The Northrop Grumman Issue.

[Fighterace]

Hello my fellow Il-2 players.

Lately i've been trying to get my head around this Northrop Grumman issue as to "How and why" there is limitations imposed on this game as to what can and cant be available in a plain and simple flight sim.

I'm a big fan of WW2 aircraft as a good majority of players on here are and one thing id like to wish for is to fly a F7F Tigercat, P-61 and etc in Il-2 but We can't because a big aviation company say no for some BS reason and it really, really is frustrating to adhere too.

Anyways...My question is this. Is there any possible way that NG can allow IC/Maddox games to be allowed to make these limitations be lifted by at least a petition or something. I mean with Team Daidalos improving this game with every patch they are technically not selling this product so you would think putting in, lets say a P-61, in this game but not selling it on a CD it must comply within NG's rules and etc.

Well, that is my rant for this topic and iif I'm wrong in anything I aplogise in advance as i have a small understanding as to what is going on.

If any Moderators or Admin feel it is necessary to remove this topic I totally understand and i have no intention of spamming this forum.

Thanks for your time and understanding

Nathan aka "Fighterace"

[Xilon_x]

northrop Grumman, and the 'American?
at this point whether the northrop Grumman puts limitations to IL-2 Sturmovik I prohibit the sale of game in the U.S.
because in u.s.a. play whit italian airplane or german secret airplane and swastica is proibited?
mmmmmmm incredible confusion we live in the 2011 and the nation of the world are stupid and have this stupid rules.
EXAMPLE in future ALENIA AEREMACCHI proibisced the publication of macchi in the game is ridicle.

[CWMV]

You can't blame them for wanting compensation for using their creations. But if you really want these planes they are available in the mod community or are being worked on as we speak.

[IceFire]

You can't blame them for wanting compensation for using their creations. But if you really want these planes they are available in the mod community or are being worked on as we speak.

Sure we can! :) 70 year old airplanes that the current company had no hand in designing (aside from the obvious Grumman examples) that were funded by war bonds and government money (effectively therefore in the public domain) ... should be in the public domain.

But that's an argument for lawyers :)

For all of the arguments about the Northrup Grumman thing there are a dozen other aircraft by manufacturers that aren't so insanely monetarily inclined.

[Fighterace]

Sure we can! :) 70 year old airplanes that the current company had no hand in designing (aside from the obvious Grumman examples) that were funded by war bonds and government money (effectively therefore in the public domain) ... should be in the public domain.

But that's an argument for lawyers :)

For all of the arguments about the Northrup Grumman thing there are a dozen other aircraft by manufacturers that aren't so insanely monetarily inclined.

So...what can we do anything about it? Or do we just have to suck it u and move on???

[Xilon_x]

american northrop grumman mantein a secret of construction and production of military airplane? hahahahahahah very very stupid but this airplane are old 80 years ago not have a secret. now today any nation product another type of airplane yes 6 generation of airplane yes 6 generation stealt airpane uav and drone.
ok ok i am italian i not have a secret military this is a new italian military secret airplane.(prototype by ALENIA) SKY-X and SKY-Y.
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/fotoLo277.jpg
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/fotoLo171.jpg
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/fotoLo278.jpg
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/fotoLo172.jpg
NEURON
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/fotoLo78.jpg
AERMACCHI 346
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/M346_1_700.jpg
http://www.alenia-aeronautica.it/Eng/Media/PhotoGallery/M_346LPR700.jpg
http://www.aermacchi.it/files/M-346_07.jpg

[JimmyBlonde]

Meh, just model them anyway and screw Grumman. If they want to be dragged through the press for irrationally bullying a poor little games company then that's their lookout.

I hope their share prices plummet, most Grumman planes were over-rated crap anyway.

[Artist]

Meh, just model them anyway and screw Grumman. If they want to be dragged through the press for irrationally bullying a poor little games company then that's their lookout.

Sorry, wrong: In this case it's 1c and Maddox Games who will be sued and will pay dearly. And AFAIK there has even a contract been signed with Grumman.

So, no way.

Apart from that: Please make a forum search on "Grumman" and you'll find that this subject pops up every now and then and always ends in: "Sorry, no way we could do this."

[Xilon_x]

Northrop-Grumman took legal action against Ubisoft over the unlicensed use of trademarks they own (specifically, "Grumman") on the Pacific Fighters box and packaging. This legal action was perfectly justified.

UbiSoft and Maddox games jointly settled out of court with Northrop-Grumman. However, Ubisoft provided very bad legal assistance to Oleg, regardless of what he has been led to believe and has said. It is obvious his limited english and complete unfamiliarity with the American legal system were both taken advantage of.

The settlement covered the unauthorized use of a Northrop-Grumman trademark. Perfectly reasonable.

Northrop-Grumman, however, took advantage of the situation to also advance their demands for licensing fees to depict WWII era material. This has no legal basis, despite what they may claim. This has been established in court.

Despite this, as they had Ubisoft and Maddox Games at their mercy, Northrop-Grumman also legally bound them to pay exhorbant licensing fees to use any aircraft (or other material) that Northrop-Grumman claimed intellectual ownership of. Ubisoft's legal representation to Oleg presented the situation inaccurately, convincing Oleg that he had no choice or hope but to accept their demands. Regardless of the previous legal veracity of their claims, Northrop-Grumman now DOES have the legal right to demand licensing from Oleg.

The final insult was that Ubisoft, who commited the original infringement (as they are responsible for product packaging, and thus the infringing text on the box), made Oleg pay Northrop-Grumman the settlement.

Heroes of the Pacific (the creators of which, IRGurus, I spoke to personally) and Blazing Aces both feature various 'disputed' aircraft because Ubisoft didn't screw up the box on those and because those developers happened to speak fluent English and thus could fend of Northrop-Grummans baseless claims. N-G did approach IRGurus (who made Heroes), but was rebuffed and did not make further demands.

The settlement also stipulated that the matter not be discussed publicly (since it obviously would show the true colors of two out of three parties involved), which is why any and all threads that bring this matter up are deleted.

The only group who benefitted were the lawyers of a multi-billion dollar defense contractor. A multi-million dollar global game publisher sidestepped the blame and the fine. Ultimately, a dedicated Russian development studio, many of those working on a project for them at the time, those peoples' immediate families, the project's fans, and legal precedent all suffered.

I know. I built the P-61. Kami had a finished B-29 interior. An underway TBF cockpit and a completely finished Yorktown carrier were yanked. Other content that was planned, in progress, or even finished--some of it expensive--was discarded. Some artists who had devoted extraordinary time and made significant personal sacrifices to contribute to Pacific Fighters were never compensated and almost didn't even get acknowledged.

All of which Northrop-Grumman and Ubisoft have demanded be kept secret.

I, however, am not going to take this anymore. This entire post will be permanently saved to another location. I will link to it whenever the subject is broached. If I am banned, I will make sure it is publicly known here that this is why.

Oleg was taken advantage of in a horrible way, by those who stood to lose nothing and who had no support for their demands. We owe him our efforts to correct that.

[Tacoma74]

How irritating :evil:

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Xilon, you should use the quote function, if you quote someone. ;-)

[JimmyBlonde]

Sorry, wrong: In this case it's 1c and Maddox Games who will be sued and will pay dearly. And AFAIK there has even a contract been signed with Grumman.


So get modders to do it, call the thing the Grumman Gaylord and give it the crappiest FM ever.

[IceFire]

So...what can we do anything about it? Or do we just have to suck it u and move on???
Basically.

