Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[nearmiss]

Sure hope Oleg gets with the program and gets his BOB out soon.

We are hearing bad stuff in the states about Russia making threats about US defensive missiles in Poland. The news indicates it is spurred on by a new self-reliance from the new Russian oil wealth. Threats do not build trust between countries or among people.

As an American, the IL2 was a real eye-opener for me. I developed an empathy and understanding about the Russian people and Russia I never had before. I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was. There was never interest in anything Soviet, principally because of Stalin and the cold war.

Some of the great Russian heros, i.e., Pokriskinin became heros to guys like me. I've bought many books about the Russan air war all from participating with the rest of the world of combat flight simmers with the IL2. Honestly, I look on Russian heros... as heros.

I think most Americans no longer look at Russia as "the enemy". It has taken so many years for these sentiments to be realized in America, it will be a darned shame for anti-Russian sentiment to develop again.

There was a nice guy visiting on dad's day at my son's school. He had a son in the school... This fellow spoke English fairly well and was from Ukraine. There was also a grandfather who was very cordial to this fellow as well... The grandfather had immigrated to America from Ukraine 45 years ago.

It was a very pleasant exchange and I can tell you there was no ill-will or anti-Soviet feelings between us. This is good, and guys like Oleg have done a alot to make relations between Russia and alot of other countries better... with a game.

IMO, I want to be friends with Russia and sure don't want to start the cold war over.

In any case, I hope Oleg gets the BOB done before the "#$#@ hits the fan"

[Crop-Duster]

How would you feel if Russia put defensive missiles in Canada?

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

There lies the problem^

[JG52Uther]

How would you feel if Russia put defensive missiles in Canada?

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

There lies the problem^
Great post!
Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?

[bomath]

[...] Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?Officialy, NATO's borders. Really, they're just testing if the bear is still awake, same as the talk about Ukraina added to NATO.

[WWTaco]

It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was. There was never interest in anything Soviet, principally because of Stalin and the cold war.



A broad statement. It is discussed and taught. To state it is not is untrue. Now maybe in your neck of the woods or the curriculum that was used you didn't have it. But as far back as the 6th grade I was learning about ww2 and the USSR's involvement. The scorched earth policy, Red October etc. Of course in college things were further expanded on.

It's all a bunch of Sabre Rattling. As far as the cold war it's good it is gone but, the world it seemed was a much safer place back when we knew all the Soviet nuclear material was accounted for...

[bomath]

WWTaco, it's next to irelevant the fact that there exists some academic interest. The guy said that it's not discussed, and the ones who dared were witchhunted as commie-lovers 'till the middle of the sixties, if not even right to these days. And if I don't make a mistake, more that 50% of the americans live „in the neck of the woods”, as proven in the last 8+ years.

And I guess no side talks too much besides the „official” lines; not about the napalm-bombing (disguised under the term „strategic bombing”) from the brittish and the americans, nor about the rape and pillage (remember the multiple watches?) which came with the russian „liberating” army, in each and every country en route to Berlin.

[mondo]

IMO, I want to be friends with Russia and sure don't want to start the cold war over.


I totally agree we don't need another cold war but Bush is stoking those fires with his missile defence screen and in turn its pissing of the Russians. Parallels can be drawn with the Iron curtain but the other way round this time.

[PBNA-Boosher]

Mondo, Nearmiss, I agree with you, but it's not just Bush. Both the USA and Russia have been testing each other for a very long time now. Russia's been sending out Tu-95 patrols which supposedly keep violating political airspace. Most recently a Tu-95 was turned back from Japan.

Now, putting missiles in Poland is a pretty hefty thing to do, much heftier than sending recon patrols (that is, if the 'Bears" aren't loaded) over other countries, but each country is stoking the fires each way it knows how. We're all to blame.
Just hang on a few more months. The Bush Dynasty is almost over and everyone can go take their little naps. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter who we elect, if you hate America now you'll hate America after November. All I ask is that, while you may hate the policy, don't hate on the people. We're more alike than you may realize.

[StkNRdr]

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

Please be careful making such grand generalizations. I have been reading about and discussing the Eastern Front since the 1960s since age 13. I'm sure I am not alone.

[Crop-Duster]

Great post!
Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?

You have not heard?

They would be defending Europe even though Europe has not asked to be defended.

[nearmiss]

Don't make light of this. Two Russian bombers flew over a US Carrier the other day in a provocative manner. One did a fly over at abour 2,000 feet. Those kinds of behaviour are not good and are a bad sign of things to come.
I'm just hoping there will be no more incidents either way.

It's really all about politics isn't it? I mean we've had a great time on the Ubi boards and forums for the past 5+ years. Personally, I wouldn't want to alienenate myself with any readers. I have enjoyed reading other's opinions and how they think about the war and all. You could say, I just want to enjoy everyone and appreciate freedom to discuss things. I know we don't all see things the same way, but that is the cool part.

Someone kinda ragged on me above about being ignorant of the Russia role in the War. When we studied World History it was about the old world kinda stuff, not very much about WW2 and certainly nothing focused on Russia. WHen I was in college I took American History, and it naturally had more to do with things American. If I had been more into history of other countries it would certainly be different. Heck, like most students I took the required courses and took electives I was interested to take.

I don't know about "defensive missiles" in Poland, but I kinda got the idea it has more to do with protecting European countries from their own laid back attitudes of nuclear proliferation in Iran, Pakistan,etc. You make what you want about it, but Europeans ignoring Iran and Al Queda is a big mistake. The European appeasement strategy will not work long term with muslim extremists. Those dudes don't just hate Christians, they hate anyone that is not muslim. America has been taking care of Europe for 100+ years because of their own laid back attitudes about doing nothing.

If the Russia really believed America wanted to attack Russia why the heck didn't America do it after breaking the cold war. I'll tell you why, Americans don't want a war with Russia.

We wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan right now if the extremists hadn't cost America billion of dollars and killed thousands of our people. People say the war is wrong, but they are ignoring the "FACT" extremists have and continue to kill American troops in Iraq. Americans are dying, and that's a fact. The extremists want to kill Americans and Iraq is their killing field.

Those extremists are not just Iraqi, they are from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all over the middle east. America has provided a venue for their murder, which is bad... but who is better able to deal with the carnage than Americas soldiers.

Regardless, I may have gotten off the side abit in this posting. I sure don't want issues with Russians who I've come think of as "FRIENDS". I enjoy the IL2 and appreciate the accomplishments of Oleg and Soviet aviation. I don't want to go back to "distrust the Russians" and other negative thinking.

Currently, I'm interested for Oleg to finish his new work so we can all enjoy it. I would hate it, if the product was locked out of American markets. Enemies don't have much patience for each other, nor do they do business.

[Tvrdi]

its always been "We are good and right and they are all bad and wrong"....you must be retarded to believe in such things in 21st century...politics costs us too much lives here....the hell with that...btw, this is a sim forum...just a sim guys...

[Brain32]

You have not heard?

They would be defending Europe even though Europe has not asked to be defended.

Last time Europe didn't ask, some small guy with funny mustaches took ownership of more than half of it...

Anyway guys you have Pilots lounge on ubi for such topics...
I really don't see how this fits in here...

[Blackdog_kt]

Don't make light of this. Two Russian bombers flew over a US Carrier the other day in a provocative manner. One did a fly over at abour 2,000 feet. Those kinds of behaviour are not good and are a bad sign of things to come.
I'm just hoping there will be no more incidents either way.

It's really all about politics isn't it? I mean we've had a great time on the Ubi boards and forums for the past 5+ years. Personally, I wouldn't want to alienenate myself with any readers. I have enjoyed reading other's opinions and how they think about the war and all. You could say, I just want to enjoy everyone and appreciate freedom to discuss things. I know we don't all see things the same way, but that is the cool part.

Someone kinda ragged on me above about being ignorant of the Russia role in the War. When we studied World History it was about the old world kinda stuff, not very much about WW2 and certainly nothing focused on Russia. WHen I was in college I took American History, and it naturally had more to do with things American. If I had been more into history of other countries it would certainly be different. Heck, like most students I took the required courses and took electives I was interested to take.

I don't know about "defensive missiles" in Poland, but I kinda got the idea it has more to do with protecting European countries from their own laid back attitudes of nuclear proliferation in Iran, Pakistan,etc. You make what you want about it, but Europeans ignoring Iran and Al Queda is a big mistake. The European appeasement strategy will not work long term with muslim extremists. Those dudes don't just hate Christians, they hate anyone that is not muslim. America has been taking care of Europe for 100+ years because of their own laid back attitudes about doing nothing.

If the Russia really believed America wanted to attack Russia why the heck didn't America do it after breaking the cold war. I'll tell you why, Americans don't want a war with Russia.

We wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan right now if the extremists hadn't cost America billion of dollars and killed thousands of our people. People say the war is wrong, but they are ignoring the "FACT" extremists have and continue to kill American troops in Iraq. Americans are dying, and that's a fact. The extremists want to kill Americans and Iraq is their killing field.

Those extremists are not just Iraqi, they are from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all over the middle east. America has provided a venue for their murder, which is bad... but who is better able to deal with the carnage than Americas soldiers.

