Is there any chance that 'realistic' looking smoke can be added in a future update?

[Mysticpuma]

I'm just wondering if there could be a small update in one of the next patches that just gives a smoother rendition of smoke, instead of the current 2-D sprite effect that looks like straight lines when you pass through it?

Currently there are 'many' modifications that give different smoke effects and while I understand some are too intensive (and over the top), it does appear that the actual smoke trail effect has been mastered.

Is it at-all possible that a re-working of this that is seen to be suitable for the 'Vanilla' game could be added, just to make the smoke seem realistic?

Crossing my fingers, cheers, MP

[pupo162]

could you please psot a picture of waht you have in mind?

to be fair the il2 stock sprite is indeed horrible when crossing it, but it looks good from distance, on the other hand mods i have tried usually look ugly and overdone from distance, and kind of nice when crossing.

[Mysticpuma]

Hopefully something like this so the Smoke is not too thick, and the fire is a little more 'firey'?

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7704/09102010122013.jpg

[Romanator21]

Frankly, I'm not so sure I like those effects. I wouldn't want a big hit to performance either (not everyone can afford a monster rig).

Unfortunately, that might be hard to toggle such an effect based on user preference. Some totally new system would have to be developed that is both better looking and well optimized.

I don't know if it's the best use of DT's time, but they've surprised us before ;)

[Mysticpuma]

Just noticed your Avatar is the picture I took of me and Oleg (can't blame you for cutting me off it!).

The smoke effects really don't make a huge hit on FPS as it is still a 2D sprite, just remapped and modelled to look more authentic. The flame could be toned down a bit but it really is a case that it adds so-much to the immersion especially with Machines now having to be powerful enough to run CloD!

Check out this video to see what difference the smoke and flame effects make to the 10-year-old game engine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAf81IJaMaU

Cheers, MP

[SaQSoN]

JCheck out this video to see what difference the smoke and flame effects make to the 10-year-old game engine!

This video is post-processed (all kinds of blur added), so it doesn't show how actually those smokes look in game. The default smokes won't look far different, should a video with them post-processed in the same way, as this one.

[vpmedia]

the video was recorded with a mobile phone not post processed

here are modern effects for the game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7NfN_1T3Lg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM7wuUUC6i8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKeEK34EC0&feature=related

check the other vids too by socorrista22198 + HolyGrail & Potenz

[Romanator21]

Check out this video to see what difference the smoke and flame effects make to the 10-year-old game engine!


To be honest, some of the effects look over done, to me anyway. The video was either post-processed, or shot with a camera, so it's not a completely fair comparison.

here are modern effects for the game

Some aspects of these were highly over-done as well, including the shockwave effect of bomb hits, napalm explosion, and hit flashes. I do like that they figured out how to have the gear lower when the hydraulics are damaged. I'm not sure I liked the mid-air explosions (looks like Death Star blowing up). The fuel truck explosion looked very nice, but honestly looks a bit flat and doesn't fit in with the other effects.

The big issue to me is that those updates are going to grind my computer to a halt whenever a big boom happens :-)

Just noticed your Avatar is the picture I took of me and Oleg (can't blame you for cutting me off it!).

I didn't make the avatar, I just found it. I don't even know who the real author is :confused:

[vpmedia]

Romanator21, youre free to do better effects ;)

[Romanator21]

I knew you would say that.

Trust me, I'm not criticizing them or saying they're bad. I just don't think I prefer them over the stock effects. That's all. No insults were meant.

EDIT - besides, I can have an opinion. Do I have to paint some cubist art before I say I don't like Picasso's stuff? Do I have to be a programmer to say that I don't like Windows XP?

The biggest issue for me is:

1) performance
2) [since I'm OCD] effects that match / aren't a collection of various works

[Mysticpuma]

Hi chaps, the discussion isn't really about how overdone the effects are, as these are created by(some highly talented) modders.

What I hope is that TD will consider revising these effects so that they are acceptable to users, i.e, not frame-rate killers, but that they enhance the current 2D striped sprite of smoke and 'bubble' of flame.

The above examples really don't cripple frame-rates as they are just re-adjusted effects files, but if TD could go through a quality control version to guarantee that there is a bare minimum of FPS reduction, surely the enhancements far out way a 2-3 FPS that it would make?

Currently we are at the point where PC's have advanced so much since this came out that it should now be possible to enhance the 2D sprite smoke to make it look more authentic, as shown in the videos above (and the one I posted was shot on his mobile, but VPMedia's are examples that could be referenced from).

I just hope that TD will consider this advancement in the visual effects as, if you consider what can be done in the videos shown above already, with a TD quality control, surely smooth FPS friendly fire and effects are more than possible now?

Opinions very much welcome on the examples shown, but also on the request for realistic looking smoke and fire effects that are evidently more than possible?

Cheers, MP

[pupo162]

as i tought, i didnt miss much.

all the effects psoted seem to be overdone, or "above the game graphics". Having realistic explosions in a 2001 game doesnt fit nice, its like having early CGI in movies, it just doesnt fit and doesnt look natural.