There's no chance of their being significant political clout to strike this down at the high level and none of us are stinking rich (and I don't even live in the right country) enough to mount a legal challenge that would bring this down. They did the same thing to plastic model makers. I believe it was eventually struck down... but because there is presumably a legally binding agreement in place (I only know of it unofficially) there isn't anything to be done.

So... yep we have to suck it up and move along. It's a shame. But at least there are some other types of aircraft that we could have instead. It's not a substitute either but at least it's not a total dead end all around.

[Xilon_x]

but but icefire the airpplane for il-2 sturmovik 1946 are old 80 years ago is very very strange this legal action if i go in the american museum i loock the northrop grumman in free mode not censure not secret is very strange america is a free nation whit because attak 1c maddox for a simple copy of desine yes desine and not copy of real plane desine 3d in the game simple desine.

[IceFire]

but but icefire the airpplane for il-2 sturmovik 1946 are old 80 years ago is very very strange this legal action if i go in the american museum i loock the northrop grumman in free mode not censure not secret is very strange america is a free nation whit because attak 1c maddox for a simple copy of desine yes desine and not copy of real plane desine 3d in the game simple desine.
It's extreme capitalism... anything to make a buck or a few million.

I think it's completely ludicrous but I think that of a great many things :)

[Fighterace]

Northrop-Grumman took legal action against Ubisoft over the unlicensed use of trademarks they own (specifically, "Grumman") on the Pacific Fighters box and packaging. This legal action was perfectly justified.

UbiSoft and Maddox games jointly settled out of court with Northrop-Grumman. However, Ubisoft provided very bad legal assistance to Oleg, regardless of what he has been led to believe and has said. It is obvious his limited english and complete unfamiliarity with the American legal system were both taken advantage of.

The settlement covered the unauthorized use of a Northrop-Grumman trademark. Perfectly reasonable.

Northrop-Grumman, however, took advantage of the situation to also advance their demands for licensing fees to depict WWII era material. This has no legal basis, despite what they may claim. This has been established in court.

Despite this, as they had Ubisoft and Maddox Games at their mercy, Northrop-Grumman also legally bound them to pay exhorbant licensing fees to use any aircraft (or other material) that Northrop-Grumman claimed intellectual ownership of. Ubisoft's legal representation to Oleg presented the situation inaccurately, convincing Oleg that he had no choice or hope but to accept their demands. Regardless of the previous legal veracity of their claims, Northrop-Grumman now DOES have the legal right to demand licensing from Oleg.

The final insult was that Ubisoft, who commited the original infringement (as they are responsible for product packaging, and thus the infringing text on the box), made Oleg pay Northrop-Grumman the settlement.

Heroes of the Pacific (the creators of which, IRGurus, I spoke to personally) and Blazing Aces both feature various 'disputed' aircraft because Ubisoft didn't screw up the box on those and because those developers happened to speak fluent English and thus could fend of Northrop-Grummans baseless claims. N-G did approach IRGurus (who made Heroes), but was rebuffed and did not make further demands.

The settlement also stipulated that the matter not be discussed publicly (since it obviously would show the true colors of two out of three parties involved), which is why any and all threads that bring this matter up are deleted.

The only group who benefitted were the lawyers of a multi-billion dollar defense contractor. A multi-million dollar global game publisher sidestepped the blame and the fine. Ultimately, a dedicated Russian development studio, many of those working on a project for them at the time, those peoples' immediate families, the project's fans, and legal precedent all suffered.

I know. I built the P-61. Kami had a finished B-29 interior. An underway TBF cockpit and a completely finished Yorktown carrier were yanked. Other content that was planned, in progress, or even finished--some of it expensive--was discarded. Some artists who had devoted extraordinary time and made significant personal sacrifices to contribute to Pacific Fighters were never compensated and almost didn't even get acknowledged.

All of which Northrop-Grumman and Ubisoft have demanded be kept secret.

I, however, am not going to take this anymore. This entire post will be permanently saved to another location. I will link to it whenever the subject is broached. If I am banned, I will make sure it is publicly known here that this is why.

Oleg was taken advantage of in a horrible way, by those who stood to lose nothing and who had no support for their demands. We owe him our efforts to correct that.

So what can we do about it to get NG back into IL-2 1946?

[batistadk]

This matter is the type I'm buying nowadays. I have posted complains about this terrible deal some months ago, but, besides doing this, there aren't many things to do.

We are talking here about millions of dollars and all of that shine stuff that comes with capitalism. It's terrible to know that people like those in NG Corp., tries to erase the history of their own country, based only in money interests.

Besides online sells, that I think has some volume yet, IL-2 is out of the market for a long time now. It's a 10 years old product, and if we are talking about an electronic product, this age can be considered worse. It's not a huge profitable product anymore. And it's usage nowadays is based in a very 'closed' community, most of people enthusiasts of aviation history, WWII history etc. Then, we are talking about a 'bunch of guys' that don't wanna do any money with this software, but only have some fun in their free time.

But, taking in consideration the kind of stuff we are talking about here, as quoted by Xilon_X, the problem is much worse than it could be, and show us a good motive to not see Oleg, Maddox Games, or even the Team Daidalos involved in this kind of discussion. It's like a minefield, and if thah thing is going to blow, no one wants to be close. Totally understandable and fair. Besides that, Oleg is now working in a totally different project, and I think the last thing he wanna listen is the 'NG Corp.' name.

I'm not north american. But the only real shame is access the NG Corp. site, and read all the bullshit about being american, years full of history etc. They forgot to mention that when greens come this way, all of that can be forgotten.

I think we have a strong comunity out there, and of course, a lot of talented people that understand more than me about laws, copyright issues etc. But, unless someone wants to enter in a big fight with NG Corp., and it would be, we can do nothing about this issue. So we have to suck it up and move along. as you said guys. Unfortunately.

batistadk

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

...suck it up and move along... and fly some east front missions! Hey! Or for the japanese... or the Regio Aeronautica... or... or... or!

Its not that NG took us our toy away, hm? ;-)

[T_O_A_D]

It would be nice if NG would drop their attitude for future games or additions to newer products by Oleg.

Forget about IL2 and what they pulled over on it.

[Viking]

It would be nice if NG would drop their attitude for future games or additions to newer products by Oleg.

Forget about IL2 and what they pulled over on it.

A US defence contractor that lives and thrives on the hate and fear of the American population will coop with a Russian war games maker??

Dont make me laugh!

[Jumpy]

It would be nice if NG would drop their attitude for future games or additions to newer products by Oleg.

I don't think that Arms manufacturers see themselves as in the business of being "nice.":rolleyes: It's all about money, it's all about money. it's all abou.....
I just thought about something funny, what do you think? A lady once told me proudly that her son was a lawyer, to which I replied: "Oh, couldn't he find honest work?" :grin:

[Buster_Dee]

The hole NG argument is so foolish. A software facsimile can not possibly perform functions of real life, so how can it threaten or abuse anything. Now, if we created a complete dog that looked SOMETHING like a NG product, then I can see them being upset. I sometimes think they are oblivious to all their engineers who got their start making models. Sounds like free marketing to me.

If I dress up like a brownie, that doesn't make me one. If I claim I am, who can be so duped as to believe it. If it makes someone hungry for the real thing, you don't hear the baker complaining.

Well, most bakers....

[IceFire]

The hole NG argument is so foolish. A software facsimile can not possibly perform functions of real life, so how can it threaten or abuse anything. Now, if we created a complete dog that looked SOMETHING like a NG product, then I can see them being upset. I sometimes think they are oblivious to all their engineers who got their start making models. Sounds like free marketing to me.