Regardless, I may have gotten off the side abit in this posting. I sure don't want issues with Russians who I've come think of as "FRIENDS". I enjoy the IL2 and appreciate the accomplishments of Oleg and Soviet aviation. I don't want to go back to "distrust the Russians" and other negative thinking.

Currently, I'm interested for Oleg to finish his new work so we can all enjoy it. I would hate it, if the product was locked out of American markets. Enemies don't have much patience for each other, nor do they do business.

If the US concerns about extremist islam were troubling your administration so much, they would have done neither of the following:

1) Be allied with the countries that secretly fund these radicals (ie Saudi Arabia) while making up pretexts to attack non-democratic but nevertheless secular states like Iraq. If dictatorships bother them that much they shouldn't have installed so many of them in South America to begin with.

2) Create an environment for extremist islamic groups in the soft underbelly of Europe. Just so you know, both the Madrid and London bombings in recent years have been traced back to Bosnia and Kosovo.

It seems that radical Islam is bad when a close ally is threatened (ie Israel) but they don't really care when it happens on Russian soil or that of a traditional Russian ally, especially if it hinders the EU and Russia making energy deals because of the hotspot.

I'm not saying that anyone is innocent, i'm saying that everyone is guilty to an extent and that includes the US. And there's nothing that shows this more clearly than the western lack of consistency in their decisions. Sorry guys, but the king is naked.

As for the loss of life, it's sad no matter who it happens to. I don't care if he's a US soldier, a Palestinian boy, or an Iraqi insurgent (not all resistance in Iraq is fundamentalists, their country is occupied and they do what every free man would do). However, the "civilised" west thinks their lives are worth more and that's the foundation of all this. And my country is just as guilty as anyone else.

Just so you know, the terrorist attacks on US soil have claimed less civilian lives than the 70 day "humanitarian" bombing of Yugoslavia, but i remember all sorts of cheering going on back then for bombing people that have paid dearly in blood to back up the allies in both World Wars. There is a well documented case in WW2 of 600 downed airmen (mostly 15th AF) that were not only offered shelter in that country, but an airstrip was constructed and they were airlifted out during the course of a few days, all under risk of immense reprisals by the Wermacht.
Of course leaderships change, but if the US really were after a certain leader they could have assassinated/abducted him or bombed his residence unexpectedly and without going to war in '99. Instead, a leading USAF figure stated on a TV interview for a local documentary show that he wanted to "bomb that bridge the civilians were gathering on because they were defying our might and that's bad for our morale, but the French sadly vetoed it".

Sorry if i come across as overly anti-american, i'm not. I don't hate the people, but the truth is the truth and it's not only the politicians' fault, it's us who vote for them;)

[Chivas]

its always been "We are good and right and they are all bad and wrong"....you must be retarded to believe in such things in 21st century...politics costs us too much lives here....the hell with that...btw, this is a sim forum...just a sim guys...

Unfortunately that sentiment has always been the case, with ebbs and flows. Whats scares me is the bible belts (of all countries) are becoming stronger politically where that sentiment is very strong. All the world needs is countries lead by religious leaders with no tolerance of other peoples way of life. People havn't become any smarter so constantly repeating history is a cross we all have to bare.

[CrashBangWallop]

I wouldn’t get too freaked out about this. Here’s another, more measured report about the incident reminding us that international cooperation is still the name of the game here

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080213/99111861.html

Russia is no longer communist, but a vibrantly capitalist state, with absolutely no reason or wish to revert to an ideological conflict.

I daresay that when Oleg is ready, BoB will be on your local game shelves as soon as he thinks it’s ready.

[Blackdog_kt]

Unfortunately that sentiment has always been the case, with ebbs and flows. Whats scares me is the bible belts (of all countries) are becoming stronger politically where that sentiment is very strong. All the world needs is countries lead by religious leaders with no tolerance of other peoples way of life. People havn't become any smarter so constantly repeating history is a cross we all have to bare.

Totally agree with this.

[nearmiss]

Unfortunately that sentiment has always been the case, with ebbs and flows. Whats scares me is the bible belts (of all countries) are becoming stronger politically where that sentiment is very strong. All the world needs is countries lead by religious leaders with no tolerance of other peoples way of life. People havn't become any smarter so constantly repeating history is a cross we all have to bare.

You are scared of bible belts... The bible belt level of tolerance has always been to deal with those kinds of issues through legitimate channels. Sure a few preachers may make sermons against degenerate practices, but still they aren't advocating killing people.

Straight talk here. The American South is what you are talking about.

I live in Ameican and I watch TV. There is all manner of porn, adultery, drunkeness, drug abuse, murder, mayhem, anarchy, displayed and promoted constantly over television. San Francisco, Philadelphia, Palm Springs, Ca, New York City are over run with homosexuals.

The liberality in America is killing millions of babies each year in the name of personal freedom. The bible belt as you call it is nothing to be afraid of, if you want to fear something you'd better think about Radical Islam.

Lack of tolerance with words and testimony is nothing like tolerance where action is taken.

Radical Islam has absolutely NO tolerance, for any of the above.

It hasn't been too long ago we saw films of the Taliban killing a woman in a soccer stadium for adultery. Recently, the Saudi's wanted to flog a woman because she got raped. Radical islam is completely intolerant and makes the bible belt as you call it look like a Sunday school picnic.

If we had that kind of intolerance in America with that kind of mentality we'd have half the population of our women being murdered in the Superbowl for moral mis-behavior.

The spurious argument and attacks on the bible belt are just worthless diversions, because liberal thinkers want even more liberality in America. How much more do they want.. how much farther can it go. I'm sure it can be worse, because I just don't have my mind preoccupied with doing all the evil I can conjure up.

Americans are dying in Iraq, and it's not Iraqi doing the dirty work. If America is somehow able to actually create a free society in Iraq, just think how pervasive freedom will be in the rest of the middle east. The kings and despot leaders of middle east countries definitely don't want to wind up like Iran. They want to keep their elite positions of power over their people.

No muslim country leader in the middle east has anything to gain from a free Iraq, only the people do.

[robtek]

As once was said in that famous movie "Ferris day off" or something like that:
The Problem in this world are the ISM´s!!!
Like: NationalISM, CatolISM, NazISM, IslamISM, BaptISM, BuddhISM, ReligISM, FanatISM, CommunISM and so on and on and on....
Without the ISM´s there would be more peace in this world, i Think....

[Blackdog_kt]

Mate, you don't create a free Iraq by making it a killing ground for all sorts of different arab factions with you standing in the middle. You certainly don't create a free country anywhere by killing the people you're supposedly helping.

I live in a country where the boundaries between eastern and western lines of reasoning are pretty thin. I live close to these people you're upsetting, you're not. And if they get royally p***ed off and your guys are out of Iraq guess who they'll go for first...me, no matter if i've been tolerant to their different way of life since decades or even centuries. Why? Certainly not because they're muslims. I think it's because someone p***ed them off and left and now they have to vent their frustration somewhere.

As a citizen of a EU/Nato country i would kindly implore you pass this on to your leaders. Stop messing around in my hood, because when the going gets tough you'll just pack your bags and go and leave me to deal with your mess. Just like it happened in the Yugoslav wars, you were all up in arms about it and then you decided you want a different hotspot playground.

Guess who got left babysitting all those countries crawling with rogue nationalist factions? The EU. Now there's Afghanistan and Iraq and while we have no troops in the latter we do have a couple of hundred in Afghanistan but in non-combat jobs (mainly doctors and engineers). Now that it's getting out of hand there too you are asking me, who had no say in your decisions to get involved there in the first place, to risk my life for a flawed decision that your leaders made? Thanks but no thanks mate. Nobody fights other people's wars unless there's a suitable "villain" figure to make it their cause too. And i'm not convinced that the whole of the middle east is populated by extremists.

It's mostly populated by poor people ruled by guys that your administration puts in place, then discards them with a convenient excuse once they're spent. Poor people that are rightly annoyed (to put it mildly) at the so called "liberation" at gun point and the worst thing of all is that when it get's too hot your leadership tries to drag others in the fire. The war in the middle east is not a war against terror, it's a war to impose our way of life and our standards upon a vastly different culture, which only serves to ignite similar sentiments to the local population and make more of them susceptible to the very thing you're supposedly fighting in the first place...religious extremism. I'm not an atheist, but organised religion is not divine, it's a human organisation and as humans have flaws, so it does too. I believe in a higher power, but i don't believe in organised religion.

If you would allow me to generalise a bit for the sake of presenting an example, the reason a guy straps himself with TNT and blows himself up is because someone deprived him of every single reason to live so he can drive a 5.0 litre car. Religion is just a catalyst to that, not a cause.

To put in in a mathematical, "cold hard facts" type of context. Greece is less than a day from Yugoslavia and a couple of days from the Middle East. As a citizen of this country i have to accept a loss of state money to care for the refugee wave someone else is responsible for. I have to tolerate a rise of racism among the local authorities, because people lose their jobs to/get mugged/robbed by the starving refugees someone else sent packing. I have to lose even more state money, which is my own money actually, because the racist treatment that some of my idiot countrymen are exhibiting brings forth fines from the european human rights court. But if i look at the string of events and trace to the beginning, it's someone else who lit the fuse and he lives a few thousand miles away.
What's even better? The fact that i do all these things for him since i have no choice and his holier than thou ungrateful majesty sees fit to screw me over in every major aspect of international politics that have a bearing on my well being and still manage to call me an "ally" with a straight face.
And on top of all that, i have to die fighting for the people that caused all that?