So, my opinion on the matter is. Let it be. The effects on il2 arent perfect, but they suit the game nicely to all its standards, and unless a major graphics remake is incoming no need to re-do that.

cheers

[Hunden]

as i tought, i didnt miss much.

all the effects psoted seem to be overdone, or "above the game graphics". Having realistic explosions in a 2001 game doesnt fit nice, its like having early CGI in movies, it just doesnt fit and doesnt look natural.

So, my opinion on the matter is. Let it be. The effects on il2 arent perfect, but they suit the game nicely to all its standards, and unless a major graphics remake is incoming no need to re-do that.

cheers

To each his own but I think the modded effects look much better. You have to look and try to find the right ones for your taste.

[genbrien]

I wouldn't want a big hit to performance either (not everyone can afford a monster rig).

Seriously, we're talking about a 10yo game....
If you cant run it now with acceptable FPS, it wont matter if the smoke impact the FPS or not, you should have low quality settings anyway.

And I'm pretty sure that for 600$ you can run it like a charm, wich is not a monster rig btw :rolleyes:

EDIT: oh.... and +1 for better smoke
when I see the 2d one I'm, like... /puke

[Romanator21]

Oh really? Can I have $600 please?

[vpmedia]

Oh really? Can I have $600 please?

maybe you should get a job or something...

[Romanator21]

Very funny. Maybe you should get a life. :grin:

[Mysticpuma]

Now chaps, lets get away from personal insults, please?

This is now whether someone has a job or money, it's about adding a 'simple' effect to a 2D sprite to make it look like 3D smoke. The FPS hit on any system is really minimal

The problems in the past have come from large columns of smoke on the ground or huge fires, but that is what I am requesting TD experts could look at and overcome, so that at-least we will have a decent (which is already evident and available in MODS) representation of smoke effects as the 2D 'staircase' effect when you fly through trailing smoke, must surely be put to bed now and retired?

Please do not turn this thread into a flame-war, this is for mature discussion regarding a simple 2D sprite, there is no-need to get on anyone's case about their personal funding, thanks, MP

[Le0ne]

Frankly, I'm not so sure I like those effects. I wouldn't want a big hit to performance either (not everyone can afford a monster rig).

Unfortunately, that might be hard to toggle such an effect based on user preference. Some totally new system would have to be developed that is both better looking and well optimized.

I don't know if it's the best use of DT's time, but they've surprised us before ;)

It is almost never the limitation of the rig that decide the effects. First of all it is the gameengine. It iis made for the time pc carryed 256 ram or so. To manage high amount of effects you need to patch your exe up to atleast 512 Ram. And it do help adjusting config.ini textflag settings

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

This is now whether someone has a job or money, it's about adding a 'simple' effect to a 2D sprite to make it look like 3D smoke. The FPS hit on any system is really minimal


I'm taking this from this discussion as a honest request.

And also this:



I don't know if it's the best use of DT's time, but they've surprised us before ;)


Its surely our main problem: manpower!
So we often have to postpone or even quit the considering of such projects.

On the other side I wonder, why there is only a small part in the modding scene, that even care for something, like Mysticpuma askes (compatible and FPS friendly rework, suiteable for also weaker systems).
It would help us a lot, if the thinking wasn't only 'bigger = better'.

[Mysticpuma]

Hello Casper, thanks for the reply and I think you get the point I am trying to make.

Due to the fact that you are making official updates, I appreciate that you have to take into account that not everyone has a fast computer.

The specific request I was asking for was the engine damage smoke and fire that trails after they are hit.

I can also appreciate that those who want big explosions, big smoke, big effects can download Mod packages and that is fair enough.

However getting back to Official updates, as much as I would like to see lots of fire and smoke/explosion effects incorporated, I do understand that once they go through quality control they may have too-much of a hit on performance, which is why Mod packs can be installed and taken out if they don't work for individuals. However as an official update, that is not practical to do and so it needs to work as the removal procedure would mean another patch!

What I am wondering is if the 2D sprite of striped smoke and the 'bubbles' of fire can indeed be swapped out for a low FPS version that gives the much better impression of flying through smoke that is easily visible in most mod packs now?

I wonder if such a mod exists that is FPS friendly, but maybe only affects the plane model smoke and fire, rather than the ground and bomb explosions?

I just hope that this far in there is a chance it can be looked at, as we have had the old striped stair-case effect for so-long now that maybe it could be fixed?

Cheers, MP

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

I really doubt, that there could be a version of i.e. smoke, that looks like in those videos from earlier in this thread and has an equal effect to framerates like the stock one. In fact I beliefe, that it is in any case increasing the needed calculating power by a few times. Why that?

One of the still most FPS-killing things in visual effects is gradient transparency, even worse in combination with Antialiasing and even more worse with overlapping transparent objects. So now look at what we have in stock game: two crossing sprites of gradient transparency (animated too but thats to be taken out of thinking for now) - two pieces overlapping in the worst case.

Now what about those mod versions... many sprites of gradient transparency, allways facing the camera. Seen from side this may be ok, but as soon as you go behind a damaged plane and into a smoke trail, the number of overlapping pieces grows immediatly. Thats why I cannot beliefe, that it can be made equally to stock version, in case of FPS...