If I dress up like a brownie, that doesn't make me one. If I claim I am, who can be so duped as to believe it. If it makes someone hungry for the real thing, you don't hear the baker complaining.

Well, most bakers....
Indeed it is foolish. Nobody said that the legal system plus corporate greed made any sense either. It's not even a matter of threatening their competitive place in the market... their whole thing is about the portrayal of stuff that they know own. Why not charge licensing fees to get some more cash... That's how they operate. Anything for the almighty dollar because that is good for shareholders.

[scott_fitz96]

To be honest, I'm completely baffled by the whole thing. There are already Grumman aircraft in-game... F4F and F6F namely... so why have they not been withdrawn or something in accordance with this "agreement"?

And then you have to wonder about all the other big aircraft manufacturers - Supermarine, Hawker, Avro, de Havilland, Messerschmitt, Focke-Wulf, Mitsubishi, Boeing, Consolidated, Lockheed - okay, most of them don't exist anymore. But one wonders why they haven't taken a similar approach to their aircraft being replicated in a computer game?

Now, either I'm a total noob and missed something, or I'm not quite understanding this issue... just my 2 cents worth.

Tally-ho,
Scott.

[NukeItFromOrbit]

A US defence contractor that lives and thrives on the hate and fear of the American population will coop with a Russian war games maker??
Dont make me laugh!

"Lives and thrives on the hate and fear of the American population"???

There are many good people working for Northrop Grumman and they still make some damn impressive aircraft and systems today. Aircraft and weapon systems which we need BTW.

If this is true, it is completely wrong of NG and their lawyers to take advantage of 1C like that, and it was wrong of Ubisoft to allow it to happen. Yet this is typical corporate behavior and shouldn't reflect on the engineers, workers, and others at NG.

It seems strange that certain aircraft like the F4F and F6F would be allowed under this "agreement" yet all others not allowed without fees. Also, Xilon's post refererenced the B-29 which is a Boeing, not Northrop or Grumman, aircraft.

[Viking]

"All it takes for evil to prevail is for a few good men to do nothing."
Or worse to work for it.

As for the "Aircraft and weapon systems which we need BTW" I can asure you that WE dont!

Viking

[zipper]

An interesting distinction is made here between photographs/art (note the requirements) and everything else. I would imagine you are free to request further information from the contact listed if you feel the need ...

http://www.northropgrumman.com/ipm/tmpolicy.html


Another interesting point: " ...Grumman, as the manufacturer, owns the trademarks (e.g. "F-14", "Corsair") in the vehicles it makes." Since it didn't design or develop the F4U and only briefly owned part of Vought in the '90s, this must refer to the F2G which they did develop. Another lost aircraft ...

[HundertneunGustav]

dont worry... the ace combat and hawX peeps manage to get Tomcats in their games... and i bet they dont pay any fees either.
if the grumman stuff is stuffed for now, we canstill have these planes... just not from the parties involved in the discussed issue here. (which... IS... an issue.)
and with proper, neutral cover art and packaging.

[Xilon_x]

sorry my ignorance to american airplane N.Grumman how many airplane made in U.S. N.G. missing in il-2? what is the + + important? what is the type and model? you have the list? not all airplane only northrop grumman.
expecialy american airplane worked in europe during ww2.

[Fighterace]

I still dream of more NG aircraft being added to IL-2 1946 some day :)

[csThor]

To be honest, I'm completely baffled by the whole thing. There are already Grumman aircraft in-game... F4F and F6F namely... so why have they not been withdrawn or something in accordance with this "agreement"?

Because they've been "paid for".

[NukeItFromOrbit]

"All it takes for evil to prevail is for a few good men to do nothing."
Or worse to work for it.
As for the "Aircraft and weapon systems which we need BTW" I can asure you that WE dont!
Viking

Work for evil? I don't know whose lies you have been buying but that simply isn't true.

For the most part, Northrop-Grumman is a corporation like any other, meaning they will pull garbage like this and bother a smaller game developer over trademark related issues. I don't support this behavior in anyway, but unfortunately that is the state of business in most of the world.

Yet there are valid reasons for NG's continued existence and I'm sure many of their workers remember the legacy of Northrop and Grumman. Yes they make many systems the United States needs because one simple fact always remains true. Through use or obsolesce, old systems including aircraft, need to be replaced. Plus there are always new capabilities the US military (or foreign customers) hope to in order to counter new or existing threats. Technology is always advancing.

The defense industry in the United States has been consolidated too much for my liking, and I honestly don't have much respect for the higher-level management of NG or most major corporations, defense-related or otherwise, but you're completely in the wrong to disrespect those workers and engineers.

[IceFire]

dont worry... the ace combat and hawX peeps manage to get Tomcats in their games... and i bet they dont pay any fees either.
if the grumman stuff is stuffed for now, we canstill have these planes... just not from the parties involved in the discussed issue here. (which... IS... an issue.)
and with proper, neutral cover art and packaging.

Ace Combat's various games include disclaimer mentioning that they were licensed by the various manufacturers to include the aircraft.

[Viking]

Work for evil? I don't know whose lies you have been buying but that simply isn't true.

For the most part, Northrop-Grumman is a corporation like any other, meaning they will pull garbage like this and bother a smaller game developer over trademark related issues. I don't support this behavior in anyway, but unfortunately that is the state of business in most of the world.

Yet there are valid reasons for NG's continued existence and I'm sure many of their workers remember the legacy of Northrop and Grumman. Yes they make many systems the United States needs because one simple fact always remains true. Through use or obsolesce, old systems including aircraft, need to be replaced. Plus there are always new capabilities the US military (or foreign customers) hope to in order to counter new or existing threats. Technology is always advancing.

The defense industry in the United States has been consolidated too much for my liking, and I honestly don't have much respect for the higher-level management of NG or most major corporations, defense-related or otherwise, but you're completely in the wrong to disrespect those workers and engineers.

Yadayada.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd8wwMFmCeE&feature=related

For a start

[jannaspookie]

I find it interesting to come back to the 1C forums every now and then, and still see people talking/debating the Northrup Grumman issue. AFAIK, it isn't exactly against the law; it's just a matter of legal precedent from my understanding (and no game company wants to take the risk of legal action from a giant corporation like NG).

I'm sure some of you here would gladly debate what I've just said, but it really doesn't matter. Just wait for a Yorktown-class mod to be completed (two have already been started). Remember the P-61? We thought we'd never have the one of those for the same reason, but now there's a Black Widow mod that has a better 3D model than the one originally built for Pacific Fighters. Modders can (and are) filling the gaps 1C couldn't. I only wish I had the skill or knowledge because I'd make the Enterprise myself :)

[Asheshouse]

Just wait for a Yorktown-class mod to be completed (two have already been started). :)

Easy to start. -- Not so easy to finish. -- and my count is that 3 have been started :)
One thing I would love to see is for the US and IJN generic BB's to be removed from the game --- and replaced with something more authentic.
Pearl Harbour map with no authentic BB's -- I guess this is all down to the NG issue. :(

Ashe

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Remember the P-61? We thought we'd never have the one of those for the same reason, but now there's a Black Widow mod that has a better 3D model than the one originally built for Pacific Fighters.

Better? In which way? Better in wasting polygons? Its one of the worse excamples of modding to me. Of course you cannot see it yourself.
(in case, you are talking about his one: http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=19018.0)

[Juri_JS]

Could somebody tell me which ww2 aircraft that we don't have in the stock game are affected by the Grumman issue?