This is the moderate view of US policies during the last couple of decades in Greece and it's also why recent polls show a 70% sympathy towards Russia in a EU/Nato country. The more extremist line of thought involves pelting the US embassy in Athens with anything ranging from coins and eggs to molotov cocktails. I don't condone it obviously, but i can certainly understand the frustration behind it.

[Avimimus]

How would you feel if Russia put defensive missiles in Canada?

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

There lies the problem^

Please do! If anyone read "Firefox down" where the Finns are depicted as being under the thumb of the Russian's and, certain portions of their population being willing to help the Americans as a result, the same thing is true of Canada. Some elements would welcome the bases just to be annoying, wouldn't we? :) ;)

Anyway, it is true that there is great ignorance in the "West" with regard to the Russian contribution to winning World War Two and the unbelievable sacrifices made during the Great Patriotic War. I am glad to see this is changing.

It is also nice, that we can now talk, all of us around the world. Imagine 62' if we could chat person-to-person like this instead of leaving everything to the diplomats.

It is really nice to see the olive branches (especially when we disagree), that this thread started with.

It is interesting that the big arguments here are about things "inside of countries" instead of east vs. west? Its kind of like we "nations" are fighting battles for our own souls. If we can bring peace inside ourselves will we be able to be kinder and more rational in dealing with each other? I don't know. Hopefully 62' won't happen again though.

[Chivas]

Thanks for re-enforcing my point Nearmiss.

[Avala]

Nearmiss

Maybe war games played by both sides to sell the arms to the stupid ones. Stupid ones will buy arms from Americans to defend themselves from Russia, other stupid ones will buy arms to defend them selves from Americans, most stupider ones will of course buy arms to defend them selves from extremists. And everybody is happy, Joe will keep his work in the factory, Sergey will be again employed and have chocolate for his children, and Mohammed can happily continue to play his part, conscious of that part or not.

What can stop you from enjoy discussion and making friends with whom ever you want. Who can tell you what you can and with whom you are allowed to make friends? Why are your country have right to tell you what to think and what to tell? Why should you listen and align yourself with such nonsense? Who has legal right to indoctrinate you who are extremist in the world and who is so called good guy?

Why shouldn’t you think with your head instead watch television and news? You have seen now that Sergey and Joe are both great guys and very good friends, why they must start to play enemies and idiots again? For whose account? What is the difference between Peter in the US Marines and Abdullah in some terrorist group? Peter thinks that he is doing the right thing, so is Abdullah too. Peter will kill Abdullah’s brother in Iraq, so what; Abdullah will kill Peter, who is somebody’s brother too. What is the difference? Both will suffer equally.

All things on this planet, good or bad whatever, have only one purpose, to distract us from using our heads.

Maybe it is now not anymore: “Ask not what you country can do for you . . . “ maybe it is now time for: “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what yourself can do for yourself, for Sergey, Joe, Mohammed, how to make them all and yourself with them happy”. Maybe its final time to start to use our heads for thinking instead only for nice and fancy hair cuts. (me on first place)

[nearmiss]

Avimimus

It is good that we (the real people of our different countries) can talk and know that the people is not the problem. It is the greedy people that are power and money hungry that keep everything at odds. They manipulate media and politics to satisfy their special interests, and there is no regard or respect for "the people" on either side of the situation.

The internet is a good thing, because we can know our friends (the people) in Russia, Greece, etc., are not about hating and being suspicious of each other.

As an American I hate it that people in other countries speak against my country. America is a rich country, but there are other rich countries as well. America gives more financial and charitable aid to troubled nations than all the rest of the world's countries combined. That should speak to people about putting our money where our mouth is. Yet, we are constantly maligned and no one speaks of the facts... what their own country doesn't do.

If America didn't do the charitable things we do... who would do it, Japan, Germany, China, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, Taiwan, etc.? No one would do it, all they do is change the subject and give a pittance (inadequate help) to meet the need. So, they let America do it and then rag on us for whatever reason they can conjure up to get away for putting up (making an effort to really do something).

Also, to clarify... Please note I said,"Radial Islam" not Islam. There is a difference.

[FA_Retro-Burn]

It doesn't matter what we all think. The political leaders will play the queen's gambit and we all pay. It is amazing to me that in the Sim arena, that we all have a darn good time on-line with people from all different backgrounds and not really let that bigotry slip through. At least in this world, we try to do the right thing no matter what flag we may be under.

[Baghr]

I have read the messages here and all have merit and a good point.

I am an American and have respect for all those that give it back or whom diserve it. I too am a Veteran having served 15 years in the United States Army. During this time I completed one tour in Iraq, getting into Baghdad the day the statue of Saddam was pulled down. More on this later. To reflect back, I spent a large amount of my youth preparing for a war against a foe I had never met for the good of our country, while never thinking twice about what I was doing, and I was proud to do so. During those years I traveled to different countries for different reason and have found interesting comparisons and people in all.

I feel there is nothing more honorable than a person willing to give his life and serve for the good of his country, regardless of the country. I will also say that freedom and peace is cherished by a soldier regardless of country. No person cherishes peace as does a soldier.

I do not find it amazing, but rather typical that people from different countries can get along regardless of their political bearing or place of birth, if the persons involved have the capacity to respect one another other on at least a human level. I have been truly humbled by others that have so little, but so much at the same time.

I went to Iraq ready to oust the leader and right his wrongs, a truly idealist mindset from a person that did not have one idea about the middle east culture he was stepping into. As in all countries, I met the good and was subjected to the bad, and still felt compassion for the general person in Iraq. I truly felt honored to meet what I considered heros; those who understood what they had to lose by working with the Americans while they attempted to rebuild their country in the way they could. I was also a student of many there, understanding that my idea of freedom was not the same as theirs.

I met a proud and respectful people, but also a population that had known war and its terrors for many years, and knew what it took to survive. People that had been filed with empty promises before, and knew what could be lost by posting an aleagance without forthought of its consequences. I met honest people and was kissed on the cheek and thanked for ridding sadam and his people, then heckled and hated for the same within the hour. But one thing I learned was people can generally get along if placed one on one in a room with an open mind. I find it funny that politicians cannot do this simple task that the lowest level person can seem to be able to do. How bold of me to think I can go into a country and change their way of thinking to my values, and think this is for thier good. To me that is not what freedom is about, but the opposite. I have no greator respect and appreciation than for the people of my great country and what it was built on, but at the same time I am disgusted on some of the perversions I have to be subjected to under the name of freedom to express themselves. I could go on regarding this point but I will choose not to.

The United States has not had a great track record as stated in following through with its intentions, which is as much to blame on the public as it is on the politicians involved. I think it is unreasonable to make blanket statements regarding a population, never the less a countries veiw or stand on something, as there are too many variables. There has always been sabre rattling between the countries, and the cold war was fought and won through economics rather than bullets shot. I am not a smart enough man and certaintly do not have enough information to make an informed decision on whether America should have gotten involved in Iraq, nor do I have a solution on how it should be ended. I hate to see anyone die before their time, but would gladly lay my live down in the name of freedom and for my country that I cherish. Do not ask me how to explain this as I cannot. I would truly hate to see another setback in communications involving the people of Russia and the United States.

One thing I believe in is that good people die during a war, and to educate yourself in anothers culture will make you a richer person in the long run, while breaking down the barriers of ignorance. I do not wish harm to my brothers and sisters living in other countries, as we are all humans and many times even share the same interests, as seen at this website and many others like in on the web. I can totally understand the aprehension of the Europeans regarding the missiles in Poland, and I remember a Cuban incident that was not tolerated by American when the tables were turned the other way. How can I expect one to live or follow a different standard that I do?

As stated, I too have learned much about the Russia's involvment in the second world war through my interest in this sim, which is much more than that, but is truly a gateway for international relationships and understanding. I just hope I am able to teach my children of some of these valuable lessons of toleration.

Baghr

[Blackdog_kt]

Sorry if it seems i'm verbally attacking someone's country and/or beliefs, i'm just a bit frustrated lately with the state of things in general. As for the US in particular, i don't doubt one bit their contributions in various fields during the course of human history, but i still have to look out for the less than ideal events and discuss them with people so that something might be done.

The US is a very powerful country, but compared to some of the weaker ones out there it's still an infant historically. That is not meant as an insult, it just is that way, but metaphorically speaking to many of the Europeans it's like a toddler wielding a minigun. That's why you get all that flak, you make mistakes and hopefully learn as you go, but we all live on a single planet and the cost is usually shared between multiple parties against their own volition.

That being said, it's very funny that having studied the English language for 9 years i tend to write in a manner so complicated that i miss the point, while a simpler post like Avala's is all you need to get the message across :grin:

Most importantly, it's quite amazing that while this thread has been a bit heated (and i'm guilty of that as well), it hasn't degenerated to petty namecalling and primary school era insults.

