF1940.jpg