[dFrog]

the most important :
F4U Corsair later versions
F8F Bearcat
P-61 Black Widow (and F-15 Reporter)
SB2U Vindicator
TBF Avenger (flyable)

[HundertneunGustav]

Better? In which way? Better in wasting polygons? Its one of the worse excamples of modding to me. Of course you cannot see it yourself.
(in case, you are talking about his one: http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=19018.0)

that... or none.
your choice is...?
i see what i see. and it pleases my ignorant eyes :)

[Fighterace]

the most important :
F4U Corsair later versions
F8F Bearcat
P-61 Black Widow (and F-15 Reporter)
SB2U Vindicator
TBF Avenger (flyable)

F7F Tigercat
Birdcage F4U Corsair
B-29 Superfortress (flyable)

[koivis]

B-29 Superfortress (flyable)

All the aircraft listed are affected (Vought is owned by Northrop-Grumman today), except the B-29. It was a Boeing product, and has nothing to do with NG at all.

Also, Westinghouse Electric (jet engines, radars etc.) is now part of NG.

These companies are not affected either:
-Douglas (and McDonnell & later McDonnell-Douglas) is part of the current Boeing company.
-Same for North American Aircraft, now part of Boeing.
-Republic aircraft is long gone. First it was bought by Fairchild, afterwards it's been know variously as Fairchild-Dornier, M7 Aerospace and is now part of Israeli owned Elbit Systems (!)
-Everything which is now part of Lockheed Martin (Lockheed and Martin atleast, :rolleyes:)
-Curtiss-Wright is existence today also as its own.
-Consolidated, Vultee (and later after these two merged, Convair) belong to General Dynamics corp.

Seems that the European companies are a bit more gentle. Imagine if BAE Systems (pretty much every British company) or EADS did the same as NG did.

[Juri_JS]

Thanks for the clarification guys. Even without the aircraft affected by the Grumman issue there are more than enough other types that can be modelled. In my opinion the most important new US aircraft for the Pacific would be the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver. I never understood why it was omitted when Pacific Fighters was released.

[Xilon_x]

F7F Tigercat
Birdcage F4U Corsair
B-29 Superfortress (flyable)
and this? you ot remember this?
http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/showimage.php?id=12809

[NukeItFromOrbit]

Yadayada.......
For a start

You still haven't responded to any of my points. NG isn't going around starting wars, they're simply a corporation like any other, interested in business and making money. As I've said, they way they pushed around 1C here was completely wrong, but major companies fire similar trademark related lawsuits all the time. Yes it sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it. Now, if Ubisoft had given 1C some halfway decent support, this issue could have been worked out in a manner that would have allowed us to have all of these aircraft.

I don't care what you think of Northrop's CEOs or lawyers, but what's your problem with the average worker? As someone who works for a small firm manufacturing engine components, I'd be damned pleased if I ended up working for NG someday.

We can't keep flying B-52s and F-15s forever. There are many, many things in America's military due to be phased out in the coming years. Having such industry here in the United States sure beats having to import everything or eventually letting our military degrade to third-world status. I just wish there hadn't been so much consolidation over the years. It wasn't that long ago when McDonnell Douglas, Grumman, North American/Rockwell International, Vought, and Republic/Fairchild were all their own companies.

[Viking]

Don t worry about it!
Your nick tells me that you can not, will never ever even try to understand.
Take your paycheck from the military industrial complex and buy some Big-Mac or KFC or what ever and sit down in front of CNN to educate yourself some more. Be happy!

Viking

[NukeItFromOrbit]

Actually I got my title from the film Aliens. Regardless, you need to get these misconceptions out of your head, you sound like some aging hippie here in the US would. You're the one not trying to understand why there this need exists for such specialized contractors in this day and age. Rather you dismiss them all as evil war profiteers or some nonsense.

I recognize the flaws and shortcomings of these companies, but I understand the need for them, and take pride in my work.

As somebody who probably has an interest in aviation I'm sure you've read about engineers like Kelly Johnson and Jack Northrop. Regardless of you think of the current CEOs and bosses of these companies, surely pioneers like them were worthy of some respect.

[HundertneunGustav]

interest in aviation? well i guess many of us have red a page or two about the men behind the machines.
but this modern-age moneymaking scheisse is awful.

about not flying eagles forever... buy a bunch of Su-35ers instead of a single X-35.

how about this though:
recussitate Reginald Mitchell and take that man for a spin in a restored Merlin 60 or somesuch series Spitfire. Put him in a Griffon spitfire if you find one.
What will he say? How will he react?

Bring Mister Otto back for a few days (yea the guy that played a BIG role in engine creation and design) , and show him what "explosive engines" have become...
how would he react? what would he think of the evolution, the impact of the machine? cars all over the world, ship engines, Bomber engines, Jet engines, modern cars and trucks?

Those are the men behind the creations, and i bet if they found out that _big_ royalties have to be paid every time a toy is made "off a real world machine", they would turn over in their graves.
Especially Mister Mitchell... he worked till he could no more... not asking for fortune, not asking for fame...

CEOs, lawyers, banks, people amassing and herding money... just because they CAN...
whose respect do they earn? or deserve?

Financial enthusiasts vs aviation enthusiasts... no agreement possible.
Money DOES rule the world.

and all that is needed for evil to succeed, is for aviation enthusiasts to do nothing.

? Ummmmmm...

[X32Wright]

AS Xilon posted there would be no chance of any 1C Maddox officially affiliated entity would make any 'derivatives' of any NG owned trademark and copyright.

What most people didn't know is that NG asked for (and was paid) more than the development costs of the whole Il-2 series up to that point. SO you can see why this left a very bad after taste hence no 'American planes' from there after specially NG owned and legacy planes.

[ElAurens]

So get modders to do it, call the thing the Grumman Gaylord and give it the crappiest FM ever.

Oleg already did that, it's called the F6F.

[Viking]

@ #47
Thank you for taking your time posting.

Viking

[HundertneunGustav]

Oleg already did that, it's called the F6F.
Revenge....!
:D
Never... NEVER try to outsmart a Russian Businessman.
They always find a way to *** you :D

[WTE_Galway]

It's interesting a few people seem to feel NG could be approached to be reasonable on this matter or actually care about public relations.

NG is not a "nice" corporation. Here is a list of just a few of the devious things they have been up to in recent years ...



http://www.wttlonline.com/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/id/27283
Northrop Grumman Corporation, the giant defense contractor, has reach a consent decree with
State’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) under which it will pay $10 million in
fines and $5 million for remedial actions to resolve charges that it committed 110 violations of
defense trade controls, including the export to Russia of source code for components in Air
Force One, the president’s plane.




http://www.crocodyl.org/wiki/northrop_grumman

The first major scandals in Northrop Grumman’s history came in the early 1970s, when the company, then known as Northrop Corp., was embroiled in controversies over illegal campaign contributions to Richard Nixon’s reelection campaign by company chairman Thomas Jones as well as some $30 million in bribes paid to foreign governments to win orders for fighter jets. A few years later, there were revelations that the company regularly entertained Pentagon officials and members of Congress at a hunting lodge on the eastern shore of Maryland. During the 1980s, Northrop was the subject of numerous investigations relating to alleged mismanagement during its work on the MX Missile and the B-2 Stealth bomber.

In 1989, Northrop was indicted on criminal charges of falsifying test results on cruise missiles for the Air Force and Harrier jets for the Marine Corps. Just as the trial in the case was about to begin in 1990, the company agreed to plead guilty to 34 fraud charges and pay a fine of $17 million. Under the plea agreement, federal prosecutors agreed to end the investigations relating to the MX and the B-2. However, the company agreed in 1992 to pay $4.2 million to settle a whistleblower lawsuit—brought without the involvement of the Justice Department—alleging that the company padded its invoices on MX missile guidance system work.