I frequent other forums about games too and on most of them political discussion is strictly prohibited, because people can't contain themselves. Presenting a different viewpoint somehow equals a personal insult for some people. So, i am very glad to see that through our fascination with war history, studying why and how things went wrong in the past, we have all learned to disagree and still have a discussion for discussion's sake and not for the purpose of convincing each other at any cost ;)

[Baghr]

Good points Blackdog, I feel most here can agree to disagree, and most have the common bond of respect. While I have not posted since now, I have lurked for awhile.

I personally feel wars are caused because common mistakes are not remembered, or egos cloud common sense decisions made by leaders for the good of mankind.

Edited for typos

[Chivas]

Nice post Baghr

I believe people are the same no matter where they live. There is good and bad in all of us but we understand what is right by treating others as you would hope they treat you. Our main endevor is to put shelter over our heads and feed our families. We come together in groups usually for a common purpose, but sometimes leaders of these groups subvert that purpose to fit their own agendas. The group can subvert the individuals natural instinct to do right.

[Blackdog_kt]

Baghr, that's an amazing post. I always hoped that people are not all the same and we can't confine them to simple stereotypes, thank you for reaffirming my beliefs in the positive side of human nature. I think there's no greater strength of character than conceding the benefit of doubt to a person with an opposing viewpoint, trying to see both sides of the coin so to speak (or all sides of the rubic's cube in the case of politics :) )

People go to wars and come back all sorts of different than before they went there. Some will come back as weak and ravaged men, others will become cold blooded killers and some will be turned into mere animals, functioning only on the instinct of survival. It's good to know that some people actually come back wiser for all the difficulties they've had to go through. ;)

[Baghr]

Thank you for the kind words. I feel there are many more that feel the way I do than what you would believe.

I have remembered all my life my words that were once said by a very wise man (my Father)

"If you close your mouth and open you ears its amazing what can be heard if you try."

I have lived by this during most of my life and it so far has worked pretty well.:cool:


edited cus it didnt make sense-I must be tired.....

[Triad773]

Many like Pushkin; I myself like Dostoevsky.

I knew last week from growing up from Cold War generation shooting down American Satellite was nothing but old dog with new tricks. Well perhaps I show my age, as well as skepticism.

Here's hoping it all works out to everyone's satisfaction. The tables have turned after a fashion: before the US had all the money for weapons dev.- now, with Russia's oil and natural gas wealth (as well as China's cash influx from displaced work,) the situation is now reversed.

What brought down the Iron Curtain but lack of current resources? Who really knows what the future holds?

I'd just be happy to have a 4.09 final. Call me a simple man, but it is a means to happiness.

~S~

Triad

[mondo]

Mondo, Nearmiss, I agree with you, but it's not just Bush. Both the USA and Russia have been testing each other for a very long time now.

From the way I see it, all Russian reactions are down to the US pressing with the missile defense shield. Every time the US says its talked with a nation or struck a deal to put interceptor missiles in a northern European nation Russia reacts with some similar sabre rattling. Since Britain is now talking too we've seen flights by Bears over our shores and we probably have Russian nukes aimed at us again. Cheers USA.

[Bobb4]

Anyone that seriously believes that Russia is a major threat to world peace is crazy. The USA has firmly secured the mantel of world superpower!
However as they flounder in Iraq, blunder over Iran and quiver at the thought of North Korea one has to wonder if being such a great superpower is really worth the effort.
No one respects them, hardly anyone fears them and about the only thing they can do well is send us all back to the stone age if they wanted to with their nukes.
Not something I would like to be remembered for.
The problem with being at the top is everyone wants to take it away from you and unfortunately that is where the USA sits now.

People everywhere want peace, but few are prepared to pay the price for it. I do not know of a single religion that promotes war, yet we all fight on the side of God.

[Sir-Loopalot]

I like to see that a game can force people to think about politics.

To all the americans around here: Dont get me wrong, i like the USA and Canada, was there for several times and had nice days there with american friends, BUT:

The problem that i see is that every US citizen thinks that the US as a country are the
"good ones".
There are no "good countries" in the big game.( OK maybe Switzerland :-)
Look at the "Weapon of Mass Destruction" thing with Irak.Ok, Saddam was an Asshole and the world has one Dictator less today, but The USA started a war based on a Lie.( BTW, the USA is the only country that used Nukes on civilians, TWICE!)
Look at the Vietnam War, where US Bombers dropped more bombs and agent orange on (mostly) civilians than every country dropped during WW2.
Look at the several Dictatorships that were supported by the US, in South America , Arabia and Asia, just to enforce US Interests.
Look at the Democratic Iranian President that was Kicked out of Power and replaced with the "SCHA" by the CIA in the 1950`s ( or 60`s dunno). And after the islamic revolution in Iran, the US Governement enforced both sides, the Iran AND the Irak to start a looooong war that killed hundreds of thousands.
Look at uncountable other occasions where the US of A started conflicts all over the world with the help of its numerous Agencies, just to enforce US economical or political goals.

I have to say it again, i like most of the american people i met since now, but i do not like the US as a global Player.
OK, other countries have done bad things too, ESPECIALY MINE, but there is no other country i know where nearly EVERY citizen thinks that all the wars were fought for good reasons.
I dont like the fact that most of the world hates America nowadays,i liked the world more when i was young and loved America without any doubts, but you will not win other countries hearts by intelligent-bombing the Haters away!
The US fought more wars in the past 100 years than every other country,and now they are the most powerful country in the world. And the most behated. Isnt that something to think about?

[Blackdog_kt]

I think it all boils down to being active as a citizen. You can't correct your country's wrongs on a global scale if you don't work in parallel to correct them on a domestic scale. America is a powerful country built on the honest sweat and toil of its people, but also on the blood of many people including their own. And it happens to a certain degree in every country out there.

Why is the US able to have such a powerful, professional army? Because it's the domestic policies that enforce this on the citizen. If i come from a disadvantaged background, more so for minorities, if i have no insurance, no job, no health care, no means to feed my family and no money to adequately support myself through college what are my options for a good and dependable paycheck? I either go for big money with an uncertainty factor by crossing to the wrong side of the law, or settle for less money but in a heavily regulated environment and enlist in the professional army. Or flip burgers for the rest of my life.

Professional armies are good for a country to have because the personnel accumulates training and experience, but a 100% professional army dilutes the basic idea behind an army. And that is that every man will do his part if the need arises for the defence of certain values and their homes. In the case of the US, a bunch of people will skip going to the army because they can afford a better standard of living and leave it to those with a higher sense of responsibility and those with no better means to pursue a career. In my humble opinion, a mix of drafted conscripts and professionals is best, because it will still accumulate the needed experience among its professional ranks, while still containing enough civilians to doubt and oppose its use as a mercenary tool for some powermongers that sit in an office and talk on the phone while we're out there getting killed. And while they can't do much while they are in the army, they still have something that worries the suits, a voice, a brain and a vote.

[nearmiss]

I think it all boils down to being active as a citizen. You can't correct your country's wrongs on a global scale if you don't work in parallel to correct them on a domestic scale. America is a powerful country built on the honest sweat and toil of its people, but also on the blood of many people including their own. And it happens to a certain degree in every country out there.

Why is the US able to have such a powerful, professional army? Because it's the domestic policies that enforce this on the citizen. If i come from a disadvantaged background, more so for minorities, if i have no insurance, no job, no health care, no means to feed my family and no money to adequately support myself through college what are my options for a good and dependable paycheck? I either go for big money with an uncertainty factor by crossing to the wrong side of the law, or settle for less money but in a heavily regulated environment and enlist in the professional army. Or flip burgers for the rest of my life.

Professional armies are good for a country to have because the personnel accumulates training and experience, but a 100% professional army dilutes the basic idea behind an army. And that is that every man will do his part if the need arises for the defence of certain values and their homes. In the case of the US, a bunch of people will skip going to the army because they can afford a better standard of living and leave it to those with a higher sense of responsibility and those with no better means to pursue a career. In my humble opinion, a mix of drafted conscripts and professionals is best, because it will still accumulate the needed experience among its professional ranks, while still containing enough civilians to doubt and oppose its use as a mercenary tool for some powermongers that sit in an office and talk on the phone while we're out there getting killed. And while they can't do much while they are in the army, they still have something that worries the suits, a voice, a brain and a vote.

Professional armies are not good over the long term here are a few reasons.

After years of counting on mercenary armies the people of the country become apathetic about the people in the military.

After years none of the politicians are true patriots, because they are from priviledged backgrounds. It is already becoming a fact in America, that only the old timers who have served in the military empathize with soldiers and understand what it is to get shot at.

Civilians who have never had their life on their line for themselves and their country just cannot know what getting shot at does to you. Facing an enemy intent on killing you, cringing in a foxhole with rpgs going off all around you knowing that it's just going to be divine providence if you get out alive. Well, that puts real emphasis on the price of freedom.

Overtime the professional military always starts taking power... afterall who can stop them. It has been that way since the history of war. When the lack of respect for the military or other pervasive reasons begin to creep in the military begins to change as well. The military begins to protect itself, when the citizens it is created to serve.... no longer respect it.