However, I am talking about weaker systems... on actual rigs, you probably won't notice the difference. But we can not be so superficial to ignore the 'poor guys'. :)

Lets say, your suggestion is worth of investigation, but probably not suitable.

[CWMV]

Some of the effects posted earlier are the cinematic effects mods by Soccorista over at Ultrapack. Great mods but there are two different series, one for gameplay, and one for movie makers.
The gameplay versions are awesome, and greatly enhance the looks of plutonium efects pack.
The movie maker versions require signifigant work to make look right in gameplay. Add the fuel truck explosion effect, fire up the black death and watch the convoy attack 10 times and the effect will present itself in game 10 different ways, and half just don't look right lol.
But again, they are for movie makers, not gameplay. The gameplay versions are spectacular and run beautifully.

As to plutonium effects, on the two machines Ive run it on it actually improves framerates over the stock effects, on my last machine by more than 10fps when there were a lot of particles being generated. And with the advances made by the mod community in the form of UP3 and DBW the old 2d effects are simply an eyesore.

But that says nothing of TD. They work with the stock game. Why would they revamp the effects when they arent revamping the rest of the game?

[JimmyBlonde]

Romanator21, youre free to do better effects ;)


If all you can do is contribute trite, brainless comebacks like that then you should take up teaching.

The only mod I saw here that was very impressive was the fuel truck effect, the rest didn't even come close to the quality of that effect. I also think Rominator makes a good point in his post.

[DarC]

I really doubt, that there could be a version of i.e. smoke, that looks like in those videos from earlier in this thread and has an equal effect to framerates like the stock one. In fact I beliefe, that it is in any case increasing the needed calculating power by a few times. Why that?

One of the still most FPS-killing things in visual effects is gradient transparency, even worse in combination with Antialiasing and even more worse with overlapping transparent objects. So now look at what we have in stock game: two crossing sprites of gradient transparency (animated too but thats to be taken out of thinking for now) - two pieces overlapping in the worst case.

Now what about those mod versions... many sprites of gradient transparency, allways facing the camera. Seen from side this may be ok, but as soon as you go behind a damaged plane and into a smoke trail, the number of overlapping pieces grows immediatly. Thats why I cannot beliefe, that it can be made equally to stock version, in case of FPS...

However, I am talking about weaker systems... on actual rigs, you probably won't notice the difference. But we can not be so superficial to ignore the 'poor guys'. :)

Lets say, your suggestion is worth of investigation, but probably not suitable.


What about making 3D particle effect an configuration option in graphic settings, something like Landscape [Perfect] option. It could be Particles [Perfect] or something like that. You won't be ignoring so called 'poor guys', and those with better PC could have those eyecandy effects.

(sorry for bad english)

[RegRag1977]

The only mod I saw here that was very impressive was the fuel truck effect, the rest didn't even come close to the quality of that effect. I also think Rominator makes a good point in his post.

+1

[vpmedia]

ok, you better not replace the 2001 effects in 2011 with new ones because he doesnt have the hardware :D

[Mysticpuma]

I wonder if it would be possible to consider the option of adding a switch that could activate 'extra' effects?

Maybe a message like "Activate Extra Effects if you think your PC can handle it".

That way those who would like to see them can switch it on, those who don't (or aren't able to run them) can switch them off?

Almost like the option in the conf.ini "Effects = 1" or "Effects = 2" , how about an conf.ini option of "Effects = 3" for those wanting new effects?

Cheers, MP

[RegRag1977]

@Mysticpuma and Vpmedia,



Make it an option or a line in the conf.ini file would be the best idea so that people can still have a game that can be run on their old system. The other problem that comes to mind is to decide wether the new effects will or won't change tactical situations in game (think better clouds for instance). Smoke would have to be done in a way that it doesn't change the tactical situation (object could be more visible or hidden by smoke, the visible distance at which one can see the smoke etc...) It's not just for cosmetics IMHO

[rollnloop]

origeffects=1 for older rigs, just like typeclouds.

[MaxGunz]

Should gear lower just because of loss of hydraulics? Planes I know of which have hydraulics to move gear also have physical locks when fully up or down. On those the hydraulic pressure does not maintain gear position.

Now if a lock were shot out, that would be different but just for that gear. Come to think, just having one side even begin to open would be nasty.

[Mysticpuma]

Max, I think this is the wrong thread? ;)

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

I'm not aware, how such issue could be solved best - programming wise.
But agree, having new effects (like clouds) as an option would be the best approach, as it wouldn't touch minimum specs.

[Mysticpuma]

I think it's more than a fair compromise as at-least it gives those who want to try new smoke and cloud effects, the option of just switching them on without touching the 'minimum specs' on the box.

Just having an option to enable "Effects=3" would be a great step forward?

Cheers, MP

[Mysticpuma]

Just like to say too, that the amount of times this thread has been read in comparison to others, it appears that this would be of interest to the followers of the IL2:1946 package and updates....crosses fingers and hopes for good news in the future ;)