Grumman Corp., acquired by Northrop in 1994, brought with it a history of controversies on issues such as cost overruns in the production of F-14 Tomcat fighters for the Navy, production of defective municipal buses by its Flxible division (sold in 1983) and a bribery scandal involving Iran and Japan.

In 2000 Northrop Grumman paid $1.4 million to settle a whistleblower case alleging that the company overcharged the Air Force for B-2 bomber instruction and repair manuals. In a case inherited through the acquisition of TRW, Northrop Grumman agreed in 2003 to pay $111 million to settle claims that TRW overcharged the Pentagon for work on several space electronics programs in the early 1990s. Also in 2003, Northrop Grumman agreed to pay a total of $80 million to settle two False Claims Act cases, one involving work by Newport News Shipbuilding before Northrop acquired it in 2001 and the other involving the delivery of allegedly defective aerial target drones.

In 2004, Northrop settled for $1.8 million the remaining individual whistleblower case from the late 1980s involving cruise missiles. The following year it paid $62 million to settle the remaining claims relating to overcharging on the B-2 bomber program.

The false claims allegations continue. In March 2008 a whistleblower brought a lawsuit charging that Northrop Grumman’s Melbourne division with hundreds of millions of dollars of overcharges relating to the Joint STARS radar aircraft program.

Not all of Northrop’s performance problems have been related to overcharging. Soon after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the company’s Vinnell Corp. subsidiary (acquired as part of the purchase of TRW in 2002) was awarded a $48 million contract “to train the nucleus of a new Iraqi army.” It botched the job so badly that the Jordanian Army had to be brought in to take over.


Some 17 percent of Northrop Grumman’s 122,000 employees are covered by collective bargaining agreements. Some of the most contentious labor relations have been at the company’s shipbuilding operations. Northrop inherited these relationships when it acquired Litton Industries and Newport News Shipbuilding in 2001.

There had been a bitter dispute dating back to the early 1990s between Avondale Industries and the New Orleans Metal Trades Council, a group of eight unions which had won a representation election for 5,000 workers. Avondale fought the unions, which in turn launched a major corporate campaign against the company. The confrontation deescalated after Litton took over Avondale in 1999 and signed a neutrality agreement with the unions. In 2002, with Litton now part of Northrop Grumman, the dispute was finally settled.


In 2007 it was reported that guest workers from India employed by Signal International, a Northrop Grumman subcontractor in Pascagoula, were being held against their will.

[WTE_Galway]

All the aircraft listed are affected (Vought is owned by Northrop-Grumman today), except the B-29. It was a Boeing product, and has nothing to do with NG at all.


There have been ongoing rumors in the trade of a potential Boeing/NG merger and speculation as to whether such a merger would be blocked in the US courts.


However that is beside the point. At the time of the original NG copyright farce the development of ALL unfinished American planes and ships was stopped, presumably due to legal advise about the risk that other US aircraft manufacturers may follow the NG precedent.

For a period of several years after the ludicrous NG claim it looked like any new IL2 addons would only be officially available outside the US as well.

[Fighterace]

There have been ongoing rumors in the trade of a potential Boeing/NG merger and speculation as to whether such a merger would be blocked in the US courts.


However that is beside the point. At the time of the original NG copyright farce the development of ALL unfinished American planes and ships was stopped, presumably due to legal advise about the risk that other US aircraft manufacturers may follow the NG precedent.

For a period of several years after the ludicrous NG claim it looked like any new IL2 addons would only be officially available outside the US as well.

So...there might be some light at the end of the tunnel?!?!

[Igo kyu]

So...there might be some light at the end of the tunnel?!?!
Nah, it's the headlight of a train.

If Boeing merges with NG, it could be Boeing planes become no-go too.

[Fighterace]

Well, that sucks :(

[Igo kyu]

Well, that sucks :(
It would if it happens.

It's a maybe. The real world might eventually go either way. Nobody knows.

[Fighterace]

Maybe Boeing might be more lenient than NG?

[tk471138]

You can't blame them for wanting compensation for using their creations.

O REALLY ?? so i guess when an artist draws something, the artist has to pay what ever they drew off??? i guess all those artists who specialize in aircraft have to pay a fortune to the companies those aircraft...

seriously the OP is right these are stupid rules CREATED by lawyers to give their lawyer buddies more jobs (some lawyers and attorneys are on record saying this).....i dont see why a russian company has to follow these rules if i was them i would say F U americans....people will still be able to get this game...digital download or simply order it online....i mean its not like they will send in us troops or go to war over this...i guess i should follow all the laws of other countries too...

[tk471138]

Northrop-Grumman took legal action against Ubisoft over the unlicensed use of trademarks they own (specifically, "Grumman") on the Pacific Fighters box and packaging. This legal action was perfectly justified.

UbiSoft and Maddox games jointly settled out of court with Northrop-Grumman. However, Ubisoft provided very bad legal assistance to Oleg, regardless of what he has been led to believe and has said. It is obvious his limited english and complete unfamiliarity with the American legal system were both taken advantage of.

The settlement covered the unauthorized use of a Northrop-Grumman trademark. Perfectly reasonable.

Northrop-Grumman, however, took advantage of the situation to also advance their demands for licensing fees to depict WWII era material. This has no legal basis, despite what they may claim. This has been established in court.

Despite this, as they had Ubisoft and Maddox Games at their mercy, Northrop-Grumman also legally bound them to pay exhorbant licensing fees to use any aircraft (or other material) that Northrop-Grumman claimed intellectual ownership of. Ubisoft's legal representation to Oleg presented the situation inaccurately, convincing Oleg that he had no choice or hope but to accept their demands. Regardless of the previous legal veracity of their claims, Northrop-Grumman now DOES have the legal right to demand licensing from Oleg.

The final insult was that Ubisoft, who commited the original infringement (as they are responsible for product packaging, and thus the infringing text on the box), made Oleg pay Northrop-Grumman the settlement.

Heroes of the Pacific (the creators of which, IRGurus, I spoke to personally) and Blazing Aces both feature various 'disputed' aircraft because Ubisoft didn't screw up the box on those and because those developers happened to speak fluent English and thus could fend of Northrop-Grummans baseless claims. N-G did approach IRGurus (who made Heroes), but was rebuffed and did not make further demands.

The settlement also stipulated that the matter not be discussed publicly (since it obviously would show the true colors of two out of three parties involved), which is why any and all threads that bring this matter up are deleted.

The only group who benefitted were the lawyers of a multi-billion dollar defense contractor. A multi-million dollar global game publisher sidestepped the blame and the fine. Ultimately, a dedicated Russian development studio, many of those working on a project for them at the time, those peoples' immediate families, the project's fans, and legal precedent all suffered.

I know. I built the P-61. Kami had a finished B-29 interior. An underway TBF cockpit and a completely finished Yorktown carrier were yanked. Other content that was planned, in progress, or even finished--some of it expensive--was discarded. Some artists who had devoted extraordinary time and made significant personal sacrifices to contribute to Pacific Fighters were never compensated and almost didn't even get acknowledged.

All of which Northrop-Grumman and Ubisoft have demanded be kept secret.

I, however, am not going to take this anymore. This entire post will be permanently saved to another location. I will link to it whenever the subject is broached. If I am banned, I will make sure it is publicly known here that this is why.