Professional armies have a history of creating wars and problems, because WAR is their business, that's what they do. It doesn't often take a lot to provoke a war. Think about it.. America has from what I understand 38,000 troops in Korea. What if a couple of not-so-sane generals got to thinking and decided to go after those commie bastards across the 38th parallel border between N and S Korea. They could start an unprecedented incident, and they might very well be able to cover it up. GW Bush did it, and now the TV news has uncovered and documented the GW Bush administration of the American government was guilty of telling 900+ lies to confirm Saddam Hussein's support of terrorism.

-------------------------

Professional armies have always been started and created from the ground up with the poor, disadvantaged and often less intelligent people. THis is not new. It has always been that way. The elite, well educated and priviledged when they serve are always officers, and are awarded the elite commands, etc.

This a fact. I heard a very well educated American woman talking about the military and the soldiers dying in Iraq. She said, " Soldiers know the risk, they volunteered to go into the military". I said to her, that was the stupid. I asked her how many 18-22 years olds have any idea what is to be shot at or attacked by an enemy. Is there anyway those young people can know what they're up against?

I indicated there is a way, which of course would never be done... Make every recruit crawl through a gauntlet about 200 yards of bare ground covered with barbed wire and pop off ordinance all around (at safe distance from the recruits) and have 50 caliber machine guns straffing just above the barbed wire. If the prospective soldier lifted his head, butt or anything too high there would be a 50 caliber imprint on him/her for the rest of life.

Then when the prospective soldier finished ask them if they still want to go into the military. They wouldn't have very many volunteers after that little controlled experiment.

Getting shot at sucks and there is no way you know what it's like until you experience it. There is nothing worse than war.

[Avimimus]

As an American I hate it that people in other countries speak against my country. America is a rich country, but there are other rich countries as well. America gives more financial and charitable aid to troubled nations than all the rest of the world's countries combined. That should speak to people about putting our money where our mouth is. Yet, we are constantly maligned and no one speaks of the facts... what their own country doesn't do.


I think I should explain this: Many people do say hostile things about the United States. But for them the United States means many things other than what you might expect.

Most people in other countries, including most people who have "anti-American" views, actually welcome and like Americans who they meet and are often very sympathetic to the American people (eg. the sympathy rallies throughout Iran after 9/11).

In my country:

- It is often directed at a specific American government. This is especially true when members of the said governments meddle in the internal politics of other countries (example ordering a foreign government to fire a senior bureaucrat, meeting with opposition elements instead of the whole government, making threats).

- In countries that export a lot to the United States the local economic elites become invariably associated with the United States. This is in part because they tend to be owned by American companies or at least identify with them (and thus often advocate policies like the dismantling of Canada), but also because the United States government often takes their side against the local regimes. The problem is that any crimes, disasters or damages done by any of these companies are also linked in our minds with our vision of the United States.

- The term "Anti-American" is used as a political slur to tar anyone from terrorists to people who want to support their traditional cultures, or become like other societies (than the United States). Anyone who wants to have their own government, make their own decisions, be different in any way from the United States is regularly called Anti-American in some parts of the world.

- In part because people sometimes identify with the successes of the United States and in part because of "the American dream", many people associate the United States with cultural imports, or things that are wrong in their own society (eg. fast food).

In Canada it is regularly published in newspapers that the country will eventually become a part of the United States, that we should join now while we can still negotiate, where we are told that if we were ever to disagree in a significant way the result would indeed be invasion.

This may seem somewhat hard to believe, but all these things are true and do happen. Some are day to day facts of life, others only take place once every five years. But we remember them - we have no choice.

The point is people often love Americans while disliking America. If you just see it from our perspective, you will see how both things are not only possible, but necessary. Sometimes it isn't rational, sometimes it is the only logical thing (to disagree with any element of US police is termed "Anti-American" if you remember).

(If this isn't coherent and backed up by examples, I am in a hurry right now. If anyone would like to help gather examples from around the world - send me a private message).

Anyway, I hope this makes sense,

[Blackdog_kt]

The point is people often love Americans while disliking America.


I think that's pretty accurate.

[nearmiss]

I think one thing should be clarified...

This might make a great deal of difference to those persons that don't live in America.

The thinking about American companies... is flawed.

This is about American companies that do business outside America. Those companies are interested in one thing, make a profit and there is nothing about patriotism or being an American company that interests them. They may have Americans working for them, and they really use that to keep Americans dumb about them being AMerican companies. They get behind that "being American" to give them preferred treatment in America.

They do that because years ago we had global markets and they were true American companies even when they did business overseas. The development of communications, cheap transportation and spurious trade agreements has turned them into profit takers of the worst sort. The American governments role is to protect and defend the interests of Americans... just like the governments role should be for any country.

In the past few years the influence peddlers (lobbyists) in Washington have increased about 1,000 times. Their job is to promote private special interests and the politicians in Washington are now just whores for their dollars. There is real trouble on the horizon for American people, and it may take major action by the American people to do something about the instability created by the self serving interests of these companies and government that is subverting the will of the AMerican people.

Those companies operating outside America that have plants in America are the worst violators of American Sovereignty and any country they do busines. They exploit illegal immigrant workers, and offshore every job they can. They hire subcontractors that exploit children as workers in some foreign countries,etc. They may be called American, because years ago they may have actually been American companies... that is no longer the case.

One of the largest so-called American Poultry producers is now arranging to send live chickens to China for killing and processing and then shipping them back to America for sale. Walmart is a huge importer of foreign products, and that may sound good to someone in a foreign country. The problem is Walmart is only doing business at dirt wage levels with any country it does business with.

America is the largest consumer market in the world, and with our network of highways, airways and railways it has the most accessible distribution facilities to move goods to the consumers. This efficency to the markets makes every multi-national company want to push for product sales in America.

It is not about AMerican companies it is about multi-national companies taking advantage of every possible opportunity to make more money. Those companies influence and buy the politicians in American and foreign countries.
They manuever with government officials at the highest levels with one purpose in mind "Make Money". They care less for the economy, welfare, wealth, health care, jobs of any country and there is nothing "deep down inside" American about them.

Effectively, they are so influential they make people in other countries think their hateful policies are American policies.

The purpose of governments is to keep these kinds of things from happening, but it is tough. These companies have huge profits and the more profitable they become the more difficult they are to do anything about. They can buy more and more influence with the money the make.

America has a problem and until something is done more and more people from outside America will think negatively about Americans, but they are hating the wrong people. We are having a problem with those multi-national interests/companies as well.

I hope I explained that.

The stupid terrorists are targeting the wrong people, it's not about Americans, British, Spanish, etc. It's about the blatant and abuse tactics and strategies being applied by multi-national interests that disrespect countries, governments and the people of any country to make money. The sad part is their own countrys' leaders are just as guilty of taking advantage of their own people. The despotic leaders point at America to divert attention from themselves and encourage anything that protects or defends their own influence and power. One Middle East country has spent billions financing radical islamic teachings in Pakistan, Indonesia,etc. The purpose being to preserve archaic religious beliefs that give them power over their people... religioous belief is a powerful motivator.

[Falke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those "defensive" missles are aimed at knocking out missles (with possible nukes) that could be launched from Iran. They are, according to the information I've seen via several differant news sources, both American and European, the best and most effective place to put them.

Russia, specifically Putin, didn't/doesn't like the idea at all. The US tried to work out a comprimise by putting out the idea that they be placed on Russian territory and manned by both Russians and Americans. Putin still didn't like the idea.

As for the comment inferring that Europe doesn't need or want the protection, fine. Notify your governments and tell them to ask the US to take them off the list of "protected" countries. I'm sure the US will be happy to let the missles headed towards you to go on by.

As for sabre rattleing. Russian, thanks in part to its blooming status as an oil producer, has been doing a lot of sabre rattling lately. Putin, who is if you'll remember is X-KGB, and he has not made it a secret of the fact that he wants Russia's military to become a world force again. As prove, Russian aircraft have been making some provocative, close to the border flights near several countries, ending with their aircraft being "escorted" back into international airspace. It looks as though he wants things to be back to the way they were in the "old cold war days." Always probing testing etc.

Personally, I have no problem with that. Every country needs a strong military becuase hey, you never know.

Meanwhile, Putin doesn't seem to want to loose his grip on power. I don't know all the details, and I could be wrong at tleast partially, but the way I understand it, his term expires soon thanks to the new consitution (if thats the right term) and he plans on putting some in his place who is "friendly" to him so he'll still be able to "pull the strings" so to speak and keep his grip on power ensuring that things "go his way".

[Blackdog_kt]

Funny that i just finished watching a documentary/journalist report on Russia's evolution during the last 10-20 years.

Putin is no saint, but despite his iron grip he usually enjoys an approval rate of 70% or so. Let's assume this is somewhat doctored by his control on Russian media, it still is way above 50%, way higher than what state leaders in most western countries have.

When dealing with a foreign country, you should first attempt to deal with the prevailing sentiment of the people who live there and their culture and background. If you look back in history you'll see one thing about Russians, they support powerful leaders, not necessarily fair but powerful ones.

They endured the Czars, then they installed a communist/socialist government model through a revolution that still had an iron grip on things. After that, they tried a western model and all hell broke loose, but finally they more or less settled for a compromise...they still have a Czar/Party Premier it's just that they vote him themselves. They choose their own tyrants (in the ancient Greek sense, which means a single ruler but not hereditary like a King) and they seem content to do so. If that's the way they want to be governed, who am i to tell them otherwise? You can't force democracy on people, because forcing anything on anyone is as far from democracy as it gets, ie you become a "democracic-fanatic". If the part in quote marks sounds ridiculous and contradictory to the extreme, it's only because it is that ridiculous to believe you can make people like democracy by force.