Oleg was taken advantage of in a horrible way, by those who stood to lose nothing and who had no support for their demands. We owe him our efforts to correct that.

technically if oleg was misled in to signing a contract...or if he didnt understand the contract he was signing its null and void....

he should trash the contract....forget what some retarded greedy american company says...i know i could care less and I AM american....im certainly not going to let some company dictate the terms of my life and my freedom....

[tk471138]

Work for evil? I don't know whose lies you have been buying but that simply isn't true.

For the most part, Northrop-Grumman is a corporation like any other, meaning they will pull garbage like this and bother a smaller game developer over trademark related issues. I don't support this behavior in anyway, but unfortunately that is the state of business in most of the world.

Yet there are valid reasons for NG's continued existence and I'm sure many of their workers remember the legacy of Northrop and Grumman. Yes they make many systems the United States needs because one simple fact always remains true. Through use or obsolesce, old systems including aircraft, need to be replaced. Plus there are always new capabilities the US military (or foreign customers) hope to in order to counter new or existing threats. Technology is always advancing.

The defense industry in the United States has been consolidated too much for my liking, and I honestly don't have much respect for the higher-level management of NG or most major corporations, defense-related or otherwise, but you're completely in the wrong to disrespect those workers and engineers.

NG is part of the military industrial complex ( you know the same thing that president Roosevelt warned us about) thus its evil......

[tk471138]

You still haven't responded to any of my points. NG isn't going around starting wars, they're simply a corporation like any other, interested in business and making money. As I've said, they way they pushed around 1C here was completely wrong, but major companies fire similar trademark related lawsuits all the time. Yes it sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it. Now, if Ubisoft had given 1C some halfway decent support, this issue could have been worked out in a manner that would have allowed us to have all of these aircraft.

I don't care what you think of Northrop's CEOs or lawyers, but what's your problem with the average worker? As someone who works for a small firm manufacturing engine components, I'd be damned pleased if I ended up working for NG someday.

We can't keep flying B-52s and F-15s forever. There are many, many things in America's military due to be phased out in the coming years. Having such industry here in the United States sure beats having to import everything or eventually letting our military degrade to third-world status. I just wish there hadn't been so much consolidation over the years. It wasn't that long ago when McDonnell Douglas, Grumman, North American/Rockwell International, Vought, and Republic/Fairchild were all their own companies.


you are nieve clearly you didnt listen to the president (which a user kindly linked up for you)

he spoke of these corporations INFLUENCING policy which they DO...its that easy guy...their business is war...war is evil...

[CWMV]

Don't be silly, war and conflict are the engine of human technological and societal evolution.
However detestable it may be (believe me, no one knows this better than I), it is necessary and natural for man to have conflict. It is the way of the natural world.
Now don't be mad that some are better at it than others.

[Viking]

And now we see CoD turning east towards Moscow. Will it ever turn west again?
I for one think not.

Viking

[Igo kyu]

i guess i should follow all the laws of other countries too...
That's the plan. Copyright first, the rest to follow. Heard of ACTA?

[proton45]

And now we see CoD turning east towards Moscow. Will it ever turn west again?
I for one think not.

Viking

somebody's bored...lol

[Viking]

somebody's bored...lol

No, I simply cannot see how CoD is to expand to theaters of war in the Pacific etc if it is impossible to make images of the historical hardware.

So now we will most probably get Moscow and East front first and then....?

[tk471138]

That's the plan. Copyright first, the rest to follow. Heard of ACTA?

sorry international law does not apply to me....the constitution apply to me not some garbage treaty that the federal government signs it self into...i could care less for international law that seeks to undermine the constitutional rights of the citizens of the united states and natural rights of those in the rest of the world...no one is getting hurt in the action of IL2 being able to use certain planes...they are pieces of ART...how about every time you take a picture a certain object should you now owe the creator....say you are at a plane show, and you take a picture of a certain plane...should you now owe the manufacture money...and even then some ridiculous amount....

pretty soon every time you upload on you tube some clip of some tv show or music its going to be taken down or even worse you will be arrested and given some crazy fine....thats where this is headed...

[Asheshouse]

I believe that the original problem was not the creation of an "artwork" representing an NG aircraft, it was the use of the Grumman name on the box artwork without permission which caused the principal problem.

TBM-3 Avenger --- ok

Grumman Avenger --- not ok



Whatever the original reasons it was all overtaken by a separate wide ranging agreement which went way beyond normal copyright protection laws.

[tk471138]

I believe that the original problem was not the creation of an "artwork" representing an NG aircraft, it was the use of the Grumman name on the box artwork without permission which caused the principal problem.

TBM-3 Avenger --- ok

Grumman Avenger --- not ok



Whatever the original reasons it was all overtaken by a separate wide ranging agreement which went way beyond normal copyright protection laws.

first off that is BS (im not saying you are wrong, but im saying grumman was wrong)...the REASON they used the name grumman in the name of the aircraft could be seen as given credit where credit is due...i mean grumman avenger is a name of a thing...so why not just use the whole name...im pretty sure no one was going to buy the game cuz the name grumman was on the box...its not like they were saying they had the backing of grumman they were simply stating the name of the plane and its manufacture....i guess next time i write a report and i include the company's name who makes a product i should have to pay them big bucks....at least this is where this crap is going....

thats like using someones full name and them getting mad at you for it....

these corporations are FICTIONAL entities that exist ONLY on paper...its the PEOPLE who are real...its the people that matter...not some corporations, who think they are people (look at politicians who say things like, "corporations are people too" and so on...) human beings have rights (endowed by their creator) corporations do not since they are created by man...


seriously people wake up stop being slaves to corporations and their whims...

[Igo kyu]

sorry international law does not apply to me.
Good luck with that, you'll need it.

So far it's mainly people being extradited TO the USA for breaking USAian laws while in their own country, but if you think your government can make that process one-way only AND get other governments to go along with that, you're not living in the real world.

[Fighterace]

Whatelse was planned for Pacific Fighters if NG hadnt put a restriction on certain things?

[Viking]

Its a bit old, spring this year, but the last guy in the video conects back to my first post so I find it interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgIzyXf61UU&feature=relmfu

Viking

[tk471138]

Good luck with that, you'll need it.

So far it's mainly people being extradited TO the USA for breaking USAian laws while in their own country, but if you think your government can make that process one-way only AND get other governments to go along with that, you're not living in the real world.

news flash you fool the constitution applies to me (and the constitution of your country applies to you)...just cuz international law says one thing if it infringes on my constitutional rights its null and void...
its like if the UN tried to make a law that bans guns...it wont apply to me since the second amendment protects that right from ANY infringement...the UN and world governing bodies has NO authority over me or any one else who has dignity...and loves personal freedom...

in regard to that Rt video,

that is your military industrial complex that even president Eisenhower (a military man himself) warned us about...and it looks like his warning went unheeded by the majority of foolish americans who have no idea about what a free society is...

All those in that RT video are nothing but scum...i do not envy those corporations making their record profits through death and destruction, (the death and destruction of brown people) hopefully they come face to face with the devil when the american people finally wake up and dispatch those who have destroyed the republic...


then you have this mildly fat woman "im a pacifist and a realist..." no you are just a hypocrite...what a joke rofl all these americans sitting here..."we are there to help" my god...it shows perfectly how stupid the average american is (im american i see this crap on a daily basis) the world is laughing at us in this video...so sad...remember we kill your women and children we bomb wedding parties killing hundreds to take out one target, but remember we are here to help...WHAT A JOKE..

[Krt_Bong]

I really don't think NG can do a damn thing if TD was to include the contentious aircraft in a patch as long as there is no company name attached, and if they have something to say TD can basically tell them to Feck Off. At any rate the modders will make them and again NG cannot do anything to stop them it's art and it's free. If I want to stand on the street corner and hand out crude crayon drawings of a Grumman Plane with the name on the bottom and some representative of the company tries to stop me I can tell them the same thing and they wouldn't be able to do a damn thing, because they won't want the publicity and they know the general public and all the aviation lovers would crucify them in the media. It's the implied threat of lawsuit followed by an out of court settlement that they are depending on, since most small company's would fold when faced by a multi-billion dollar corporation because they think they can't win. Screw them, I'll take 2 P-61's with a side of Avenger please!

[csThor]

Quit your wishful thinking, Krt_Bong. There is a contract between 1C and NG in place which does prevent the official inclusion of any further NG-related objects without considerable cash input. And since TD is sanctioned by the developer we're under that official umbrella.

Let it go folks, that horse is dead and decayed. No chance of resuscitation. :cool:

[K_Freddie]

You can always place a MOD that's compatible with TDs stuff... you know.
Make the tail of the NG slightly different and they have no copyright case..

It's your IP.
;)

[Fighterace]

I really don't think NG can do a damn thing if TD was to include the contentious aircraft in a patch as long as there is no company name attached, and if they have something to say TD can basically tell them to Feck Off. At any rate the modders will make them and again NG cannot do anything to stop them it's art and it's free. If I want to stand on the street corner and hand out crude crayon drawings of a Grumman Plane with the name on the bottom and some representative of the company tries to stop me I can tell them the same thing and they wouldn't be able to do a damn thing, because they won't want the publicity and they know the general public and all the aviation lovers would crucify them in the media. It's the implied threat of lawsuit followed by an out of court settlement that they are depending on, since most small company's would fold when faced by a multi-billion dollar corporation because they think they can't win. Screw them, I'll take 2 P-61's with a side of Avenger please!

With a large F7F to wash it down with :)

[tk471138]

Quit your wishful thinking, Krt_Bong. There is a contract between 1C and NG in place which does prevent the official inclusion of any further NG-related objects without considerable cash input. And since TD is sanctioned by the developer we're under that official umbrella.

Let it go folks, that horse is dead and decayed. No chance of resuscitation. :cool:



who cares governments always go back on contracts they sign...so why not 1c...at least in this case the 1c would have justification to break their contract and no one is hurt in any way as a result...i would really like to see that contract and to understand why the developers signed it...i dont know why any one would tie their hands like this....as some others have stated i dont think they knew exactly what they were getting into...and if the terms of the contract were misrepresented by NG or their lawyers then it is all but null and void, and their signatures on the contract are meaningless...

[SaQSoN]

Oh, you guys are so smart and quick to find a solution to other man problems! But I wonder, would you be so, if you personally, or someone, who depends and trust in you would be threatened by 6-digits law suit? Would you be so quick in jumping to a conclusions without even trying to find out more info about the situation in that case? And believe me, all info is here, on this forum, repeated gazillion times. For you, smart kids, I will repeat it again.

Fact 1: NG claims copyright not only for it's name, or names of it's products, but also on the external appearance of their products. This claim exclude only the work of arts (paintings and sculptures) and photography. Which means, if you want to produce a toy, film a movie, or create a computer game with something, which looks like NG product, you have to obtain their permission in the form of a license agreement. Which usually comes for a fee.
You may find this info on NG site, if you look carefully. It was also posted on this forum, may be even in this thread.

Fact 2: in year 2004, about a week before planned start of the Pacific Fighters title sales, Ubi was approached by NG lawyers with a threat of a lawsuit, demanding license fees for using images of NG products, according to the 1.
So, basically, Ubi had a choice to either stop US sales of the product and get themselves into an expensive lawsuit, or pay a certain amount and settle. In this situation they decided, the second variant would be more acceptable for them. Not to mention, that any software publisher standard contract states, that all expenses, related to copyrights infringement found in the product are covered by product developer.

Therefore, fact 3: 1C paid 6-digit sum to NG as a license fees and signed contract with NG and Ubi, which prohibits use of any images of NG products in the IL-2 series, without permission and license from NG, no matter if this images are included in free or paid add-ons.

Fact 4: a part of agreement between DT and 1C is a prohibition to use any images of NG products in DT creations, related to the IL-2 series.

PERIOD

[Fighterace]

who cares governments always go back on contracts they sign...so why not 1c...at least in this case the 1c would have justification to break their contract and no one is hurt in any way as a result...i would really like to see that contract and to understand why the developers signed it...i dont know why any one would tie their hands like this....as some others have stated i dont think they knew exactly what they were getting into...and if the terms of the contract were misrepresented by NG or their lawyers then it is all but null and void, and their signatures on the contract are meaningless...

Come on TD and IC......Make a stand and fight it!!!!

If you guys can remove these restrictions, TD can potential make the best flight sim ever.

[SaQSoN]

Come on TD and IC......Make a stand and fight it!!!!

DT will be glad to, as soon, as you pay all legal fees. Are you an eccentric billionaire by a chance?

[Fighterace]

DT will be glad to, as soon, as you pay all legal fees. Are you an eccentric billionaire by a chance?

I wish I was...

[Asheshouse]

Therefore, fact 3: 1C paid 6-digit sum to NG as a license fees and signed contract with NG and Ubi, which prohibits use of any images of NG products in the IL-2 series, without permission and license from NG, no matter if this images are included in free or paid add-ons.

Fact 4: a part of agreement between DT and 1C is a prohibition to use any images of NG products in DT creations, related to the IL-2 series.

NG's position was always very dubious in law, even in US law, but the above two facts seem to over rule normal copyright limitations, unless it is argued that the agreement (fact 3) was made under duress.

A significant legal point against NG's position is that copyright was originally only for a duration of 28 years (say 1973 for WWII stuff). Current law extends the period but does not apply to things which had already gone into the public domain.

Copyright law should not have applied to warships, which were designed by the Navy Board, not NG's predecessor companies, but under fact three NG seeks to define ships built by their companies as their "products". They were not. The navy board could instruct any yard to build them without paying any royalties to NG companies.

[SaQSoN]

No matter, how dubious NG position in this question is, the only way to prove, they are wrong and set clear this issue is to take NG to court (or, at least, threated them to do so). Which would require quite noticeable fees to the lawyers. ATM neither Ubi, or 1C are willing to invest into resolving this issue. So, unless someone is willing to take this expenses and all other related hustle on him/herself, any further discussion of the NG issue is pointless.

Which concludes that as follows: there will be no NG products included into official add-ons whatsoever.

[Krt_Bong]

It might be wishful thinking but there are already some mod Models of some of these planes and though they might not be Official it doesn't mean we can't get them and install them in our game and I think there is nothing NG could do about it. If as you say it was signed and contracted well then they have my sympathy because I fully believe UBI could have rebuffed them but they let Oleg swing in the wind instead. I'm just venting, I know that there are games out there that have quasi representations of things that are not licensed, cars specifically where some small detail is changed like the shape of a tail light but it is rather obvious that it is supposed to represent say a Corvette but instead they call it a Chivy Cheetah and I realize that they didn't want to pay to have it, it is after all just an animated picture. It might be a pointless argument but that never stopped us from having arguments before in internet forums we just like to give some invective on the ridiculousness of it all and dream of sticking it to the big evil corporation, just sayin'

[norulz]

I would eliminate NG products from the game. I would put german planes in their place and if a kid asks why? I would tell him that this is the history. Without blinking. This should have been done in that week before release of PF. Sure people would have been unhappy but this way the krappola damaged NG big time on the long run.