If the majority didn't like it trust me, they would have done something. If nothing else, they've shown through history that they have a tremendous capacity to resist and overcome whatever comes their way, not only as a whole but individually as well.

Maybe the Russian mindset is not suited to a western government model. I know a lot of Russians because many of them moved to Greece 10-15 years ago and live here permanently. One thing i can understand about them is that they don't care as much about what they get, but what they have to do to get it. They are headstrong, they can party in a frenzy like nobody (to the point that's scary, if you've seen a drunk Russian you fear nothing afterwards :grin: ), but most of all, they are very proud people, extremely fair if you show them respect and prepared go to hell and back for someone they respect or something they value.

They might even be good people that do bad things or bad people that do good things, because they live by a code that's vastly different to our own. And what's most important to them is their sense of pride and their code, to the point that many are willing to sacrifice personal freedoms to preserve their values.

There were two kinds of people that spoke against Putin in that documentary. One is the group of businessmen who effectively stole Russia's natural wealth. The people who agreed to support Yeltsin in exchange for erasing their loan debts, the same loans they used to buy every oil and gas company in the country. Those are upset because Putin hunts them down.

The other group are ordinary civilians, mostly poor people, the ones whom we would suspect to be prime supporters of democracy. Well, these guys, the beggars in the streets of Moscow, the unemployed, these guys said "Stalinist times were bad, but after him it was better than it is today, especially 60s and 70s." These guys considered the communist model preferable to a western style "democracy". They have tried a bit of both, we have not, so even if i don't consider myself a communist, i can't help thinking they might have a point due to experience alone.

As for the defensive missiles, it's not about defense per se. It's about the possibility of one superpower to negate the single most efficient doctrine of the previous century, one that was called "MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction" and kept us all from blowing eachother to bits.

Let's see a recent example. When Cyprus bought S-300 SAMs from Russia, the US and UK were happily whistling along while having full knowledge of the fact that Turkey was making plans to attack them in transit. They even stated in public that they would attack a EU candidate (at that time, Cyprus is now in EU proper) and risk a war with another NATO country (Greece namely) and still nobody lifted a finger. Those missiles negated much of their air superiority advantage in the event of a conflict and subsequently, their political leverage (in layman's terms, it lowered their chances for a successful blackmail attempt). In the end these missiles were not deployed to Cyprus, but Crete instead.

Now, the US is planning to install a system that will severely curtail Russia's nuclear deterrence capabilities. Not a few SAM sites that will target some stray Sukhois, but a system that will make it possible for the US to launch against anyone with total impunity, and hence total disregard for non-american human lives as their track record has shown, but on a scale so far unseen.
Russia doesn't care about Iran because Iran won't attack them. A lot of European countries care but don't necessarily fear Iran, because they are not the ones who've been bombing middle eastern countries during the last 10-20 years (if we include all incidents and not just full blown wars).

What will change for Russia and that part of Europe if the system gets deployed is not an added sense of security against possible Iranian ICBMs, because the chances of seeing one come our way is slim anyway.
Instead, it's the increasingly troubling thought of the US gaining a "get out jail free" card a la Monopoly that worries us.

Sorry guys, but due to your track record ever since the end of the cold war we have more reasons to fear your president than the Mulahs in Tehran. If there really is a reason we should fear them, it is due to the actions taken by your administrations when they lump us all in their west vs east crusade without asking us first.

[nearmiss]

Fear Americans over the Iranians...

Interesting comment, there could be truth in that comment since Muslims are totally taking over Europe. They have anywhere from 6-8 children and within 20 years they'll be the majority voters in most of Europe. So, why would Muslims attack those in their religion who will be in the majority throughout most of Europe.

Europe has similar problems as US, the exploitation of cheap immigrant labor.

The obscure part of that is, it is an invasion, not immigration. It is disguised and played up by the multi-national companies and special interests in Europe just like here in the US, undocumented immigrants. The media is bought out, the governments are corrupted as well.

The Multi-nationals could care less about how many muslims there are, how many hungry there are, how many...etc. They are ONLY interested in making money "NOW". To hell with the future of nations, they're after the money.

There is an unchangeable fact about Muslims and we should all know it by now. There is no way to ever have lasting peace with them. They don't get along among themselves, and their disputes are wars and insurrections. They don't just hate Christians and Jews, even though they may make expressions of that. They hate Non-Muslims and it has been that way sense the creation of the Muslim religion.

As an American, I could careless about missiles in Poland.

As an American, the US government has colluded with the multi-national companies to build a super highway to reach their markets more efficiently and faster, extending all the way from the Mexican border through the United States to Canada. These multi-national companies are so powerful and influential the people of Texas (first phase of the highway) don't even get to vote whether the TTC (Trans Texas Corrridor) will be built. It will also be built with Texans money and they have no say in it, 180 billion dollars is not a small undertaking.

So, a highway in Texas who cares. Right, can you imagine how powerful these multi-national companies and special interests actually are. They will seize and pay the people for their property extending the length of the right of way for this highway and the people will have no say in what their property is worth.

They will only deal with one state at a time, that is their way. They incrementally take what they and deal with things as they come to them. A totally pragmatic attitude, just like their attitude regarding the future of any country or peoples.

Americas government is corrupted and the people in the EU will have their head handed to them as well, if they don't wake up.

The US and Europe have a lot more in common than you or I would think from reading the papers and watching the television. Europe is facing an immigration (invasion) crisis that may already be beyond repair.

It might just be missiles in Poland is just another way to get people's mind on a non-issue to keep them bumbling around while the multi-nationals and special interests brew their poisons.

The European Union will not be good for Europeans for long, especially since the multi-nationals want borderless lands and could care less about sovereignty of nations. Sure the Euro has increased in value from the prosperity in Europe, but at what price. The sovereignty of a nation is a steep price.

Dealing with these multi-national companies that have all these new tools of communication, transportation, easy access to nations, manipulations of governments that are beyond belief may be the hardest challenge we all face.

At some point the welfare of our people and the sovereignty of our country has to mean something worth fighting for.

[mondo]

There is an unchangeable fact about Muslims and we should all know it by now. There is no way to ever have lasting peace with them. They don't get along among themselves, and their disputes are wars and insurrections. They don't just hate Christians and Jews, even though they may make expressions of that. They hate Non-Muslims and it has been that way sense the creation of the Muslim religion.


I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

[Avimimus]

There have been several very tolerant Muslim dominated states in history. This kind of ignorant pseudo-genocidal talk is horrifying to me.

As I mentioned it earlier: I will just point out that Al-Qaeda's attacks have nothing to do with anti-americanism, but rather with gaining prestige and triggering civil wars in the middle east.

I will also say that democracy is something that is learned gradually by a society over decades of discussion, it is the belief that everyone has a role in producing and taking responsibility for government, and finally, that one can respect an opponent and give them time to learn and change.

That said, I really appreciate the olive branches poster in this thread and the wisdom of some of its people. But I don't think I can continue without "storming out of the room", due to this last comment (about Islam). There is no society wide enemy that is impossible to negotiate with.

This is the kind of reasoning that advocated the destruction of North America's aboriginal population (on the grounds that they were naturally unable to peacefully co-exist with civilisation) and a first strike against China's population centers (on the grounds that they were athiest/mind-controlled/communists who were out to kill anyone over 15 years of age or 20k a year income).

Think before you write, people do listen and sometimes a few casual attitudes do, in the long run, lead to unspeakable results.

[nearmiss]

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

[311thCopperhead]

Great post!
Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?


Europe. Simple. Same as awlways. we have far to many Allies in Europe who do NOT have anything remotly close to misslie defense. (piticularly in eastern Europe) Defending from whom should be the more accurate question here. I think we all understand the threat that Iran could be to Isreal and Eurpoe should they contenue to persue thier military prodjects in an offensive nature.
And how much money and financial aid did the US provide Russia after the fall of comunism? Some one checkt he figures. it was a pretty high number.
I personally love Russia. it's culture, people, and consider them a valuable partner in the world. It would seem odd to go back to thinking of them as an enemy. And for these two countreis to scrap every inch of progress they've made in relations for the last 15 years or so.....would be just a terible waste.

To go back to the way things used to be would be horrible. That'd mean i wouldn't be able to see St. Petersburg or Moscow. and that's 2 of the places i want to see on my "Bucket List"

Basically Putan & Bush have to go. Putan, from my limited understanding is a hold over from the old days (and a former KGB man) and Bush is......well Bush.
(need i say more lol)

As for how i would feel if Russia placed missiles in Canada.....So long as they're not pointed my in our direction i wouldn't care. I would trust the Canadian goverment to maintain a peacfull watch over it.
besides Ruassia allready did it once. (Ie Cuban Missle Crissis)....
only those missles WERE in fact pointed at us..unlike the missile defense system which will be pointed not in the direction of Russia....but at Iran.