[ElAurens]

Nothing we do could hurt NG.

NOTHING.

Methinks you wildly overestimate the importance of gamers in the great scheme of things.

A "six figure" amount to NG is mere pocket change, unlike what it is to Maddox Games.

They wanted to set a precedent, and they selected the weakest kid on the block to pick a fight with. Now they can hold IL2 up as an example to the really big kids, EA, Sony, etc... and say, see, pay us the royalty or you end up like those Russians did. And the big console game makers just write a check and move along because they are swimming in money compared to a PC devloper like Maddox Games.

[HarryM]

I guess we're lucky that we got as many Wildcat and Hellcat variants as we did in the original release. Pity about a flyable TBF and Enterprise/Hornet CV's.

[WTE_Galway]

It might be wishful thinking but there are already some mod Models of some of these planes and though they might not be Official it doesn't mean we can't get them and install them in our game and I think there is nothing NG could do about it.

The number one rule for lawyers is litigate the person with the best ability to pay.

As the modders and individual users generally have no money and no relevant insurance no legal action will occur unless somehow UBI/Maddox can be held responsible or can be shown to be endorsing or encouraging the mods ... in which case rest assured the NG lawyers will spring into action and hit up UBI/Maddox for more money. Its not worth NGs time to bother with mod creators or individual users, they are small fry.

If as you say it was signed and contracted well then they have my sympathy because I fully believe UBI could have rebuffed them but they let Oleg swing in the wind instead.

If you read up what actually happened, NG waited until one week before the global release of Pacific Fighters to threaten an injunction preventing release of the game until the case could be heard by some California Court maybe a year or two down the track. Whilst NG seems to have had minimal legal grounds for their claims rebuffing them probably would have meant a large delay in the release of Pacific Fighters.

[nearmiss]

Northrop-Grumman took legal action against Ubisoft over the unlicensed use of trademarks they own (specifically, "Grumman") on the Pacific Fighters box and packaging. This legal action was perfectly justified.

UbiSoft and Maddox games jointly settled out of court with Northrop-Grumman. However, Ubisoft provided very bad legal assistance to Oleg, regardless of what he has been led to believe and has said. It is obvious his limited english and complete unfamiliarity with the American legal system were both taken advantage of.

The settlement covered the unauthorized use of a Northrop-Grumman trademark. Perfectly reasonable.

Northrop-Grumman, however, took advantage of the situation to also advance their demands for licensing fees to depict WWII era material. This has no legal basis, despite what they may claim. This has been established in court.

Despite this, as they had Ubisoft and Maddox Games at their mercy, Northrop-Grumman also legally bound them to pay exhorbant licensing fees to use any aircraft (or other material) that Northrop-Grumman claimed intellectual ownership of. Ubisoft's legal representation to Oleg presented the situation inaccurately, convincing Oleg that he had no choice or hope but to accept their demands. Regardless of the previous legal veracity of their claims, Northrop-Grumman now DOES have the legal right to demand licensing from Oleg.

The final insult was that Ubisoft, who commited the original infringement (as they are responsible for product packaging, and thus the infringing text on the box), made Oleg pay Northrop-Grumman the settlement.

Heroes of the Pacific (the creators of which, IRGurus, I spoke to personally) and Blazing Aces both feature various 'disputed' aircraft because Ubisoft didn't screw up the box on those and because those developers happened to speak fluent English and thus could fend of Northrop-Grummans baseless claims. N-G did approach IRGurus (who made Heroes), but was rebuffed and did not make further demands.

The settlement also stipulated that the matter not be discussed publicly (since it obviously would show the true colors of two out of three parties involved), which is why any and all threads that bring this matter up are deleted.

The only group who benefitted were the lawyers of a multi-billion dollar defense contractor. A multi-million dollar global game publisher sidestepped the blame and the fine. Ultimately, a dedicated Russian development studio, many of those working on a project for them at the time, those peoples' immediate families, the project's fans, and legal precedent all suffered.

I know. I built the P-61. Kami had a finished B-29 interior. An underway TBF cockpit and a completely finished Yorktown carrier were yanked. Other content that was planned, in progress, or even finished--some of it expensive--was discarded. Some artists who had devoted extraordinary time and made significant personal sacrifices to contribute to Pacific Fighters were never compensated and almost didn't even get acknowledged.

All of which Northrop-Grumman and Ubisoft have demanded be kept secret.

I, however, am not going to take this anymore. This entire post will be permanently saved to another location. I will link to it whenever the subject is broached. If I am banned, I will make sure it is publicly known here that this is why.

Oleg was taken advantage of in a horrible way, by those who stood to lose nothing and who had no support for their demands. We owe him our efforts to correct that.

This is funny what do you expect to accomplish. People no longer react to unfairness or damages to other persons. They just don't give a whit. You can view all manner of unfairness and massacre on TV and it doesn't move people to action. There was a time when public opinion meant something. That is pretty a non-issue today. The politicians, government, and courts do what they want to do for the most part.

[Adhocrat]

I think the Il-2 community should take a stand. Join me in boycotting all Northrop-Grumman products. If ever you're procuring aircraft for your nation's armed forces, buy Boeing or BAe or Airbus Militarie or Sukhoi instead. Who's with me?

[Viking]

I think the Il-2 community should take a stand. Join me in boycotting all Northrop-Grumman products. If ever you're procuring aircraft for your nation's armed forces, buy Boeing or BAe or Airbus Militarie or Sukhoi instead. Who's with me?

At least the free world outside the Nato is planing in something like that. But it will be some time before they see the result as the papercurrecy is still surprisingly strong.
Wait!
Viking

[tk471138]

listen to all the slaves talking about "legal" points...and needing courts to made decisions for them seriously....why would a company in russia even care what a company in the usa says...i mean is the us going to send in special forces to get these guys to go to court?? i mean if a russian company told a us company they could not use their stuff, you think the us company would care....seriously how does one compel someone in a foreign SOVEREIGN nation to come to their court...i know i wouldnt go to a french court a british court or any other court...they would have to kill me first...(and that is after i killed a few of them in the process of trying) sure let them sue see how far they get....they try and extradite you...defend your self and if that means using violence then so be it...



second i support violent revolution against the us govt and the western establishment...you want to hurt NG use violence...that is the ONLY way....

[SaQSoN]

Oh, boy... :rolleyes:

[ElAurens]

Some folks are truely clueless.

I think it's time for a lock on this thread actually.

[Feathered_IV]

listen to all the slaves talking about "legal" points...and needing courts to made decisions for them seriously....why would a company in russia even care what a company in the usa says...i mean is the us going to send in special forces to get these guys to go to court?? i mean if a russian company told a us company they could not use their stuff, you think the us company would care....seriously how does one compel someone in a foreign SOVEREIGN nation to come to their court...i know i wouldnt go to a french court a british court or any other court...they would have to kill me first...(and that is after i killed a few of them in the process of trying) sure let them sue see how far they get....they try and extradite you...defend your self and if that means using violence then so be it...



second i support violent revolution against the us govt and the western establishment...you want to hurt NG use violence...that is the ONLY way....

Oh you fierce internet warrior. :rolleyes:

[Viking]

Some folks are truely clueless.

I think it's time for a lock on this thread actually.


As soon as the debate goes the "wrong" way team America wants censorship.
Today's simmers are tomorrows decision makers!
Viking

[ElAurens]

:rolleyes:

We are talking about a video game here, and you are making a political statement. Better read the rules.