[311thCopperhead]

You are scared of bible belts... The bible belt level of tolerance has always been to deal with those kinds of issues through legitimate channels. Sure a few preachers may make sermons against degenerate practices, but still they aren't advocating killing people.

Straight talk here. The American South is what you are talking about.



:mad:Do you have any idea what the hell your talking about?
Do you live in the South? I do and you obviously have little to no understanding of southerners, southern life or culture.:rolleyes:

But i'll agree with you 100% on the lack of tolerance with in Islamic Cultre.
there is non. Some of the more outspoken Islamic Cleircs that lean twords fundalmntalists views would make Rev. Billy Grahm look like Hugh Hefner. ;)

[311thCopperhead]

The Muslims and infidels (as we are called) have never been reconciled with each other since the Crusades.

It isn't about favoring any religion, it is written in the Koran to strike off the head of the infidel. There is no tolerance or peace possible when it is written in the Muslim bible. The only peace possible is temporary or tentative peace.

Europeans and the Brits have large problems with Muslim immigrants now. Kosovo and Serbia have certainly had their differences. The Russians have their problems with Muslims as well. It isn't about who is right are wrong, it is about being Muslim or not.

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

I'd say that is some darn serious chatter, only a fool would ignore such talk.

There are exceptions among Muslim believers that just want to live and let live, but they aren't very persuasive among their Muslim brothers. This may be the type Muslims about whom you are thinking.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being in a country like that is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

+1
Personally.....the feeling is mutual.

[Chivas]

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.

[nearmiss]

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.

What are you talking about?

[Blackdog_kt]

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.

The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

[nearmiss]

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".
--------------------------------------------

I wasn't playing it down, what's the sense of detailing it. The whole world knows what happened in that conflict. It was genocide of the worst kind, and the Muslims were the blunt of it. Guess who came to their aid? The U.S. infidels of course, not the muslims.

---------------------------------

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.
--------------------------------

Scared, where did you drag that up from? We Americans are having issues everyday with muslims, and there are darn few doing anything in our interest except to sell us oil.

-------------------------------------

The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

----------------------------------------

Inconsistency, interventionist --- and who wants sympathy?

We know there is no sympathy, because everyone thinks they can appease the Muslim extremists by ragging on American and not participating. LOL

All those little appeasements are going to be worthless when the extremists get around to serving up their revenge for just about anything they can conjure up. Currently, the extremists are just too busy with America to do more than kill a few hundred people in Spain, England or countries.

----------------------------------------

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

----------------------------------------

Sorry, but since no one else steps up to help or do anything. The US has become the world's police. America helped in the Eastern bloc to protect Muslims, and in Afghanistan to help the afghans defend themselves from the Russians.

-------------------------------------

2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

-------------------------------------

And where do you get your oil from? Compromises have to be made.

Like most of the developing world we need gasoline and we may not like who we have to buy it from... but buy it we must.

-------------------------------------

3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

----------------------------------

LOL --- No terrorists in Iraq... who the heck is killing all the people in Iraq. Muslims killing Muslims. Like I said they can't get along among themselves.

-----------------------------------

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

-----------------------------------

What has this got to do with anything? Who turned a blind eye to radical islam? Also, I always had the idea the Chechnya was part of Russia. Oh, I forgot the Chechens don't want to be part of Russia.

-------------------------------------

5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

------------------------------------

Who is doing this? As I recall they just got their independence recognized.

----------------------------------

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

----------------------------------

International law... what law, who holds jurisdiction.

-----------------------------------

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

------------------------------------

buying it??

Pawns.. who are you talking to, everyone has problems with Muslims. As I recall Muslim extremists bombed and killed another large group of Muslim civilians today in Iraq. You tell me what kind of brotherhood that is?

--------------------------------------

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

-------------------------------------

All the theys just don't connect to make any sense.

[mondo]

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.


Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

[Bobb4]

There is no such thing as an Islamic Extremist. Islam is a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a Christian Extremist. Christianity is a religion of peace.
But there are people and they are daft buggers who like war. Even at a young age most of us buy our children guns, model tanks and planes and then we wonder why they grow-up and join the army.
So who causes war, daft buggers who buy their kids guns and stuff when they are young Amen.

[nearmiss]

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.


You said, "Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit."

You said, "Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence."


Then what is the sentence? Deportation after a lengthy prison sentence or worse? I haven't been in Saudi for some time, but they embrace many mundane infractions as forbidden in the the name of Islam.

The Americans on these boards will speak right up. We aren't ashamed of our record, regardless of how other people twist and spin their speculative poisons.

Your Jaywalk analogy is peculiar. Jaywalking laws are practically never enforced, but they aren't stupid. Those laws are to keep pedestrians out of vehiclar traffic to prevent them from getting killed or injured. IMO, they are good laws because I sure don't want to run over someone.

It written in the Koran in so many words to strike off the head of the infidel? It sure as heck is, and those kinds of words in the hands of the wrong people cause problems, mistrust and hatred.

In America, we currently have about 6 million muslims. We get along fine with them and Americans live side by side with them as well. Do you know we don't have any laws to prohibit those persons from carry a copy of the Koran, or owning it in our country. Do you know they actually enjoy all the freedoms of being an American, freedom of speech, freedom to worship as they please, freedom to evangelize other Americans. All things that are forbidden in Muslim dominated middle east countries.

I agree that so-called Muslim extremists are not intune with any religion. They use religion to further their agenda of hatred and murder. They justify their works on the basis of faith, but we all know it's a lie. The media all over the world prefers to use words that apply to religion, because it makes better press. Intelligent people know that, but those ignorant and deceived people that are strapping on those bombs and blowing themselves up don't get it.

Have you read about any vehement denials from Muslim clerics and leaders of those persons discouraging suicide attacks? I don't read of them trying to do anything about it.

An excerpt from PBS frontline:

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region --
not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America.

Here is video from PBS..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/etc/video.html

------------------------------------------------

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

I live in Ameican and I watch TV. There is all manner of porn, adultery, drunkeness, drug abuse, murder, mayhem, anarchy, displayed and promoted constantly over television. San Francisco, Philadelphia, Palm Springs, Ca, New York City are over run with homosexuals.

Ok, you're going to make a very bigotted and homophobic statement like this and then go on to talk about islamic intolerence?!


Lack of tolerance with words and testimony is nothing like tolerance where action is taken.

Radical Islam has absolutely NO tolerance, for any of the above.

It hasn't been too long ago we saw films of the Taliban killing a woman in a soccer stadium for adultery. Recently, the Saudi's wanted to flog a woman because she got raped. Radical islam is completely intolerant and makes the bible belt as you call it look like a Sunday school picnic.

If we had that kind of intolerance in America with that kind of mentality we'd have half the population of our women being murdered in the Superbowl for moral mis-behavior.

The spurious argument and attacks on the bible belt are just worthless diversions, because liberal thinkers want even more liberality in America. How much more do they want.. how much farther can it go. I'm sure it can be worse, because I just don't have my mind preoccupied with doing all the evil I can conjure up.

Americans are dying in Iraq, and it's not Iraqi doing the dirty work. If America is somehow able to actually create a free society in Iraq, just think how pervasive freedom will be in the rest of the middle east. The kings and despot leaders of middle east countries definitely don't want to wind up like Iran. They want to keep their elite positions of power over their people.

No muslim country leader in the middle east has anything to gain from a free Iraq, only the people do.


This is why the biblebelt is feared, it's that very same bigotted and hipocritical BS that we do not need in power.

[nearmiss]

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

Yeah... things can go awry. I just recall how non-speaking we were with Russia during Cold War. Russian bombers flying over US carriers, challenging US over the missle deal in Poland all sound like cold war junk to me. I have enjoyed all the international crowd associated with IL2, and a great sim game as well.

I do hope Oleg puts this thing on the front burner before things get worse beween us. Please don't read that as a political statement.

I'm happy and not mad with anyone. I respect all views.

Thanks to all responders

[nearmiss]

Ok, you're going to make a very bigotted and homophobic statement like this and then go on to talk about islamic intolerence?!

This is why the biblebelt is feared, it's that very same bigotted and hipocritical BS that we do not need in power.

I only used those examples of behavior that is contrary to religious beliefs in practically every religion, including Islam. The sad part is, you can't even speak of sinful behavior without people saying it is bigot talk. Thank goodness, we have freedom of speech in America, yet political correctness is taking it's toll.

[Bobb4]

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

Was dumb enough myself to get suckered in.
I whole heartedly agree, maybe an admin should step in and end this...No need to restart the cold war :grin:

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

Yeah... things can go awry. I just recall how non-speaking we were with Russia during Cold War. Russian bombers flying over US carriers, challenging US over the missle deal in Poland all sound like cold war junk to me. I have enjoyed all the international crowd associated with IL2, and a great sim game as well.

I do hope Oleg puts this thing on the front burner before things get worse beween us. Please don't read that as a political statement.

I'm happy and not mad with anyone. I respect all views.

Thanks to all responders

I have no ill will towards the country of Russia and Olegs great sim has certainly helped with any ignorance I may have had on the matter. But this is a discussion for another forum in my opinion for the simple fact that it can not remain simple if you know what I mean. I certainly hope SoW gets installed on my hard drive in the near future but only because Im a simmer and perhaps a tad selfish...;-)

S!

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

I only used those examples of behavior that is contrary to religious beliefs in practically every religion, including Islam. The sad part is, you can't even speak of sinful behavior without people saying it is bigot talk. Thank goodness, we have freedom of speech in America, yet political correctness is taking it's toll.

Sorry, politcal correctness has nothing to do with it. If it is your opinion that someones sexual orientation is sinful, keep it to yourself. It is the opinion of some islamics that spreading christianity is sinful, yet you say they are evil for that. I say that discrimination of any kind is sinful, unless it's bigots, bigots should be shot ;)

[Theshark888]

Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.



There is so much that is naive/factually wrong with what you say that it's ridiculous. Every country works with/against other countries to get the most benefit. Many times the USA has gone above and beyond this criteria to help many others when we really did not have to.

It took the USA to go into the Balkans to stop genocide (to help Muslims I must add)-where were all the "smart/great/caring" Europeans. Same thing as Darfur-no one is willing to get involved until it turns out to be the USA. Even in Afghanistan it's nearly impossible to get the required help from certain members of NATO. Our next Presidential election will show you what will happen in a World where the USA turns again to isolationism. As a so-called Superpower I think we have been relatively behaved when compared to any other like-sized country/empire. I

[Blackdog_kt]

The point i'm trying to make but some of you don't get is very simple. You can't help someone who doesn't want your help, you'll only annoy them or worse. If a woman is forced to wear a burgha against her will it's bad, but if a woman wants to wear it who am i to bomb her country to "liberate" her from covering her face?

The US has helped a lot of people and harmed equally many. Helping is not their concern, helping people with common interests is.

Nearmiss, i respect your freedom of having a different opinion even if i totally disagree with it. I just want you to know that to an outsider like me you don't seem very different from a mildly radical muslim, the only thing that changes is a couple of names..US instead of Iraq, Christianity instead of Islam.

I honestly mean you no offence with what i'm saying, but your though patterns are very similar.

It's not your ideas that will make you different from those people that annoy you so much, it's how you pursue them that will.

As for the genocide in the Balkans, i live less than a day from where most of it all went down and i can tell you with absolute certainty that it wasn't only one side engaging in the killing and mass expulsion of civilians.

This isn't even new, it dates back to the middle ages up to WW2, but it's not your fault that CNN won't show you a report about it. I don't mean this as an insult, but i don't expect a country with 200 years of existence under its belt to understand blood feuds that have been going on in circles for half a millennium. They simply lack the collective "historical experience" (for want of a better phrase) as a nation to see things that way, plus they've been in so many wars and never saw their home turf getting bombed that i would be an idiot to believe they would understand why things are the way they are in the Balkans. And i don't blame them for it one bit. I blame them for thinking their way is the only way when they have a fraction of the knowledge required to see the big picture.

Everyone knows how many Bosnian civilians were killed by Serbian paramilitary units, it's just too bad that nobody knows how many Serbian civilians were killed by Croatian/Muslim/Albanian paramilitaries. To think that it was as one sided as western media portrayed it is honest lack of knowledge at best, or downright naivety at worst. If you want to know why the Serbian irregulars were so aggressive against civilians in these recent wars, maybe you should read about the Jasenovac concentration camps and the 13th SS Handschar division during WW2. There where no saints there. There is not one of these nations that can claim their guys were 100% innocent and the enemy was 100% guilty, they were all guilty of crimes to varying degrees and they have long memories to keep the feuds going.

You don't end these vendettas if you single out only one of the offenders for punishment, because it's equal to rewarding the rest for their transgressions. If the international community really wanted to put an end to this, they would punish everyone equally to make it known that they'll gain nothing by killing the other side's civilians. Instead, they rewarded 3 of the factions for their crimes by only using force against the fourth. Rewarding might seem a harsh word to you, but it's perfectly suitable. If i'm the kind of person to do this kind of stuff and see i can kill and pillage just like the next guy, only i can do it with impunity and foreign support while he can't, then i'll do it again.

A lot of Greek people went to study in Yugoslavian universities before all the wars broke out and the news they brought when they were forced to return during each war was equally damning for all nations in the area. We just have to believe that it was a coincidence the US bombed the only nation that was friendly with Russia :rolleyes:

As for some other questions raised above...

International law does exist despite the fact the US (and other countries too) is trying to sidestep it on occasion. They are hell bent on the Hague tribunal for war crimes in Yugoslavia, but don't sign the human rights court charter because their hands are dirty with Guandanamo. There is law and there is jurisdiction and you should know better, your grandfathers fought and died and legislated with other countries when they formed the UN, to prevent these kinds of things from happening in the future. Too bad that modern day governments are so keen to do away with their work.

As for cases like Darfur i have one word for you. Rwanda. Where was the US intervention there, when your own diplomats were frantically calling back home to persuade higher ups to send a single division? Well you see, Rwanda is not as close as Sudan is to areas of geopolitical interest like the Horn of Africa :rolleyes:

[nearmiss]

The point i'm trying to make but some of you don't get is very simple. You can't help someone who doesn't want your help, you'll only annoy them or worse. If a woman is forced to wear a burgha against her will it's bad, but if a woman wants to wear it who am i to bomb her country to "liberate" her from covering her face?

The US has helped a lot of people and harmed equally many. Helping is not their concern, helping people with common interests is.

Nearmiss, i respect your freedom of having a different opinion even if i totally disagree with it. I just want you to know that to an outsider like me you don't seem very different from a mildly radical muslim, the only thing that changes is a couple of names..US instead of Iraq, Christianity instead of Islam.

I honestly mean you no offence with what i'm saying, but your though patterns are very similar.

It's not your ideas that will make you different from those people that annoy you so much, it's how you pursue them that will.

As for the genocide in the Balkans, i live less than a day from where most of it all went down and i can tell you with absolute certainty that it wasn't only one side engaging in the killing and mass expulsion of civilians.

This isn't even new, it dates back to the middle ages up to WW2, but it's not your fault that CNN won't show you a report about it. I don't mean this as an insult, but i don't expect a country with 200 years of existence under its belt to understand blood feuds that have been going on in circles for half a millennium. They simply lack the collective "historical experience" (for want of a better phrase) as a nation to see things that way, plus they've been in so many wars and never saw their home turf getting bombed that i would be an idiot to believe they would understand why things are the way they are in the Balkans. And i don't blame them for it one bit. I blame them for thinking their way is the only way when they have a fraction of the knowledge required to see the big picture.

Everyone knows how many Bosnian civilians were killed by Serbian paramilitary units, it's just too bad that nobody knows how many Serbian civilians were killed by Croatian/Muslim/Albanian paramilitaries. To think that it was as one sided as western media portrayed it is honest lack of knowledge at best, or downright naivety at worst. If you want to know why the Serbian irregulars were so aggressive against civilians in these recent wars, maybe you should read about the Jasenovac concentration camps and the 13th SS Handschar division during WW2. There where no saints there. There is not one of these nations that can claim their guys were 100% innocent and the enemy was 100% guilty, they were all guilty of crimes to varying degrees and they have long memories to keep the feuds going.

You don't end these vendettas if you single out only one of the offenders for punishment, because it's equal to rewarding the rest for their transgressions. If the international community really wanted to put an end to this, they would punish everyone equally to make it known that they'll gain nothing by killing the other side's civilians. Instead, they rewarded 3 of the factions for their crimes by only using force against the fourth. Rewarding might seem a harsh word to you, but it's perfectly suitable. If i'm the kind of person to do this kind of stuff and see i can kill and pillage just like the next guy, only i can do it with impunity and foreign support while he can't, then i'll do it again.

A lot of Greek people went to study in Yugoslavian universities before all the wars broke out and the news they brought when they were forced to return during each war was equally damning for all nations in the area. We just have to believe that it was a coincidence the US bombed the only nation that was friendly with Russia :rolleyes:

As for some other questions raised above...

International law does exist despite the fact the US (and other countries too) is trying to sidestep it on occasion. They are hell bent on the Hague tribunal for war crimes in Yugoslavia, but don't sign the human rights court charter because their hands are dirty with Guandanamo. There is law and there is jurisdiction and you should know better, your grandfathers fought and died and legislated with other countries when they formed the UN, to prevent these kinds of things from happening in the future. Too bad that modern day governments are so keen to do away with their work.

As for cases like Darfur i have one word for you. Rwanda. Where was the US intervention there, when your own diplomats were frantically calling back home to persuade higher ups to send a single division? Well you see, Rwanda is not as close as Sudan is to areas of geopolitical interest like the Horn of Africa :rolleyes:

Reading your posting I realize regardless what is written, or how much good you know the US has done you seek occassion against US. Therefore you will always be able to turn over at least one stone for disagreement.

You accuse the US, but where was your country when Rwanda needed help?
What did your country do to prevent genocide in the the Serbia /Kosovo/ Croatia conflicts? The US recognized the independence of Kosovo, several days ago. Did your country do that?

You're just like others that blame America to ignore the fact your own country does nothing. It's not about being a rich or poor country, when a country wants to help they can find a way.

The world is full of whiners, excuse makers, people and governments that do nothing to help others. So, I say before you accuse the US take a look at what your own country does.

[Bobb4]

Relax guys